We cover how the homework from last episode (being teachable) works with a 3.5 year old. Then it's all about creating the conditions for candor and psych safety.

(Transcript Start)



[00:00:00] spk_0: This is Andy and this is Matt and you're listening to

[00:00:03] spk_1: the Hop podcast with no name. What a dumb

[00:00:07] spk_0: names. So stupid.

[00:00:22] spk_1: And we're off, which I can't even help but start an episode like that. And I think that's what I'm going to do every time from now on and we're off, uh a kh hit the record button. But uh welcome back. Episode 13. Lucky number 13 because some of us in this room were born on Friday the 13th.

[00:00:42] spk_0: Some of us were and it was not me, it

[00:00:44] spk_1: was me. So it's always lucky. Number 13. Ok. We, we'll start where we always start. Yes. The last episode's homework.

[00:00:52] spk_0: No, no, no, it's not homework. It is a suggested thing that you could do if you wanted to if you had time to.

[00:01:00] spk_1: That's how I felt about homework in high school as well. So it's homework. So we said the goal of homework, which I'm going to keep naming it, that was to practice being teachable and in doing so we wanted to get, as you like to call it, three questions deep into, I mean, in this case, we're just sort of operation learning, but we're being teachable was, was the message we were using. It was on any subject and any person and I know you did it because you do it in every conversation, which is definitely not frustrating when you're trying to plan something. But what was your, what was your, what was your homework?

[00:01:41] spk_0: Um, I mean, lot, lots of examples but, but maybe the ones that are hardest are actually when I do it with my Children, which I try to actually do a lot of operational learning with my Children. Um There's only one that speaks in full sentences. So maybe I should

[00:02:01] spk_1: just say, you know, you do, you do both,

[00:02:05] spk_0: but penal bee is 3.5. And um obviously, as you're learning as a child, the mental models that they have of how the world works is often very, very different from how an adult would picture things. And so it becomes really important to understand what she's thinking in order to even begin to address a question that she has or a concern that she has because I can't even, I can't assume that I know even what the actual question is because oftentimes the words on the surface are not actually what she's picturing. So,

[00:02:38] spk_1: yeah, because she's a child because she's a very young

[00:02:41] spk_0: child. So she's just, you know, figuring out how things work. Um And so operationally learning to understand her perspective becomes really helpful in figuring out how to help her because have to be able to picture

[00:02:54] spk_1: what she's picturing and we should just reiterate. This is pretty important that if you came here thinking that operation learning and learning teams are the same thing. They're not. So you're not bringing your Children into learning teams.

[00:03:08] spk_0: No, we don't have 5 to 7 people sitting in a room. You're not talking about their shared reality just to be clear. No, no, we're just, uh, I'm just trying to understand her perspective in order to actually be able to define the problems that she is facing, which means that we're facing and so that I can use any amount of my resourcing or information to help her.

[00:03:34] spk_1: So when did you do it? What's the most recent time? He did it because it happens all the time. So when a good recent example

[00:03:42] spk_0: yesterday in the car coming back from her new school, um she said that she didn't have any friends at her new school and, and it was really, it was really sad. So it's her first week actually, her second week at her new school and she went from a very small home day care with five or six to now she's in a classroom type setting with about 20 kids

[00:04:11] spk_1: and, and, and she's 3.5, 3 and a

[00:04:13] spk_0: half. And so she said, mommy, I don't have any friends at my new school, but she did it. I said walk into the club. Um And, but she didn't sound particularly sad when she said it. And so I thought perhaps that my model of what she was saying was different from hers. And so I did some operational learning to figure out what her mental model was. And so I just asked her to teach me what she does when she plays there. Um And sometimes because she is so young, I do have to give her some options, right? She doesn't, oftentimes she says, I don't know because she's waiting for me to tell her an answer to something. I don't know. Um So I'll say, well, do you play by yourself? Do you, do people come talk to you, do you go talk to other people? Um Do you share and it gives her a place to start the conversation and she, she then told me that she shares and I said, ok, well, when you're sharing, um, with someone, are you playing together? Are you not playing together? What does it mean to share? And she said, no, we, we play together and then I asked her like the types of things that she plays and within three or four questions, it turns out that, um, she says she doesn't have friends because she has too many people to choose from and that she doesn't, she hasn't decided who she wants to be her friend yet because that's what

[00:05:43] spk_1: we call a humble brag. I, you know, I just have too many people to choose from. I'm too popular and I have the pick of whatever I want. So, yeah, life's hard

[00:05:55] spk_0: and, and there's so many kids to choose from and so many different activities that people have short attention spans. So she'll be playing with someone and then they'll go to do something else. Um, and so she described what that looks like and so then we help to redefine, you know, what, what friends were and what it meant to have friends and not have friends. And obviously what I started to talk to her about was vastly different than what I would have talked to her about. If I had just left it at. I have no friends. Um because my mental image of what that means was vastly different than

[00:06:28] spk_1: hers. And if you didn't ask, you would just say, oh, well, you, you don't have any friends. Well, why don't you try introducing yourself or going to be more friendly? And that's, that was not the problem too.

[00:06:43] spk_0: She's so cool for school. Um So, yeah, so that was, and obviously it's a little bit different when you're operationally learning with Children than you are with adults, right, in a workplace, because you do have to prompt Children a little bit more in order to give them more of a starting place for a conversation. So you have to make some assumptions and some guesses and then have them sort of fill in the blanks for you. But in terms of trying to get a bunch of questions deep and create a shared mental model. All of that piece, at least to me feels very, very similar.

[00:07:14] spk_1: I like it. And, and just a quick reminder, contrary to what you may have heard in some of your meetings, we're not employing Children. So we're not treated like Children,

[00:07:24] spk_0: right? We are in adult, adult relationships, right? We're not in parent, child relationships. But what's fascinating is even when we're having a conversation with Children, like actual Children in our real lives, we don't have to use the model of the parent and child ego state. For those conversations. You can actually talk to the person um in adult adult ego states in order to try to figure out what's happening. Yeah. So that was my homework. Do I get a grade?

[00:07:53] spk_1: Mm. This is pass fail and I'm actually not going to say, but I will send a letter home to your parents. So they'll, they'll find out. So we're a couple of episodes into the operation learning mini series, which I don't know why it's a mini series because they're basically doing a bunch of miniseries in a row. I think it's just seasons at this point. I don't know. I don't watch enough TV. So we, we talked about wanting to do the episode on psychological safety or conditions for candor or however you like to describe it. Yeah. And then, and then we said, let's just, let's just talk about it rather than, you know, create this big structure and maybe a big narrative of a story. I'm sure we'll have something to talk about, but it's such a crucial element of any operational learning. I mean, any conversation in general, right? But the idea of creating conditions for Canada is something we do and every training that we do and every call we have before training in any learning team that we conduct or operation learning. So, yeah, why, why we just just have a little back and forth about it. Let's just talk about it. It's just,

[00:09:00] spk_0: just feel loosey goosey here, huh? All right. Well, let's just remind people why we're talking about it because there's some elements of operational learning that we wanted to cover. One is what we covered last episode, which is this idea of being teachable. And then in order for us to actually have a really good conversation while we're being teachable, we want to make sure that we have conditions for candor or elements of psychological safety involved, which is what we're going to talk about. Um And then also there's some other pieces that we'll get to at a, at a later date in terms of defining problems and having soak time and making sure that we're learning first and try storming. But, and if

[00:09:34] spk_1: anyone wants to know behind the scenes, what happened today, you came in and you were like, we're doing, defining the problems and you were so ready and you were like, this is how we're going to do it. We're going to do it this way. And then we looked at the list we have of, of what you just listed and we're like, yeah,

[00:09:49] spk_0: we probably have to talk about psychological safety first. Yeah. Yeah. So it is something that we spend a lot of time on. Um you and I even when we're doing uh any meeting or any training, because in order for us to actually be able to speak openly, um we need to be able to create an environment in which people are willing to speak openly. And uh a big piece of doing that just has to be, it has to do with asking those teachable questions that we've already talked about. But also there's other elements when we are trying to operationally learn in a work environment um that we should at least be aware of. Uh one of them is, you know, who's involved in the conversation. So if we're going to do operational learning or a learning team in any location, we're not going to have um somebody who is a direct boss or maybe a boss's boss or a boss's boss's boss involved in the conversation because it's just really hard in that structure um to be open and honest with the person who is sometimes ultimately in charge of the conditions that you're talking about right? Or the system that you are frustrated with. Um We also make sure that when we're taking notes, we don't take private notes. If we have to take notes in a conversation, they're available for everyone to see. Um, we make sure that whatever location we're talking in is comfortable for the people that we are learning from. So we don't pick a location that would be, you know, ultimately something that is not their area or a place where you would go to. If you know, if you, if you had like disciplinary action hearings, we're not going to pick the room in which that type of conversation would be happening in. Um But a, a big piece of it is just uh validating what people are saying, right? Not, not using judgment in how you have the conversation, but spending all your time and energy just trying to understand the other person's perspective. And so I would say that there's elements that allow you to have more open and candid conversation in terms of who's in the room where you're talking, how you're taking notes. Um But those are actually, I would say those are just elements that allow it to be easier to do. But the real bulk of creating conditions for Candor has to do with how you're engaging in the conversation, whether it be in your personal life or whether it be in the work world,

[00:12:13] spk_1: I'm gonna, I'm going to double down on two of those

[00:12:16] spk_0: double down because

[00:12:17] spk_1: it's something you say very often. And the first one is kind of recognizing the role that you're in which almost every time we have a training, you will say, uh because of the nature of your role, you are going to hear X and some of these trainings that we have are with the CEO or the VP of operations. And they have this attitude of like, I just want to be out there. I want to be learning, I want to be asking these questions and when I go, I feel like I get really good answers, like things are going well and you have to stop them like, hey, maybe they are, maybe they aren't but no, no matter what, it's gonna be really hard, not impossible, maybe with the right circumstances in the right context, but really hard for you at the, at a sea level or a VP level to actually hear how they work. Get that true level of candor is being done.

[00:13:10] spk_0: Yeah, we um yeah, we, we often talk to the folks that are when they're very high up in a company that we have to respect the fact that there is an organizational structure, meaning that we have to just make sure we're acknowledging that it is true. And as hard as you try as a senior leader, it is very difficult just because of the nature of your position to allow people to speak to you openly. Now, there are some senior leaders that are incredibly good at it and we've, we've met them, right? And they come across as extremely down to earth genuine people. Um But even in those circumstances, people don't want to disappoint them, right? They even when they're encouraging information to be told that it's like, hey, we know things are not working well here and we would love to hear your perspective and you know, teach me about your world just because of the very nature of their job and their position, it becomes incredibly difficult for those folks to hear the candid truth organizations that do this really well. The senior leaders are aware of this. And so they oftentimes will ask someone else to go help gather some information that would allow them to make really, really good decisions. So that was, that was number one, you said you 22 things that you, that you wanted to double down on

[00:14:27] spk_1: two things because I think that we, you, you use the word validate and I think we often for a long time would use the word empathize. And I think we've, we've actually spent some time reading and talking about this just why they're different and how they can make a difference in the conversation.

[00:14:50] spk_0: Yeah, you want to, I mean, you want to help people know the difference between them.

[00:14:55] spk_1: I mean, empathizing is the equivalent of being able to say I can, hey, I could put myself in your shoes and understand where you're coming from. And validating is saying that what you're saying and where you're coming from is valid. It is a truth. It is not just something that I can imagine, it is true and it changes the narrative and the conversation and we talk about creating conditions for candor or psychological safety. We're talking about validating that, that, that what they're telling us is truth. It is what they're going through.

[00:15:28] spk_0: And, and when we say truth, we don't necessarily mean like ultimate truth, right? Or objective truth. It's, it's just that, that is, that person's truth is what they are, they are dealing with, which I mean, honestly, I use with, with, with my 3.5 year olds, despite the fact that I would not agree with her truth, right? I wouldn't call it anywhere close to what my truth is, but in terms of being able to understand her position and allowing her to continue to talk more, um you know, she'll tell me something like, hey, I can't make friends because I don't, there's too many people and because there's too many people, then I, I can't make any friends. Now, my brain wants to say, well, that's not true. My brain wants to say, um, well, if you have more people, you have lots of different opportunities to have friends, but that would be correcting how she's thinking. And in the moment. If I'm trying to operationally learn, that wouldn't be the move to make. Not that I can't teach her other ways of thinking about the world. And obviously you do that as a parent a lot. But if I'm trying to understand her perspective, I would validate it first. Meaning I would say, oh, so because there's so many people, are you saying that it's hard for you to find friends in those people? Right? I would try to understand and validate her perspective all at the same time.

[00:17:00] spk_1: Yeah. And it's just when I hear validate and empathize, I often think about people might consider it almost like I'm checking a box like if I'm conducting operational learning and someone says, here's what my reality is like and I go great. It sounds like your reality is tough. So why weren't you wearing the fall protection? Like that's not what we're talking

[00:17:21] spk_0: about, which actually we do hear that a lot in training, right? When we're, when we're trying to go through some to allow people to practice operational learning and allow people to practice being teachable and allow people to practice creating conditions for candor. It often feels really weirdly scripted because they're trying to check this box. Even if we're not doing something scripted, right? Even if it's, if it's a attempt at real operational learning because that's a, yeah, that's a really good point

[00:17:49] spk_1: which we, we may have mentioned this. But I, I just want you to cover it and 30 seconds get to it, which is why can't we write a script for this?

[00:18:01] spk_0: Yeah. So we can't write a script for any piece of the operational learning. Um Because we're actually using what the person is teaching us in order to operationally learn, right? So you can't predict what the person is going to say and therefore you cannot predict what questions you're going to ask, you can decide where you want to start. Um But that's about as far as you can go

[00:18:22] spk_1: with it. Yeah. And so connecting the last episodes about being teachable and this one about psychological safety, they really go hand in hand because without psychological safety, the questions that you ask, regardless of, if you're trying to do the right thing, you're going to get probably different answers. If you haven't created an environment where someone can be can. Yeah.

[00:18:40] spk_0: So yeah, and the space of being candid it, it really, although we mentioned some ingredients, right? And we mentioned the role that the person is a lot of somebody's ability to be candid has to do with how you're receiving the information that they're telling you. Um And if you receive it with curiosity and an attempt to understand clarify and validating what they're saying, you are continuously building somebody's ability to talk to you, uh doesn't mean you have to agree with what they're saying and you're not pretending to agree with what somebody's saying you're just trying to mirror back their reality to them and accept it enough to be able to understand the thought process. Homework,

[00:19:34] spk_1: homework. Yeah. That's, I mean, psychological safety and conditioning for canda, whatever term you use it's, there's a lot of elements to it. But, yeah, let's, let's try to practice it

[00:19:44] spk_0: all right. So, practicing it. I mean, I think that most likely what we want to do is pick anything once again, could be personal, could be work related. And you're going to try to be teachable just like we did last week. Except do you want to be teachable it for long enough that you actually learn information that, that might not make you feel good. Meaning if you've really reached a place where people can be candid with you oftentimes the things that you hear, um, are things you wouldn't normally hear. Right. Somebody's either disappointed in something that has happened that you've been involved in or, um, somebody is upset about something that you might have a hand in creating. And so whether we're talking about in our work world or our personal life, you really reached a place of somebody's ability to be candid when you're a little bit hurt by what you've heard. Um, but then the, the trick in that moment in time is to just accept that that's the person's reality and realize it's not about you in that moment. It's about understanding them and

[00:21:01] spk_1: it could be scary. I mean, we hear stories about, you know, people who create these conditions for candor and, you know, they learn something that they thought was an absolute truth isn't so an example was, um, well, I know that my teams always follow lockout tag out procedures and then when they get in these conditions they create for, they ask these questions all of a sudden someone's like, yeah, not on third shift. We don't, we don't do that on third. We don't lock out on third shift. So that's gonna be really hard to hear. It's gonna maybe mess with your, what your vision of reality is, but that means you've done it properly and now you know what's actually happening and you know what it takes to get the work

[00:21:43] spk_0: done. So let's start there. Let's see if we can do that and then we'll give some, some quick tips and tricks the next episode.

[00:21:52] spk_1: Ok. All right. That's it. Thank you for listening. And we'll see you in a couple weeks.

[00:22:05] spk_0: Well, that's

[00:22:07] spk_1: it. Yeah, another one in the books. We did it

[00:22:12] spk_0: if you uh want to send us any of your thoughts, actually fling us any of your thoughts you can do. So at the website www dot hop podcast dot com.

[00:22:24] spk_1: That's Hoppo DC A ST dot com. That's still

[00:22:31] spk_0: such a stupid name.

[00:22:32] spk_1: We look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for listening.