We talk through how we create the conditions for candor while we're working with different organizations. From there, Andy practices some operational learning on what it's like for Matt to book their travel.

(Transcript Start)


[00:00:00] spk_0: This is Andy and this is Matt and you're listening to

[00:00:03] spk_1: the Hop podcast with no name.

[00:00:06] spk_0: What a dumb names. So stupid

[00:00:22] spk_1: off as you raise your eyebrows before I hit the record button. Do it? Say it? Episode 14. Here we are. Wow, what a journey. I can't believe we made it even though we just choose to record these all the time. Um Yeah, so we can get started. Who's ready?

[00:00:47] spk_0: I'm ready.

[00:00:47] spk_1: You're ready. I'm ready. Yeah. And we, we, we start where we always start, which is homework. Yes.

[00:00:54] spk_0: So last time we were here, we talked about making sure that we knew how to create some conditions for candor and the fact that if we do that well, um sometimes what we learn can be either surprising or uncomfortable um because we've actually created a safe enough space for people to tell us the truth, even if that truth might be something that they would avoid normally because they wouldn't want to either hurt our feelings or um put themselves in a position of feeling like we were judging their opinion. And so our homework was to try to ask questions, those teachable questions um, with someone either in our personal life or in the work world until we got to a place where, um, we could learn information that kind of falls into that category of slightly, maybe slightly uncomfortable for us. I mean, you don't, you don't have to go and work be like, well, today I'm going to find something that makes me cry like not, I

[00:01:56] spk_1: created personal candor now or can, can whatever. Uh, And now everyone is telling me they hit my mustache and now I feel bad. That's not what we're talking about.

[00:02:07] spk_0: Which Matthew, can you tell people that about your mustache? Uh

[00:02:12] spk_1: I have a mustache right now. That's what

[00:02:17] spk_0: you didn't before. I mean, you have a new, it's a new mustache. I

[00:02:21] spk_1: didn't buy it. I didn't have one before because I shaved my face and now I didn't in one area and therefore I have a mustache. Yeah, that's how it works. Yeah.

[00:02:32] spk_0: Stop looking like that. OK. So, um for the homework, we actually, we do this a lot, this, this type of creating this open space for conversation and I'm

[00:02:47] spk_1: sure everyone's surprised because the people hosting a podcast about it, do it.

[00:02:53] spk_0: Um But we, the place that we can get to a point sort of pretty quickly that would make us feel a little bit uncomfortable is when we do it after we have given a training. So we will go somewhere or do a virtual training and then inevitably people always ask us how we think it went

[00:03:12] spk_1: and, and these trainings can be anywhere from an hour, two hours to a full day, 6 to 8 hours. And it's with a range of people from usually front line supervisors all the way to the sea suite. So there can be a lot riding on these trainings. And then, yeah,

[00:03:30] spk_0: and, and for some people like meaning a lot writing and the training, like the people that asked us to come in, um it could mean a lot to them that it goes well, right, like for their career, for their job, for

[00:03:41] spk_1: that, they could have cashed in the professional equity. They had to get us in front of a group or something like that.

[00:03:48] spk_0: And so those are the people that would normally come up and say, how do you think it went? And we inevitably will say something like, well, it doesn't really matter much how we think it went. How do you think it went? And I would say almost always, I actually can't think of an exception. I'm sure there is. But usually the first things that people say are just like lovely, nice glowing reviews about me. Um You know, oh, it was, it was, it was fantastic and, and it's always great to hear. But then, you know, that the person is asking the question for a reason, right? They, they approached and said, how do you think it went? For a reason. And so we want to be able to allow people to tell us whatever that reason is. Um, and so that's when we'll do some operational learning and usually we'll say something like, um, yeah. No, I, I really appreciate, appreciate the nice things that you said, but I'm sure that that's not the whole story. I'm sure there's places that, you know, you were a little bit uncomfortable or you weren't sure if it landed with the people that it needed to land with. Um And then you just wait, just like that and people fill in the blanks every time, every single time people fill in the blanks, there's always something that somebody wants to talk about or talk to and it's usually like a specific person that they're concerned about that a specific piece of the discussion, maybe, you know, they think that person didn't quite understand it or that somebody came up to them during a break and had a comment or a concern or a thought. Um And so in that moment, right, uh whatever they're saying is a direct reflection of how we have delivered the conversation. And so it actually can be hard to hear depending upon what they have to say. And we just remind ourselves that it's not about us, it's about

[00:05:36] spk_1: us as you repeat 100 times every

[00:05:38] spk_0: day. It's not about me, it's not about me, it's not about me. Um And so then we listen in the hopes of learning whatever their concerns are. Um, and then if we have time with those folks, which we hope that we have time with them the next day. Um, we try to address whatever those concerns were. So, yeah, that's, um, we kind of do this homework, this piece of being uncomfortable with candid feedback. We, we do it a lot.

[00:06:06] spk_1: Yeah, we, we've almost sort of built it into what we do though. For us it's, we know at the, if we're doing a two day session, at the end of day one, we do want to hear what we missed because we're gonna take it and we're going to tweak day two no matter what. So for us it's every, every time we do more than one day we're like, all right, we're going to hear some tough feedback. Let's go do it. And then we try together, uh, and then we keep making tweaks and sometimes those tweaks or changes stay just for the next day or sometimes they'll impact how we do every training. We go, wow, that's really good feedback. We should think about changing that all the time. Yeah, we, we make those

[00:06:40] spk_0: edits and I think part of the important piece of that feedback process in my mind is that you could easily just stay with the nice parts, right? Like people are more than willing to just say that, you know, you did a fantastic job and you know, it's the best thing since sliced bread and, and if you're not, if you don't want to learn, um, it is completely socially acceptable and actually pretty socially normal to just leave it at that level of learning and walking away and feeling like there's nothing that you need to change, there's nothing you need to work on. There's nothing that you need to do differently. Um, but that doesn't help you be any better at whatever process or task you have some amount of control over.

[00:07:20] spk_1: I think we were out west somewhere and we were with a group and one of the, we were doing operation learning and one of the workers said, um, this is the best place I've ever worked. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's great. And we could have just stopped there. And I think it was, I'm not sure it was one of us. I think it was someone that was in our group was just like, oh, that's really, I'm so happy to hear that. But what would you change? And they, that person had so much to say because there was a lot of things and, and it was that next layer beyond just, oh, wow, this person's happy, let's move on. It's this person's happy and I'm sure they care and I'm sure they actually have thoughts and feelings about ways that still make changes and improvements.

[00:08:03] spk_0: And that's one of the ways that so we mentioned the last episode that we would give like a couple like quick tips and tweaks for how to get to a place of um candor in conversation. And one of the easiest ways is just to um acknowledge, like if you're the person learning, you want to acknowledge that that things are probably not perfect. Right. Right. Right. From the beginning of the conversation. So if somebody is telling you everything's lovely, you accept that and you say you're appreciative of whatever that feedback is, but then you acknowledge that there's, it's probably not lovely all the time, whatever it is, whether it be a, you know, a task or the outcome or the feedback of a process, you say that's fantastic and you do all of the reflective listening that we've talked about, but then the next place you can go to is like, OK, so tell me about the times where it's not exactly like that or tell me about the times where it's been harder than that. Um or tell me about the times where you, you wish it was a little bit different or it didn't, it didn't always respond or act or be the way you just described um by you as the person requesting the information, acknowledging that things are not perfect from the beginning, it makes it a lot easier for somebody to tell you um because they know that you're just not looking for a sort of bad answer as to what's going on

[00:09:24] spk_1: and the follow up questions in that sort of train of thought are great. We talk about them often, which is, tell me more. And one of the things that we use a lot was and what else? There's two ways that you can continue this conversation and get as much sort of critical valuable feedback as possible. All the context of

[00:09:45] spk_0: all the good, the bad and the ugly, all together there it is. Um Yeah, so acknowledging up front that things aren't, aren't perfect. And then when somebody is telling you about things that sound really good, asking them to tell you the flip side of whatever that coin is, those are two pretty easy ways um to allow people to receive or know that you're going to be receptive to, to information, even if it maybe is information that will make you slightly uncomfortable to hear.

[00:10:18] spk_1: Yep. And that's 10 minutes of homework brought to you by Matt and Andy. So now, you know, now, you know

[00:10:24] spk_0: everything there is to know. OK, so let's move on from this idea of Candor and this idea of asking these questions and move on to the idea of being able to describe the problem statements that we learn from this information, right? Because in operational learning, we learn, we do all of this, what we've talked about for the last few episodes in order to be able to articulate the difficulties or the places that need action that we need to do something different to make changes to a system or a process. Um And, and

[00:10:56] spk_1: just to be doubly clear, we are in that stage just learning.

[00:11:01] spk_0: Yes. It's

[00:11:02] spk_1: so natural to be like, oh, this is the, this is what we're learning about and someone just throwing out solutions or we're just learning learning. We've talked to Pascal episodes just about learning

[00:11:13] spk_0: and we just learn, we just, we just, we just, we just learn just we, it's just learning, but it's learning with the ability and intent afterwards to be able to articulate um difficulties or things that we need to change or do or add or adjust. And the art of being able to pick out those things from a messy conversation takes some practice. And so that's actually what we want to practice next. How do you want to do it? Matthew? Well,

[00:11:46] spk_1: we discussed, we're going to make it a little bit more interactive in the sense that

[00:11:51] spk_0: we're, we're going to talk to

[00:11:53] spk_1: each other. No, this is the worst part of my day. So we're gonna, uh we're gonna demon just have a conversation and we're gonna, you're gonna operation, learn from me about um something we do very often and we're going to kind of showcase what that's like with the hope of at the end. We'll give some homework about that conversation

[00:12:16] spk_0: and about picking out those problems. Exactly.

[00:12:18] spk_1: Exactly. So the ask right now is just, listen to this operational learning. And then at the end know that your homework will be around defying the problems and we'll give a little bit more

[00:12:28] spk_0: detail. So you had a great idea of what we should operationally learn about

[00:12:32] spk_1: and it definitely wasn't fueled from deep layers of frustration.

[00:12:37] spk_0: Um Tell us the topic that we will be learning about Matthew.

[00:12:41] spk_1: So the topic we will learn about today is traveling for, for work for, for our, you know, when we go into teaching to train. And typically it happens about once a month, it's usually about a week's worth of travel. And we very, very specific about when we travel because you have two little kids. And so we try to be very smart about when we leave when we get back, how many sleeps you miss,

[00:13:06] spk_0: how many sleeps are we got.

[00:13:07] spk_1: So we're going to talk about what it's like to navigate the constraints that our Andrea Baker Flo in his life, uh, when it comes to travel and how you over, I mean, you've been working with companies for what, like 678 years and you're, you've done, you have a, you have your own system and I come barging in last year, the start of the year and we're making some changes. So I want to talk about

[00:13:32] spk_0: that. Ok. Um, so just a call back to a good way to start an operational learning conversation if you have no idea where to start, it would be something like. Um So Matt, if I wanted to understand about this process of traveling and booking the travel, I don't even know, where would we, where would we start? I don't even know where to start.

[00:13:52] spk_1: You saw me look down at the device we used to record because I was looking for a boo like if I could have someone booing you as you ask that. Um So where should we start? I mean, we, we probably should start from, I guess when we get asked to travel to, when we book travel. Ok. So typically we're scheduling a couple months in advance, someone will ask us, hey, I mean, we're recording this. It's September 21st. Uh, can you come see us in November, December, January? So typically, we know sometime in advance that we're going to go travel somewhere, that's probably a good place to start because once we know, I thought it was ok, someone gives us like a, hey, can you come visit us? Let's use December 1st as an example. And we just book the travel then and you're like, no, no, no, we don't, we don't need to do that. We, we book it, uh, on Thanksgiving over the Turkey. That's when we booked the December 1st travel.

[00:14:50] spk_0: Ok. So we get information from folks that they would like us to go somewhere in person. And then your mental model was that once we figure that out? Right? We just book the travel and then how I suggest we do it is that we wait like, was it till last minute or is it like in the most inconvenient time? Because we're, it's over the turkey? Tell us more about that.

[00:15:11] spk_1: I mean, last minute, right? So it's, it's not, we're not like, let's just show up to the airport with our bags and book the flight while we're there. Uh We typically do it, I would say probably about a week before. Ok, we buy our flights and we buy the

[00:15:24] spk_0: hotel. Yes, and tell me more about, about how that works or doesn't work. Is that a good process? A terrible process somewhere in between? Ok.

[00:15:35] spk_1: It's, it's, I'm so, first of all, I am inherently a if the appointment's at one, I'm there at 12 30 but that's just like how I always am. So I always want to be prepared and be early uh because I'm better than you. So that's where it comes from and, and, and it's so it's not bad because we, we learn, I've learned over the past almost two years, plans change sometimes. So like, yeah, I'm booking it a little later. Sometimes we haven't bought the tickets yet and the training gets moved and that's great. We don't have to do any extra work. So that is good.

[00:16:09] spk_0: Ok, so there's the good aspect of it, of, hey, we learn more information over time and the closer we get to a training, the more solidified the plans get. And so then when we book it, we are booking it with more accurate information. But then there's the flip side of that means what for you?

[00:16:25] spk_1: The flip side is that over, you know, from when they asked us to come two months ago to when we're booking your life has got infinitely more complex and there are so many more things on your calendar that we have to then change our options sometimes for when and how we travel. So if we want, we have like a smaller window to fly out in, we have a smaller window to fly back in. There's like all these things that sort of pop up and we are also conscious that flying in general is changing, commercial flying is changing, flights are being canceled more often or being moved more often. So we're all right. Well, we can't book the last flight out because I mean, we'll, we might never get there if that's and we have all these restraints that pop up and we're trying to navigate them in a very,

[00:17:11] spk_0: in a very ok. So, so what I'm hearing is that although it's making sense for us to do it a little bit later, because we have more information, that also means that we have a knowledge of more constraints, but those constraints themselves make it very difficult for us to actually book the travel. And so some of the things you said are things that have popped up on my calendar as well as like the constraints of the airline of knowing that not every flight is necessarily going to like the last flight of the day might be a dangerous flight for us to take because it might be canceled or delayed for too long. Um Tell me about some of the other constraints that you have

[00:17:48] spk_1: to. There's more of that and this is just out of context, which is we're optimizing for two things at the same time, which is as much time with your kids and at home and making it to our engagement the next day. And it is, it could be a fine line

[00:18:05] spk_0: and also not being so exhausted when we arrive there that we can't function well the next day, right? So you're not pushing it too far in one direction. As

[00:18:12] spk_1: you've said, people want us there for our brains is not functional. We took a red eye, we're gonna need a minute. And how much coffee do you have? That's not a good place to start. So it's that it's that constraint

[00:18:24] spk_0: then? Ok. So we've got competing requirements of spending time with the family and then also the needing to be able to be there and be like in good enough mental condition for us to actually do the job that people have asked us to do. And so what does that mean like to tell us more about how it is to do the booking of things under those constraints because just from the list of them, it sounds like that might not be the easiest of tasks to do.

[00:18:55] spk_1: Well, it's not because it feels like we always have so much to do and booking in theory should only require one person to go on the internet and put in, I know your birthday and your name so I can book us flights. But it's, it's never that easy, right? So we always, we we tend to think like, ok, I'll take, I always say I'll take the flights and travel and then I leave and then I'm like, oh crap, I can't do this by myself. I have to talk to Andrew about 10 different things. So yesterday or two days ago, we booked flights and I called you three times in 10 minutes because I'm trying to wait, what flight should we take? And ok, so if we get here this time, when do we need to leave? Like it just, it becomes so complicated not to mention paying for it, which is a whole other thing.

[00:19:41] spk_0: Ok, so let's get to paying for it for a second. But so, but what I'm hearing is that because the constraints, many of the constraints that we have require me to give you, which of the constraints is most important that even though you've been willing to take on the task of actually physically doing the booking, you can't do it without me because I am the one that's ultimately deciding which of the constraints we should do because is, is it fair to say from what I've heard, most of the constraints that we are talking to are mine and not yours.

[00:20:15] spk_1: I could say that a little differently. You're the problem. Yes, you are the problem. OK,

[00:20:22] spk_0: so, so, so you have very kindly taken on the task of doing the booking of in this complex environment and yet you do not have the autonomy to do it yourself because the constraints that we under are are 99% if not 100% my constraints because of their baker

[00:20:41] spk_1: made constraints because

[00:20:42] spk_0: of the dynamics of my family life.

[00:20:46] spk_1: Yeah. And then to it because they're also my nieces, that's why I tolerate it. But yeah.

[00:20:52] spk_0: OK. And then you mentioned the the paying for a piece that becomes the other. OK. So

[00:20:58] spk_1: to keep it simple, we use your business card, which is not my business card. I don't own that card. I don't carry that card with me, which is, I mean, we're not getting into defining how to solve it, but I'm sure there's a way to fix it. But for now I definitely don't commit fraud, but I do type in your, your, your credit card number a lot um that I've memorized and if anyone wants to text me, I'll give them freely. But uh yeah, So I have to.

[00:21:29] spk_0: So you have no me. So basically you have, you don't have the authority or ability to make the decisions because the constraints are my constraints. And although we have loose rules as to what to do the final decision, you are leaving up to me and then even the paying for a piece of it, you are basically have to use my information to pay for it. So though, although, although you theoretically have this task on your plate, it is a much greater task than it would be time wise and decision wise than if like I just was going to book the travel.

[00:22:06] spk_1: Yeah, but you don't have the bandwidth to do it, right? So if someone needs to do the leg work and then be able to like catch you in the right moment, like, well, here's a question, here's a question. That's, that's the way that our travel planning works. I don't know if that's going to change.

[00:22:23] spk_0: OK. Let's pause here. So hopefully what we just illustrated this is real, by the way, this is a

[00:22:29] spk_1: 100% nothing was fabricated.

[00:22:33] spk_0: And uh and it's real problems that we have to figure out how to address. So we just did, I don't know something like 10 minutes of operational learning. So hopefully you heard the pattern of speech of asking questions in asking questions. I also I know this process, right? Because I am part of this process, but hopefully it was obvious that I wasn't there to judge Matt's understanding of the process or give my own two senses to what the process should or shouldn't be. I was just trying to understand it from his perspective, which it sounds like I am the problem right? Easy for us to have in this conversation because obviously, you know, we spend a lot of time together and it's not super painful for me to hear. Um But in other circumstances, it can be quite

[00:23:16] spk_1: painful to stop recording.

[00:23:20] spk_0: Um So what we're going to do with this, right is that is 10 minutes of operational learning. And if we were doing this about any process, any task, personal life or not personal life, we'd probably do a little bit more operational learning. Um And then we would be seeking to be able to define some of the problems that we are hearing. Now, the problems are not the solutions, right? The problems are just being able to articulate the pain points. Um But also we can articulate things that are going well that we wouldn't want to change. So, um that's what we're going to try out for homework. We want to be able to articulate the things that sound like they are going well that we don't want to change as well as some of the things that um are in this case, probably painful or frustrating. And then when we get back together, we'll go through kind of the ways that we tend to define problems when we operationally learn and some um helpful phrases or thoughts or ways to picture, trying to define the problems so that when you're doing anything like a learning team or any type of operational learning, that part of the process isn't so daunting.

[00:24:29] spk_1: Yeah. And I got to get it all off my chest for everyone to hear. So that was great for me too. Um That's, yeah, I think that's a good place for us to end. So, thank you. We'll talk to you in a couple of weeks. Thanks for listening.

[00:24:49] spk_0: Well, that's it. Yeah,

[00:24:52] spk_1: another one in the books we did it

[00:24:56] spk_0: if you uh want to send us any of your thoughts, actually fling us any of your thoughts you can do. So at the website www dot hop podcast dot com.

[00:25:08] spk_1: That's Hoppo DC A ST dot com.

[00:25:14] spk_0: That's still such a stupid name.

[00:25:16] spk_1: A name we look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for listening.