Transcript might have errors.

[00:00:00] :  Welcome to safety wars for monday october 10th 2022. I hope you're enjoying your last few hours of your three day weekend. If you're in the United States today is columbus day slash indigenous peoples Day the last few years. It's been a little bit of controversy over here, but we don't shy away from controversy. What are we talking about today? We're talking about our regular news. We're gonna forgo the financial stuff since the markets were closed in the United States today. But right now, just to let you know the early markets in AsIA indicate that gold and silver are up. And of course we do not give financial advice and we just state what's going on. But statement analysis after the news, you're gonna say, well, what is statement analysis? It's a method and a technique for detecting deception in people. You're going to say, well, why is that important for a safety professional to detect deception? It's important for all of us to detect deception. We're going to use an example from last night's new york Mets game versus the san Diego Padres where my beloved mets got destroyed. And some of the things that were said over there and as another miracle MRS proposal was listening to an interview and she said, Hey, he said honestly, at the end of his thing. Well, and I said, you know what your that's right. That is an indicator of deception. Often saying the man's deceptive. I'm just saying what it is. North Korea's recent missile tests involved tactical nuclear drills to simulate hitting the south and in south Korea and were overseen personally by kim jong un response to all the other craft that's going on around Korea and the rest of the world kim has made acquiring tactical nukes that is small, lighter and lighter weapons designed for battlefield field use. That's 10 kg ton or lower Usually. That's what that means. However, let's remember the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs for 17, 17 kilotons and 21 kilotons. So this would be much lower. For whatever reason we're discussing this. And you should see those stuff coming over my news feed Now today, uh, it was uh, a picture of a green United States, Green Beret jumping animal plane with a £50 uh, nuclear warhead. So allegedly, I don't know, rare wolves headed to south Carolina from Ohio as fight to prevent extinction. Ram stuff. Sometime in the spring, visitors to south Carolina nature preserve make any glimpse of one of the world's rarest animals. And that is the red red wolf. There's roughly about 300 of them. Uh, 300 of them in existence and they're being bred in captivity and released into the wild. I don't know. Um, I have an interview with don Becker coming up, uh, that I did over the weekend on some really important insurance stuff. I wonder how she feels about this is in her neighborhood. The plan is to breed red wolves in captivity for display at zoos for a release in eastern north Carolina, possibly low country of south Carolina, Residents of a small community in Vermont were blindsided last month by news that one official and their water department choir quietly lowered fluoride levels nearly four years ago. Giving rise to worry about their Children's dental health and transparent government and highly lighting the enduring misinformation around water Fluoridation. Well, I don't know, we had a whole Tv series on water Fluoridation. What was it? Uh I was with? Oh schemes to my mind. Oh, firefly, that's what it was. So I don't know there's a lot of misinformation or information and all different things. What's your opinion on? I don't know, drop the slide gym mats, safety words dot com. So this happened uh something uh happened this week where her dentist found cavities in her kids teeth and she acknowledged to get a lot of sugar. But notice on her dentist recommended against fluoride because of the town's water because it should be during all those fluoride, horrible fluoride treatments I remember. But anyway, it's been very controversial since the 1950s. Emergency scenarios are being prepared in Sweden in the case of power cuts. So with all the other stuff going on with the war in the Ukraine which in Ukraine which has been escalated in the last couple of days. Now we have another situation where now the governments are acknowledging holy goof. You know, we might have a power outage power shortage. Energy shortage. Some of the other countries like Germany Northern Italy right? Or Italy or Northern parts of Northern Italy Italy Switzerland. They're all freaking out because they're worried about not having enough uh energy for heating their homes. I came across a new psychological term that I've heard of over the weekend and it's called temporal disintegration. So that that's sort of like, didn't you ever hear the expression, I don't know what day it is, what day is it? And I find myself as I get older, what day is it all the days seem to be running together? And if you're on a six or seven day a week schedule, like most people in the safety industry, you start to lose track of a day or an hour or I had a business for, took lost track of years. And this has been exacerbated by the uh pandemic and now and this is all documented in august paper for the Journal of psychological trauma by a dr Hallman and co authors and they asked a series of questions of 5500 plus people as to what extent even focused on the present moment. Right, 76%. They had felt that way, sometimes felt unsure about what time or day it was 46% and found for your and found themselves forgetting what just happened or feeling unclear about the order events that they just experienced Us Department of Labor, OSHA ordered an oil company, I'm not gonna mention the name to immediately reinstate to employees and pay them more than 800,000 back wages interests and compensatory damages. A federal whistleblower investigation found that the company terminate them illegally after suspecting them of leaking information to the Wall Street Journal. In september 2020 the Wall Street Journal alleged the Global Oil and Gas company may have inflated production estimates the reported value of oil and gas wells in the texas Herman um basin, the newspaper reported this company assume that drilling speed would increase substantially in the next five years and that assumption may have been inaccurate. These assumptions are included in company filings with the U. S. Securities and Exchange Commission 2019. OSHA's investigation found that the oil company fired to computational scientists who raised concerns about the company's use of assumptions. In late 2020 the company claimed and terminated one of those the scientists for mishandling proprietary information. The second for having a negative attitude looking for other jobs and losing confidence of company management. OSHA learned that this company knew that one of the scientists was a relative of a source quoted in the Wall Street Journal and had access to the leaked information. Now here is the main point of the OSHA story. The investigation determined that the communication with the news favor related to alleged company violations is protected activity under the Sarbanes Oxley Act. The act also protects the scientists, despite X. Despite the oil company's belief that they had I almost screwed up their belief that they had access and possibly leaked information to the publication. Neither was revealed as a source for the article. The oil company's actions are unacceptable. The integrity of the U. S. Financial system relies on companies report their financial condition and assets accurately said Assistant Secretary for occupational Safety and Health Doug parker whistleblower protection is integral to ensuring that financial disclosure laws work. As was the case for this instance, OSHA will aggressively protect the rights of employees to raise concerns related to financial improprieties or potential fraud against shareholders. End quote and OSHA. So here's something I did not know. Alright until recently, it was covered on another podcast, The Ocean 30 30 podcast. Not on safety FM. But it's actually a really good show. So, OSHA, for whatever reason, I don't know how this really evolved, but OSHA is able to uh manages whistleblower complaints to and you can look at this stuff on their website. Right, whistleblowers dot gov. And there's a big long thing. What does OSHA cover? Occupational Safety Health Administration Director directorate of whistleblower protection programs. I'm going to read some of the things some things are obvious that OSHA would probably be involved in, but some of them are not so obvious. Section 11 C of the occupational Safety and Health Act. Okay, we get that asbestos hazard Emergency Response. Okay, International, Safe container act. They're in charge of um whistleblower with that service Transportation assistance act, safe drinking water act, Federal water pollution control act, toxic substances control act. Solid waste disposal act, Clean Air Act, circular Energy reorganization act. That was in 1974 dealing with the nuclear industry. Wow, Wendell H four Aviation Investment and Reform Act. Sarbanes Oxley, another company bank, which just got whacked by OSHA with that to millions of dollars. Right? And that's deals with. Uh, and this is the one with this story for text employees of certain companies from retaliation for reporting alleged male wire bank and were securities fraud violations in the sec rules and regulations or violations of federal laws related to fraud against shareholders so that according to OSHA at least is deals with stuff. You can mention it to your boss, you say your boss. Hey, I don't think what you're doing right while you're fired. Well, gets one now. Uh, they're covered under whistleblower acts according to OSHA pipeline Security improvement act. Railroad Safety Act. National Transit Citizen Security at Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act, Affordable Care Act. Wow Seaman's Protection Act. That semen as an S. C. A. M. A. N. Protection Act. Consumer Financial Protection Act, FDA Food Safety modernization. Moving ahead for progress in the 21st century act. A taxpayer First act, Criminal antitrust and serenity Evaluation act, Anti lawn, uh, money laundering act. So those are all of the things that OSHA actually gets involved with with whistleblowers who knew I didn't know that. So if I were a OSHA 10 hour outreach trainer, I would probably go and include those handouts in the our number one because right there, if you want, if you're having problems covering stuff for our, one of the OSHA outreach programs like that, so you can cover that would probably take up 35 minutes right there. You'd probably be in violation of everything. But uh, you know, you can talk about that for 35 minutes. Who knew? I didn't know and we're going to take a break right now in the professional safety community communication and planning are just a few keys to your program success. The question many practitioners have is where do I start dr j Allen, the creator of the safety FM platform and host of the rated R safety show has built a global foundation to help you along the away go to safety FM dot com and listen to some of the industry's best and most involved professionals, including Blaine Hoffman with the safety pro sam Goodman with the Hop nerd Sheldon Primus with the safety consultant Jim proposal with Safety Wars, Emily L Rod with unapologetically bold and many others. As individuals, we can do great things. But as a team, we become amazing, dial into safety FM dot com today and surround yourself with a powerful force of knowledge and support. You are listening to safety wars tomorrow's safety today. Okay, so, uh I'm gonna be using a lot of different sources, some liberals, some conservatives, some neutral. And I'm not going to give you my opinion on a lot of this stuff. But I think most people who know me know my opinion on this stuff. This is an article from Spectator dot org and I'm gonna briefly comment on this the and the title of the, it's an article by first pandemic than the purge by Debra J Saunders. And I'm not gonna go into the whole thing. But this is the whole gist of the article. Zach Lowe's Coast Guard aviation survival technician, a real hero that to lose his job because he won't betray his deeply held beliefs. Essentially. This is a coast Guardsman. I don't know what the appropriate term is. Uh, Who is being drummed out of the service because he refuses to get a COVID-19 vaccination in violation of the September 2021 executive order issued by biden. And let's remember that Biden had said that the pandemic is over two weekends ago. I don't know we're getting a lot of and now this is a mention in the article, but there's been a lot of talk uh in peer reviewed journals over the last month or so on. The efficacy of the vaccinations. So I don't know, I think the government needs to reexamine this and have a more consistent policy. We had discussed this several times over the last three weeks and before that on the Safety awards podcast on all of this stuff with the efficacy of the vaccinations and clear communications. So I think this will probably be a very good time for the C. D. C. And others to talk about. Clearly now get on the same page here guys, that's what I hold. I'm gonna say on this in pennsylvania this year and this is, I can see this in the future becoming especially depending on the way that the elections run a major issue. So we all know that OSHA, the occupational safety and Health administration does not regulate a lot of work places, one of them being farm labor. If it's in your same family, if you don't have employees, right? And family members are usually, I'm not gonna say make a blanket statement say all all as I'm trying to teach my son and my daughter all is one of the most dangerous words in the human language. You don't ever want to say all but OSHA does not cover all workplaces. Right? So just so if you're a farm, a family of the owners of farm, nobody there is considered an employee. Therefore, OSHA does not have jurisdiction. Same thing. If you're self employed or if you are a government employee, OSHA has no jurisdiction. They may have some say and say well don't do that. And I've seen some stuff. Well hey, I had this been covered by oceans be like $100,000 in fines blah blah blah. And a lot of this is delegated to other government agencies. The Army Corps of Engineers on Army Corps of Engineers project cm 3 85 1-1 is their safety standard as well as uh, out here in the northeast we have new york pesh, we have P OSHA, which is New Jersey and various state agencies that cover public health, public employees. Unfortunately everyone knows my opinion with the You've Aldi massacre. Uh, earlier this year, essentially if schools were covered under OSHA, I think that there would be a much better chance of us protecting the schools and therefore protecting the students as an externality to protecting the teachers and the other workforce. But oh, well, that's neither here nor there. Now. This is a story out of from last month and this is a very sad story. We have Amish man and sons killed after being trapped in a silo on a center county farm. This is not a center county California. Center county pennsylvania where three family members dying in a farming accident and they were trapped inside of a silo presumably film filled with silage. And this was six months after a 16 year old boy was killed while operating a manure spreader at the farm and everyone's death was ruled accidental and therefore, uh, you know, uh, nobody's responsible, right? The family members reportedly died from asphyxiation two gasses in the silo. Their debts have been ruled accidental Neighbours say was a ripple effect with one going into help the next. So let's remember 60% of confined space. Century fatalities are reportedly from people would be rescuers. There really is no excuse for this at this point. I'm sorry. None. All right, Permit required, uh, permit required confined space hazards have been known since at least the 1950s. How do I know? My mother told me a story. My father told me a story of someone that they knew in the 1950s. That was in Bayonne, New Jersey. Reportuallyly, I'm not, I don't have all the details. And they entered into a sewer and they got killed in the sewer from the sewer gas in the 1950s. Uh, there have been a number of injuries for this all the time. This goes on. Whether it's confined to the century excavation, uh, excavations, trenching excavation, all this stuff goes on all the time. I really don't get it. You know, I don't get it where they covered by ocean. No, But I'm going to tell you, we have an interview coming up from the head of the libertarian party for New Jersey. Dan. Krauss. Yes, dan. I am going over this and I was waiting for the right time to release the interview. Now is a good a time as any with the way things are going on and we only scream and yell what we needed. Osho! We need this. We need that. But the truth of the matter is is that we all run our lives like libertarians? Yeah, we do. Because the libertarian view of workplace safety is everybody working together in a workplace together to make the workplace safer. And that's basically it. And we do that. Now, if that's how you want to run a no, there's a debate and we understand an honest debate between what role does government play with that. But we all basically run our lives as libertarians. We want to be left out lads. Right? Howard Beale most famously said, All we wanna know is one is to be left alone. And now that we have good steel belted radials and you can go and uh, you know, look who Howard Beale is, I'll give you a hint. I'm mad as hell. I'm not gonna take it anymore. Statement analysis. We're going to go into that in a minute. We're gonna come back with that. Safety wars are streaming Now your safety trainer still teaching a warped version of behavior based safety. How about safety training that actually addresses your hazards in your workplace is and it's not standardized bologna from 25 years ago. Contact the safety wards team at safety words dot com or call jim postal at eight for 5 to 69577. To remember if you're receiving this message, you are the solution to unsafe workplaces and now on to our main story here. Statement analysis for the safety manager. What is statement analysis. It's real simple statement analysis. And I came across this on a radio show many years ago was interviewed by a man named Mark MacLeish and then later on Peter Hyatt. A couple of years later, Markle a clich came out with a book. I know you are lying and Peter Hyatt, why is there's a certain gentle as a death dealing with deception? These men are both lifelong investigators. Mark MacLeish specifically taught these techniques that the National Law Enforcement Academy and it's what many police I think mostly send federal agencies use, including OSHA Peter Hyatt does private consulting similar to what we do here on safety FM. And all the individuals here. And let me preface this is saying this is a little bit controversial. You don't want to always use these techniques because they could be adversarial at the end of this. You may not ever want to talk to an investigator ever again. And this is also to the way I use it is to make yourself a little bit more believable. Let me say one other thing, if you don't want to be lied to, then don't go into this business safety business. You're going to be lied to all over the place. So what is statement analysis? What you're doing is analyzing the words, syntax, body language and handwriting determine whether we're being told the truth the whole story. A deceptive story. And it lays out a system of analyzing this stuff and the assumption that all of this is everything was statement analysis is that everybody wants to tell the truth. It's you. Now it's like this. I've had problems for years when I would talk to people and speak to people because I like to talk in case you haven't noticed that I'm on the radio. But anyway, I had this problem where people don't believe you, You could be telling the truth 100% of the time and then they don't believe you because of what you say and how you say it and the same thing applies to them. They may know that when we're talking deception, there may be deception. We're not talking about that. People are lying, right? Even though the, you know the name of the book, I know you're lying, Michael Kalish. He has several others and this these are two of the most popular and most well known purveyors of this way of thinking in this line of questioning. But there are many mothers are others. One of my saying this Monday night Avenue and Sapir is another one. And basically you're you're able to determine uh, determine whether something's deceptive or not. So my wife who listened, who listens to this right? We were watching that hellish game last night when the new york Madison and san Diego Padres and joe Musgrove was checked for uh substance on his ears or something like that. And uh buck. Showalter from the mets manager came out and said, hey, check that guy, blah, blah blah. And it's part of this is to break his rhythm in the pitching, right. That's part of the strategy is when you pull this stuff. But here it said here. But look at what he said and it's I'm having a problem finding the interview. But I recorded it so in response to the interviewer, he was checking me. He said there was nothing on me, honestly. And then he was cut off by the interviewer with the next question. Guess what? Honestly could is a qualifier that might indicate deception. All right. We'll get into some of that here in a minute. Why is it relevant? When do we use statement analysis? When do I use it? Pretty much all the time? Uh, basically be careful what you say. We're trying to identify red flags, especially in an accident investigation or incident investigation and we're, while you're using against the workers, I'm not using against the workers. I, you know, we have to do our due diligence and we have to make a judgment who's telling the truth on this and who's believable? Who's not believable. And it can also be the, uh, people not involved in the accident management, mid level management for men that are using this stuff. So maybe it's not the worker himself or herself that is being deceptive. But maybe someone in the chain of command? And the other thing is when you're presenting, are you believable or not? Presumably you want to be believable because if you're believable, you're going to get more money, you're gonna be more reliable or you're gonna get fired and probably guess what? If you don't want to work with people that are, uh, that are piste off that you're honest, right? You don't want to Really? That's the hellish thing. So what's the main thing? Stop talking and start listening. Right. So what applies to verbal communication applies also to written? So number one listen to the language. What are they saying? How do they speak? This is why are you trying to go in the beginning of the investigation? Hey, hey, frank, how you doing? I'm jimmy puzzle, blah, blah, blah. Hey, you see that mets game last night? Oh yeah. Oh man. They got their asses kicked. Okay, great. See that giant scheme. Oh yeah, they did phenomenal over in London and you start talking to the guy a little bit of small talk. So you're older person. Okay. See what their mannerisms are. See whatever they're trying to do, number two you wanna be and then you can compare it to the actual answers and their mannerisms later on, But where of lengthy responses? Because lengthy responses or deception. Do they answer the questions? Words mean things that's from a famous radio talk show host used to say the words mean things, examine the pronouns, right? What do we mean? I mean, mine, myself, she her hers herself. We us ours and ourselves, for example. What are the order of events? Do the order events make sense? And words and phrases that might indicate deception? So you're doing an investigation. What do you want to do? You want to have open ended questions as much as possible if you ask a yes or no question, because sometimes you have to ask a yes or no question. Do they add more? When a simple yes or no would suffice? Yeah, no. Yes, but all that goes on. What are they not telling you? Often? The deception is not what they tell you, but what they're not telling you. So what do you do? Don't you know, this is guilty of me. Do not speak over people. Let them answer. Be aware of warning phrases. I'm warning phrases to be honest. Like joe Musgrove last night right now. Do I think that he was lying? I don't think he was lying. I don't think he was telling the truth. But when you put honestly in there now he was undermining himself after that interview. When answering questions, use the shortest answer possible. What details are they telling or not telling you? If this all sounds familiar, This is when an attorney will tell you before you do a deposition. We'll tell you exactly. That's we're talking to a government agency. Reliable denial. What's reliable denial? I got into this last week. We ran into this on the job where we were doing an accident investigation and we did not get a reliable denial. What is a reliable denial? I did or did not do something. So, if you did not do something, you say I did not do something or you did something. I did do something. Right. And that's reliable. Anything after that, right. Anything after that indicates some type of deception may not be reliable. And that's how it's going to be viewed by a lot of investigators. So if someone asked you, did you wear your hard hat? Yeah, I wore the howard hat. I did wear the hard hat. Yes, real short. What? Now? Let's look at what denial means denied to state that one. When there's one definition. The refuses to admit the truth or existence of that is a dictionary definition. So deny does not mean no. What's no. Not any. Not at all. To no extent. So if you deny it's less than a no, essentially. And that's how investigators are often going to take that. Right. Did they answer the question, What are now, what's the question for example, Did you use those gloves? That would be a safety, especially with a hand injury. Did you use those gloves? Well, do they say yes, I use those gloves or no. I didn't use those gloves or how about this one? Why would I use those gloves? I would never use those gloves. Of course, I'm using those gloves, blah blah blah. That might indicate deception? You may want to investigate that a little bit more answering a question with a question. Was your backup alarm working? Was my backup alarm working? Why wouldn't it be? Of course was working. It always works repeating question. And the answer is a common stalling tactic. So you have to put your now put up those little uh antenna of yours. Were you wearing fall protection? I always wear fall protection. Always means at all times and all occasions. Well, what you want to know is was it done this time? Are they assuming it was done this time? Because it was done all the other times? Well, he always wears okay, great. He always wears. That's admirable. Well, did was he wearing it this time? Because that would indicate that you may not be in the S you know what the S. K. R. And performance modes and everything else? S KR performance modes under Rasmussen. That might indicate that you're what performance mode were they in once? It's just an error where one time they forgot to put on something or all the time. Was the one time that they forgot a procedure or all the time. Was this a normal occurrence? That this is the way it worked was always done right and it wasn't done this time. That's got to be in there words mean things. So everybody has an internal dictionary and you need to pay attention. What are we calling things. Does an excavator for example, ever become a machine in this story? Does a car become an automobile? Hmm. That may, that may happen. Do we change what we're calling something in other words? Does my car become the car? You need to examine the pronouns because pronouns indicate some type of possession. We us, they were there or hours and became more than one person is involved or familiar with something. Right? We are they using these rather than I. So you'll be interviewing somebody well, you know, and there's and all along, you may hear only one person was involved. No one saw Jack, you've no right. No one, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And then they started going to the story, Oh yeah, we were walking towards this. We were doing something. We hold on, hold on. Unless you're dealing with bob dole. Right. We will always talked about himself in third person. Was there more than one person involved? Hold on. I thought you said I, no, no, no. He's so we, this. Um, and what happens And then this actually happened. Okay. My cousin, I was actually teaching this, uh, for one of my customers and he noticed my vehicle outside the office and he said, hey, I, hey, my cousin jimmy is in there and it was everybody knew knew each other in a small town. Everybody knows each other well, let's run as a smell downtown Bayonne, New Jersey and he happened to come in and say, hey, come on in la la la. This is my cousin, blah blah blah. And it was right before christmas, a merry christmas and hey, blah blah blah. And he said, I said okay, you know, I got to get back to work, I'm teaching a class and you're willing to sit in, you know, for a couple of minutes, he said, oh yeah, I'm going shopping with the wife. Listen, hold on time out. Ernie, you're staying here. And so I said okay. He said, well what do you mean? Sit right down there. I pulled up this slide that I'm reading right now and I say to him, what dinner, what did he just say? What did he say? I'm going shopping with the wife And it was perfect. So that indicates distance and you're not as close that you don't want to go shopping with your wife because if you wanted to go shopping with your wife, it would be, I'm going shopping with my wife. That indicates you want to go shopping. This may sound like a word game, but this is very important. I want, you know, I, I went shopping or I'm going shopping with my wife versus I went shopping with the wife. Not a good issue, not a good thing. And this is where a lot of times investigators, especially missing persons cases where domestic violence case will do an investigation. This is how they get the abusers or murderers and a lot of cases. Unfortunately with statements like this about a week after I presented this, I received an accident report from one of my employees and she says to me jimmy look at this Axon report, what do you think? And she had? And this is where the advantage of is when you uh of having the person right after own witness statements not writing for them. A lot of companies, they write out witness statements. They have a foreman right out a witness statement. Real bad idea have them right out there with this statement because she handed me something and was a missing words instead of I grabbed the tool, grabbed a tool instead of I got the ladder was grabbed, got the ladder. And this is how this all was written down where they were uh they didn't take responsibility for anything. Nothing was linking them in their language to the accident. And I said, you know, this might indicate some kind of deception here. Maybe we should go and look and before you know it, about two days later the whole story came out because I kept on, there's a well jimmy where's the report? Read an issue report because we think that we're getting deception based on this. This is really, it was like, yeah, really? And then two days later we found out that they were that everything was a lie that they wrote. What is the order of the story. This is an important thing. A story has a beginning, a middle and end. And what is the sequence of what you're saying? R is the person skipping steps? Are they describing things out of order? Do the times add up. So there is an accident investigator that I work with. He'll ask questions out of sequence to try to get people to screw up in this and indicate that there is a problem that they are deceiving people. So it could go both ways. Here's some definite red flags, honest to God. To be honest, honestly, to tell the truth truthfully. I swear to God, I swear on my mother's grave. And the number three. So my friend joe was doing a accident investigation. He calls me up a couple of weeks today. Jimmy. What's your opinion on this one? And you can call me two at 845 to 695772 were at jim at safety worth. Hey, jim. What do you uh what do you think about this one? And I said to him, sounds like some deception going on here says, yeah, there's nothing adds up what this guy says. And what was the reception? He fell down three stairs and he broke three ribs. Hold on double three. We have a bias in Western society for the number three. Right? So if someone says three somewhere in the story, then You better make sure damn sure it's three because we have, let's consider, I'll just name a few father son and holy spirit. Three blind mice. Three furnitures of government. Uh, right. Uh, those are just three. But there are many other three musketeers. 33333 always comes up. So someone says three. Better make sure it's three because that can indicate deception. Writing things down on an accident form. Whenever I'm filling one out, I always have my own legal pad and a pencil because what are they looking for? They're looking for cross outs. So I'll write the rough draft down on a piece of favor and I'll transcribe it permanently over there. If I have to fill out an accident report myself and they're requiring that being done. Uh, here's some other unnecessary words. Do you know what happened? I had the accent. Right. That's a good open ended statement. Are they giving you a yes or no answer or they give you a lengthy, lengthy? If you hear what really happened was this really indicates a deception and its qualifier qualifiers indicate some type of deception. Other qualifiers not not this is not a whole list actually very quite rather somewhat more most Leslie's too. So just enough indeed. Still almost fairly, really pretty even a bit a little whole lot. A good deal a great deal and kind of sort of how about phrases that don't make sense. Right immediately after an incident, someone might say, my foot hurts or I am in pain. They say, well, hey, when you drop a weight on your front, of course it hurts, sign a deception because they're depersonalizing it, unless they're talking about this type of situation, like way after it happened. What's the story breaking down every story has a beginning a middle and an end, If possible, have the person write down their own statements. So what, how does this break down the beginning of the story? Should be about 25%,, roughly on and off. Right, roughly about 25% in the middle of the story. About 50%. And the end of the story about 25% any major deviation may indicate deception. Now, I, well, right, and before I talk, I looked up some other sources outside of Mark MacLeish and the other guy, right? That that did this and that, uh, right, Mark MacLeish and who was the other guy? Hold on, I'll get his name, Mike MacLeish and Peter Hyatt. And this was verified. So you write it down a story, right, make sure that it's 25 50 25 or thereabouts, any major thing may indicate. And they're going to go deeper. And also, when you're writing it as something, make sure that you're roughly in that ballpark there and then you have the nonverbal communication, I'm not even to go into that with this discussion because there's about a million and one uh books out there on body language and I don't know what to think about it. I have a lot of jerky movements and things of that nature that I'm normal. Right? And if you've seen my camera that may indicate I can see where that people may say well look things not telling the truth or he's full of GUv. No. There was one case I had up in upstate new york where somebody fell through a skylight. It's a little bit more complicated than that. But they fell through a skylight and the investigator came out there from the insurance company and based on what I had said here. And I assumed that it had to do partly with uh my body language and stuff because I'm very expressive person. Anyway he did not pull me and he said everything that man said is a lie. And that's basically what he told the client because he had asked me a whole bunch of questions. Well so the sky fell through a skylight. I got called in on the accident investigation because I had trained all of these guys and fall protection. And the guy says to me, did these people receive fall protection? Yeah they received fall production, can you prove jimmy that they were calling me jimmy can you prove mr pole So that they actually had you know safety training. I said you know what I got called up here, I don't have my I even forgot my computer here. You know, I walked out without my computer here. And I'm no because it was such an emergency. And that sound in the car I could get I might be able to look it up on there and send it on over to you. Oh you better. Alright. Uh Did they get the right equipment? What kind of Yeah, they got all the right equipment. We got all the stuff back at the office. Absolutely. Uh Did they? Uh uh How long has this guy been on the job as well? This particular guy on the job about 2 2.5 weeks roughly. Uh And he kept on going on and on and on and we had everything done and what were we able to do? We were able to get away. Pretty much. OSHA came out to do the investigation. Found nothing wrong with our program. What they did find was some other stuff that uh we had really nothing to do with that wasn't even our purview that caused this accident. So this guy, I sit down with the client and the guy said, you know this guy lied said that. You lied about everything I said. Yeah, probably. And he said, well do you actually have documentation to back up everything you said? I said. Yeah. As a matter of fact I do. And here it is. I know it was after like a day or two later I handed him a stack of all the sign in sheets the tests and hell we even had pictures of people taking training including the person who fell taking training and everything else. And he said, wow. I said yeah, we had it. He said you weren't telling the truth. I said yeah, I was telling the truth. Well, why didn't he say so? Probably because of the way I am. No, I express myself. I'm very active. I can't sit still. That's me. I said you've known me for years. He said jimmy, that is you but you were telling the truth the whole time. So you're full of sh it. And I said, well, I don't know. I I guess the next time I see him I'm gonna have to say something about him to him. So here's some summaries, items here, right, witnesses, witnesses should be writing their own statements in their own words, take good notes to record when doing verbal interviews. Some with some major accidents may want to video record everything. This is a major pitfall here. If using an interpreter or translator, pay close attention to their words, hire a professional accident, investigator, private investigator or lawyer for a catastrophic situation, catastrophic situation. You want to really rely on a regular safety professional. What I try to do is I work through an attorney and everything goes to can't be in my understanding that an attorney, I'm not an attorney is that you want to go with an outside counsel and make all your reports to outside counsel because then it's covered by attorney client privilege. Right? So always hire professional. One of the worst things that you can ever find out or ever go through is if you have a employee, especially if they're going to be a relatively new health and safety professional and they give you the one page uh, OSHA, I think it's a 301 accident investigation report with uh and that's all they give. Now have I used these reports for acts investigators certainly. And since that's what the regulation requires, I give it, I give them the regulation what's required under OSHA. Let them do their own investigation. This is what we're required to do. This is what we're gonna do. Uh that sometimes happens. But where what you don't want is for someone to just have that little accident report the ocean 301 uh report. I might be wrong on the number. But I think I'm right. And just have them do an accident report. That does that form does not cover all the bases so to speak. And what you want is a professional one done a one pager. No, if that's the first aid case that's one thing or a straightforward OSHA. Recordable laceration, broken bone. Even that may be okay. Uh, but anything major, you need to go and go to the full run. I had a client a couple of years back say, well we wanted a one page Jackson report. I said, if you're looking for a one page accent report, I'm not your man, you're gonna have to get somebody else. And they said, well, what do you mean? I said, well I'm, when I do an accident investigation is going to be an accident investigation, what you do with it is something else you want to shelve it. I can't do anything about it. And I'm gonna do a real active investigation. I said, I would suggest you do the same thing because at the, at the beginning investigation was unclear whether the employee was going to return and they said, oh really? Yeah, Oh really? And that's something you need to be aware of. And let's sum this up here. Right? Realize the words mean things follow the 50 25 50. I'm certainly 25 50 25 rule the beginning, the middle and the end of the story. Answer any questions that are asked. If you could give yes or no, give, yes or no, stick with the facts of the case. Just like the joe friday from uh dragnet. You say the facts. Just the facts. Use the same tenses for verbs. This is where we didn't go into this one. This is where they get a lot of missing Children when they find out that the parent is the one that did the thing. Uh, did the actors involved because then they said, well, we had a wonderful daughter rather than our daughter is wonderful. Right. Big difference. Use consistent language. If something is called a machine, keep calling on the machine. Don't call it an excavator or something else and go yes or no. Don't talk too much like I do on this podcast or this program. I should say that's what I got here. And I just wanted to uh, go into uh, what we're trying to do. We're so what we're still getting organized there were still getting finding our groove and a lot of stuff. So every friday we're going to do fall protection friday. That's what the plan is. And we're going to start like right biological Wednesday where we're going to talk about biological hazards with the pandemic things of that nature. And we're trying to find our groove here with this. And uh, I want to thank everybody for staying with us for the last three weeks. Uh, not every one of these is uploaded to our podcast network, but uh, most of them are and we're going to close out now. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast. J Allen, Good night. Everybody from the safety FM Network.