Join us on this episode of Property Investory where we learn about Pilkington’s childhood growing up in the north of Sydney, how her parents inspired her to pursue a career in real estate, her various roles that led her to where she is today, and so much more!

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[00:25:25] I never saw myself as a leader. And so I rang all of my franchise owners and said, 'Look, this is what's happened'. And they were overwhelmingly excited about it. And I kind of rang all of them, got off the phone and thought, 'That's weird. Why am I so happy? I don't think I can do this. Why do they think I can?’

 

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

 

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with the managing director of Laing and Simmons and president of the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales, Leanne Pilkington. We’ll follow her journey from the Northern Beaches of Sydney, working for her parents, to becoming an empowering and inspiring female role model in real estate and for women everywhere.

 

 

Pilkington has always been determined to smash the glass ceiling, and in her decades in real estate she has done just that. This is who she has become.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:00:24] I'm the managing director of the franchise organisation Laing and Simmons where I've been for 25 years. I'm also the current president of the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales. And I sit on the board of the Real Estate Institute of Australia. And I am also the co-founder of a networking group called Real Women in Real Estate, which is just about supporting women in and around property.

Tyrone Shum:  

With so many titles under her belt and jobs on her hands, Pilkington leads a busy life. She shares with us what she typically does on an average day.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:01:06] Laing and Simmons has 45 offices in and around New South Wales. Because it's a relatively small number, my days are really varied. So I'll be talking to our business owners, tomorrow I'm going out to an auction to support one of our team members with his very first auction. I could be organising training. I've got my own podcast called Courageous Conversation. So I host podcasts as well. 

[00:01:37] So yeah, all kinds of different things, signing new franchise agreements, going out doing new business presentations to potential franchisees, interviewing new team members, you name it. Marketing plans, social media plans. That's what I love about my job, is just the sheer variety of everything I get to do every day.

Tyrone Shum:  

Pilkington takes a journey back to her childhood so we can get to know her more personally.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:02:07] I grew up in Forestville and Belrose on the Northern Beaches of Sydney, went to high school at Davidson High. My father had a real estate business in the Hills District. He ended up moving the family when I was 18, moved the family over to Castle Hill. And I still live now in Glenhaven, which is northwest of Sydney, just near Dural.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:02:41] Oh, that's wonderful. So growing up over in Forestville, what was that like, going to primary school and all that there?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:02:53] Gosh, it's a long time ago, I can barely remember. But I think I had a pretty typical upbringing. Dad wasn't a real estate agent in those days. He was a travelling salesperson, travelling around the state. Mom was a stay at home mum. I've got a sister who is three years younger, a brother who's eight years younger than me. Mum and Dad didn't have a lot of money in those days. I remember it was an exciting day if Mum could actually afford to buy us an ice cream on the way home from school. 

[00:03:26] But things changed as we got older and Dad started his real estate business. Actually, he started his real estate business in 1973— he opened his first office and within three months, he got very sick with glandular fever. So my poor mum, who'd been at home with kids for about 12 years, had to go and run the business whilst Dad recovered. And she ended up being really good at it! So Dad ended up opening another office for Mum because they couldn't work together. That's a bit tough. Mum was a great real estate agent. And both Mum and Dad stayed in the business until they retired. 

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:04:15] Wow. That's amazing. So in Castle Hill, back in the 70s it was still kind of farm area, wasn't it?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:04:23] Yeah. A lot of it. Where I live at Glenhaven— you would know Gilbert Road— back in those days, that was a dirt track. So it's changed massively. And it's still changing! A lot of Kellyville, where you are, that was all farmland and all that sort of stuff. So there's a lot of development going on.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:04:44] Still is, even north Kellyville there's still a lot of blocks of land, and further out that way there's still a lot of development that's still going on. 

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:04:52] There sure is. We had a deposit on a property in Box Hill, my gosh, 25 years ago now, and it was $330,000 for five acres of land.

[00:05:06] And on the day of exchange, the vendors changed their mind. And of course, that parcel of land, maybe three years ago sold for multi multi millions of dollars, that five acres. I just get depressed every time I think about it!

To delve further into Pilkington’s childhood and her parents’ careers in real estate, she details the beginnings of her father’s company and what it has become today.

[00:05:46] Dad started a brand called Anvil Realty. Because it was short, it was strong. And it was at the beginning of the alphabet, because back in those days, everybody used the Yellow Pages and the phone book to find whatever they needed. So a different time. He ended up with three offices in the Hills District. And then there was a brand from the US that came out called ERA. And their premise was— I don't know whether you ever watched MASH? But Colonel Sherman Potter, he was literally their poster boy. And we had this poster in the office of him in his hard helmet, saying, 'if we can't sell your property, we'll buy it'. And so that's going right back into the late '70s. That was their premise. Dad only ever had to buy one property from somebody, we actually did buy a property. And of course, now in the US, I buyers are everywhere. It's a very, very common phenomenon over there. Still not very popular here. And the Ray White brand in 1997 bought out ERA and so Dad converted his business to a Ray White.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:07:06] Which is still there! Actually, I actually know the owners there.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:07:10] Ray White Castle Hill. Yeah, Dad used to own Ray White Castle Hill and, in fact, owned that building.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:07:16] Wow, that's excellent. A family business that's still there. And you've obviously carried on the brand from there. So tell us a little bit more about growing up— you said around about when you were 18 years old, you actually moved over to Castle Hill. What was that like for you? 

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:07:39] So this is my 40th year in real estate. I'm giving away my age, but I'm 58. I went straight from high school, in fact, I was Dad's Sunday girl because I was a competitive squash player. So I used to play squash every Saturday and I worked for dad every Sunday. He paid me $5 a day. I'm old, but I'm not that old! He was tight! 

[00:08:21] I was planning on being a school teacher but I went up to the Gold Coast as everybody did— as everybody still does, for Schoolies— yes, Schoolies was invented back in those days! And I ran out of money and he was going to send me some money so long as I could work for him until uni went back. So I was going to go to Teacher's College. 

[00:08:44] And of course, I never went. I stayed and I enrolled to become a valuer. So I used to drive and in those days, it did take about an hour and a half. I used to drive from Baulkham Hills, the office was originally, to the city, to Ultimo three nights a week for four years to become a valuer. I was working seven days a week, I was studying three nights a week for four years. Amazing the energy you have!

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:09:15] It was really, really full on. I don't actually know how I did it. But I was determined. I'm one of those people that if I start something, I like to finish it. And within the first 12 months I realised valuation was not for me. I was never very good at maths and of course, it's all maths. And you don't have a lot to do with people, really, as a valuer, and I'm a people person. 

[00:09:42] But anyway, I started it so I finished it, and I went on to work for Dad. I started as the receptionist, worked through property management, and then I was a salesperson and I worked for him until I was in my late 20s. He used to fire me every Friday— he thinks it's funny now when he tells people the story. But yeah, we used to fight. And that was as much my fault as it was he is if I'm honest.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:10:13] Well, it is hard. I've worked for my parents before in their business. And it's challenging because we have different thoughts. There's one way that we can do it, but then they want it done that way. But at the end of the day, we're family.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:10:25] Yeah, that's right. And you don't have the boundaries. There's no way any of my team would ever dream of speaking to me the way I spoke to my dad. So I often say that unfortunately, I didn't really get good at what I do until after I left Dad, because I had to learn to have a bit more respect for the people I was working for. And I didn't show Dad the respect I should have probably, during those times. Hopefully he won't watch this.

Tyrone Shum:  

While she didn’t go straight from high school to university, Pilkington wasn’t going to let that stop her from achieving her goal of obtaining a degree.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:11:12] I went back to university in my 40s and did an MBA. I don't have too many regrets in my life, but one of the things that I do regret was not going to uni straight from school. I did study, obviously. And it wasn't just evaluation, I did my real estate licence, I did my auctioneers certificate, I did a whole lot of stuff. But I regretted not actually having that university degree. 

[00:11:45] By that stage, I was also the GM at Laing and Simmons. And I felt if anything happened to my job at Laing and Simmons, nobody would give me a job at that level unless I had that qualification behind me. And I'm not even sure that that's as relevant today. It's interesting with education. It wasn't that important, then it became incredibly important. And now, I think whilst uni is a wonderful... it's wonderful to learn. But there's lots of people that just get out there and hustle, right? And I don't necessarily have to have that formal degree these days. 

Tyrone Shum:   

She shares her experiences with hiring and training employees, and gives insight into her preference of who she would hire.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:13:27] I'm in a position at the moment where I've put together a group that has bought the Laing and Simmons brand. And there's all different areas that I want to expand into. And I'm just looking at who I need for those roles. And as much as I love the enthusiasm of youth— old chicks rule. It's not just wisdom, it's empathy. It's stability. I know people that are building their careers typically only want to hang around for two or three years. So in my world, two or three years goes by like that. And it's like, 'Oh, God, have I gotta recruit again, am I gonna re-train again?'. Whilst every new person brings different opportunities and different experiences, it's just a pain in the neck.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:14:22] The last thing you want to do is after you've trained them all up, spent at least a good 12 months getting them into that position, then they leave a year later, it's like gonna start all over again. 

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:14:33] What's worse, though, right? You train them and they leave, or you don't train them and they stay?

 

Coming up after the break we will delve into Pilkington’s career prospects pre-real estate...

 

[00:16:13] So I actually temped for a while. Because I didn't really have any skills, other than I was good with people. Computers were barely invented in those days, embarrassingly. 

 

We discuss her stops and starts in various industries...

 

[00:20:06] Because I'd taken up quite a big step back from a centre manager to a franchise administrator, it was like a 30% pay cut, 25 years ago. So it was a big step backwards for me, but I just wanted to be in a happy place.

 

We delve into her beginnings at Laing and Simmons.

 

[00:21:37] I started in Laing and Simmons in 1995. In 1997, the business was bought by our commercial franchisee, so they were both the franchisor and franchisee. And very soon after they bought the business, they fired the general manager, my old boyfriend.

 

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

 

 

Tyrone Shum:  

Pilkington dives into her progression from working for her father, to travelling, to having an epiphany that changed the course of her career.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:15:11] I ended up going to Europe for three or four months, as all Australians do. And Dad would never let me have holidays. So I actually had four months paid leave. So I went to Europe and on the plane on the way back, I thought, 'I can't do this anymore'. And so I got off the plane and I resigned. What a terrible, awful thing to do. But it wasn't my intention. It was only when I got away and actually had that clear brain space that I realised it's just not what I want to do. 

 

[00:15:45] And— part of the problem— real estate's an incredible career, but as I already said, I was working seven days a week, I was studying three nights a week. Of course that challenged me intellectually. So it wasn't like I was just cruising through. And I was burnt out. I think if I had gotten into selling real estate in my 30s, I'd probably still be doing it now. But I started too early, I went too hard. And I burnt myself out. 

[00:16:13] So I actually temped for a while. Because I didn't really have any skills, other than I was good with people. Computers were barely invented in those days, embarrassingly. So I temped for a while. And after about three or four months, the recruiters said to me, 'Actually, Leanne, we think you would be a great recruitment consultant'. And I said, 'Okay, well, I don't even really know what you people do, quite frankly'. So I went in, and I spent some time with them. And I did in fact, spend three years as a recruiter. In those days was a company called Centrecom. They had over 200 consultants around the country. And in my second year in that business, I won their consultant of the year, which was amazing.

[00:17:04] I was really proud of that. And it was a great job. I really enjoyed it, but it was a bit repetitive for me, because you're doing the same thing. You're finding your business, you're interviewing people... so I was offered a job. An old boyfriend of mine was a shopping centre manager at Brighton Le-Sands, and he offered me a job as an assistant centre manager. So I looked after the shopping centre, but also the office tower next door. 

[00:17:38] I'd never had any experience in retail or commercial. I often joke that the only experience I had before I got to the shopping centre was that I'm a really good shopper. It made a big difference! My old boyfriend got the sack, and I got his job. So I was promoted to centre manager— he still speaks to me!— and I stayed there for three or four years. And unfortunately, my regional manager at the time thought that our relationship should be somewhat different than it was. And so I had one of those awful #metoo moments that I did come out and speak about on LinkedIn a year or two ago, if anybody wants to see the story, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, it's all there. And so I left that job. And I worked for a property developer for 12 months.

[00:18:50] He focused on retail. So my shopping centre experience was obviously was good there. But that job wasn't really what I thought it was going to be. And he ran out of money. And so I ended up getting offered— another old boyfriend, there's a pattern, right?—  another old boyfriend offered me a job as the marketing and admin manager, or franchise coordinator, I think my original title was, at Laing and Simmons. He's the general manager. And so I went there. 

[00:19:29] And it was really interesting, because I'd known him... we were no longer in a relationship, and hadn't been for quite some time, but we'd stayed friends. So I was very well aware of the Laing and Simmons brand, and I really liked it. And I was horrified when I got there. We did some research and I found out that the franchisees hated each other, and they hated head office even more. I said to my friend, 'All right, we've got two choices here. Either I go and find a new job, because I can't— I've just been in a toxic culture for years, and I just can't do it. Because I'd taken up quite a big step back from a centre manager to a franchise administrator, it was like a 30% pay cut, 25 years ago. So it was a big step backwards for me, but I just wanted to be in a happy place. I just wanted to enjoy what I did, and the people around me. 

[00:20:24] And so I went, I found out that Laing and Simmons wasn't as happy as I thought it was, I said, 'Okay, either I'm gonna go find another job, or we can work together to change the culture'. And he was up for that. And so that's what we did. And that culture change is not fast. But it's changed massively now. And if you talk to anybody about Laing and Simmons, that's one of the things that they will tell you, is that we have an amazing culture within the organisation. So I'm really proud that we could actually affect positive change in that space.

She goes on to further detail her beginnings at Laing and Simmons, and delves into an experience she had that changed her perception of herself.

[00:21:37] I started in Laing and Simmons in 1995. In 1997, the business was bought by our commercial franchisee, so they were both the franchisor and franchisee. And very soon after they bought the business, they fired the general manager, my old boyfriend.

[00:22:13] When I started at Laing and Simmons, the people that owned them owned a lot of different businesses, they owned wineries and car parks and all kinds of things. And so the CEO was a man that I didn't really know very well, I knew him, but he had very little to do with me, or the Laing and Simmons side of the business. But when Rob and Tony bought the business, they actually said to them, 'Whatever you do, hold on to Leanne, because she's the one who's actually running the business'. I didn't know that he even knew what I did. And so the lesson for me was it's the things that you do when you don't realise anybody's watching. That was what set me on my own leadership path, really.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:22:56] Yeah. And it sounds like actions spoke louder than the words.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:22:59] Yeah, for sure. So when Rob and Tony bought the business, Tony moved into that— they fired the previous GM, Tony moved into that role. And so Tony and I worked together for about 18 months, and I loved it. I always saw myself as a really good number two. Tony's a very charismatic man, and everybody wanted to be around him, and he would go out and, as charismatic men tend to do, 'We'll make this happen!'. And then he would leave and I'd run around in the background, making everything happen. 

[00:23:39] I tell my promotion story often. When they bought the business, I'd just been promised a pay rise. And as I said, I took a 30% pay cut to get there. And I was working again, seven days a week. That just seems to be who I am. And I had just negotiated a pay rise, and then all of a sudden, these guys were buying the business and everything was off the table. 

 

[00:24:06] And I was filthy. So I stormed down to the— because I knew the guys, they were my franchisees— so I stormed down there and I was determined to get a pay rise. An hour later, I turned around with no pay rise and no pay rise in the foreseeable future, excited about what they could bring to Laing and Simmons. And so that was another lesson to me. If you can sell your vision for the future clearly enough, people will come along for the ride just to see if you can get people excited about it. And so for a long time, they got me very, very cheap, I can tell you. 

[00:24:47] And then Tony was on his way, he was going on holidays. And he was walking out the door and as he left he went 'See you later kiddo, I'll see you in two weeks', and then he walked backwards and said to me 'By the way, you are much better at this franchising stuff than I am. I'm going back to selling commercial real estate, you're going to be my GM. Anyway, I'll see you in a fortnight'. And off he went. And I'm like, 'What just happened?'. And I still didn't get a pay rise, it was like, show me what you can do. And six months later, I got a really good pay rise. So that was crazy. 

[00:25:25] And I never saw myself as a leader. And so I rang all of my franchise owners and said, 'Look, this is what's happened'. And they were overwhelmingly excited about it. And I kind of rang all of them, got off the phone and thought, 'That's weird. Why am I so happy? I don't think I can do this. Why do they think I can?'. And so I rang a few of them back and said, 'Why are you so happy about this?' And they said, 'Leanne, we know how much you care about us. We know how much you care about our businesses. And we know how much you care about the Laing and Simmons brand. And that's what we want'. That's what people want from their leaders. They want to know how much you care. So that was another really, really important lesson for me. 

Tyrone Shum:  

We turn to Pilkington’s property investing journey as she discusses the first property she bought, and her current investing strategy. 

[00:26:37] I bought my first property with my boyfriend at the time and my sister, when I was still living at home with Mum and Dad. So we bought a property in the west of Sydney. And eventually, when my boyfriend became my husband, we bought my sister out, and we moved into it. We stayed there for a few years, and then actually bought the house we're in now. We almost bought at Box Hill. But sadly, no. So we're at Glenhaven in the Northwest. 

[00:27:09] And yeah, we also invest in property. We've got a very specific strategy around our property investment, though we invest in our Super fund— we've got a do it yourself Super fund. Which is not that easy, to borrow money in a Super fund these days, however, we have some property and we buy property that we can add value to. So we've bought property in, again, the west of Sydney, on big blocks that we can add a granny flat to. That's been really successful for us. We bought well, at the right time before the market started to really kick out in areas like Blacktown and Quakers Hill. So that's been our strategy.

Tyrone Shum:  

She delves further into when she started investing into her Self Managed Super fund, and describes some of the financial struggles she had at the time.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:28:11] There could have been. Life gets in the way. My husband and I— when we bought our first house when we first got married, it was back in... it's our 30th anniversary this year. 1991 we got married. You're too young to remember, but interest rates were like 17 or 18%.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:28:41] My parents told me about that story.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:28:44] Shocking, and our first home was only... I think I paid $140,000. So our mortgage, by today's standards, was not very big. I was a recruiter in the early days there, and then I moved into the shopping centre. My husband was in a job that he got a lot of overtime. So that was how we— my commission and his overtime was basically what we needed to get through. 

[00:29:11] I still remember very clearly that we actually didn't have enough money to buy food to get through the week. So we would have to have dinner at my parents' one night a week, and his parents' one night a week to get through. I can remember randomly seeing a pizza ad and buying pizza for dinner one night, and I stressed for the rest of the week, because that was really our food money for the rest of the week. And it's like, 'Why did you do that?'. So life gets in the way and then by the time we started to have the money to actually invest in property, we just decided that super was the most tax effective way for us to actually do that. 

 

[00:30:23] For us the properties that we decided to buy, we bought them for return, for yield. That's not necessarily the strategy for everybody. So you've really got to look at your own circumstances and take some advice from the professionals. I'm a professional real estate franchisor, I wouldn't pretend to give people advice around property purchasing and building a portfolio.

[00:31:14] And one of the things that a lot of our business owners do is talk to their own teams and say, 'Okay, what are your dreams?', and often, it's about getting into property for the first time. So they'll put a strategy together to help the employee to actually save the money for a deposit, connect them with the right mortgage brokers. It's really important to understand what banks look at, for example, when they're going to lend you money. Things like Netflix and Uber Eats, they go right through all of your spending. And all of those things is really... if you know that in three years’ time you want to buy a property, then you need to get that stuff sorted out now, ahead of time. There's no point in three years’ time going, 'Right, I want to borrow money', for the bank to go 'Oh, no, sorry, you spent too much money on Uber Eats'. Seriously, it's crazy what the banks look at!

[00:32:30] My argument's always been— well, I mean, I've got a serious shoe habit, as anybody who knows me will attest to, and I'm like, 'Well, I can afford to buy shoes at the moment. But if I wanted to get another mortgage, I would have to stop buying shoes. So why is what I was spending last month relevant on what I'm going to be spending next month?'. But the banks don't see it that way.

Tyrone Shum:  

Like we all have at some point, Pilkington has had her struggles. She shares one of her worst times across business and how it affected her personal life.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:00:31] Probably the most difficult time personally was when my husband became redundant, and he was out of work for quite some time. We had a couple of properties at that time, so I was in a very privileged position that we had an apartment in the city and we had the house here at Glenhaven, and my husband travelled a lot for his job. So when he was away, I would go and stay in town. It's an expensive way to live, two separate residences. 

[00:01:05] It got really hard for him. It was at a time when... you know, GFC. And so anyway, it was really hard, and trying to look forward to things was really hard, because we didn't have any money. I could just cover our expenses and stuff. But there was no money for luxuries. And so my husband, God love him, would make my breakfast, lunch and dinner every day. So I'd have a packed breakfast to take to work and a packed lunch to take all of that sort of stuff. He was wonderful. But it was really hard. 

[00:01:40] It was really hard to find things to look forward to. But what was super important to me, reflecting back on it, I had a really beautiful lifestyle. As I said, living between two properties, driving a sports car, wearing designer label clothes, travelling business class around the world. Rob would be in Hong Kong and say, 'Hey, baby, I can't get home. I've got you a ticket, though. You're leaving tomorrow, you'll be in Hong Kong for four days'. And I would get to the airport and it'd be a first class ticket! Care of frequent flyer points, of course. 

[00:02:15] So we had a really incredible lifestyle. And I thought that all of that was really important. But what I learned during that time was, that's actually not the important stuff. I can live without all of that stuff. I can even live without my shoes, if I have to. What was important to me was us, was our relationship and that we were okay and he was okay, going through this difficult time. I would be in a very different place financially now if that didn't happen. I'm glad it did. Because it really shone a light on what was important to me. And that has shaped the way I've done things moving forward, to be honest.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:02:59] What a beautiful story. 

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:03:03] I don't tell that story very often!

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:03:05] I really appreciate that. Because it goes to show there's so many great things in life, and you can have a wonderful lifestyle, but at the end of the day, it's that relationship with your husband or your wife or your family and so forth. Because that's something that you can never have…

Rediscover What Makes You Happy 

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:03:19] Yeah. That's right, you can be the richest person in the world, but if you don't have those things, those people, those relationships. I was doing a training session not long ago with my team. And the speaker said, 'Really quickly, write down the things that make you happy'. And I thought, 'Oh, okay, that's a challenge'. And the things that I wrote down really surprised me, even. I mean, I do love to shop. But those weren't the things that... you know. I wrote down 'sunshine', sunshine makes me happy. Dancing makes me happy. Having time to read a book makes me happy. And I thought, 'Oh, okay, I've actually got to try to work some of those things into my day more frequently'. There's no reason— I've got a beautiful back deck here. There's no reason why I can't, when I'm making my phone calls, sit out on the back deck and do it rather than sitting here. 

[00:04:16] So just quickly thinking about the things that bring a smile to your face every day. The simple things. It might be... I've got a seven year old niece who is just completely adorable. Talking to her always makes me laugh. So making time for those things, that's really super important. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Pilkington shares the moments where she doubted herself, despite others’ belief and faith in her, and how these turned into her ‘aha’ moments.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:05:04] Every time I get approached to do something, I go, 'I can't do that. Why would you want me?' So when I was promoted to managing director, they said to me, 'Leanne, we think it's time that Laing and Siemens had a managing director'. And I thought to myself, 'I cannot believe after all this time, they're going to bring somebody in over the top of me, how rude is that?!' And they're like, 'No, Leanne, we're talking about you'. I'm like, 'Oh! Okay then'. 

[00:05:47] When I was approached, because I was actually tapped on the shoulder— I was on the board of the REI, because I've been really passionate about improving the education and training standards for real estate agents. They tapped me on the shoulder and said, 'We'd like you to consider being our next president'. I was like, 'Are you for real? Like, I can't do that, why can I do that?' And I thought to myself, 'Oh Leanne, get over yourself. Of course you can do it.' 

[00:06:17] I still have those things that happen to me. My networking group, Real Women in Real Estate, we were— pre COVID— running events around the country. And I started that group back in 2015 with a friend of mine, Tangelie, who's based in Melbourne. Tange was coming to all of the events and she's a fantastic speaker and trainer and she would be the host, if you like, and she would run all of the stuff that we would do on the nights. And she just said to me, 'Hey, this is getting too big. I can't travel like this anymore'. And I thought, 'Well, I can't do it without Tange. Hold on. I'm seeing a theme here. I always immediately think no I can't. And of course, I can. And do'. So it's a real lesson. 

 

[00:07:11] I don't really have a lot of negative self talk. I'm on pretty good terms with myself. But even still, there are those moments where it's just like, 'Oh, no, you can't do that'. And it was even when it came to buying the Laing and Simmons business. I was really scared of making that financial commitment, having that financial risk at this point in my life, thinking, 'I can't bring the brand what it needs'. And it's like, 'Get over yourself. Leanne, of course you can. You know exactly what the brand needs. Just have the guts to have a crack'. So that's what I'm doing.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:07:51] I love that. It's so encouraging to hear that, because I think a lot of people have these sometimes negative thoughts in there, and you're a true example of how to overcome these things. And you've just taken action too, as well. And that's what I love about hearing your stories. And it's just this great inspiration for so many listeners out there. And thank you for sharing that as well.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:08:11] Oh, thank you. That's very sweet of you. You've got to be prepared to be uncomfortable. Just take a bit of a risk. I don't care. Like I said, I'm 58. I've got lots of friends who are having conversations around retirement, and it's like, 'Well, I've just bought a business!' Retirement's just not even on my radar!

 

[00:08:44] I've got a plan! I've got a plan for a decade. Because we've got a really high calibre board at Laing and Simmons that I've put together. My 10 year plan is to transition to become chairman of the board— or chairperson of the board— at that time, so hopefully, I'm going to learn a lot from our current chairman. And that will be my career progression at that age. So that's my plan!

Tyrone Shum:  

She goes on to describe how she came across the opportunity, and gives more detail on the background behind her exciting purchase.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:09:32] It's only just happened, we haven't even settled yet. Back in 2012 we were bought by a business and it started great. It was really good. They added so much value and so much energy to Laing and Simmons, and it was going really well. 

[00:09:58] Real estate has changed significantly in the last few years. And franchising needs to change with it. And so I was very clear on what I thought we should be delivering. And they were on the same page, and we were all working very happily along. And then a few things changed for their business, which changed their focus— which is perfectly fine, I completely understand. 

[00:10:22] One of the things that I do with my team every year is we write a letter to ourselves in December of every year to be read at the December of the following year. We write it as if we've achieved all of these things. So it's like a business plan by another name, right? And 2019, I struggled with it, and I wasn't looking forward to 2020— little did I know what was going to happen in 2020, right?!— but I just didn't feel that I could deliver on what I knew the brand needed, because the owners didn't agree with me. And so 2019, in my letter to myself, I said 'It's December 2020, and Laing and Simmons have new owners'. 

[00:11:13] So, that was not my plan, to be one of the owners. It couldn't be further from what I was thinking about doing. But we had some conversations with some people who had shown some interest in buying the brand. And I realised that it probably wasn't going to go well for some of the franchisees, they weren't going to be happy with another big brand buying us. So I had a couple of franchisees who heard on the grapevine that it potentially could be sold. And so they said, 'You know what? We'd actually like to buy it, but we'll only do it if you buy it with us'. And I'm like, 'I don't want to do that! I'm tired!' 

[00:11:53] And then the more I thought about it, the more I thought, 'You know what, actually, this can make some sense'. One of the struggles with being a franchisor is getting the individual business owners on board to actually implement the stuff that head office wants to do. It's always this... tension, if you like. And so I thought, 'If I can get a big enough cohort that actually owns the business, then I can use them to demonstrate that my ideas are sound, and then we can roll it out more easily to the rest of the group'. 

[00:12:32] And so very quickly, I realised that a lot of the franchisees wanted to get involved, so we had to actually limit... we've got a few small shareholders— there's a group of us that have got 10%, and there's 15 of us all up— we've held 10% aside strategically to have available for maybe another franchisee to come in, or a corporate team member, I don't know, we'll see. So that was how it came about, it was just sort of me. I rang the CEO and said, 'You know what? I actually think that it's time for you guys to think about selling us'. And he said, 'Okay, I'll talk to the board. But I get it'. And that's what happened. And it sort of all happened pretty quickly after that. I've been in a bit of a whirlwind.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:13:23] Subconsciously, you wrote it down, but not knowing how it'd be done. But it ended up happening. Isn't that amazing?

Leanne Pilkington:    

[00:13:28] It's bizarre, I know! It's really bizarre how— and I'm not really into all that [psychic] stuff— but it happens. You put it out into the universe. That will serve me right!

Tyrone Shum:  

Laing and Simmons underwent a rebranding and changed their logo in recent years. Pilkington expands on the thought process behind that.

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:13:58] I've rebranded twice in my 25 years at Laing and Simmons. The first time was back in the year 2000, the same year I was promoted to General Manager. And the second time was in 2012, when our new owners came on board, and it was really interesting. It was an interesting process the second time, because the new owners actually said, 'Look, we want to be collaborative with the franchise network, and we want to know what they want'. And so it was really interesting. The way that we did it was we had a big focus group in the city, and we talked it all through, and then we got everybody to write down the things that they wanted to definitely keep, and the things that they didn't want us to have or they wanted us to change. They write down each thing on a Post-it note.

[00:14:44] Because what we were finding in some of these meetings is the loudest people get heard, but that's not always the majority view. One of the things was yellow sign boards. We had a whole lot of people who appeared to want to have blue signboards. And it sounded like that was the majority. But once we actually went through that process and everybody's stuck their ‘keep the yellow sign boards’. And so all of a sudden we have all these Post-it notes down the wall with 'Keep the yellow', 'keep the yellow', 'keep the yellow'. And the loudest people who wanted the blue, just looked at that and looked at me and said, 'Oh, wow, we didn't realise everybody felt that way'. So I thought, 'Wow, that's a really good tool to use in those kinds of meetings'. 

[00:15:31] It's a big, expensive exercise to rebrand. And then we paid for all of the offices to be re-done. And that's expensive, because it's between about... a very small office might be five or $6,000. But it might be 12 or 15 offices, $1,000 an office, and that's just the external signage. So it was an interesting process.

Coming up after the break, we hear Pilkington’s advice regarding agents and their impact on portfolios...

[00:18:33] A good real estate agent can make a difference to the value of your portfolio. So you really need to— and not all property managers are created equal— you've got to make sure.

She describes the first event she held for the Real Women in Real Estate network...

[00:22:19] The very first event was in October 2015, in Sydney, and two weeks beforehand, I sent an email out to a dozen women that I knew that had a lot of women in their team and said, 'Look, this is what I'm doing, if you think it's a good idea'.

She explains her philosophy on how to balance your opinion of yourself versus others’. 

[00:25:00] And then I realised that it was about his stuff. It wasn't about my stuff. It wasn't about what I was capable of. So I think you've got to be really careful when you ask for feedback.

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

Tyrone Shum:  

Pilkington shares some of her visions for the Laing and Simmons franchisees and reveals how much goes on behind the scenes.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:16:31] I think we need to provide better support in a lot of areas for the franchise owners. It's very hard to build a rent roll from the time that you start a business, because most of our new franchisees are salespeople, and salespeople aren't detailed. Like in property, their property management is like neither the property management space. So I think that we can support them really effectively in the back end, in that kind of area. I think the area of recruitment— but not just recruitment, the onboarding and ongoing engagement of people, I think, is really important. 

[00:17:20] Real estate business owners, by and large, are small business people, they're really good salespeople, they don't have a lot of actual business skills. And so I think that we need to provide a lot of assistance for them to run better businesses. There's so many opportunities, I've got literally dozens and dozens of different things that we can do. But obviously, I can't do everything at once. So I held a strategy session with my 15 business owners a week ago. And we're all on the same page, which is really super exciting. So I'm just writing my business plan now that I'll deliver to the board at the beginning of next month. And yeah, away we go.

Tyrone Shum:  

With so many property investors that may want to sell, and who want to work with an agency like Laing and Simmons, how can they benefit from that?

[00:18:30] Because a good real estate agent can make a difference to the value of your portfolio. So you really need to— and not all property managers are created equal— you've got to make sure. Now one of the problems with property management is there's a lot of turnover of staff. So you want to try and find somebody who's got a really established career in property management. Ideally, if they're a business owner, or a part business owner, means they're not going to go anywhere, typically. Sit down with them and talk about what your overall goals are, and it might be that the property that you've got right now, you might be better off selling it, and investing in two properties somewhere else, for example. You need to take in the overall yield and the capital growth of your particular property in the area where you are. You need to think about the maintenance requirements. 

[00:19:27] And you've got to make sure that if your agent is advising you on maintenance, that you actually do it. We have some landlords who want to set and forget. They don't want to spend any money on maintaining their property and that's dangerous, from a tenants’ perspective. It's dangerous financially for the landlords because if your agent says to you, ‘Okay, you need to make these changes’. For example, the back step, it's a bit rickety. And you go 'Oh, don't worry about that step'. The tenant falls through. In fact, I've got an example right now. The tenant claimed $470,000 damages from falling through a back step. And your insurance premiums go through the roof. That's one tip for property investors. If you don't have landlord insurance, please go and get it.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:20:23] Yes, absolutely. It's a must. It's a must.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:20:24] Yeah, it is. And have a look at the domestic violence provisions in those insurance policies, because the obligations on landlords and agents under the domestic violence provisions changed in New South Wales not that long ago. So make sure your insurance covers that. And also have a look at how it would treat you during a pandemic, if you don't get any rent. So that was an interesting time for all of our landlords as well. You need to be actively looking at your portfolio, and you can grow it much more effectively if you have conversations with your agents and get recommendations from your agent about what next. And if your agent can't help you in that space, go and find a new agent.

Tyrone Shum:   

Turning to mindset, Pilkington shares if she had any mentors who coached her along the way.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:21:54] My very first business mentor is now the chairman of Laing and Simmons. So yeah, I keep my people close. But from a mindset, interestingly, I've mentioned that I started the Real Women in Real Estate network. And I started that because I was nagged to death about it, from a couple of girls that worked for me. Because I've been around for so long, I've got so many connections, and they were like, 'Lee, we want you to share those connections'. 

[00:22:19] The very first event was in October 2015, in Sydney, and two weeks beforehand, I sent an email out to a dozen women that I knew that had a lot of women in their team and said, 'Look, this is what I'm doing, if you think it's a good idea'. 65 people turned up to the first event. The first event was a sellout. And I was still standing there going, 'I don't get it. I don't understand, what the, what, I don't understand. Why? What do people want?' But I could see that there was a need. 

[00:22:48] And so we sort of quickly went from one event in Sydney to literally... we've done events everywhere except for Tasmania, that's the only state we haven't done an event. Even New Zealand and Los Angeles, would you believe? We've got over 2,000 members. And I didn't think that I needed it. I really didn't think that I needed it. But what I've found is that there's a core group of these women that have become really close friends, and they're incredible women. They're coaches or they're trainers or they're business owners, they're very skilled, caring, intelligent women, and they are my go-to girls now. If I've got a really big decision that I'm struggling with, usually I'm a bit closed, I'm pretty comfortable with my own decision making typically. But if I've got something that I'm really struggling with, depending on what it is, there's a few of them that I will reach out to depending on what the problem is, just to get another perspective. 

[00:23:58] But I'm also naturally optimistic. And whilst I do get down in the dumps from time to time, I know that it won't last long because I won't let it last long. I say to people that I give myself an uppercut, get on with it, girl, get on with it! I'm able to pull myself out of the funk. And I get into them! Even with this whole lead up to buying the business. I spoke to a business mentor who I really care about and value, and he thought it was a terrible idea for me to get involved in the business. I felt really helpless after speaking to him. I went into a depression for a week or so. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know where to go next. I just didn't know what to do. 

[00:25:00] And then I realised that it was about his stuff. It wasn't about my stuff. It wasn't about what I was capable of. So I think you've got to be really careful when you ask for feedback. Firstly, if you don't value the person, don't value the feedback. If you wouldn't ask them for advice, don't take their negativity. But even when you do ask for feedback— take it on board, think about it, and then choose. Does it fit or doesn't it? Because nobody really knows what's going on in your head. Nobody really knows what you're capable of. Sometimes you don't even know until you have a crack. 

[00:25:46] Do things that fill your cup. For me, I need to exercise, I need to go to the gym, I need to do that sort of stuff. And maybe go for a massage. I just managed to pull myself out of it. I don't know, I wish I could be more prescriptive about how I do it, but I do it often.

[00:26:33] Don't eat junk. Look after your diet, all that stuff. I've won a number of awards recently, Most Influential Woman in Property, Thought Leader awards, and all of that sort of stuff. And so people make the mistake of looking at me— I speak on stage quite regularly now, and I'm comfortable doing it. I wasn't always but I am now— and people make the mistake of looking at me and thinking, 'Leanne wouldn't have those negative voices in her head', or 'Leanne wouldn't second guess herself' or 'Leanne wouldn't feel like an imposter'. Excuse my language, but bullshit. Leanne feels all of those things. So don't look at anybody and think that they don't have things that scare them, or things that they need to work on, or things that intimidate them— we all do. We all do.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:27:30] Wow, that is very, very inspiring. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listeners will be able to take that away and go wow, if Leanne can do it. I can do it too.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:27:41] #IfSheCanICanToo! That was my hashtag I used when I first became president of the Real Estate Institute, because I'm only the second female president in 115 years, and I'm the first president they've ever asked to stay for a second term. So that was my hashtag in the early days, #IfSheCanICanToo. Because it's so true, right.

Tyrone Shum:  

She delves into her favourite books on entrepreneurship and mindset, and makes some great recommendations for the next time you find yourself in Vegas!

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:28:19] I love Delivering Happiness by Tony Shea, the late Tony Shea. How tragic was that? Oh, wow. I was lucky enough to go and visit Zappos when I was in Vegas a couple of years ago. So that was an incredible experience. And I would suggest to anybody who's interested in customer service, grab that book Delivering Happiness. And if you ever get to Vegas, reach out to the team at Zappos because they do organise tours and it's definitely worthwhile. So that would be my all time favourite. 

[00:28:55] And Carol Dweck's book on fixed mindsets and growth mindsets. That's a really, really good one as well. It makes you realise why some people are... for me, I've got a growth mindset, but other people look at why they can't do something. Whereas I look at how I can. So that's a really good one as well.

Tyrone Shum:  

If she met herself 10 years ago, what would Pilkington say to herself?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:30:03] ‘You have no idea how much you're capable of’. Yeah, absolutely. I never saw myself here. I never saw myself here. I never saw myself as a leader. I never saw myself winning awards like I've been winning. Just go for it. You're capable of so much more than you believe.

Tyrone Shum:  

Heading in the other direction, where does she see herself in five years from now?

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:31:08] I have got a brand that's growing. I've got a shareholder base that is also growing and happy and engaged. I have multiple revenue streams for the business. And I have a lot of happy people around me.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:31:54] Last question for you, Leanne, is how much of your success is due to your skill, hard work, and intelligence? And how much of it is because of luck?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:32:08] Well, the harder I work, the luckier I get. And certainly, I do believe that there is an element of luck for everybody. But my success is down to taking opportunities when they're presented to me. If I go back to when I was a recruiter, I was only there for maybe a month or two and the manager of that operation left. And I was approached and said, 'Would you like to be the manager?' And I'm like, 'Jesus, I've just been here for five minutes! I don't even know the job. No, I can't do that'. 

[00:32:47] And that was a mistake. I should have actually said, 'Yeah, let's do it'. And so moving forward in my career, that's what I've always done. I've gone 'Yeah, I'm going to have a crack, even though I don't know that I can do it. I don't even know how I'm going to do it'. But you say yes. And you work it out.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:33:06] And that's the thing. It sounds like the people who actually offered you those positions had confidence in you. So if they have confidence in you, then you're going to be able to action it, because you'll figure it out.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:33:17] Yeah, that's such an important point, right? If you value the people around you, and you think that they're smart business people, and they're saying to you, 'We want you to be the general manager', or 'We want you to be the president'... a lot of people do see more in you than you see in yourself. So believe them. And have a crack.

Thank you to Leanne Pilkington, our guest on this episode of Property Investory.