Today on The Jay Allen show, Jay speaks with Daniel J. Snyder, Ed.D. During the conversation, they discuss Daniels's career how he got involved with safety, how the military played a factor in what he does, and how he became the Safety Philosopher.

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[00:00:03] spk_0: this show is brought to you by Safety FM. Hello and welcome to another episode of the J. Allen Joe. Hopefully, you're off to a good and grand start of the week. Everything's going fantastic in this second week of March of 2021. Yeah, that's timeline for you, just in case you know exactly where you're at. So this conversation that it is being recorded, or this conversation that was recorded probably better way to say it was from a few weeks ago. I want you to know the truth. Most of these things we try to do live in I'm the radio station as close as possible to real time. Or at least we try to do them live. This was my mess up, so we ended up having to do it as a free record. But I have to tell you, it was a great conversation that I had with Daniel Snyder. Now, if the name sounds familiar, it's because a lot of people are familiar with Daniel Snyder. Daniel's career spans over 30 years of diverse global professional experience, facilitating research, partnering with stakeholders and creating sustainable solutions or effective occupational safety and health management systems. He served in the Army as infantry, military intelligence and as safety liaison for implementing field expedite safety training as part of the National Incident Management systems for disasters. Let me not take up anymore of your time and let's get this conversation started between Daniel Snyder and yours truly right here of the J. L. In Gerald. Yes, safety FM changing safety cultures, one broadcast and one podcast at a time. So Number one I appreciate you coming on to the show because I always think it's interesting when I get to meet people that I don't know and get to find out all kinds of new information. So the the easiest question of the hard question is always the same one. How did you get started with this whole thing? Why did you decide to go down inside of this world of safety? You know, it's everybody has their origin stories, and I think that's part of what makes, uh, some of us in this business interesting across the board, and I found that all professionals start a little bit differently. We've come a long ways from how do you get to be this way from, uh, you know, I missed a meeting, you know, I got hurt twice, Made the ocean log, you know, I mean, I've heard all that earlier on in the nineties. You know, I got in in the early nineties and I kind of got in, you know, with a degree in science and biology with hazardous materials training, a research group. And so we implemented the HAZ Walker Standard that went into effect in 89. So we supported all the all the training for that. And so I think that's what made it, you know, kind of my start with it in the in the hazmat world. So I started a community college and then kind of put on shingle out and realized companies were really interested in training and design and and and stuff and then confined space came out in the mid nineties and just kind of found myself in the role of a trainer and trying to create the best training possible, you know? And that's what seemed clients really enjoy. What I was a little bit different, an approach and and it kind of went to the the adult learning side, you know? So I've got a science background and then adult learning and all that where I really tried to mix, uh, the professions and try to bring bring the best of adult learning theory into the into the actual training education of our profession. So that's how it's so. That's how it started. But what was the what was the dream process when you first came about? What were you thinking when you were much younger before going into college? What was what was the dream of? This is what I want to do when I go, you know? No. You know, I'll tell you what. What? You know, growing up, I grew up as an Iowa farm kid. And so, you know, the day dreams on the farms of things is getting out of that area and seeing the rest of the world. Uh, you know, when I went to high school in Brazil, South America, Not very nice, you gotta learn. Were you able to do it in English, or did you have to learn to let you have to learn? Well, both the school was the American School of Brasilia in the capital. So it be like the D C version And so all the embassy kids from around the world went to the private American school. So I was basically, technically, in sovereign land of a lot of different countries within a square mile. You know, uh, with the embassies and all that. Uh, so, uh, you know, down there, I just really got interested in culture. And I really got interested in learning how to talk and communicate with people. So I think being out of the farms with very little diversity exposure and being immersed full immersion in the country of Brazil, Um, and of course, I embraced it. You know, I was wanting to learn the language. I was pretty fluent in Portuguese at the time, not very literate. You know, I never focused on the reading and writing much, but I can still speak it somewhat today. I still have dreams. Everyone's well, So that cultural shift, I think, is what got me, you know, somewhat interested in in in the piece of of people and and some of that the driving force coming out of, you know, going into into the, you know, as a kid, I really didn't have any other dreams whatsoever. Maybe be a diplomat. I think the exposure. And in Brazil maybe feel that, you know, we kind of need to be on an international scene, you know, and and working in some kind of diplomacy capacity. So, uh, you know, meeting some of those ambassadors and things like that. I think that kind of is a as a as a boyish teenage dream for me. That's what kind of came into into my mind, you know, with what I was seeing, you know, as far as projecting in the future. So, uh, but came back with a love of science and got a degree and then needed the job. And so the only thing I get was, you know, over the best thing I get is hazardous materials training work. So So So so after Brazil, do you decide that's when you want to go into the military? Yeah, actually, well, that's a little different story, you know, basically went through to two years of college and then ran out of money. Okay, so so went into, uh, you know, the g i bill. And they paid for for school and all that, and ended up in a long range surveillance infantry units. So we were part of military intelligence. So the idea of gathering intelligence and how to do that effectively and report up the chain of command and and support troops and call in for fire and and different things that, you know, small team military team does, um, you know, that really formulated a lot. And also to at that point, just the the brilliance of the training machine, you know? I mean, nobody trains better than the United States military to task, you know, they just do, That's what they do. So I think being exposed to that regiment and and that type of soldering, you know, I think really kind of maybe come back in with some money and fresh ideas and finished college pretty quickly and then was ready to step out into the end of the rural world in some form or fashion. So So I think that shift midway through through college to join the military and experience that, uh, really I think kind of formulated and made some things concrete for me. Not not knowing at the time. I gotta be honest. You know, this is all retrospective and reflection at the time. You know, at the time I was doing like every other 2021 year old dude, you know, I mean, I was, you know, party and have fun and, you know, going to school. You know, sometimes I was enrolled. Sometimes I like I was enrolled, you know? So did you. So did you get the itch? Did you get the edge of the military where you were? Did you ever contemplated maybe doing this as your career They're getting, you know, we'll call it early retirement, even though the 20 years is still 20 years. However you look at it, Yeah, I look at it now and I would have already been retired and and, uh, on a second career. But you know, who knows where that path would have taken me? Uh, and I did consider it a few times. I got honor graduate out of infantry school. And so when you when you get an honor grad, uh, designation. I guess we're kind of selected out of that. Um, and I was a little older than some of the kids and things like that that were in there, so I just ended up leaving it. Um, I got undergraduate and then after that, yeah, then the Ranger battalions. And, you know, special Forces and different groups were, like, you know, trying to recruit you because that's what they do in the machine. Just like any company you know, they look for people that they want to place, and so that was real interesting. And psychological operations, there's There are a lot of things that my exposure in the military, especially with military intelligence, you know, made me really think about that being a career. Um, but I I, uh But I got assigned to, uh, Guard Reserve unit Iowa, 34th Infantry Division, so I could finish out my college and basically spent my time pulling security and a helicopter flying over cornfields on the war on drugs, looking for pot plants. You know, that was, you know, kind of We have times changed, right? Right? Exactly. I laugh about that. I think it's funny, you know, And and so, you know, uh, it was it was, you know, kind of that and then getting into back into college and exploring of learning, and then those aspirations of kind of, uh, looking at a military career started to fade. You know, I've found a little bit more interested in the private sector market, so, uh, but no, it was a consideration of mine, especially with some of the things that they were thrown at you. You know? Hey, these kind of bonuses and these kind of schools, and you know, we'll put you through this and Oh, yes, you can become an officer, because degree, it becomes a totally different story. So as you're going through this, you do the g I bill, you go into the military, you get out. Then all of a sudden, you I guess, you know, the challenge of school wasn't enough. So you take two years off and say, Let's do this all over again. So you go from science and biology. But now you have this whole focus on adult education. Yeah, and human resources. So what? What is the shift? What is your shift all of a sudden? So why all of a sudden? I mean, it looks like you still love science and biology. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, but why the focus now on adult education, you know? Well, I think a lot of it was that that was the area of practice I was performing at the time and to this day really form the career. But my my real niche in the market was training and education. You know, that's what companies are hiring me to do. Um, you know, basically be a communicator on behalf of of management on certain topics. And, you know, I think it was just a matter of getting somebody else in there that could train, you know, because that same train sucked, and I really didn't want it to be that. And so I was really driven to be good at what I was doing, which then lend itself to obviously a better clientele and more opportunities. So I found I needed the Masters. I figured, you know, I might as well get a higher level degree. And so So I went back to the University of Arkansas and got the human resource development and adult learning. And I think that was a real pivotal shift, because what I found was that it was really profound to me is that there was a lot of alignment with adult learning principles that I was doing as a 24 year old because out of survival, I didn't know there was theories about this crap. You know, I didn't know there was actually methodologies to it. You know, for me, I was a 24 year old thrown in with a bunch of crustal maintenance dues and industry workers and construction workers that, you know, I had one guy. One guy told me, He goes, he goes, Heck, son, I've driven more miles in reverse than you've driven forward, you know? I mean, that's the kind of stuff that you know. That's true love right there. That it was real. It was real. These guys are an industry. I show up with some punk. What is he gonna teach us? And so out of survival, I realized one. I didn't know anything. And so I really early on in my days embraced the philosophy of Socrates. You know, I know nothing, you know, But but and then from there I was really, I think, opened up that opportunity to learn from the experts and get them talking and get them explaining. And I realized all I really got to do is formulating a good learning environment where people want to share and then ask the right questions and a lot of these questions. Honestly, Jay, were ones that I had. I had no answer to it. I was interested to know what you know, If this stuff is leaking out of this tank, you know, you know, what exactly are you guys going to do? Wait. But how does that shift work for you? Because you're coming out of the military. Of course you're going back into college to really become this adult education or education specialist is really what it boils down to. But you know how the military and and I say this with much love, as I do say it is command and control. Yeah, so But how do you How do you know at this time that the mental shift that this is not the way to approach it, even at the young age of 24? How do you know that? Hey, this is not I tell you this. This is what needs to be done, especially going through several years of it. Well, and and I can appreciate that, actually appreciate that question. And I think a couple of things on that one at the end of the day. That's what felt right to me as a practitioner at the time with the audience I had. But I think the military didn't jade me in that way because, you know, for me that experience early on, through basic training and airborne school, and you know all those schools and stuff when you first get into the military, it doesn't matter which brings service, you know, their whole job is to break you down and build you how they want you. And and so depending on where you go from that initial indoctrination process that all military people get, then it becomes actually more adult learning focused on the way they train people after that. And a lot of people don't realize that now commanding control. Absolutely. And everybody thinks that it is very high archeo. There is respect to change of command, and it has to be that way. Um, and I think they've done a good job with that, Uh, but it didn't shave me, And part of that is to the units that I got into, you know, in a military intelligence unit, you know, with small 56 man teams that are out, you know, by mission. Anyway, long range surveillance. This is before drones. And so that was human intelligence. Were hiding under a rock on a high point with binoculars on the radio. You know, there's people out there right now going. There was a time that there was before drones? Yes, there, actually, I like to call it. I was I was in the days, uh, you know, before GPS and before, you know. I mean, there, you know, is old. I mean, we weren't too far from Vietnam, Eric here. I had an atlas in a plot. I had a I had a plot map as well, so I understand. Yeah. I literally had a compass and a map and land navigation and terrain and darkness, and you're moving at night, you know? So it was a real community of team effort. There was no, I mean, there was obviously somebody in charge of team leader, and there was ranks, you know? And so everybody is pretty much a sergeant. Then you had the commanding officers and all that, but when we were out in the field in the teams, there wasn't I mean, you were. We were we were a group had to operate as a team, and rank really didn't matter. Rank only really matters. You know when when there has to be decisions made in orders given, you know, by who's ever in charge of that. But the military does a good job, and I don't know. Everybody realizes that at least my experience in the infantry in the Army is that they do a really good job of ensuring that every soldier can complete the mission. They want every soldier to know the mission, the success, what the objective is. And that way, as people get picked off with sniper fire down the ranks, that last soldier that might be a private E one that's 18 years old holding a rifle. He still knows what the objective is, and he doesn't know how to get back. You just got to meet the objective so you know, there's there's, I think, that it's not as controlling as it may seem, you know, political structure. Absolutely. You know, the authoritative, you know, command and control. Absolutely. But the way that they actually train and educate once that you're you know, everybody knows to salute. Everybody knows that pecking order. And that's ground in from day one. But when you get into learning your job, when you get into learning your tasks and as as depending on what group you're in, I would imagine, but from my group Anyway, I had a lot of Special Forces guys, a lot of ex special forces. A lot of So it was very much small team tactics and it was not Hey, you guys stand to attention and all that. It was All right, gentlemen, gather around, you know, And we'd all gather around, kind of like in a huddle, and everybody's pretty equal, you know, Everybody had a job to do. Everybody had their their role, and it was managed in that way. And so I think the learning process, in my experience, the military a little different than maybe others. So I we didn't come out from a 20 year career of, you know, 8 to 5 very much by the book very much. Here's the procedures, and here's this, and and people that are you know, you have to be in the military to be that in that kind of mindset, you know, I mean, look at, uh, anybody that has that kind of personality or the way they like to organize their work, organize their things. Mine was all chaos. It was all, you know, You don't know where an ambush is going to come from, you know? I mean, it was very nimble, very dynamic, very on the fly, if you will. You know, uh, and I think that that real experience of you know, kind of the idea of being behind enemy lines with very little fire support. You know, some of those kind of ideas that really put you on. You know, when you look at the art of war and classic, you know, military tactics, you're putting people on death ground. In other words, there's only two routes. You neither succeed and live or die, you know. I mean, there's really no middle ground. That's the only time that I would truly say failure is not an option. Fender is not an option. No, it's not. And the military is very good at putting especially frontline combat troops in that, you know, position and the thinking of the programming of the training. You know, that would say, you know, your training will kick in and it does. I mean, it's automated. You don't even realize you could be the most panicked, you know, and and and and worry, But you're kind of you're you're almost like muscle mental memory. You know, I remember jumping out an airplane, Canada, and it was cold getting my Canadian jump wings and got my boot caught in the apex of the parachute from the guy below me And, you know, and it's cold and we're starting to get tangled up. And so, you know, I just pulled a right diagonal slip as far as I could, you know, and and dumped there and tried to veer that. And then the process is you run off their shoot. And so I basically pulled that slip, got the air to try to pull me away. I was running off the acting like I was running bicycle and to try to get off that parachute. But, you know, I probably only had 10 jumps my whole career, so I mean, it was just the training takes over, and before every jump, we would go over things like that. So, you know, pre jump every time you practiced your parachute Landing Falls, PLF. You know, uh, the commands, the you know, all that stuff, checking everybody's gear, you know, four or five times jump masters, checking everybody, checking their mental awareness. So, you know, once you learned, you know, I was I was not there very long. And I was a younger ranking and, you know, a soldier. But, uh, the more as I aged and the more reflect back and the more I talked with other military people, especially been around for a long time, uh, the whole programming of the of the military machine and training education really became very, very clear. As a matter of fact, I'm using a lot of those documents on the on the C 4 90 committee to do the standard of of training for the profession and got a dynamite group for that. But but yeah, that's that's kind of How so? So I think the stereotype of a very structured, regimented, non yielding, you know, soldier or military person. You know, I think that that stereotype was true, but people confused, maybe regimented. You can't think you're almost like a robot with stoicism. And when a lot of the military practices is training you into in in stoicism. You know how to be a stoic and so that stoicism philosophy actually goes back to Roland How Romans train their militaries. And I'm gonna tell you that brings up the next grade point here. Because then you you you go into the career as you were talking about a little bit a little bit earlier. But then you start something here later down the road of safety philosopher, and it looks like it's an LLC. How do you How do you come about doing this? I mean, all of a sudden, do you say I want to bring Bullseye, say a different philosophy? Because that's really what it boils down to the industry. Yeah, I I think that you fast forwarded about 30 years. I'm not jumping that far because I I see the next thing That, of course that you did was environmental resource Center. Yeah, those are a little out of order. You must be linked in or something I've been I've been looking around some different things that I could find online. Of course I want to get into that. But I also want to get into. At what point do you decide that you want to become part of the N S. C s Ozark chapter? I mean, you took the director position there, right? Yeah, that was right After, I, you know, did the university of the adult. Ed and I had a private practice doing training, and then, uh, really one of my you know, first big mentors was less Reynolds out of Springfield, Missouri, that ran that chapter. And he was probably about 70 at the time. And a gracious, big hearted man, and he really took me under the wings. And And how do we teach all of his certification programs? So the NSC certification You look at all the advanced safety certificate, all those things they offer. Um, So I did that for him for a few years, and that got me into that, um, and then got dispatched down to Katrina. Uh, you know, for the disaster response, then, uh, so So, yeah, that was kind of a progression into, you know, doing private training, doing training on behalf of an SC for that chapter. Really getting under the wings of, uh, of of a generous, you know, Gandhi like figure of of Less Reynolds, Uh, late less, Reynolds and, uh, and my favorite story from him as he had to go get Elvis from the movie theater when Elvis was performing in town back in the day in the fifties. You know, he's a very nice, very nice You're probably Yeah, little things like that. But, uh, but anyway, and then and then after that, went to, uh, you know, do disaster work was called up with some people that that knew me. And I want to know if I do that. And Plus, I had clientele with consulting and private things as well, so kind of naturally progressed and then enter into the into the span years of exam prep and then now fast forward to your ear philosophy. That's really been a recent phenomenon for me over the last few years of really trying to think back to that philosophical approach to how philosophy mixes in with, you know, our profession and our practice, and just kind of drawing parallels to some of those kind of ideas and thoughts, too. How our ethics and how are profession can think through management systems and organizational learning and you know some of these things. And so I just found that to be kind of interesting to me at the time. So, you know, maybe there's a way I can bring it in and and maybe not. I got a session at NSC, I think called, You know, Socratic Safety, where I'm going to really talk about, you know, Socrates type approach of, you know, asking open ended questions and more active listening and not really jumping in with opinions but really letting the group form guide the group to formulate the right answer. And and that gets into facilitation. It gets into small group, you know, problem solving. And so there's There's a lot of ties to that early methodology, So it's just kind of a fun, different spin, maybe to put on you know how it's. I wouldn't say necessarily anything new, other than maybe just kind of a new paradigm or new lens to think about things in a different way. Well, let's let's let's talk about that then for a moment, because when you bring in a new lens or a new philosophy or are not something new as you're saying, but probably a different perspective of paradigm. People, of course, are going to say so how? Which way are you leaning? Are we talking about lean? Are we talking about behavior based safety? Are we talking about hop? Do you have any heavy influence? That kind of predicts which area you're going to go into or how do you look at it? Well, to me, it's a very holistic approach. I think all the things you listed are valid in and of themselves. And I think they're part of the makeup of a larger picture. Oh, that's such a political answer. It I'm not really It's really It's really how I see it. You know, I really I really like the progression of, you know, I did a lot of behavior based implementation back in the late nineties and early two thousands, and I also had to do a lot of clean up after him, You know, um, don't say that. Don't say that too loud. No, that's true ones, though, and that's not the whoever helped bring it in or consultants fall. I mean, just some sustainability of some of those programs, and depending on the organizational culture, you know, I mean, there's a lot that goes into that, Um, you know, But you know, I think that natural progression from there into thinking of a more again holistic way of a hops. You know, I think the hops idea is a little bit more comprehensive and inclusive in overall systems than behavior based itself. You know, that's not taking away from behavior based as a methodology and even look at the founders of behavior based. They said This isn't a silver bullet. This isn't going to fix everything. This is just a tool that we can rethink about how we we do safety. And it was done by psychologists who weren't safety professionals. And they were, you know, using those types of psychology methodologies which brought, you know, that back into it. You know, we lost a little bit of that from the humanistic in the sixties and then seventies, and we're the OSHA age and kind of put us back to compliance driven. But, um, but I think behavior based was kind of a rebound out of the compliance driven age of the seventies and early eighties, and then you had total quality management. You had all these other things going on. And so it was a real, I think, natural way for our profession to look at people and and not so much. Look at standard, which is a place, you know, the our profession was before the OSHA error in the way, but But anyway, that's that's kind of my thought on those. They all kind of come to it. They all have the thing. It depends on the organization. I can launch something like behavior based in one area goes over really well and get into another under the same corporate flag, for example. Even. And the culture of that location isn't maybe quite as mature as the other one. And you have to make adjustments or they may actually not be ready. I advise some managers I don't know that you're ready, you know, to to do this, you know, in a way. And we've had to modify a lot of those interventions in a way that would actually work because if you just crammed a, you know, a BBS thing or, uh, you know, a DuPont stop, you know, and I'm not knocking any of those programs. They were all pioneering programs, but, you know, there has to be that, you know, intimate touch with the local location and the people driving that those types of ideas. So I think that hops with the human angle. I think that's really open this up now into the bigger world of human performance improvement, performance technology. I think Dr Conklin and that group that has really kind of pushed that idea away from, you know, uh, more deep into the systems approach and not blaming the worker. And I can tell you, and I'm sure a lot of my colleagues in the professional tell you, you know, we find ourselves in a lot of position defending workers with management because it's a real quick, easy, uh, you know, why did they do that? Well, any idiot wouldn't do that, you know? And it's self evident, and it's like we're Monday quarterback and people, you know, Put yourself in the context of the fog of war, if you will, of that worker, unless really look at I guess I put it this way. And I think this is what hops really helps promote is something I've said the management more than once in that, you know, looking at the system, you know, because if we fire that employee and put another employee in that same system, that employee fails or we're going to fire them, too. In other words, if our first question isn't where did we as a management system fail? If that's not the first question, then we're I think we're heading down the wrong path, and I think that's where the system's piece that hops brings to the table and you look at, you know, Ron Gant, some of those other thinkers that are in that area in that space, I think that's where you know me and a different angle coming from an educational, you know, philosophical approach of epistemology. And how do we know what we know? And how do you ensure that you know, people know and are competent and those kind of ideas? Um, I think it kind of emerges a little bit with the human psychology and and some of those things the EI skills that are now really starting to, you know, the diversity, inclusion movements and a lot of these. We got the new standard that we're working on with mental safety and health from an international standard on that committee. So there's some of these things that are coming down the pike that I think we need a paradigm shift in, how we approach our profession and how what we're being asked to do and what really is our new role and function. And I see the research looking at that change or kind of given indicators of what that looks like over the last four or five years. So so I think we're starting. And that's where I guess I got the idea of, you know, I wonder if a philosophical lens or or framework might, you know, help tip a paradigm or open up or make people think things a little bit differently than they traditionally have been taught. Or they traditionally have thought in management schools and things like that. And it may be a total flop, J you know, I mean, I don't know, man, you know, it's an experiment, but I mean, you know, But let me ask. So do you start thinking about this before you go back for the third time back to university, back to college. In regard to this, are you thinking about this before you go back in 2014. So I think, I think, to to bring the context of 10 years of span into play here because that's about the difference in the timeframes you're talking and, you know, in owning span and designing example materials for people to pass the B C S P exams, you know, ch CSP all those different exams that forced me in a position of researcher. And so I basically had to research all those competencies, all the source documents, everything that the boards were putting on the exams and all that kind of stuff. So for 10 years, I was dove into research. And what's the meaning of safety? You know, what's the meaning of this? What's the competency of this? How do you measure that? And so it really put me in a position to where? After I emerged and sold span two years ago. Well, now what am I gonna do? So it's kind of one of those things, too, where you kind of have those moments in life where you can you know, What do I want to do now? You know? What do I really want to work on? What do I really want to have the opportunity to to serve in a way differently now that I had in the past. And what do we want that to be so after, Basically, and it happened to coincide a lot with Covid, too. So I took a lot of time at the cabin man and, you know, read a lot of philosophy and and really thought about how I could leave some of those ideas into a a little bit different spin on a narrative. And like I said, you know, it's It's an It's an experiment, You know? I've still got other projects and consulting work with with companies that that, you know, kind of paying the bills and do things. But But, you know, this is kind of a giving back, an exploration of of what might be because I have time and the resources to do that. Uh, so So that's kind of the the angle of what brought me to that epiphany or that thought process was, You know, I've just read a lot of different. I've read, you know, I read about every major textbook or book that's come out in the profession. I've got it on my shelves and I used it to design the curriculum for span two major competencies for an exam that are supposed to reflect the overall competencies of the profession. You know, You know how you know how many people are going to ask if their book major shelf. Now you know this, right? Yeah. You know, I mean, I could definitely I don't know if you want to open the Pandora's box. Yeah, well, let me put it this way. If I don't have it, I would be happy to get. You know, if you don't have it, you can millet to Yeah, if you know I'm not about that, but it's it's It's one of those things to where? Uh, yeah, you know, just because I don't have it on my show doesn't mean that it's, you know it doesn't doesn't doesn't equate to my perception of that particular piece of work, Let's put it that way is J Allen show. Hey, have you ever wanted to hear what's going on around in the world of safety and you're not able to do so? Have you ever wanted to take a listen to what exactly is going around in the world of safety. What if we called that thing around the safety pie we told you month over month what is happening in the mix? Would you care to know? What would it be worth to you? Now? Here's the fun part. Besides that, you can find out exactly what's going on inside of the world of safety. There's also other information available there. Stop this. You can start using as early as today. How about you give us a look? Go to our website safety FM plus dot com at safety FM plus dot com to find out what exactly is going on inside of the world of safety around the world of safety and inside of the worlds of safety. And don't forget to tell them that J. Allen since you I'll see you on the other side. You're to join the Revolution, and we are back on the J. Allen Show on Safety FM. So let me ask, Let me ask this real quick, if you don't mind. Yeah, as you're looking through all of the certifications that you have in degrees that you have during the time that you're going back to school to get your head the a D in regards. You decide to also at the same time go after your CSP. What's the reasoning? If you don't mind me asking Because I mean because you're you're going to one of the highest level educations that you can. So do you think that one offsets sets the other or you should have both. Or what's your thought process? Yeah, yeah. No, I love that just a little bit to correct my record. Now, I've had a CSP for a long time. I must have the last renewal that engages what you have probably, you know, somewhere around there. But no, I've had it for a long time. And as far as that goes, I get asked that a lot. Especially, uh, you know, with my work with span, I think in span I had 20,000 professionals passed their exams going through and using span materials that I've worked with. So So I've had the opportunity to really engage with a lot of professionals and a lot of you know, one on one in small venues, small atmosphere. And what I found is that I get asked a lot Should I go for an advanced degree Or should I get my credentials and and for me, I've always advised to get credentials if you you know, if you already got a four year degree than in the profession. And I think it's more valuable in the show and you can attain it a lot cheaper and a lot, and and and and it adds value to your portfolio. And so it's the difference of getting the interview or not, you know, And so we're putting the let and let me offer this to just because somebody has the letters after their name That doesn't make them all that, Uh So I agree. I agree with I've known PH. D. S and C S P s that I've fired literally because they're worth worthless. And I've known people that don't have a degree, one that are the best safety coordinator manager professional that you could ever hope to find, and and and And they're going to get, you know, some credentials that, you know, maybe don't require a degree because they just aren't going to go back 35 40 or have the resources to be able to go get a degree just to get a certain level of certification, so I don't think that really matters to me. What matters is when the rubber meets the road boots on the ground and what is a professional do, uh, and and how do they practice? To me, that's the most important thing. But I think those certification exams do push you and and it does make you realize I think the feedback I get from a lot is I don't realize how much I didn't know. And so that whole idea of really understanding the wide breath of of our profession, which is really a very inter disciplinary profession. We have hard sciences. We have the soft sciences. We talked to everybody in an organization we can move through an organization. When you look at our professional what our role and function is, it's very unique, I think, and and and within an organizational structure. And so I think, to have that credibility of letters after your name. If you're that good and qualify for it, then you should. It's a professional challenge, uh, you know, and and I think to look at it that way is good. So to me, to go back and get a doctor At 45 eight years old. It was really more of a passion for for for love, of learning, you know, And and not only that, I could put, you know, doctrine from my name, you know, And that way. That way, when I get deposed by attorneys and they call me Mr Schneider because that's Dr Snyder, I tell people it's that whole thing, like the first week after you get. It's like everybody has to call me doctor. And then after the first thing is like right, right, I Unless you're ignoring me, then it's like you have to call me doctor. Exactly. It's kind of almost Yeah. You know, I really take on that note what's interesting to me anyway. And you have one, too. But one of my early mentors was the great, uh, Dr Knowles, Dr Malcolm Knowles. And he was a leading pioneer and adult ed theory. And, uh, he was actually the University of Arkansas. I went to his funeral, Uh, but, uh, but basically, he was really He didn't like any of that. He he was all about adults being the same, especially in learning environment. And whenever you see his interviews where they called him Dr Knowles. He correct him and say, No, that's Malcolm. I mean, he was very, very humble with that, and I really I really take I really take note of that. I think that's a real respectful way for those of us that have earned a higher level degree, not too flaunted. I mean, you have it. People can see it. But to really overtly put it out there in a in a way other than to, you know, again, bring credibility to your presentation or your written work or or things like that. It's on your resume, but But I'm always. It's kind of like the engineers to, you know, and when somebody or anybody from any profession, it doesn't matter. Doctors, accountants, whatever. Hey, I'm so and so I have a professional engineer. I'm a doctor in a this or, you know it's, You know, those types of credentials yours. You ought to be proud of them, but at the same time, it's it's how you use them. It's how you actually use that knowledge you've gained. How do you really contribute back by having that certification or that academic degree? Or that you know, advanced degree of a doctorate. You know, I think if you're not doing those things to improve yourself and how you practice, you know, and it is really literally just for people to call you a doctor. You know, I think that's just kind of a misplaced opportunity, you know, for that. So I've always Yeah, you're right. When you first get it, you're proud. Like, man Dr Snyder, you know, Dr Allen, you know, and it is. And it made me feel good. And you've accomplished something that you know Not everybody can do. Um, whether it be resources, I mean, anybody can do it if they dedicate themselves to. It's not like, uh, you know. Yeah, You just have to have the time and the resources and the wherewithal to do it. Um, but at the end of the day, it does make you proud. It makes you feel good. And then you're right. After about a week of that, you're like, all right, I'm over it, You know? It's like it's like move forward, but a couple of things before I forget number one. I want to apologize. You've been certified as a CSB professional ever since 2000 and one. So I apologize for this. But in the information, then the other portion that I want to talk about the doctor and I have a very close friend of mine that he warned people to know how important it was. He hasn't hung in his bathroom next to the toilet. I'm sure you can figure out who that is, so Thanks. Yeah, exactly who. I'm sure he told me the same thing one time. You know, uh, but yeah, I probably had that same guy. Come speak early, and he got into this profession back in the, you know, speaking part of it. Uh, back in the early two thousands, I brought him to the conference of the Ozarks. When I was still in there, uh, safety council there. I was the chairman of that That conference that wrote local conference and and and I had just, uh you know, I I just took a while. I saw the guy once, and I took a while, throw out there and then, you know, and then and he came up with it. So So I don't know. We may or may not be talking about saying I'm pretty sure we are. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. So tell me some changes that you're seeing inside of the industry. I mean, you're doing a lot of different work right now. I know that you're doing some stuff with the A S S P as well. I know that there is a pretty big vote coming up as well as we're taking a look. So what's going on in your neck of the woods? You know, I think I think you know the overall. And the next thing that's in the profession, I think a lot of people are still obviously reeling, and everybody is tired of the cliches. Excuse of Covid. But But it is a profound event. Um, you know, as far as overall societally, it's it's really, you know, really shaking something's up. So I think it is an opportunity for I think, a lot of professionals to really kind of in this shaky ground of I think the simplest way for me to put it with the profession anyway is it seems like, you know, all of a sudden overnight, every safety health professional is expected to be an infection control specialist, and I don't know that we were really ready for that, per se, you know, And when companies started really leaning on us in a profession in a in a way that we had never really been trained for prepared for, uh, you know, I mean, some of us probably had disaster response, training or business continuity, planning or emergency planning. You know, we do all those things, but for the event of covid with how that has unfolded, that's pretty pretty unprecedented. You know, I know we did some pandemic work when I was part of the NIH s when we did some simulated mega disasters. You know, like somebody puts a dirty bomb in Philadelphia. You know, that was a fun exercise, you know, about 303 100 responders in the city. And it was going about his business. Nobody knew anything, but it was a simulated. Just to be clear, for those that were really make sure we're clear one more time. It was simulated simulated event here, you know, but But you know, that kind of planning, You know, that pandemic idea? We did a little bit of it with animal disease, you know, as far as aggro terrorism and how how our food supplies could be impacted. Um, and and And a lot of was all academic, I think from at least what I was involved with, I'm sure they did a lot, you know, basically the response plan that came up with the feds that they came up with, Uh, you know, about a year about two or three years ago. I believe, uh, it was really, really solid, I think, to to address those things. But the rollout was tough, and I think the rollout in our particular profession I think we kind of in some ways got got caught caught unprepared because there wasn't a whole lot of professional development around a covid like event. We all kind of knew about it. You know about SARS, Ebola, you know, Spanish flu. You know, academically, I think we all have some level of epidemiologist in us or at least contract with it. But to actually think through a full event, you can never be 100% prepared. You know, I've worked with emergency rooms and hazmat stuff, and, you know, these people are just very, very dynamic. But you get into a whole organization this wonder they can't get parts to make their product. You know, the whole upstream, downstream issues that came with it. The sickness is the, you know, the mega spreaders cos you know, what do we want to do? So we have this cancel this. And so I think it really put us at dis equilibrium for a long period of time. And I think through that dis equilibrium, we're going to start finding ourselves to get into some sustainable level of, of equilibrium on on certain things. And I think that's come out of this. The idea of, you know, inclusive inclusivity and diversity has been a real one. That's that's kind of come out to one of the four fronts. And and I think it's something that's been very much neglected in our in our profession. You know, that idea of mental health, and there's a lot of reasons for that. Insurance companies, lawyers. There's a lot of reasons for that. You know where that's been, kind of, uh, I don't think been brought to the to the forefront. It's not something that this country in particular is very good about doing. I'm always pleased J. by the way that you support the suicide prevention and awareness. I do the same. I think that's a major thing. And I think we've We've seen that with this event. So some of that psychological safety, mental and health, uh and then that kind of blends into that idea in some ways of diversity. Inclusion in that you have to be empathetic to these plights, you know, to these realities. And how do we really do that? And so you start really seeing the movement now with some of our psychologists that are really being more prevalent on the, you know, linked in and and really starting to throw more psychology in there because that's what people are dealing with right now. Um, you know, we we we know about machine guarding, you know, we know about lock out, tag out. You know, we we know all these things and I'm being very general here. But to really get into the to the real deep under lanes, underpinnings of of what's happening from a psychological perspective in a social perspective and uncertainty, this level of uncertainty, I think the paradigm shift that is created, as I think professionals have been forced to really look at a broader scope deeper into the soft science, deeper into the emotional intelligence side of things. Um and really being able to x and part of that J I think it's experiential learning. In other words, you learn by experience, you know, I mean, we can all we can all imagine what it be like to be shot at, but unless you have, you know, So So I think that idea of you know, that mental shift and as far as SSP, you know, they put together Diversity Inclusion Committee, and they're really looking at this on how we can put this out and quite honestly, the more I've started to kind of explore this, Um and it really goes back to a lot of ethics and and things, But, um, it does. It does make us pause. And I have found things reflecting on my practice and and kind of awareness on things that just honestly, we're just naive oversights, missteps. You just the things that are coming out now that are issues that impact negatively and positively issues of diversity, inclusion. I think some of the more tangible, actionable ideas and things are going to be generated from that because it's a big thing, man. It's a big element to try to tackle, and I don't know that we weren't. I don't think we're all prepared for early, and I think we're all fighting through that to make meaning of it. And I can tell you that from the standard side and some of that, we're gonna start seeing more of those ideas integrated into the standards. Uh, it's much more so on the international standards. But you're looking at it now with, you know, involvement. You know, those ideas that have always been part of a management system employee involvement. Okay, well, what's employee involvement on the safety committee? You know, and I think that we're starting to expand, expand our ideas about what is a collective learning organization, and, you know, how do we learn? How do we listen? How do we create an environment where people feel safe and secure? Wanna work can do their best, you know, and all that. You look at the remote things where people are getting called back into work, and they're like, Man, I've been able to do this from the house from the last, you know, six months. I don't want to go back to that cubicle, you know. And so I think that there's this, you know, shift of what Does it really mean to be a professional and not have to show up? Perhaps in an office? 9 to 5. And I've had some that I have struggled with that earlier. But I find now some seem like they can actually accomplish a little bit more because they're not getting whittled down throughout the day with, you know, uh, five minute putting fires out. Um, so So I don't know. I think I think our our profession is changing, but I think it's mirroring the the overall change in society and and the workforce. And and I think that that's where we have to start thinking a little more and back to your earlier question. I think that's where the idea can be expanded into hops and where again, that gets into a bigger philosophical idea of, you know, you know, culture, you know, safety, culture. And that's metaphysics. You know? What's it mean to be part of this culture? What's this culture mean? What's the reality of this working environment. What's the reality of the organization? And so I think organizations are changing. Uh, there's also pushes from investors. You know, when you look at the financial sides of business acquisition, where they're starting to really look at, safety is a lead indicator and environmental issues as lead indicators on whether or not a businesses is suitable for acquisition, merger? Um, and part of that, I think, especially if it's a European or foreign business, they're going to really want to know what they have as far as, uh, employee assistance programs, which is what we kind of always looked at. But I think we're going to see more of an overall wellness, uh, you know, health health, side of things that are beyond chemical exposure that are beyond ergonomics that are beyond Yeah, I think we're gonna I think it's a welcome thing to look at some of these mental states, and it's in our literature, you know, from way back. But I don't think it's really been brought to the to the table as a as an acumen that we need to be versed in until until this point. Well, let's unpack some of the stuff that you just said right there. And if you don't mind, let's kind of just backtrack just a small bit. When you reference that you're seeing a kind of a larger change on the international side, it makes me think automatically of ice. Oh, 45,000 and one changing the fourth, actually advancing to ice. Oh, 45,000 and three. Do you think that this would be something that will be readily accepted throughout the industry now that it has a psychological safety, peace and quite honestly, yeah, I think that I do. That's an excellent point. And I think that, you know, this was actually started before Covid, too. So I mean, these are things that are just all of a sudden well, no different than the Z 4 90.2 virtual training that we completed right before the year before Covid hit. And now everybody's doing virtual stuff. And so actually we kind of got serendipity on a few of the standard, you know, things have been how did you know? How did you know? Well, you know, a lot of times in the woods alone and focused on nature got in tune with the universe Um And so I think that I think there was a lot. Well, to answer that in honesty, I think there was. There's a lot of forward thinking thought leaders in our profession that have led the way before we had to have it and lead the way. And this event happened before I think it went to some full level of of implementation. But with that said to your point, I don't know that we would have had the audience or the interest in those standards or the support for those standards. If not for the covid event globally, uh, they actually we put together an emergency public available standard on covid that that that they were pushing from is so to say, you know, we're going to do this. And we had some reservations, you know, from the committee on our side. Uh uh, and and you know, some of it was we can't call anything over their face. PB That was kind of where we drew the line in the sand. You know, we said, Look, you know, that's not gonna work for us. You know, there's other things that make us uncomfortable, but that's that's kind of one that we've got to really kind of push back on. So then it came to face coverings, right? Because face coverings, a gator, a handkerchief, you know, just kind of a cloth you bought on the Internet. That's really not pp. And we felt that that ought to be distinguished. You know, we're not saying this wrong and not to do it, but let's be careful not to misrepresent what those two barriers, you know, are. And so I think those were some examples, But quickly they put out a temporary, emergency, sterile public standard out just for guidance, and and so that was probably the quickest. I think they put that out in, like, three or four months. And I think that's the quickest Isis ever turn around anything, you know, uh, to make this happen. And it was a global. Everybody was involved, you know? We even had the French involved, man. Everybody was involved, you know, with that. I guess so. And the and then the French lead the way, and some of those ideas of of, uh, you know, work life balance and some of that. So that's kind of a European way of thinking of work, and I think we need to rethink how we do some of that for for the the mental ideas. So, yeah, I think it is going to get some tailwind. I think there there is going to be a push in a want and a desire for some of those standards, uh, and and and a real hunger for guidance documents. You know, for example, when the CDC put out when Dr Howard put out that hierarchy it controls for covid, you know, I mean, on a talk for a S S P. I think it was maybe his NSC, but anyway, he put that out there, and everybody was like, Yes, this is the kind of tools we needed safety professionals to To be able to go back to our employers and the people we serve and and really say we have this plan. And this is this is not me, the local safety guy making this stuff up, man, you know, this is the entire profession. I think this whole leaning on the entire profession is something that we could do better at. Not everybody's thrown island. And, you know, I think you know a few people have said keen people that have been, he thought. Leaders have always said, You know, I'm not anything new, you know? I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. In other words, there were several people before us that laid the groundwork to where we are now. We just happened to be the ones picking up the baton right now. And I think that leads into, you know, some of us in our, you know, prime of our careers. 50 plus, you know, we've got to be thinking about what legacy and how are we going to mentor and and make things better for the emerging safety professionals that are coming out of, you know, four year programs and safety, which in my time getting in 30 years ago didn't hardly exist. So anyway, there's there's all that done back too far. No, you're good. Now here's my Here's my next question, though, with everything changing so rapidly to to an extent, even though there's been some serendipity into the whole thing. Have you thought about doing another pocket guide for essentials for now, you know? Yeah, we're the National Safety Council, and we were talking about that right before all this hit and and it kinda has has been, you know, put on the backburner. I haven't, you know, pursued it. Uh, and NSC hasn't pursued it either. I think everybody's kind of got bigger fish to fry. And plus, you know, they tend to let the author, you know, initiate some of those things too. Well, I mean, I think that it's perfect time because there's so many things that you can add now. Oh, that essentials book that I wrote. I remember one of the 2014 or something like that. Yeah, there's a lot in there that I'd like to redo and make it, you know, a little bit more. No, no, this this becomes the second version or the third version, Not not the second edition. But, you know, the continuation to it is it is Well, you know, second, I think it's a condition. Now would be the third edition, But you're right. We just basically build on the work. And I think, and I know for a fact all the things that we've been talking about so far today are touched in that. And so, you know, I've I've grown a lot professionally. I'd like to thank in six years, and I think everybody should think of it that way. And so when I and and by the way, I'm my worst own critic, Jay. I mean, I had nothing I put out there. I feel I think it's all crap. You know, garbage people read something, man. Man, that was really good. I think of myself as trash. I missed this or miss that. You know? I mean, I'm very, you know, driven for myself. I'm very I hopefully, but no one and, you know, don't expect that of everybody, but for my own self, I'm very, um I'm not very. I'm not satisfied with my own work. Hardly at all. And so, you know, deadlines come throw it out there, you know, you get it. And there's always a piece of me that lingers. That says, man, I wish I had more time on that. But during the club, I've always sought after mentors in my career. And I think that's some advice that I found very useful early and and was able to experience it early. And I think that, you know, everybody thinks of mentoring our mentorship as you know, an old dog, you know, an experienced person with a younger, non experienced person. And that's not really true. Um, you know, I've had mentors that are right now I've got a few mentors that are that are in their twenties because I need to understand a little bit more about that. That group, uh, even though my kids are in that group. But you know how that is, you know, But I mean that perfect. Yeah, it's called the powdered, but syndrome. You can't take advice on somebody who's you powdered there. But before I totally understand exactly well, like my dad told me. He said, I've always loved you, son. But, you know, from the age 13 to 23 I didn't like you very much because the father I can attest to that. Now I get what Dad said. I don't let them ever listen to this episode. At least not this abortion. My friend knows, you know he's 22 so he'll be 23 this year. So he's, uh, he's almost out. He's almost out of it. We're both out of the dumb things. I may not be as dumb now, he may not be as dumb. Now, I think we're coming to some reconciliation here. But but But I think and then also mentoring among your peer group. I mean, to me, a mentor, somebody you think is going to help you Almost like a coaching way. Coaching is a different tactic, and in some ways, but some coaching methods, you know, definitely go into good mentoring. Um, and and it usually is just the idea of somebody who does know something more than you are more experienced than you, um, that you might be able to learn from, and And so, you know, I've always been open to try to find and seek, you know, even if it's not necessarily formal. But you you look at those people that and either inspire or they know something that you want to know, or or they perform in a certain way that, you think is just Wow, that was really impressive. Uh, and I think that those are the people that we kind of reach out to in different phases, and some some of them might be lifelong mentors to us, you know, Uh, and then towards the end, you might find that your mentoring them? Uh, but But that idea of always seeking out other people like a you know, Star Group, if you will. That kind of informs you and you can bounce things off of and and I think that's helpful. Uh, in a career, it's the It's the reasonable, pure doctrine in ethics. So if I'm struggling with something, you know, Jay is another professional and and you might be totally removed from the scenario, right? So I could just give you a call and say, Hey, Jay, here's my situation, man. What do you think of that face value? And you have no real emotional ties to the situation that you know, I may be clouded and you're gonna say, You know what? And here's what you might consider, you know, And you're actually consulting and mentoring in a way of, of of you know what? What your take is on that Well, if I were to call four or five professionals and four out of the five said, you're going down the wrong path, man, you know, I need to look at that. And at the same time, if if all of them are pretty concurrent saying no, that's actually I think that's probably how I would handle that, you know? I mean, that's that's a tough one. So So I think that idea of having and I think that's what we're missing, by the way in our live conferences is the networking. That's why everybody went. And I think that that mental health of being amongst peers that are all fighting the same battles for different companies that we can when we all sit down for a beer, you know, we can actually debrief and decompress and joke around and talk about stories. And that's when Pierre Reasonable Pierre comes in. Oh, yeah? Well, I had this one manager. I had the supervisor and, you know, and then somebody might say, You know, I had a guy like that and here's what worked for me. You know, we're missing that, and I don't think that, you know, that's that's tough to capture, you know, or or when you know, I've given a conference session and and you know, afterwards, you know, people come up and and want to talk with you, and and I've had some good conversations walking down the hallway with people that are asking certain questions that they felt that I could help them with our ideas. And and And I miss that, um, or I've grabbed people have done the same thing, You know where. Hey, Hey, Jake. Can I walk with you down your next session? Yeah. Come on. Hey, I got a question. What microphone you use, man, I know you're doing this for a living, so, you know, help set a guy up. Uh, so So I think that that's something that's important for for not only our learning and our collective sense of our profession, but I think it does serve as a mental hygiene opportunity to be with with with the peers that are in the same boat, because, you know, it's phenomenon. It's a phenomenology. You know? What's the phenomenon of being a safety and health professionals and only those that are in and know that phenomenon And and so to not have that outlet of some of the local live meetings where you haven't seen, you know? I mean, we go to these conferences every year, and I may only see these people once a year, but for five days were best bodies, man you know, I mean, it's just you catch up, you, you know, you do all that and and there's only so much of that that can linger in a real tangible, visceral way in a virtual environment. So I think that's something that that were also missing, uh, and suffering from, um, But there's some new cutting edge technology that's coming out that I'm working on now, as far as this idea of blended and virtual and really trying to bring the essence of of some live, you know, into, uh, this type of platform, you know, a virtual platform. Because I'll tell you, as an educator, there's a lot of benefit to it. I mean, I can do a lot. I can do things with this technology that I could never do live no different than there are a lot of things that you can really only capture live. Uh, that's really, really tough, if not impossible to replicate, you know, in this platform. But that's kind of the That's kind of the vision I have. And I had it as a matter of fact when I went through my masters that have been told edge in the nineties and I was having all these real epiphanies of Wow, there's theories and there's this author. I dove deep and I was reading all the way back to Confucius on I'm learning. But But basically, you know, I always envisioned it and we're doing futuristic stuff. We had some future speakers that said, Yeah, how long do you think it's gonna be until everything's virtual all the information you know, in this information age? Now you gotta understand. This is mid nineties. This is nine. I mean, Windows 95 had just that was revolutionary. That was the life changing event. There's, like, 95. And so, as we were talking about Windows 95 I mean, that's when we went from carrying around big old cases of acetate overheads and a big power projector and screen. You know, I I did those days, and I saw the transition into a laptop and a digital projector and power point. And so when that hit in 95 that was when I was in my masters for adult Ed and and and we really thought about what is the implications of this technology from an educational perspective? How can it be used. And so all the things we were daydreaming about, what the future could look like in this room for education, what it meant to education and training technology has caught up, and I think now the demand for it with the covid event has forced the issue. And so I really feel that our predictions then we're pretty accurate were saying 20 to 30 years and we're at 20 you know, 25 years from then and and so we're now seeing the things that we're talking about, the potential 20. Okay, so So I have to ask the question, Are you going to be testing this? Um, this this new technology with a large makeup company first, You know, that is one that I kind of figured I kind of figured, Um and I'll tell you what, J it is amazing. I mean, the things we are able to do with that group of professionals internally and really building a collective intelligence and really building a a library or, uh, a resource center. When you look at informatics, you know, how can you place information and retrieve information? And so when you look at, you know the challenge always has been, you know, how do you get that consistency and safety training? By and large, it's just horribly unstructured, informal. And companies, you know, I would challenge any company to lay the current Z 4 90 down and see if they felt they were in conformance with it and best practices of training. And just wait until the committee gets done with the new one coming out next year. Because we're I mean, we're researching that out of it, and it's gonna be a really, I think, the best standard ever. But it's going to push the envelope because those training education systems stop at pre test post test that mean nothing. They stop at sign in sheets, which means nothing, and they stop it. You know, there's no measurement of learning. There's no repository of knowledge when it comes to safety and health and every new person that comes into the safety rules reinventing the wheel and you might see reinventing the wheel happening within a fleet between facility A facility be facility C. So this and and that was because there just wasn't a way to time together. Well, there's a way to tie all that together now. And so the idea of a one stop shop for a real knowledge center, a true knowledge center within an organization when it comes to all things E h and s. That's something that I think is within reach for sure now and And we're on the press with that. And also, I'll say this. Everything ties back to education, communication and training. You look at every standard, you look at everything. They all site back to Z 4 90 as the pinnacle one, uh, standard that ties it all together. And so you can't have this that or the other without talking about it, communicating it, effectively getting by in, you know, all those are communication skills and all those are part of training and education in a way. And so I think that is going to change the way that professionals really look at training, you know? Well, I'm a trainer. I went to an OSHA authorized trainer course. Well, yeah, they do some adult head stuff there, and it's a good program for that. But that doesn't capture a full learning design, you know, that goes from how are you Measuring? This is a valid is a reliable statistical significance on things. None of that's happening in the training education piece of our of our business that I'm aware of not very well anyway. And so that whole idea of bringing this comprehensive room and then it bleeds out into the rest of the management team, too. So everybody has a dashboard. Everybody knows what's going on. Everybody knows what the role and involvement is. So it's kind of that ideal that Dr Peterson talked about back in the eighties about this, you know, complete involvement. This idea of, you know, he was one of the first ones, really right that it's not the safety guys job. It's management's job, you know, and and and that was in literature a long time ago. And still we have professionals today that are basically being used to run around with their hair on fire, putting out safety concerns that, quite honestly, our operational things. And so when I you know, I've been called into the CEO's office before, too, you know, they're griping about the work comp dollars, and they're griping about the incident rates and the ocean log and all that kind of stuff and telling me. I gotta fix it. And I've looked at I just looked at him and say, Look, man, you're asked. Well, let me. There was one that that I did this route. I said, Well, that's pretty cool. Or do we? When do we sign the paperwork? And the guy looked at me like, What are you talking about? I said, Well, for to do the things you're asking. That means I'm now the owner of this company. So and I can imagine the moment of freaking out that it was on their face at the moment that you said that. Yeah, Well, what's awesome is I was an outside, you know, third party consulting those contracted into, you know, because they got rid of their safety people and didn't think they needed them. And then a year later, all their numbers were whacked up, so they hired me temporarily to until they could fill the role. So I had nothing to lose, man. I mean, I'll get in my truck and go home. You know, if you don't want me here, I don't I'm not gonna sugarcoat stuff, you know? I am an infantry guy after all, but you know, but, you know, with with hopefully some some tact. But at the end of the day, it was like, You know, you're you're asking me to be responsible and accountable for numbers and things I have no control over. And I think that's kind of the pushback that, you know we're starting to see come into the conference processions over the last five or 10 years. You know that this idea of you know, what's our job and role and function? What's the rest of management's role and function? And it takes everybody to have a real systematic approach to safety. And a lot of companies have talked that talk. But when you really get down to operations on the ground, you know, I've still had a lot of where. Well, that's your job safety guy, you know? No, not really. Welcome to the cultural change. Well, Daniel, I want to ask you if people want to know more information about you and what you have going on work and they go out to find out more. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm on linked in, you know, I think that's a good thing. And trying to be more active and really be involved there. And then, uh, my website for the company that I'm working with now that's doing the learning design and all that stuff is is safety mentor. So safety mentor, dot com or or linked in and and that's where people can can get more reach out to me. Well, paying you, I truly do appreciate you coming on to the show today. Hey, I'm very welcome for the invite. You have really enjoyed it and I really liked the work you're doing. Oh, thank you. We need to do this again at some point.

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[01:10:25] spk_1: Examples of analysis

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[01:10:31] spk_1: solution available as they are

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