She also explains how she got herself out of her lowest financial point with some finesse and grit, and the mindset that got her through it all. We’ll also hear about her mentors and the resources that have separated her from the pact, and helped define her as a fearless outlier in the property world. Who needs luck when you've got brains, grit and a passion? 

Join us as she tells you how to take the reins and set new boundaries of possibilities in your life.

[00:04:31] hang on a second, I can actually subdivide this and put a new mini boarding house on the back of it.

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re continuing our conversation with property developer Vivienne Halliday. She shares how she improved her income by 50% by turning a standard development into an investment that generates five incomes. We alo hear how she saved her mother from losing her house, and explore her fearless mindset that helped build her success. 

While the queen of renos has built up an impressive portfolio, she’s decided to move on from building, and delve into the next stage of her career. 

Vivienne Halliday 

[00:00:17] I'm sort of going into my next phase of trying to get higher growth, higher income. So I've sold two last year, and I'm actually selling another one this year. So I used to have probably about eight, eight in the portfolio. Anything that wasn't performing as well as what I wanted, I sort of sold down, if I'd sold it another year later, it would have been really, really great, but you get that it's just the way the property's market goes. And, yeah, so I'd sort of collected quite a few along the way as buy and holds, always waiting for that market to go up. And so never really, the rents never went up in that area, or the market didn't go up in that area. So I've actually been a lot more focused on actually creating the return more so at the moment, which is what my mini boarding houses have been doing. So I've sort of changed focus a little bit in the last little while. I've always been quite successful, you know, the ones that I sold, I would have made 100 - 150 each time, but you know, there's always been that one or two that haven't sort of quite worked out, as you say, but that's part of the process. 

She explained how selling some of her properties gave her better borrowing opportunities. 

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:02:13] It just sort of meant that borrowing ability was better. So I could actually borrow more to get back into the ones that I wanted to. And pay down some of the debt that I had. I know, friends of mine have said they wouldn't be able to sleep at night, if they had the amount of debt that I had. I don't see it as that. I just see it, as you know, it’s just the cost of doing business. I've got this property that covers that, and I've got income that pays for it. So it doesn't really worry me, because I know that I can always deal with whatever comes along. It's, it's, you know, like, if something breaks, I can fix it, people still need to rent houses to live in. So it's not like, I'm investing in something that nobody will ever want. They're all in good areas, you know, that sort of thing. So it's never been a problem that way. But yeah, like, I suppose you'd need to put yourself in a position that you can keep moving forward. So that's why I was selling them down.

Tyrone Shum    

With the amount of experience Halliday has, you’d assume her aha moment happened early in her career, but surprisingly it was with her most recent development. 

Vivienne Halliday 

[00:03:47] I had been struggling trying to find my next deal. And I'd also been looking for something that I could retrofit to any boarding house. So that means that it's a council approved house. So it's a residential house that you can rent separate rooms, and they'll be self-contained, which is a really big thing with COVID, having little separate rooms and things. And I've been looking quite hard for this property to renovate. And I came across a property that I automatically thought: yeah, I can renovate this into a mini boarding house. And I'm going: hang on a second, I can actually subdivide this and put a new mini boarding house on the back of it. And I go, I'm just not looking big enough, you know. So it was just looking at what was available and seeing the different things that you can make out of a property. And it was all you know, like looking at things differently.

Tyrone Shum  

Halliday continues to break down the ins and outs of her most recent development

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:05:20] So these are still residential properties, and they're still in a house, but you can rent the rooms separately. And there are specific rules around them in Brisbane. I think you can do them in the Gold Coast as well in a few other areas. But this is walking distance to trains, buses, pub shopping centre, like it was in a really good position. For people that just wanted to rent a room. Sort of it has, it's quite a large room, it's not like you've got a little tiny area and you can't swing a cat in it. You've got room for a sofa and so it's quite comfortable. 

Like, if I was sort of young, again, I would just think this was the greatest thing to rent, you know, reasonably priced, you don't have to worry about anything, and you've got your own space. Instead of like, in the day having to share with a whole lot of people just to pay the rent in an old rundown house. So this is a lot nicer. And I sort of feel good about, you know, providing that to the market.

I'd love to delve into this a little bit more. So you're buying an existing residential property. And because it can be zoned or converted into a sort of a mini boardinghouse? How many people can you actually put into these?

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:07:01] So that one there, I actually just renovated and sold. I actually did retrofit to another property that I already owned. But, yes, so the rules are a maximum of five in that property, so whether you have a couple in one room and three other rooms of singles. Or whether you have five separate ones, or whatever, but you can have more than five has to do with their insurance plus It's just council rates, it's classified as a  1b ? 

While the properties are subdivided, they each have their own facilities 

Vivienne Halliday    

[00:07:49] They all have their own bathroom, and especially like during COVID, and things like that, like, people didn't like sharing, if there’s sort of all these people in the one spot. And I know that was an issue and hard to sort of stop the spread and things like that. So to provide them with their own facilities, they can, you know, there's no oven or anything like that, but who needs an oven these days you have a microwave or, you know, airfryer or something like that. Or, you know, half the people don't cook these days anyway. 

So it just meant they can have a table and chairs, your own ensuite , something, you know, couch TV and their own bedroom. And I try and fit an outdoor area. I think that's what Young has done with his, so it was actually him that sort of turned the light on for me because [00:08:50] I was looking for a property and, I sort of hadn't quite clicked [00:08:59] I was just trying to buy a property and retrofit it. Whereas he was sort of saying no, create the equity in it, which is what I ended up doing by subdividing.

Just how large are these rooms in the house?

[00:09:27] on the retrofit was about six by four. So about 24. Sometimes they're smaller. Sometimes they're bigger.

So they resemble a one bedroom studio?

[00:10:06] Pretty much like a one bedroom studio, but in a normal house. I think people like to have their own little space these days, and they're all kept up to code. So you know, you've got your fire safety and all that, you know, and a bit of soundproofing so that you're not going to blast the neighbour out with a TV, that sort of thing. So you have got, you know, livability. 

Tyrone Shum    

You might be wondering just how long something like that takes to build.

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:10:53] I'd say the whole process probably took about three months, maybe maybe longer. Because like, you've got to get those plans and get it certified. And the reno probably only took about two months. But the other stuff does take a while. And not everybody knows what to do with it's quite an involved process. There's lots of… it was the hardest reno 've ever had to do put it that way.

We find out if all the hard work was worth it and if she ended up making a good return?

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:11:56] It basically changed almost by 50%, the income was, so it really made a big difference. And I've only just sort of had it fully rented since Christmas. So I'm still seeing what sort of difference the expenses are making on it, but so far, it hasn't really made too much difference. So you can have a family of five or eight, you know, like, they were going to use more power and water. So it's not necessarily going to cost more, but sometimes it will, these ones are all air conditioned. So it's likely that in the middle of summer, they will use the air conditioner for long. Especially if they're not paying extra for it. So I will be looking at how that works. And whether we put solar on the top to cover that expense, that new one that I'm building has solar on it.

As Halliday said, one thing people tend to forget about is the expenses and responsibilities put onto the developer by the tenants. So how does she manage that?

Vivienne Halliday 

[00:13:19] I'm getting a property manager. I think it's quite involved in. I think there's lots of rules and things out there nowadays. I just prefer to have it in the hands of a good property manager, and I know that my property is being looked after then.  [00:13:58] Not every property manager will take that on. Because it is a lot more work. So there are special ones around that will actually do that. And they do a good job, too. So it's just a matter of asking around. If anyone wants to take me I'll certainly put them on the right path.

Tyrone Shum  

Life isn't perfect. Everyone hits a low point with seemingly no escape. But Halliday’s mindset and curious attitude pulled her through the tough times. 

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:14:50] I know what it was like when we were faced with ridiculous Interest rates [00:15:07] Yeah. So and I know during some of those times, it's, I've, I've got a bit of a, maybe a stops in strike, maybe I think Young would call it. But I'm certainly not easily dissuaded if there's something that, you know, like not having enough money for that interest, I always ask how can I? Not, you know, like, it's all too hard, you know, like, what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna be able to pay the rent. 

I just sort of went, well, how can I create more income? How can I, you know, what can I do with what I've got that can make a better use out of it? And most of the properties I've always looked at and gone: You know, like, how can I make this better? Or I suppose that interest rate one was a real sort of wake up for me. And that was when I was early 20s. So I've always looked at things as I went along, you know, like, how can I do it? 

Education also provided her many opportunities.

[00:16:17] I'd actually done a few courses on the way because like, I think the Reno kings came in, like, really early on and, and everybody said, Oh, Viv have you seen them? You have to go into that course, you know, which I did. And I actually ended up working with them as a bookkeeper and as event coordinator for quite a number of years. But yeah, so I absolutely loved that job. It was so good. And the voice was so good. I learned so much from them. So they were probably my first mentors. And they were like, I suppose in a way that was the renovation type that I actually learnt it was a real basic sort of rent or, you know, like, if you couldn't get $4, for the dollar you spend, you know, you don't do it. And that's really hard to get that sort of return. But yeah, yeah. So I was always sort of like looking for, I suppose, the edge and that, so I'm just trying to think of some of the bad experiences. 

Coming up after the break we will delve more into Halliday’s savvy mindset 

[00:19:06] if we had that little unit underneath and rented pretty much the whole house up the top, that I would get a full income coming in

The ways her mentors helped her

[00:28:25] I can't stress enough how much the education has changed and changed my life

The resources she used that helped get her where she is today

[00:29:39] you can plug in your properties and see what was going to be left at the end owing

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

Halliday explained further how she saved her mother and herself from their lowest point using nothing but brains and grit. 

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:17:51] My mom was living in the house, and I was living with my boyfriend at the time. So I was sort of paying a fair chunk of my wage into the house, you know, and so was she, but it was getting to the point that she had a second job, she was cleaning toilets. I was, you know, like, I basically was putting more money, and I had hardly anything to live off. I wasn't earning a great deal of money at that time. And we're just like, going, like, what are we gonna do with this? 

And when I was at the hardware, I noticed that there was lots of, you know, peach bars and, you know, like, vanities, that just weren't quite up to modern standards. And, and I sort of said to the guys, like, what if, if I sort of took these at a discounted rate, and you know, like, you know how to build and everything. But if I paid you to do some of the building and that for me, and that gave him an income. 

But then I could sort of see that if we had that little unit underneath and rented pretty much the whole house up the top, that I would get a full income coming in and mum would be able to live there for nothing. It would be able to pay the rent. So it was you know, like I said, suppose I learnt from that, sometimes if you look outside the square or ask questions or talk to people and see what they've done. Instead of digging up or putting your head in the sand and saying it's too hard. I don't know what to do. There's usually always a way out or there's always a different way of doing things that might be better. You know, like if you talk to somebody that's been there before, they might have their opinion and it might just flick that switch for you. That makes you think outside the box and solve your problem. 

Motivation plays a big part in being a dedicated developer, for Halliday it isn't just her passion for renovating that keeps her going. 

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:20:54] During COVID, I suppose I'm 60 next year. And my husband's been working two on two off for quite a few years over in Western Australia. But I suppose my daughter left to go to London, which she's sort of loving sometimes and not others can't get out over there at the moment. So you know, like the typical empty nester, but my mine went down to sort of almost just me. And I sort of like looked at it and not liking this too much. And then I sort of thought, Well, okay, my husband didn't even come home for three or four months, during COVID he couldn't get back, he had to stay in Perth, so he could keep doing his job. And I just sort of thought I'm really over this. Sort of over as being separated in life and again, it was, how can I? What can I do to make this work?  

And that's, you know, like, I suppose what I was looking for was something different to get income so that he could come home more. So he, hopefully, it's all sort of starting to fall into place now that he's actually got a part time, like, so a two on six off position coming up, by the end of the year. Which, you know, his wage will drop down, but the mini boarding houses are coming up. So it's sort of like, and that was my focus that was to get my family back together, you know, to get him home. Yeah, and just sort of get a life again. But you know in that process, I've sort of gotten a life anyway. 

When you're on your own, you need to get out and talk to people, so the property community is wonderful. We get together and we can actually talk about something that we're all passionate about. But I've sort of had to learn to put a few good things in, and not just property because otherwise you know, life sort of gets a little bit one sided.

Tyrone Shum    

Although they spend time apart, Halliday’s husband is happy to help her out with renos when he can.

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:23:41] He actually did have a couple of weeks off or probably about a month off while I was renovating one of the mini boarding house. So he got hands on with that. He doesn't mind, he just doesn't Yeah, like he's not passionate about properly. If I asked him to go and do something he’ll do it but he won't sort of you know, like go out and find deals or anything like that for me. But you know that I'm happy for him to help me on the reno, it’s certainly a lot less lifting I have to do. 

Tyrone Shum  

While Halliday has tradies to help her renovate, the passionate developer can’t help herself to pitch in.

Vivienne Halliday 

[00:24:26] I have tradies but I am a little bit too hands on. Because the more hands on I am the less time I have to focus on finding the deal. So I'm learning that less. I think I've been hit sort of by Young a few times like this, like you gotta focus on the most important thing and sort of not caring stuff for your tradies. So yeah, there's some things that I enjoy doing, you know with the Queenslanders and that I enjoy doing, sort of probably fixing up the little bits, like the catches and things like that I can see. I know how to fix them and make them look good again, save a few $100 here, there and everywhere. But I'm learning that a lot of stuff can be outsourced. So. And that just means more opportunity for me that I can just do more than one deal at a time. I can do two or three.

Tyrone Shum    

Along the way she’s had a few mentors, but there was one person in particular who she remembered fondly

Vivienne Halliday 

[00:25:34] Jeff Doyd. He's just passed away not so long ago, which was a shame. But he was such a lovely guy, and so generous with his time and his information. he'll be sadly missed. 

She shares the other mentors, who provided her with more than just advice, and gave her experience. 

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:26:03] I suppose I actually was with the Reno kings when they started property women. So you know, at that time, property women wasn't in existence. So one of the girls that was working with the guys sort of moved, said, like, we should get the girls together. And it was true, because I worked as event coordinators for both. And when the men were in the room, the girls wouldn't ask questions. It was actually quite funny. And yet, when the girls are all on their own, oh, my goodness, it was a totally different scenario. And they were prepared to be you know, like, you know, asking the stupid question and being vulnerable. Whereas they sort of probably wouldn't do it as much in front of... times have changed a little bit now. 

But the other thing was, the men didn't ask too many questions either because they didn't want to be seen as not to know everything. So it was really great fun watching the different sort of… I don't know, groups play out. So yeah, I did a lot of stuff with property women and we did some, lots of bus tours and things like that. So lots of fun. Bernadette Jensen is a great inspiration to me. Now. She's, I love watching her podcasts and that with the reno stuff.  She's just fun and lots of free stuff, that’s just amazing on there as well. But yeah, she's really good. 

But I suppose like when I got to that point that I really needed to, to step up and move on. That's when I looked for somebody that I actually thought could make a difference. I knew that I knew all the nuts and bolts, I knew I knew how to renovate. And I've done some subdivisions before. And again, this is where I don't give up, I was asked how can I? And that's what I thought, well, what is it that I'm missing? And that's why I looked for somebody that could help me with mindset, which was events, property strategies, and Young. 

But I think those are the major people that have helped me on the property journey. And it's, I can't stress enough how much the education has changed and changed my life, I suppose, but also saved me. So, so much, you know, like, just little little tips and tricks on that, that people have learned along the way, if you can take half of them on board, you won't have to make the same mistakes, you know. And I know remember, sort of like, when you go to do something, go no remember such and such, you know. So yeah, learning those lessons is really important.

She’s also read a few books and used resources to help her on her journey

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:29:18] I started off with Jan sommers. And I actually was around when Jen summers was still...  I think I was in Mount Iser and she came out to the golf club there. And I was just going oh my god, this is amazing. You can do all this with this property and had her PIA software, I think it's still going. Where you can plug your properties and see what was going to be left owing at the end, and what happens if you added another property to it. Loved it. So she was probably my first sort of first one that sort of like Turn the lights: you know, you can actually do this as a business or as a full time income. Which has pretty much done for me during the time whether I've done Reno's for other people, or whether I've done joint ventures with other people. 

I think that and Robert Kiyosaki as well. A little bit different, being very Americanized, but it still had a lot of negative gearing back then. I would never go that way again. But you know, things you know, change and you learn different stuff. Yes, so, go so I suppose my favourite sort of books. Apart from like, I'm obsessed with audible. I’m always listening to something, especially when I drive an hour to get to Brisbane, like, that's if you're lucky some days. Yeah, I've always got an audible book playing.

Tyrone Shum  

Halliday gives our listeners the advice she wished she received 10 years ago.

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:31:28] I think looking at where I am now, and what I'm trying to do now, I would say that to concentrate on the income from the property. More so than the capital growth. I think earlier on I was looking at the capital growth, making me money and it has worked. But I think now I would definitely still look at Good, good areas, because that's going to set you up well, anyway. And if there's capital growth, then great, you get a bonus. But I would definitely say look at that passive income and and get something that's really going to give you not just covering your costs, but you know, more double. 

Tyrone Shum  

She explains why she’s going to explore developing boarding houses more during this new phase in her career.

Vivienne Halliday  

[00:32:55] I see that is the way that I can actually get income a lot more passive and a lot more regular. And it'll allow me to do more things with my husband, and who knows the world might open up to travel again, and be able get back out there. But yeah, I see it as my path to being able to move into retirement. Although I don't think I'll ever retire, I can probably just renovate a house a year or something like that, just to keep my hand and keep me from being bored. Yeah. But I will say see, it's a great way of giving back. You know, giving really nice accommodation to people that are at a reasonable price. And they're safe. Yeah, so I like that idea of it as well.

33:51  Well, Vivian, you've achieved so much. You know, there's been a lot of great things. And thank you so much for sharing your stories there as well. What would you say? If you know is do you think that all the things that you've done in property has been attribute towards your skill, intelligence and hard work? Or has it been because due to luck?

Vivienne Halliday   

[00:34:2] I basically have done a lot of learning, a lot of education. And you can learn as much as you like, and you can go to as many seminars if you like, but if you don't take that step and do something with it, you're never going to get anywhere. So I suppose, yeah, like, it is. I don't believe it's luck. I think if you actually put yourself in the right position and have the right information, then you'll know when the deal is right. But yeah, you've got to do something with that information that you've got. Otherwise, you're not going to get anywhere. 

Thank you to our guest Vivienne Halliday for coming on to the podcast.