hello and welcome to another edition of the J. Allen show. Yeah, I know that It's Friday, April the 24th. In normally, you'd be listening to a safety FM many episode, but by but so many people seem to enjoy the conversation that we were having with Uncle Bill that we decided to ask him to come right back on to the show. So I'm not gonna take a lot of your time, Bill and I go for a while here during this conversation. Now, I will tell you this conversation is recorded, but we got it started right on the cusp of the regaining of the recording.  We didn't waste any time. So please take a listen and listen to your follow up questions that you had for Bill exclusively here on the jail in Joe this'll episode will be commercial free because it's a mini episode or normally would be considered a mini episode. So I hope you enjoy it. Well, I have to tell you, even though it has only been let me see, we released it yesterday and, yeah, so it's been two days. We'll say two days for this like, man, I did not know how controversial the figure you were.  I didn't know either. Well, that's the fun part because I have people asking me questions saying on how they agree with you. Some people willing to give their names, some people not willing to give their name. Some people want to meet you just directly Say, what do you think about X, Y and Z So number one I have to tell you I host another show as well, called the rated R safety show. And this particular show. I normally do it daily live and in real time. And I had somebody jump on by the name of Dr Todd Lichine to make sure that I understood clearly that you are not on the national delegates that you are on a local one.  So I thought it was kind of interesting that they want to make sure that I knew this. I I'm I'm terribly sorry. I in no way shape or form did I mean to presume Ah, a station beyond my own. Ah, I don't know. I mean, I took that took the I took the information as you were telling me. I mean, I didn't look at it was like, Oh, my Lord, he is. He has done the Unforgiven and said something that was out of out of school. We'll put it to you that way.  But I just thought it was interesting because they referenced it and they put it inside of the chat box. It actually goes into my screen so it flashes it because where we do a live stream at the same time, words of video. And so in the reference right away that there's a huge difference between the two is to make sure that I knew that in the audience knew that. So I thought it was kind of funny. Okay, Now, here's Here's the funny thing. Um, so I was elected as a delegate of my local chapter, Um, and and I was sent to the national conference, right?  Called the House of Delegates, which is where all the delegates go. Okay, uh, I'm unaware of any other kind of delicate, but I'm unaware of a lot of things. Well, let me start off with this. So I have a message that came in that I want to read to you because this person was okay with me reading it you know, on the air as well. Call it. Here goes message to Bill. I think your concerns are valid. My wife is a corporate risk professional for her organization.  I am a consultant. We laugh at the letters after everyone's names. Our industry is ridiculous. When they started warring cd see used for getting other credentials and therefore more money. I saw a disaster in the making so I am a C S p a c h m m in a c i e. They are three distinctly different credentials with little overlap. Explain to me how if you are a CSB an A s p first a c h s t while alphabet soup here O h s t s t s Dash C S t s in a C i t or whatever it is how having all these actually helps your credibility.  It is becoming a diploma mill. Does this mean that to keep up, I need to take Mawr and Mawr test to shovel out more and more money at the time the CSP is supposed to be on all encompassing explained to me If you are a CSP, why would need to do all of the other certifications. Onley. If you are behind on your research, maybe or O R. Let me see how there's a lot here or just you, or you just don't have to take that many classes.  Or do you have to do something else? I have a college. I have a colleague better saying who has a PhD in toxicology. He has worked in the safety field in university professor for over 40 years. People ask him how to come. How come he is not anything else, he tells them. What do you think I taught to those who have the alphabet soup to your point? I generally agree. In the past, they wanted a degree in some certification and jobs because it showed that you had a discipline to get a degree and that you were supposed to know how to think.  I believe that that mode of thinking is way outdated, especially with literally thousands of education opportunities online plus experience. Focus Experience with some self study usually teaches ume or the best way of training. Someone is usually having the opportunity to teach them. So that was his comment. What do you think I know? There's a lot there. I think I followed. Okay. And you correct me if I don't answer it, Okay. First of all, um, my understanding of how the worlds of certifications work, right? Not just be CSP, but all certifications everywhere, right?  Is people either have a stepping stone sort of system right where you get the final credential and you're done. That's all you put after your name. For instance, You put a PhD after it. How often do you also put B s? Uh, not often at all. I don't think I ever have. Okay, But But in theory, you could, right? Right. But you don't need to, because everyone knows you have a B s to have a PhD. So that's one way of doing certifications. My understanding is that the BCS P has chosen to do their certifications like Okay, well, I'm a construction and health safety technician, okay?  And so, in theory, if you, Jay Allen are not eight construction and health safety technician, but let's say you go and pass the C S P example. Okay, then you are a C S. P. A certified safety professional, and the two don't apparently overlap. Now, the difficulty is if you go speak to people outside of the safety profession, they assumed that the CSP is the highest and therefore the top and that it encompasses everything beneath it. There's nothing wrong with the way it excuse me again. There's nothing wrong in my personal opinion with the way the BCS P has chosen to do it.  But there is something wrong. If the outside world doesn't understand that, you know what I mean. Does that make sense that makes sense? Abso absolutely. Because let's be realistic. It's exactly how you're saying. Most people believe that if you have a suit, a CSP, you are the coup de gras. Of everything you are, you are the subject matter expert. There is nothing higher. And the funny thing is that if people don't know in depending on what field you're in, of course, people look at the CSP being more value than a PhD, depending on who you're talking to, which you know, has some sense of interesting things that were associated to it exactly.  And let's not even leave that at the doorstep of the B. C. S P. All of us in safety have a responsibility to the people outside of our field and also to the people inside of our field to clarify things like this. Okay, now, I also understand what he's saying about his colleague who said, Hey, man, I got a PhD. I don't need any certifications. Uh huh. Back in the last century, Uh, when When I did business consulting. And, uh, but business process, definition, engineering, reengineering, things like that.  Knowledge management tools was right around the time when, um and several other software companies started offering certifications for working with their various platforms and tools and things like that. And there was this rush of consultants who went out and got these credentials. And there was a rush of, uh, jump you to employees working for companies running out and getting these certifications and saying, I deserve more money. I've got this certification. Meanwhile, I'm being billed out at $150 an hour to companies like Well, let's not name any names but several companies in the top 500 and companies outside of the top 500.  Uh, and I got no certifications, right? And my boss at the time When? When we all asked him at a group meeting. We said, Hey, should we go take all these certifications means that why certifications air to prove you can do it when you don't have experience? Interesting. Interesting is your point of view. Well, it's a point of view, right? Right. I bought off on that point of view. Now we This is no longer last century, right? If you want a work in the safety profession, you either need to be with the same employer for years and years and years.  Or you need to have some letters after your name. Period understands. Very true. So here's my question then, because I know that a lot of people are going to sit here and go, Well, this is this bill and J complaining about what some organization is attempting to do where several organizations are attempting to dio with how they're doing certification way. I think that we're talking. But, you know, I'm kind of trying to give both sides of the coin here because I don't think that it's a fair fight to say, Hey, let's agree 100% across the board.  So my question would be this. What do you think we can dio to correct the problems that we have currently in the industry. And of course, these are opinion questions. So this is asking you what you think should be done to be corrected and what we can do to make it a valid point, because what happens is any time that you start talking about credited credentials and stuff that's related to money, people get very, very hesitant right away. And I know that some people are offended in regards of that.  We're talking about this major corporation that does. These things are related to helping people in safety. I'm not saying that what they're doing is wrong. I'm saying that there's a different approach to take for sure. Okay, So J, let me ask you this. How do you prepare an English muffin to eat? How long do we have? Because it could be very long on how we can go into this explanation. Of course, Let's let's do it in real super basic terms, right? But you cut it in half and toast the two halves.  Yes, that's normally exactly how we do it. And that is that is a very, uh, that is a way that is very much in line with the way most people think, right? Would you agree? I agree. If you watch a movie, you will see someone who is preparing an English month and do that same thing. So both while I was in the Marines, you get the opportunity to live off base once you want to reach Lance, Corporal. Okay, so I moved out in town with some roommates because it's, you know, more fun than being in the squad bay and absolutely room clean.  So one of my roommates would take an English muffin and stick it without cutting in half into the microwave, heat it up, cut it in half, butter it and eat it. Now, when I first saw him do this, I said, What do you want more on? You don't know how to eat an English muffin, right? I mean, this is this is a fairly standard response for a 19 year old, uh, kid who carries an M 60 machine gun for a living. True, but this is this was his response.  He said to me, Does it really matter to you how the hell I eat an English muffin and I said no, and I understood it right then. So I tried something. I took the whole English muffin without splitting in half, put it down the slot of the toaster, posted it, cut it open it, buttered it and ate it. And I like it interesting. Okay, now, here's another thing you can do. You can cut that same English muffin in half. Put the backs together, shove it in the toaster, toasted it, pops up, butter it and eat it, and it's a slightly different texture again.  Still the same product. It's just prepared differently. Now you go to some restaurants and they cut the English muffin in half, butter it and stick it on the grill. Face down, right? Have you ever have you ever had it that way at a restaurant? Okay, so now we've We've talked about multiple ways of preparing the English muffin to eat. They're all different. The end result is the same. The English muffin ends up in your tummy with the butter in jam and honey and whatever else you put on it.  But it's It's a different perspective, right? It's a different way of looking at it. We're to my mind We're not saying they're wrong. What we're saying is, shouldn't we always be questioning right? As a safety professional? Isn't it your job toe? Always be questioning Should we ever be happy with? We've always done it this way. Now, we should never be happy with that. We've always done it this way. You should always look, We're always looking for improvement. So, you know, I hate to bring up Tom Peters because, you know, after getting accused of faking data, then he admits 20 years later, Yeah, we fake some data.  Big deal. But there was a lot of good in what he did also. Okay, I I have an ethical problem with him and his partner faking data. Okay, I do. That's wrong, is it? It's wrong. But they only faked the data on the first book and for the other books. Supposedly all their data was correct. And all that is exactly is that the one in search of excellence? I just wanna make sure that yeah, now that's the one that everyone accused him of faking the date on.  And he kept denying. And then 20 years later, supposedly he said, Oh, yeah, we fake that sorry. Um, but all kinds of people did studies and wrote books after that. And no one has accused any of these people of faking the data, and you can go all the way back. Who was the guy who wrote the very first? Well, I guess the very first self help book was the various Bibles for the various religions. But ah, in the in the early 20th century, a guy wrote a book, and it's considered the first self help book how to win friends and influence people.  Dale Carnegie's right. Those same concepts that he got from the magnets of industry of his time. Okay, or robber barons, if you prefer that term with were the same kinds of things that Tom Peters and all the people that Tom Peters sprouted we're talking about right, and and that's basically hire smart people, communicate with your people, ask them questions and get their input right. That's that's the basic gist of all that kind of management. Smoke and mirrors, right? Black magic is wow you in black magic That's going dark right away.  Well, we've already discussed I have a pension. You know, the morbid side of things Yes. I've realized that so far, which is a good thing. I like it. Understand? So So all of these profits of the business world, even though they were sprouted by Tom Peters, who was a horrible, horrible liar, and we all needed tear down his statues. But all the others that were buyers, right? And even all the way back to Dale Carnegie they were all saying, Here's what leadership is. Here's how you run a business.  Here's how you become successful, right? And what were some of those tenants? Oh, always assume that there's something you don't know. Always look for a better way to do something. Always look to improve. Always listen to your employees, right. These tenants have been around for a long time. This is what I was taught in the Marine Corps when I became a corporal. Right? This is how I was taught to leave people, was you. You communicate with people you never given order. You don't have to, right? Do you help people achieve?  Okay. So if we buy off on that and I do have drunk the Kool Aid, then why wouldn't that work for safety? Right. So if we look at safety to or safety differently. Or, uh, hop. What? Resilience, engineering, whatever you wanna call. But isn't that just taking those same concepts and focusing in the mine safety? And isn't that just an offshoot of shouldn't everybody include the focus of safety when they're thinking about production and other things? Absolutely. And that's exactly what the basis it's. So if we buy off on that, then shouldn't we?  The members? Oh, the the world of safety professionals. Shouldn't we be constantly striving to improve ourselves? Shouldn't we want to constantly look at what the B. C. S P does what the SSP does, what the National Safety Council does, what OSHA is doing, what the insurance companies air doing? Shouldn't we be looking at all this and trying to make improvements? Well, I would say yes, but here's what happens. You all of a sudden and I, Allyson are having a conversation giving out names of organizations that do this.  So now it makes it seem like we're anti establishment. It's not that we're questioning it. It's that were anti establishment because we don't believe exactly what they say or in this Palfrey's it better this way we're not drinking the Kool Aid because the Kool Aid has been poured by them and some people get upset about that. Some of the some of the mail that I've received back was that Why am I trying to make a stand against a SSB? And that's not what I'm doing. It's a question in a lot of this started off with them wanting to have their conference still in June and they have not cancelled it.  And of course, this recording we're doing it on April the 22nd and a lot of stuff is still not open. So I have question why would you want to do that? And put what you're calling the safety and health profession at risk when they're still trying to tell you to stay locked up? And I'm talking about the general government depending what area you're in? Let me let me throw the opposite side of that same coin at you. Okay, Um, why do we Why are we working on canceling the NFL season for this coming season?  And you know, making plans to play without Spectators, right? And God only knows what's gonna happen to major League Baseball. I find it refreshing that they're still planning to have it because it's a want right. We all want it to happen. Now here's wait if it can't happen or if, let's see, the world has opened up and were allowed to have it. But a bunch of people just feel lucky about it, right? Or companies say, Wait a minute. We're not going to allow our employees to go as long as those people that choose not to go or aren't allowed to go by they're cohabit int their their company there cat as long as they get recalls.  Is anyone being hurt by planning on the positive? No. And I don't think that it's it's about planning for the positive. But as we speak right now, it's one of those things that okay, we're kind of close on what the dates are in regards of what, what's taking place. I mean, right now I can tell you there was a new story that came out today that Octoberfest has already been canceled in Germany. That's and that's that's six months down the road here. So we're talking about essentially something that's about to happen in about two months, so really.  I mean, right now if I don't have my plane tickets saying if I didn't live here in Orlando, if I didn't have my plane ticket and I didn't have everything set up, I have to start making these plants now, as you are, are where a good chunk of hotels are still closed down. So what are we thinking of? I mean, I'll tell you right now in the economy in Orlando in particular, they have refunded over $371 million out of that convention center on people canceling or rescheduling some of their events for this year.  And I'm not saying that's what they need to dio. But I'm saying we need to start having the conversation because we are need to be studying standards because we're the safety and health professionals and we're pushing forward or saying that we're doing this. But at this particular point, I know that at the end of this month, they're supposed to be a conversation about if they're going to do it virtually overnight. But is it virtual with a charge? And if there is a charge, are you still charging me full price of what it would cost if I went in person, because let's be realistic.  You have the information is great when you go in person. But a lot of people gobies of the networking aspect, right? Because that's where you're gonna get information that is going to enhance your ability to you to do your current job or get you that next job or help you hire that person or find out more about this thing called Hop or whatever, right? That's what the conferences for the class is neat, right? Um, but it's the mingling. Okay. No, it's the getting drunk. I mean I mean, it's the mingling. Yeah.  Yeah, well, I only drink it. Wow. Oh, I don't drink it all. So I just think it's funny when we will go over there and they really get hammered or the place gets closed down because you know they're buying drinks, replied, Don't drink. That's is my personal choice. So I always find it interesting when I get hang out with public safety professionals that are some of the best trunks I've ever seen. Well, I mean, good way, way are thin, but that could easily be misinterpreted and said we're going to get misinterpreted. Anyways.  Let's let's stick to the power point. You know, I read a book a very long time ago. That's called Controversy creates cash. So, believe me, I'm trying to help them in the best way possible here. Well, so here's what I don't get. Yeah, I happen to think that we have, ah, crisis in higher education in this country right now. Okay, I happen to think that it is more and more. Um, that's just the wrong word. See, this is why I should have a degree. I happen to think that it is a greater possibility for people to graduate from current accredited institutions in the United States with baccalaureate degrees or higher without having the ability to really think critically to be more of a follower than a leader.  Okay, and it's not necessarily bad, but it's a shift from, say, the 19 fifties. Does that make sense so far? Okay. And that's not every single person. And I thought, every single institution right, you're gonna get you're gonna get out of all your educational efforts, what you put into them. I'm a firm believer in that. Okay, Now, do I have fax No, I am. I done research? Nope. It's a belief I have. Which means it's hard for me to switch, just like with English muffin. So my belief is this if we continue to allow this to happen and this is not political, this is purely education.  We continue to allow this to happen in the end, product from our universities will will dwindle in value. Okay, so how can I build Stettner? Make a change to this. Get riel. I can't. But maybe if the SSP and the B. C S P were to look into that and say, you know what? He's a jackass, and he's a loud mouth, but he's got a point here, you know, hypothetically, if they thought I did have a point and then they started saying, You know what? Less Let's embrace diversity and start saying that these other forms of higher education that do not come from traditional education institutions are just as valid as what we're currently receiving.  Now you're attacking the money that the colleges make, right? You're You're saying you don't have to have a degree to be considered capable of thinking independently. Okay, Now we're pressuring them to improve their product, right? Voting with your dollar. That's the American way, isn't it? It sure is. Okay, now I'm not in any way, shape or form trying to say that everyone with a college diploma isn't idiot. Can't think on their own. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is I believe that it is possible that a higher percentage of graduates do not have the skill sets that we're assigning to them, you know?  Oh, you've got a degree. So therefore, you've got this. Where do we pick our leaders? We picked them from college graduates with I don't know your politics and you don't know mine. But what do AOC and Donald Trump have in common? Tell me they both have bachelor's degrees now, regardless of politics, it is quite possible that you and everybody listening may think that at least one of these people doesn't do a very good job of critical thinking or analyzing problems. You might even think that of both is a and yet the booth past critical thinking, throwing it out there.  I know I'm just smiling very big because I was like, I try not to talk about politics and I'm just like, Oh, I'm just gonna hold it. Hold it right here. What? The's air two completely polar opposites from a political standpoint. So it doesn't matter where you fit in the political spectrum, there's bound to be a least one of these people where you're questioning. How the hell did this person past critical thinking. How did this reversal pass? Ethics, Right? Well, they both did, and they went to different universities at different times.  But according to the accreditation people, they're they're both qualified, and they both went to qualified programs. We're not talking about Trump University are Don't be. Oh, I jokingly say that. I just want to make sure I understand. And and that's gonna piss a whole mess of people off. And I'm sorry, but you meet people over Never. You pissed people off. Never, never heard that happened before. Well, uh, I like that. We make them think I don't mean to make them uncomfortable. I would like them to be comfortable being uncomfortable, but But the basic point is, you know, college accreditation, right?  When was the last time that on institution of higher learning in the United States lost their accreditation was it Jeffry? No, I think I think Device still has. There's I think we're starting to talk now like I t t Tech and stuff along those lines. But here's the thing. So no matter what scandal happens, even though the National College Amateur Athletics Organization will not allow a team to play sports from a college for a year or two years or three years because of ethical or moral wrongdoing, right, we're cheating or anything else.  No college ever has there accreditation suspended. No matter, no matter what what we hear, it's always Oh, there's a person to blame. And yet, if we turn that same thing around and look at police departments, fire departments, the military, the government, it doesn't matter. Through the Houston Astros in New England. Patriots wait. So Wednesday, Astros, right? They cheated, allegedly remember allegedly well known. Now people have they shown pictures of people wearing these wires and stuff, and they figured it all out. Isn't the whole point of professional sports to teach the youth of America and any other youth that wanna join in right Canadian youth, Mexican youth, Guatemalan youth doesn't matter to teach them right from wrong and ethics.  Isn't that the whole point? That's what one. That's what one hopes, of course, right? So you know, let's let's leave the Patriots out of it because people get all upset when I talk about them. Well, now, people, people won't take it so personal. Now the Bradys a buccaneer. So I think it will be okay. Gradkowski's down there, too. Now Major League Baseball says they can't take the trophy away from the Houston Astros. Then the trophy means nothing, right? And the argument is, we cheated in all the other games, but not this one. Really.  That's your argument? No, it where? Even even if I were an Astros fan and I like several players on the team and you, why would I want them to still have the rings in the trophy? Right. And you could make an argument. Well, how can we give it to anyone else so don't have one, don't have a winner. There's nothing wrong with that, But But if we think outside the box, we confined new and inventive solutions that allow us to bridge for what we thought in the past to what we think now and so organizations do this all the time, right?  And that's that's why they keep going. And they get bigger and stronger and faster and cooler. So why wouldn't we? The safety profession wouldn't get it. I mean, it just makes sense to me. So let's let's play a game broke work then. So if you were gonna give them a proposition on how this could actually turn for them, what would you say? How would you actually say this is what we need to take a look at moving forward? What would it look like? This is the thing.  I want people to think of solutions as well. I don't want it just to be us just talking. Going Well, let's speculate this and then do that. And this is what other industries do because you know that someone's gonna take a listen to this. They're going to jot down some notes, and then they're going to say, Here's my idea and move forward with it. So if you're gonna actually developed the plan for the miners will kind of give him the you know, the whole thing. Okay? And it can't upset anyone more than I've already upset them, right?  I mean at this particular point? Here's the funny thing. The podcast is tracking very well and normally come two days after it comes out. It does. I mean, they do well, but not as well as yours is doing, which I find hilarious, because what's funny is that people will comment. But don't say my name. People will ask questions and somewhere OK with saying the name. But they don't want associations, you know, knowing who they are, which, whatever you whoever you want to be. But here's the thing.  If we can get everybody to question the status quo not just in safety, but in everything right. We talk about, uh, bias. And we talk about the ISMs, right? Racism, sexism. A size is, um, uh, generous. Um, many, many, many, many ISMs. And I probably left a bunch out, and I'm very sorry. Um, I'm just not that bright. Okay, So shouldn't we always be questioning? Shouldn't we always bean at least, even if we don't want to stand up and say, Hey, I'm over here. Count me. Shouldn't we at least be adding our voice to the question of from the crowd saying, Should should we be trying to improve.  Not necessarily what this idiot thinks. Right now, I'm not on with Bill. I'm just saying we should be trying to improve, right? And so it's great that they're saying things I gotta tell you, I'm shocked. I really didn't think I had anything that was worth listening to. But as far as an idea, wouldn't it make sense to use the same business processes that we want people to use their safety programs and that business leaders are looking to use? Right. So let's look at a process, look at the end result and see if the end result is what we want. Yeah.  I mean, that's That's not so hard. No, not at all. Right, that I mean, that's that's a pretty simple process right there, right? No, but both the BCS p in the SSP want to say that they're the first. And diversity is a good thing. It's Yeah, and national zeitgeist right now is diversity. And I want a double word score for using zeitgeist. Huh? So we want everyone do not only feel that they are being heard, but we also want to actually listen to them and incorporate their ideas because we're finding that everything works better if we get input from different perspectives, right?  You know, if you design people E as a company and everyone who designs it is male, and everyone who designs it is six foot four, you're not as likely. It's not impossible for them to design proper P a p E for a female who happens to be five foot four, but it's more difficult for them to view the world from that perspective. Then, if you add a female person who is five foot four to your team, you're starting to get into Abbey Fairy world here because she's very you are cheap.  I mean, she's I mean, she really goes after this night of BP, as you are already aware. I mean, I'm just bringing it up, okay, Please hold on that. That's That's Abby Ferry from the Safety Justice League. Just in case you can hear that exclusively on safety FM. Not a plugger in either. Okay. And just in case my liking what she has to say, it gets her in trouble. Let me disavow any any context there. I just happen to think she has a great idea. Um telling way.  So shouldn't, shouldn't we? As safety professionals want to embrace the people who come up through industry, wouldn't they possibly have a different perspective then? If I graduate high school, I go to 10 years of college graduate. I got my PhD and you know, then I decided I wanna be a safety person, right? No, again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with going to college, but it's definitely a different perspective than someone who started on an assembly line and has being all the different jobs at that particular plant.  They're gonna have a different perspective of safety, and then perspective is not better. That's not what I'm saying, but it is different. And isn't that what we're talking about? Only say diversity of thought, But one would hope that that's at least what everybody else is open minded to. Okay, so whether or not you let that person take the test to be a CSP is is a whole nother matter. But shouldn't you allow that person to be heard at the national level of the American Society of Safeties Professionals, right?  Shouldn't that person be allowed to be a professional member now? Now, I know what you're gonna say, or I know what the what's the what's the antithesis of advocates? Con Vic. It's go ahead. We can run with that. Okay, so the con vic, it's I love that made word. Um, I know you can start using it on the Uncle Bill videos going forward. I may. Or I might throw it into a dirt blood. That story. Blair, you know, this whole idea that a profession has to have a barrier to entry on?  Well, it's nice for a profession to have a barrier to entry, because then it's attractive for people to join it. Okay, there's job security. There's income security. But being a professional is not about simply getting paid to do something. And I did a safety minute on this bringing up the Houston Astros, right? So is being a professional about being a member of the profession, or is about being a person who exudes professionalism? Right? It is. If you're working in a hospital and one of your co worker says to you, I really like working with Dr Jones.  She's such a professional. What? What context do you take that? What do you think your coworker means Do they mean Dr Jones has had more classes than anyone else? For that? Doctor Jones has been a doctor longer than anyone else. Or do they mean that Dr Jones typifies exemplifies what you think of when you think of a doctor? So So Dr Jones might be brand new fresh out of college. Or Dr Jones might have been there for 30 years. But Dr Jones works well with their teammates and respects their co workers and works well with patients and patient families.  They were a professional. So that's why I have a problem with people saying a profession must have a barrier to entry. Therefore, we must have barriers to be a professional. Wait a minute. You're a professional because you act professionally, you exude professionalism. That's what makes you a professional. And right there. Okay, we're back to the English muffin, right? It's No. We've always done it this way. Well, wait a minute. Aren't we in the business of questioning the way we've always done it, they're Untie that on my mentor.  I mean, that's gonna be an interesting one, because it's all about is you're saying it's a perspective. It is how you look at it now, The funny part is, you know, if you did take a listen even though you experience the episode. But if you did take a listen to the episode at the end of the episode last time I did issue, I will call it a challenge or an invitation. However, you want to look at it for Jennifer McNeely and Diane Steagall. Either wonder. Come on.  And I would love to further this conversation. I think that you would be a great person, you know, to carry out this conversation with a, to be honest with you because I would love to get their perspective. Because, yeah, we can sit here until our face are blue in regards of talking about it. But they right now we'll call them. The big dogs are inside of that organization, one being the CEO and the other one being the president. So Okay, what is their point of view? Well, J now, I don't know their point of view, but let me throw a an idea at you.  In 2000 I did a little sailboat race called the single handed, Transparent right. Got on a boat in San Francisco sailed it too quiet. One of the racers won that race. It was not me. I did not win. And we were all, uh, drinking and partying and having a good time. Because we you know, we have seen the mountain and survived you metaphysically. Um and this person was talking about how in two years that we're gonna do the race again. And one of the older racers pulled him aside right over by me.  So I happened over here. This it was it was a shockingly beautiful statement. Is it? Why do you want do it again? So because it was great and maybe I could win, He said, If you do it again and you don't win, that makes eat your win this year in question. If you do it again and you win big deal, you've already done it. Good. What do you have to gain? So what? What do uh, either of those ladies or anyone else from the society National Society side of the SSP have to gain by talking about this in this four, I'll be happy if they'll talk about it behind closed locked doors.  There's no there's no winning it for them that I can see to come on the show and talk about it are terrible. Salesman. I don't want to give you that out there now. Joking now. I mean, I understand. I mean, I entirely understand where you're coming from, but here's the thing. What I what a lot of people get scared of is actually the whole thing of, Well, I have editorial rights and I can actually control the edit. That's why I said, Hey, you could do it live And I think that this is something that people are interested in in people want to know that it's not a diploma meal, and they also want to know that it's not a money grab, and this gives you the opportunity that at one shy you can tell several people what your thought processes are.  Here's why we're doing it in this particular fashion. And if they're even considering some of the other things that people are bringing up now, keep in mind. I am not the only person to ever bring up the subject. I am not the only person to put it on a recording on a podcast on whatever format you on any medium that you can think of of having this exact same conversation. But there is a lot of people that will have the conversation behind closed doors but will not have it in public because I don't want to read the outcast, the black sheep, whatever you want to call it the red headed step child I am because of the child.  That's why I threw that in there. But that's what I That's what I want you to think about. So that's why I want to give them the opportunity. And that's why I say we can do it on the live format. That way nobody turns around and says, Well, you edited to for it to say this now I don't want to edit anything, my friend hate editing if I can avoid it. But, uh, I guess all I'm trying to do is see their perspective from their perspective, even if they want to make some of these changes right that there is.  There was always a group that is happy with the status quo, and they are afraid of change. And some members of this group, maybe, but you know, members of the SSP okay, Some, maybe. Right. People don't like change. So if if I were, uh, you know, someone who was worth listening to, I would probably think twice about being on this show with you and talking about these subjects. Luckily, I'm not someone who's worth listening, Teoh. So I have no qualms about saying this stuff. I totally disagree.  And I think that several of my audience actually agrees with me that your that you are worth listening too. I'll tell you, I have never done an interview back to back with the same person we did. Ah, like a feature story at one point where we had three parts, but it was kind of a whole bunch of different people on there. But we've never done the same guess twice in a row. We've never even split an episode, and we're not even splitting this one. This is two separate conversations, which is the fun part.  So I was so interested in having you on even when we finish our conversation. And yes, people will say, Well, I'm sure you don't look the numbers now. I like it with people download because I'm always interested, and people have been gaining traction in regards of this particular episode that it came out before. So I want to make sure that when you came back on, we could continue the conversation because I normally don't try to go too long. I try to go normally about 30 minutes. We went close to an hour the last time you were almost on the verge of an hour right now.  But this is the thing. Well, now I mean, I look at it that I go, you bring value and you bring it a great discussion. And I understand what you're saying about. What's the value to them own, come them coming on. To be quite honest with you, it would have put him in a difficult position, probably to some extent. But it's also the opportunity to listen to people or talk to people. That is not. They're normal cup of tea, and here's the great thing. It's not like I'm gonna open up the phone lines and say, Hey, let's take some calls and have people ask you questions because that I think, would be unfair to some extent because I know how some people can be when they get on the phone in on the show because they try to annihilate other people, just kind of the way that it goes way.  As as we practice more and more social distancing, we get more and more comfortable with yet taking sniper shots of people, all right, And when we an ideal with key keyboard, tough guys all the time or tough ladies, however you want to look at it and that's okay, I have no problem with it. I always tell people of that. I normally don't normally read the comments when I'm doing the live video show Ideo, but I just I don't look at him. But I look at it from this particular standpoint.  I just want a point of view and I can tell you I had somebody reach out to me and tell me Hey, listen, if you pay real close attention to what's going on, they're trying to push away Jennifer McNeely from any of these things related to the conference at the moment and where they're really focusing on Diane Steagall on actually having a lot of the conversations because she's out of the in the middle of what is it? Towards the end of June, so you'll see a lot more conversations with with, um, Diane because of that, which I was like.  That's pretty smart, but that's not something that I would care to know, but so I don't even know if Diane would actually be willing to come on. At one point, we did have a discussion where she said she would come on and then I never heard from her again. Well, I met her pressure on to you by the way I met her. She used to be a very intelligent and very thoughtful a person, so I don't think it's out of some sense of self protection or anything like that.  I think it's just the funny part was that I was like I told her because we we were having this conversation in person and was actually here in Orlando because they were actually scouting the convention center and we met up and we were having a conversation, and during the conversation, I was like, You're going to you're going to come on my show and I was like you do you know what I would I talk about? And she said yes. And she goes also keeping. And I was like So no subject's gonna be off topic.  She goes, I'm a voted in position. Just keep that in mind. So I was like, Okay, so I took that. Is that a That's free game. But after that, I tried to contact her, and it has been crickets since then. So it is what it is. Ah, you know, I believe me. I'm not expecting you to say anything on that. That's perfectly fine. So no pressure there, aren't you? But I'm just saying this is what has occurred. But my whole thing, as this whole thing started, was the issue with the conference.  And yes, I think it's a great idea. Toe have the conference. I'm not saying that it's not, but it's just also safety and health related. So how are we protecting the people? And that's what it boils down to for me, Wolf. But let me throw an idea out at your J as safety and health professionals should we constantly focus on the worst possible right and put in place so many barriers. Right? So the whole zero harm idea. So right now, basically, the United States is sitting at home Now, some people are working from home like you, And like people making software programs and other things. Right.  Um, and some people are twiddling their thumbs or breaking things around their house, walking their dog or whatever. Okay, so we made a bunch of worst case projections and we said this could be really bad. Let's do this right. But what? We have no way of knowing and I'm not saying end the lock down. I'm saying we have no way of knowing what unplanned outcomes will occur from the lockdowns. Right? How many people will not go get there? Health screening at their practitioner. And so they're cancer advances that they never knew they had because the doctor hadn't found it yet. Right?  And then they perish. Now the odds are that is a smaller number, right? These air odds, we're guessing. And no matter what happens with our economy and everything else, we're going to have to assume that what we did was right. So, me, personally, I find it refreshing that they're still planning to hold it because they can cancel it two weeks before, and it has the same effect for me. You know what I'm saying whether they cancel it now or cancel it in a month, it it doesn't.  It doesn't make a difference to me. Now, I know some people really, really like to know what they're doing a month from now, two months from now, three months, we're now some people are working and have to make plans. Some people have families and, you know, have toe make plans. I'm Footloose and fancy free. So that part of it doesn't doesn't bother me and the whole the whole thought of Wait a minute, we could be endangering people. Oh, we may be endangering some people by cancelling it right now. Right?  Hypothetically, I don't know that to be true. So I'm okay with them handling the logistics of that however they want. And you know, I'm not a fan of all of their decisions, So it's not like I'm trying t o Okay, right? Sure, you're not. Not towards the end of the episode or anything, but but the thing is, from my perspective, that's not It's just not that big a deal. And if we plan on having it, and then we figure out a way to do it virtual and even have virtual networking, right?  Is it because there's all kinds of, uh, video and textual and audio? Let's make sure we said that correctly textual die. Don't want you Teoh anybody to think the wrong thing there. Oh, terribly sorry. Uh, shoot tool. So I mean, necessity is the mother of invention, right? If we want to find ways to do things, we can do it. Um, so I guess it just It just doesn't seem to chap my hide as much as it seems to chap yours and many, many other people's, it's not a chapter.  It's not a chap. The high thing, it's just perspective. And that's where that's what That's what I'm looking for because I would imagine that other safety people or not, safety people that look at the safety groups would say, This is what they're doing and is it okay based on what's going on? So I guess that's how I'm looking at it in its perspective. So you could take you could run without 1000 different ways. You're saying you gotta cut the English muffin before you throw it's toaster slot. Well, you could say it that way to something that's what.  That's one of the 1000 ways you could do it. Well, Bill, I appreciate you actually doing two episodes back to back with me, because I know that this is some time, not the easiest thing, Especially interacting with me for that kind of period of time. At least that's what some people say. So where can people find out more information about you if they want you, I'm unleashed in darks. Could be thrown at linked in dark. Could be thrown at me. Um, don't say that. You never know. He gave us permission to do so, but they're gonna do it whether I get them permission or not matter.  Um eso I'm up on lengthen. I've got my Uncle Bill safety minute. Uh, Uncle Bill Zombie. Apocalypse minutes. Those were both video type things. I'll I read a character known as Dirk Bloodbath, safety professional. And there were several stories up on unlinked in. And, uh, you know, on occasion, I comment about stuff like hop and resilience, engineering and safety to safety differently. And thi the important stone being the important stuff. Well, Bill, I appreciate you actually coming onto the show once again. Not a problem. Well, this brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end.  I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Bill. I want to tell you, You know, a lot of people think that we're sitting around and having these conversations trying to start controversy, and that's not the thing. It's actually having the open conversation on what could be done to enhance what we're currently doing and how we're able to obscene certain credentials. That's not exactly how I started down this path. Originally, my concern was related to the A s S B safety 2020 as we have discussed already in the past, hopefully president or the CEO of the American Society of Safety Professionals.  We'll take me up on my offer and making appearance here on the jail and show or on safety fl before or on made the bed. Let's see what happens. Well, this brings another episode to an end. Don't worry, we'll be back before too long. Good bye for now, the opinions expressed on this pod cats are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within with podcast are only, and they should not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited.  Undated Open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.