Kevin Waldal
November 24, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show we speak with Kevin Waldal. Kevin is a human & organizational performance change agent.
Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show we speak with Kevin Waldal. Kevin is a human & organizational performance change agent.
Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is visited, this show is brought to you by Safety FM. Mhm. Well, hello and welcome to another rendition of the J. Allen show. Hopefully, everything is fine and great in your neck of the woods. If you are in the United States of America, this is the week of Thanksgiving. So, yes, that's what we have going on here today to some extent, of course, getting ready for all that fun and loving and all that fun stuff of food that you get. But that's for the most part of People are going out and about a good chunk of people that I knew were staying locked up, which I can understand for sure, especially with everything going on. But let's not bore you too much about people staying locked up. I'm sure you already familiar with that proportion below, but let's talk about what we have going on here today. So today I have the great opportunity. Speaking to Kevin Walled all he's a safety professional in a human and organizational performance change agent. He's definitely in love with concepts of hop and, of course, of learning teams. So today we're gonna have a conversation with Kevin we're gonna take some deep dives into what got him motivated and talking about this all important subject matter. Listen, Thio this lovely interview today with Kevin exclusively on the J. Allen show. Well, hopefully hopefully we don't go after males too much, but certainly have have some dialogue and discussion about where, you know, I, like, certainly talk about state of safety A zay said to you and and didn't really know. Um, you know, I think I'd prefer to have you kind of lead the Q and A. And I'd like Thio, you know, provide some of my feedback. Oh, don't worry. I normally will take the lead. We never know where we're going. We kind of know where we're going to start. We just never know where we're going to end. That's the eso, Kevin.
[00:01:58] spk_1: Let me
[00:01:58] spk_0: just ask you straight up. How did you get started with this whole world of safety? Well, how did it How did it start for you? Um, about while? 13 years ago, I was working for an avionics manufacturer. Um, I was in a production role and there was ah, posting a new posting were about 200 employees and we had to managers. Um, you know, one was Are you a manager? The other one was a one of our repair managers. Prepare manager had technical training on his desk, and the other manager had safety on his desk. And they decided to, uh, post a position for a full time corporate safety trainer and safety person. And I put my hat in the ring. There was six internal apse and four or five external APS, and at again, the day I had a pretty good training background from, ah long career in the I t industry. Um, health and safety was certainly something new to me, but not not something new in the sense that I wasn't, you know, aware of it or cognizant of it or or had feelings about. It s So when I interviewed for the position, I learned after the fact that most of the internal ones were really interested in doing the training because, you know, it involved travel. You got sent down to us to get trained up in different things. Nobody really showed much interest in the safety aspect, and I actually went in with a different approach and I was very much interested in the safety aspect, and the training was something I'd done felt it would be a good at on. So I was successful in getting that opportunity. I moved up into our quality assurance department. I had probably one of the best supervisors I've ever worked for in my life who, uh, continually supported me in my efforts and help you grow in the role and really allowed me toe to take ownership of the situation and, you know, kind of make it my own. And I think we showed a lot of success and improved the safety performance of the organization by quite a bit. And at the end of the day, we were in a high risk environment. There wasn't a whole lot of time loss injury. There was a few here and there, but it was an exciting process for me. But now, wearing two hats, I'm looking at opportunities. Well, hold on, hold on because you're gonna give us the whole story. And I only got into question. So let me Let's kind of let's backtrack a little bit. How did that the whole thing go for you? So you made it clear that you weren't excited about coming down to the U. S. I say that jokingly. But if this was new to you, what did you How did you start learning about safety? That you felt comfortable enough to jump in and say, Okay, let's run with it. Uh, just exactly. That's very good question J Just the beginning with the whole protest. The organization I worked for was quality management that, you know, we're in I s 0 9000 PS 9100 certified environment. So this this whole this whole process development thing was in my mind. So I right away, I read our corporate safety manual. Why is it written this way? So I got into our local, um, you know, our compensation boards regulations. Okay, Why? Why is this way? And then the first thing I learned about while I took a supervisor and another sort of one day training course while I talked about hazard recognition and and things like that. So I began to just slowly immerse the knowledge I was going to need to manage this thing. I think in my in my benefit, I worked again for an organization that obviously had to have a health and safety program. The nature of our work was a high risk and certainly not what it's like, what I do today. But at the end of the day, we still had opportunities for improvement, and that's what we did. We went for it, so I found it very exciting. I lifelong learners. I was on this learning curve, which I found very exciting, and I also had the opportunity. I think one of the most impressive things for me is on. I'm kind of people person. I like people that role a me, an opportunity tohave a relationship with every single person within the organization. I really, really cherish that. So do you feel to an extent to that? Maybe. And I'm just asking, of course, that sales skills kind of plays a big factor, especially kind of jumping into the starting off. I would say for sure, absolutely, and and if I had a weakness, because there's a funny caveat to your question, you know, after a number of years with this organization and I had received my professional designation, um, you know, you know, I'll use the word I thought maybe I was a little arrogant. I left the organization and put a put out my shingle. And now I'm a pro and you guys come to me and I'm going to consult. And you know what? Salesman at selling ability is really important. And I'm a very good salesman if I'm, you know, deeply knowledgeable about my 70 matter. But I was still on the learning curve here, so trying to go out and sell something, I wasn't even 100% confidence. I knew what I was doing just didn't really fit well for me. And I think that came across. I didn't get a lot of work. I got some work on. Guy got better at it. But I continue just to look for roles where I could expand my skills. I was fortunate. I got a really good role in the company that that reinforced reimburse me well, but it also gave me the opportunity to take deeper into the educational aspect. So I completed education, post secondary education, occupational health, open safety. And it wasn't because I was looking for the pedigree or the you know, the designation after my name. My whole goal was, what am I missing. And what information in here is gonna benefit me as I move forward in my career? And it was really quite it was It was profound how much I learned how much I improved, how much confidence I gained as a result of that. Well, let me ask you let me kind of jump in and ask a couple of strange things here. So most people that I speak to, they normally say that they either fell into this by accident or it was some form of punishment. You actually applied for the position, were able to do things with it. And you love the people interaction. Piece of it. So, as you started doing the people interaction, you're starting to learn more about it. You you were kind of going around a little a little bit. And some of the stuff from the information that I could that I could find it was designated as a corporate training trainer and safety coordinators. That is that the correct position? By looking? Yeah. Training ahead of safety. So did it become difficult as you're doing this combined role? No, not at all. I thought they were. They were to me They were kind of a natural fit because a lot of our training was technical based training. So within their we'd have lessons within health and safety. So I was able to kind of roll the two concepts together. We always put the safety dialogue in the front of any task so that people understood, you know, that's the way I started. Approach it right was, you know, let's talk safety first. And then let's talk about the path. Not really actually made significant changes around our our production floor. We had, you know, as many as 60 production people in the department. And what we're trying to do is just, you know, one of the main things we did. I think this is This is such an important factor is this is an organization who wanted to be a learning organization. So they appreciated employee feedback, and it was safe to speak up. I'm not saying to be critical, but you can certainly give management bad news. And you're not gonna be honest to reprimanded for, you know, pointing something. Oh, you're gonna be acknowledged. And then that issue is gonna be addressed. And that was really you know, powerful for me to see that. So I always felt that kind of went hand in hand. We'll definitely if it's something that needs to be spring. It's something that needs to be sprinkled onto other organizations, for sure. Nowadays, um, it seems that a lot of people don't want to hear exactly what's going on. So let me ask the strange question because of the of the transition that ends up taking place is your doing one thing one day. Then the next day you're the corporate trainer and safety coordinator. So do you get a lot of pushback from some of the people that do you from your previous role of Do you really know what you're talking about now? Uh, um, no, I don't think so. I think you know, I'll tell you why. I think it's because I exude this confidence. And, um, you know, I just you know, it's not baffling with I was going to use the word Bs, but, you know, it's not. It won't offend me. E don't know how many beats for love, but I guess it wasn't about athlete with Bs. It was about being very honest and up front with them, and I think I demonstrated and presented or projected this confidence and understanding of what we're talking about. But I think the strength to that Jay is always when you come across something that you don't know, Do you pretend you do or, you know, kind of or do you actually, honestly, upfront Say, Hey, that's a great question. I don't know that one. Can I get back to you? And I think that that humility there is important as well. You gotta have both. You've got to be the subject matter expert. But you also got to recognize you don't know everything and you're not gonna know everything. And you don't know what this person knows until you have that conversation. And it's important to recognize that you want that information. Oh, absolutely. So let me ask the question here. Then, when you start off on the journey, it will get to where you're where you're at now. But does it start off with a particular style of safety now? I just wanna know at that time not where you're at now. Of course, eso is the BBS. I will just add the extra B to the other bs that you're already talking. I mean, I I I don't think I was skilled enough to talk about behavioral based safety back in those days when I was really doing is just I think I was more interact Mary mode, uh, Maura, about when things come up. I think over time, um particularly as I worked through my my, uh, designation and started to get into the learnings of what that was all about Was I then able to actually, you know, blend that little better and and so on. So at what point during this journey? Now, of course, you've been doing this for quite a few years now. At what point during the journey do you all of a sudden start realizing that there's these different will say different kinds of safety? It's not just safety as people getting home, but there's these things that people kind of put in their individual buckets will say, like the different kind of evangelism. So what What, you discover this, um, I think it just it sort of was more of ah, slow immersion into the whole field. I'm going to conferences to be very honest with you. You know, going to some conferences and hearing some other professionals. I'm a big believer and, you know, if you want to succeed, to surround yourself with successful people. So you know, I'm reading into the works of, you know, the Sidney Dekker's and thought Conklin's. And as I said in my bio when I sent it in to you, I mean, I had an opportunity meet Bob Edwards last year. I know he's been a guest on your show. What was what was fascinating about all this language and all this dialogue for me is this is stuff I already lived and believed in him was using, you know, my my my career in at Northern Airborne. That's the avionics industry, and I, you know, it's very familiar, very similar in the US, you know, we're regulated by transport. Canada were heavily audited, heavily regulated, and I ran to departments that were audited on an annual basis without any conform on performances. So, you know, it was about that whole, that whole process there. But as we you know, as I got more into it, I started to recognize how important human element is, and I'd actually you know, what I was leading towards within the avionics industry. Human factors is a buzzword and something important. Hugh. Whole human factors concept actually came out of the aviation industry is a way back in the seventies when they started to look at their air in the rear management how they could fix things. They came up with human factors but notice course. And as I began to get into it, humans were involved in every aspect. Should we not make them the central and the focus part of how we're going to manage things, what tools that they need? What do they have to say to us? Um, you know, those types of things. So that's where I am continuing my path. So So who do you discover first? You did mention three names there. Of course, you said Bob Edwards was last year. You had to see him. But did you discover Sydney first or did you discover Todd first? Um, I discovered Bob first, um, we healthy. We had a big dog and pony show with my organization about a year and a half ago. Um, and it was through that process, I'd actually went up and introduced myself the ball and one of the breaks and shared with him a bit of my background. And, you know, you know, Bobby is a very passionate, you know, gregarious kind of guy. And he's like, you know, literally in front of all our executives in this, you know, there's 200 people in this room and he's he's this passionate doing is present patient. His arms are going. He's over the room and he's flinging his fingers and pointing right at me and saying, and you've got an expert right here, you know? So he was like, told me and and at the end of the day, I've never really been engaged in our process board plot. But that then preclude me from getting on the journey. So right away I reached out to Bob. Hey, Bob, What books should I be read? Also, he identified him, right? So right away, he gave me a list. So, you know, he started off with five principles, Of course, from doctor. He also talked about better questions. You know, we went into the guide, the Field Guide for Understanding Human Error. And then the last one he talked about was the tyranny of metric by devoured these books. And when I started reading in from I'm going this so aligns with my basic human philosophy that it's just a natural fit for me. And this is what I really believe it, right? I've been, you know, be honestly, I've been a frontline worker most of my life, So I've been on the other side of this. I've been at the sharp end of this day, and I understand the frustration that are felt by our work. I see it in my in my occupation as I you know, as you and I speak today, you know, in our asses You see this? Where does eso Where were your big frustration points before you discover Bob? So what are you looking at at the time that you're going, I'm flustered, and all of a sudden this is kind of like the ah ha moment when you're making these discoveries. Well, you know, I always have the Ah ha. I guess what I was waiting for is when will upper management have your hall? You know, because as much as we're touting these things and I think I said that when I reached out to you is, you know, where's the buy in at that next level that this stuff work? Because we have an organization whose professing it and wanting to implement it. Yet by action and by observation, you know, they're not they they're not Don't match, you know, the you know, the You know, it's very simple. I'm going through case management course right now, and it's, you know, the languages, and they're very simple. If you don't have that top level by and and board, what's more critical to this? If, uh, doesn't walk the talk, you have failure. I think that's the greatest thing I see is that we have these workers looking for guidance, and they've given a set of instructions like those instructions aren't even followed by the person giving it to him. So that double standard that hypocrisy that exists there. I think this creates massive wait, a whole bunch of mistrust. Nobody really knows what's going on. And when policies and procedures were written and fake and non descript ways, it's done on purpose. It it allows plausible deniability, allows your opportunity to take. You know this incident happened, What we can you know. We can kind of take this in any direction we want, rather than being proactive than given workers a clear set of expectations and what is expected government and have that in a dialogue. You know, whether that's performance review or however, that looks a tail box. Talk point is as well, having any set of clear expectations. What's the workers supposed to know what to do? And I think that's the message of the new view of safety, right? It's like they're the masters of the work. Should they not be the one that helped define how that work is done? And I'm I'm old, I'm on that bus, right? I totally believe in that as a work for myself. I believe in that now. I flipped the other side of the fence, but I didn't flip my personality. I still on the front line work. I still wanna work with these guys, and I want to make sure that they go home at the end of the day, you know, So when you start having when you start having the conversation inside of the organization where you're saying, Hey, look at these concepts and you're moving forward with it are people looking at you kind of questioning some of these things because they've already because he had something already there. Yeah, I think that I think the bigger concern I had was the roll out, You know, the way the company decided to roll out these things. You know, having somebody who begins, ah, talk on safe to and opens a conversation with. I don't have a background in safety, but I'm here, You know, that That kind of lost the whole audience and, you know, and and the passion, this is the passion business. You know, You you know you're not out here just bought knives and crossing tease because they're on, you know, that's what your possible you do. It's like passion. I believe in it. And I just haven't seen that yet. I see it in the top. I see it in our director for sure. He's very passionate about this, but he's one guy, and he's a long ways from where we are and many layers in between, and I just don't see a filtering downtown. So when you say that he's many layers different or apart from where you're located, what exactly do you mean by that? Like, how would you explain that to me? Well, just, uh, company organization, the work chart as well as geographical distance S o. Do you think this needs to be a buying from your perspective? Of course. A buying from the director level, The CEO level, the C suite per se before it actually gets into the field. Or do you think that it should be field ramping up? No, no, it's gotta go the other way. Talked down, right? You gotta have your top senior leaders, you know, speaking to it, which they do, but demonstrating actively demonstrating it. You know the best example I give of, you know, the You know what we say and what we do not be in the same is, you know, I've been in my role a long time and and I've had the same manager. And in all that time, my managers never once sat me aside and said, Hey, what do you think? What's going on here? So that lack of be interested in what's going on kind of speaks volumes. I think that that is, you know, it's about office, right? It's about, you know, the transparency optics and and, you know, So that was a person who is, you know, wanna you know, saying on a monthly or quarterly basis. Hey, you know, because I kind of oversee a lot of different people. And, you know, we have nine facilities that oversee and no, not seeing them out. They're not seeing them walk that talk. That's where that that message kind of just aids away like smoke fades away like smoke. That's that's interesting. And how you're putting that. Yeah, you know, And I think it is. I just way wanna have people who are enthusiastic about this, who are passionate, who who don't just it's not lip service anymore. It's actually actionable, and and they're willing to take the training. Eight. They don't have communications, So let's get communication. Let's, you know, let's understand. What is your communication style and how can we improve it? You know, you take a look at this and you're looking at other organizations and other people that are actually struggling with this. How would you actually tell them what the approach would be? Sorry. Could you repeat that? I had a quick cough? Yes. So how would you tell people to approach this, saying, for instance, there are other or bigger burden which people, Other organizations. That's what I was trying to get. So yes, eso other organizations that are starting through the journey How would you How would you if you were trying to lay this from the from the ground level up and you're all of a sudden you were getting this moving? How would you start started from scratch? I think right away is just getting the confidence or the assurance from senior management. That is, we get into the discovery of what's going on, that when workers are bringing up their issues, concerns and problems that it will not be held against them, that they could speak in a safe environment. That they could talk open and freely doesn't mean they could be disrespectful or any of those manners. But they certainly air their concerns on what I see and face all the time is when these concerns are aired in a point to something somebody above them should have been doing or was meant to be doing who isn't doing it, and all of a sudden you're kind of that person is losing face and you know you know where Which way the, You know, um, moisture travels. I won't say it goes downhill, but, you know, and so that that that break up part, they're So when me confined that you know that flip the mindset of that, that middle management set who's got pressure from above and what they're asked to produce. And yet that interaction with that worker it's a big you know. It's a big there's a big divide there. And I think that, you know, being a learning organization, being willing to listen to those you know to your front line worker. As soon as I read this, I mean, as soon as I read, you know, both the books, particularly five principles and Sydney's Human Air Book. I was just like, yeah, you know, this makes so much sense this would this would relieve, You know, we all know the research shows that a you know, a positive attitude. Workplaces is productive, right? It's, you know, production declines when when the environment declines and it just I guess, my question and why I wanted to come on as I was asking, you know, I I've been formulating this question to run by you to see if what discussion we get going is, you know, what is the business case? The business purpose for a change, a commander and autocratic management style? What, What what sense does that make or how does that benefit the organization as opposed to, ah, learning type of an organization who's really looking and at the floor and wanting to engage with their workers and help their work workers improve their work? Well, I'm just, you know, what is the, you know, eureka moment or the You know, the holy Yeah, this is that? Well, I e think that's part of the conversation starting off because you have to understand that most businesses, of course, are there for the purpose of making money. Agreed. So So that's the reason that there there, let's just be realistic. But then the conversation starting off from scratch when you're making that business model and moving forward, because here's where I have a hard time with the part of the conversations altogether is why do we always want to put safety as something separate opposed to it just not being part of the culture. So if you do the culture aspect opposed to doing safety culture. You can change some of these things, and I think that the learning environment is so crucial and, you know, you reference that you've got to speak with Bob Edwards and you know that he loves learning teams, something that you talked about very, very vivid about. Now there has been this other gentleman that I've been able to interact with by the name of Brent searching that he has actually written a book following up from where, Kinda where Bob Edwards and Andrea Baker were at. And he's He's talked about this, and it's called the Practice of Learning Teams. It's really just kind of building everything around that subject, and it's not just solely using it for safety and believe, and this is not a pitch for a moment for for Bread book. But at the same time, it just brings a different perspective. And I think that if organizations were kind of laying out the land on how they want to start a company, this would definitely be an excellent start. Now there's already companies that are established, but I think that if we take it down to the simple level of every day learning teams, which is much different than just learning teams based around events. You might really have something there that you could move forward with. Absolutely. Do you? So is my question back to you would be then, Do you not believe established organizations can can make the transition? Oh, I think that the that they can make the transition. But here you run into a couple of issues real quick, and it's normally a presentation issue. So let's say, for instance, that you have a company that's been established for about 20 years and they've been on a BBS journey, and all of a sudden you turn around and now you tell them that you're interested in having this conversation off doing something known as safety differently. Well, automatically, depending on how most companies are just based on what I've seen, they're going well, why are we trading something out that we've already spent so much money on? That's kind of the first thing. So it's all it's all in how it's positioned because if you're saying that it's a trade out, then all of a sudden this is going to become an issue But if you start talking about that, this is an enhancement or a bolt on. It becomes a different story because most
[00:26:37] spk_1: of
[00:26:37] spk_0: these companies invest that hundreds of thousands and sometimes even millions of dollars into this. And then when you get to the portion where most of the audience, of course, already does this, that safety differently or safety 2.0 is really a philosophy. It's the panic moment. So that's where the conversation changes. And it's really about how it's will say, not sold but how its approach to into the organization. I mean, I think there's a lot of value added, but it's a bolt on. It's something from where you've already started and then you're continuing a journey. But sometimes we'll say that we have the people that are the hard court, where they're like no, we race everything and start from scratch. And that's just not a realistic approach. What do you think? Um uh, well, I think it comes down to, you know, there's a term we use the safety all the time, the internal responsibility system. So I think it comes down to individuals to to you know, uh, it's psychology at the end of the day. What what's motivating this person? What? You know what's in it for them and and what's in it for the person that they support and what's in it for the person above them. And how do we make all those people feel appreciated and accomplished? Um, I believe learning teams is the best way to do it. I've never been a big I'm not a big fan of cause analysis, because I do believe in what what experts say is you know, it, Z, you're trying to point the finger at one person making a mistake, and even in the training I did in human factors may be honest. That's never the case. There's all kinds of things that have to come, you know, it's the Swiss cheese effect. So the idea behind the new view safety is I believe it is, and I think it fits in with my current work environment. Is my work environments react? What new view is talking about is being proactive. How do we look before the incident happened as the what those indicators are and make sure that we're looking and addressing that well, how do we know that you can't get that from your office. You can get that from the floor, observing or working or speaking with that person who's actually doing that work for the world. It can help you? Well, absolutely. And then the fun part is that when you kind of take a look at the big picture of everything on how this started and you find out that this is technology that people have been talking about for roughly anywhere between 25 30 years, depending on where you yeah, eso depending on where ever you pull the information up on. And this is something the Department of Energy has been doing and then some people, Well, this is the Institute of Nuclear Power operation was doing it as well. And go, This goes our back. How come that this has not become like a wildfire and not everybody is using it like, Wow, Has this not happened? That's a good question to you, I guess. I guess at the end of the day, I mean, when we think about learning team, you know, prior toe, you know, being in the avionics world actually worked 90. I was I was a consultant. I work I was IBM business partner and sold their products and learning teams was exactly the protests I used in that consultation to get that person the solution in the system that they needed. It's something I've been doing. It's just a Q and A right. It's just that allowing toe to get out of person, somebody the honest, what do they need? And I think that applies to the work floor. Um, you know, what do you need in order to do this safely and and I'm asking you I mean, I did a consulting job for for an organization who, unfortunately for them yet they were visited by the regulator and they had some deficiencies and, of course, to get orders written up and you know, very simple things that because they had really no, you know, they understand they need safety, but they weren't even tied into this process. So, for example, they had to machines that did the same thing, but the levers to operate. The machines were constructed in a different order, and there is no color, so they ended up with a worker who has always using this one machine and one day he had to move over the other one, and the letter was different. He locked finger off, and it was about, you know, just him being dialed into what he'd always been doing. He became complacent. He first thought he was on another machine and he had this event. So what we learned out of that was, well, one why the machines different? Why aren't the identical? So that was the first correction made. Then the other one we made was paint old handles, different colored. So green is for this job, and black is you know. So he learned that by working with that worker in that organization to really adhere, you know what is going on here? Well, this is a pawn. So by sitting down and hearing them and learning them and watching them go through their process, he made all the corrective marriage we had to in the courts. They haven't had any issues since, you know, that's four or five years ago now. So that type of stuff and I think that's what makes learn seems important is that we now you know this is the guy doing it. Isn't he the expert and don't we want to to. And if he brings up well, I can't do it because this is broken. Well, now he's just alerted that we need to do something. Maybe he felt fearful of going to management and saying, Oh, this is broken because management's always responded poorly. Whenever bottom bad news go back to the internal responsibility, we have to just, you know, relax on, do not take it personally and just, you know, want to address what the concern is absolutely well, Kevin, if people want to know more about you, where where they need to go to find out some more info? Well, uh, fortunately, I don't have my u r l up because I'm a full time employee, so I kind of put that down a few years ago. Um, you're welcome to share my email address of people want to reach out to me. I I love talking to this. I've recently joined the, uh, Canadian Society of Safety Engineering, and I do plan to get engaged there and help him with some of their ongoing issues and stuff. Just were we wanted, I guess right now, not only do I wanna work in a safety role. But I also want to promote safety as a profession. Eso eso. Can people reach out to you? Then via LinkedIn? Will that be the easiest way to do it? Now let's do that. That's a perfect choice. I'm on linked in. My name's under there, Um, and absolutely they could reach out. And, uh, one of the things I wanted to make sure which is important, J and all this for me is it's part of my career. Development was I've taken an adult instruction program. I completed a you know, a two year program. It's designed to teach people to teach in the vocational and college level, and it's all about, you know, creaking vine. And the whole is it is it's an education court. So within that, those natural attributes of being able to draw people and in those learning teams what's really important. But what I wanted to say to make sure I'm clear here on learning teams is that for them to be a successful people need to feel safe, pick up the environment isn't set up right in front that people that eat, then you're never going to get a genuine reflection on what? Yeah, so that I think it's critical and people need to, and I'm trying to reach out the worker who is part of that team toe. Just say I feel safe. I do need to share this information. What? Yeah, by all means. They can reach out on LinkedIn, and I would be more than happy to address any questions concerned and then get involved in organizations. If you wanna hear what I have to say, Well, Kevin, I really do appreciate you coming on to the show. Well, this will bring another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. Hopefully, you enjoy what Kevin had to say today during the show. As we're right around the corner during the week of Thanksgiving, make sure that you do spend some time thinking about what you're thankful for. I definitely know it's been a rough year this year. Let's not lie to each other about that portion. But, boy, is there a lot for us to be thankful for. Anyway. Thank you for listening to the J. Allen show. This will bring this episode to an end. Don't worry. We'll be back with another episode before. Too long. Good bye for now and Happy Holidays e once more of the J Allen show, don't you? Safety FM dot com
[00:35:22] spk_1: The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast, maybe reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik recording or otherwise, without prior written commission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.
Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is visited, this show is brought to you by Safety FM. Mhm. Well, hello and welcome to another rendition of the J. Allen show. Hopefully, everything is fine and great in your neck of the woods. If you are in the United States of America, this is the week of Thanksgiving. So, yes, that's what we have going on here today to some extent, of course, getting ready for all that fun and loving and all that fun stuff of food that you get. But that's for the most part of People are going out and about a good chunk of people that I knew were staying locked up, which I can understand for sure, especially with everything going on. But let's not bore you too much about people staying locked up. I'm sure you already familiar with that proportion below, but let's talk about what we have going on here today. So today I have the great opportunity. Speaking to Kevin Walled all he's a safety professional in a human and organizational performance change agent. He's definitely in love with concepts of hop and, of course, of learning teams. So today we're gonna have a conversation with Kevin we're gonna take some deep dives into what got him motivated and talking about this all important subject matter. Listen, Thio this lovely interview today with Kevin exclusively on the J. Allen show. Well, hopefully hopefully we don't go after males too much, but certainly have have some dialogue and discussion about where, you know, I, like, certainly talk about state of safety A zay said to you and and didn't really know. Um, you know, I think I'd prefer to have you kind of lead the Q and A. And I'd like Thio, you know, provide some of my feedback. Oh, don't worry. I normally will take the lead. We never know where we're going. We kind of know where we're going to start. We just never know where we're going to end. That's the eso, Kevin.
[00:01:58] spk_1: Let me
[00:01:58] spk_0: just ask you straight up. How did you get started with this whole world of safety? Well, how did it How did it start for you? Um, about while? 13 years ago, I was working for an avionics manufacturer. Um, I was in a production role and there was ah, posting a new posting were about 200 employees and we had to managers. Um, you know, one was Are you a manager? The other one was a one of our repair managers. Prepare manager had technical training on his desk, and the other manager had safety on his desk. And they decided to, uh, post a position for a full time corporate safety trainer and safety person. And I put my hat in the ring. There was six internal apse and four or five external APS, and at again, the day I had a pretty good training background from, ah long career in the I t industry. Um, health and safety was certainly something new to me, but not not something new in the sense that I wasn't, you know, aware of it or cognizant of it or or had feelings about. It s So when I interviewed for the position, I learned after the fact that most of the internal ones were really interested in doing the training because, you know, it involved travel. You got sent down to us to get trained up in different things. Nobody really showed much interest in the safety aspect, and I actually went in with a different approach and I was very much interested in the safety aspect, and the training was something I'd done felt it would be a good at on. So I was successful in getting that opportunity. I moved up into our quality assurance department. I had probably one of the best supervisors I've ever worked for in my life who, uh, continually supported me in my efforts and help you grow in the role and really allowed me toe to take ownership of the situation and, you know, kind of make it my own. And I think we showed a lot of success and improved the safety performance of the organization by quite a bit. And at the end of the day, we were in a high risk environment. There wasn't a whole lot of time loss injury. There was a few here and there, but it was an exciting process for me. But now, wearing two hats, I'm looking at opportunities. Well, hold on, hold on because you're gonna give us the whole story. And I only got into question. So let me Let's kind of let's backtrack a little bit. How did that the whole thing go for you? So you made it clear that you weren't excited about coming down to the U. S. I say that jokingly. But if this was new to you, what did you How did you start learning about safety? That you felt comfortable enough to jump in and say, Okay, let's run with it. Uh, just exactly. That's very good question J Just the beginning with the whole protest. The organization I worked for was quality management that, you know, we're in I s 0 9000 PS 9100 certified environment. So this this whole this whole process development thing was in my mind. So I right away, I read our corporate safety manual. Why is it written this way? So I got into our local, um, you know, our compensation boards regulations. Okay, Why? Why is this way? And then the first thing I learned about while I took a supervisor and another sort of one day training course while I talked about hazard recognition and and things like that. So I began to just slowly immerse the knowledge I was going to need to manage this thing. I think in my in my benefit, I worked again for an organization that obviously had to have a health and safety program. The nature of our work was a high risk and certainly not what it's like, what I do today. But at the end of the day, we still had opportunities for improvement, and that's what we did. We went for it, so I found it very exciting. I lifelong learners. I was on this learning curve, which I found very exciting, and I also had the opportunity. I think one of the most impressive things for me is on. I'm kind of people person. I like people that role a me, an opportunity tohave a relationship with every single person within the organization. I really, really cherish that. So do you feel to an extent to that? Maybe. And I'm just asking, of course, that sales skills kind of plays a big factor, especially kind of jumping into the starting off. I would say for sure, absolutely, and and if I had a weakness, because there's a funny caveat to your question, you know, after a number of years with this organization and I had received my professional designation, um, you know, you know, I'll use the word I thought maybe I was a little arrogant. I left the organization and put a put out my shingle. And now I'm a pro and you guys come to me and I'm going to consult. And you know what? Salesman at selling ability is really important. And I'm a very good salesman if I'm, you know, deeply knowledgeable about my 70 matter. But I was still on the learning curve here, so trying to go out and sell something, I wasn't even 100% confidence. I knew what I was doing just didn't really fit well for me. And I think that came across. I didn't get a lot of work. I got some work on. Guy got better at it. But I continue just to look for roles where I could expand my skills. I was fortunate. I got a really good role in the company that that reinforced reimburse me well, but it also gave me the opportunity to take deeper into the educational aspect. So I completed education, post secondary education, occupational health, open safety. And it wasn't because I was looking for the pedigree or the you know, the designation after my name. My whole goal was, what am I missing. And what information in here is gonna benefit me as I move forward in my career? And it was really quite it was It was profound how much I learned how much I improved, how much confidence I gained as a result of that. Well, let me ask you let me kind of jump in and ask a couple of strange things here. So most people that I speak to, they normally say that they either fell into this by accident or it was some form of punishment. You actually applied for the position, were able to do things with it. And you love the people interaction. Piece of it. So, as you started doing the people interaction, you're starting to learn more about it. You you were kind of going around a little a little bit. And some of the stuff from the information that I could that I could find it was designated as a corporate training trainer and safety coordinators. That is that the correct position? By looking? Yeah. Training ahead of safety. So did it become difficult as you're doing this combined role? No, not at all. I thought they were. They were to me They were kind of a natural fit because a lot of our training was technical based training. So within their we'd have lessons within health and safety. So I was able to kind of roll the two concepts together. We always put the safety dialogue in the front of any task so that people understood, you know, that's the way I started. Approach it right was, you know, let's talk safety first. And then let's talk about the path. Not really actually made significant changes around our our production floor. We had, you know, as many as 60 production people in the department. And what we're trying to do is just, you know, one of the main things we did. I think this is This is such an important factor is this is an organization who wanted to be a learning organization. So they appreciated employee feedback, and it was safe to speak up. I'm not saying to be critical, but you can certainly give management bad news. And you're not gonna be honest to reprimanded for, you know, pointing something. Oh, you're gonna be acknowledged. And then that issue is gonna be addressed. And that was really you know, powerful for me to see that. So I always felt that kind of went hand in hand. We'll definitely if it's something that needs to be spring. It's something that needs to be sprinkled onto other organizations, for sure. Nowadays, um, it seems that a lot of people don't want to hear exactly what's going on. So let me ask the strange question because of the of the transition that ends up taking place is your doing one thing one day. Then the next day you're the corporate trainer and safety coordinator. So do you get a lot of pushback from some of the people that do you from your previous role of Do you really know what you're talking about now? Uh, um, no, I don't think so. I think you know, I'll tell you why. I think it's because I exude this confidence. And, um, you know, I just you know, it's not baffling with I was going to use the word Bs, but, you know, it's not. It won't offend me. E don't know how many beats for love, but I guess it wasn't about athlete with Bs. It was about being very honest and up front with them, and I think I demonstrated and presented or projected this confidence and understanding of what we're talking about. But I think the strength to that Jay is always when you come across something that you don't know, Do you pretend you do or, you know, kind of or do you actually, honestly, upfront Say, Hey, that's a great question. I don't know that one. Can I get back to you? And I think that that humility there is important as well. You gotta have both. You've got to be the subject matter expert. But you also got to recognize you don't know everything and you're not gonna know everything. And you don't know what this person knows until you have that conversation. And it's important to recognize that you want that information. Oh, absolutely. So let me ask the question here. Then, when you start off on the journey, it will get to where you're where you're at now. But does it start off with a particular style of safety now? I just wanna know at that time not where you're at now. Of course, eso is the BBS. I will just add the extra B to the other bs that you're already talking. I mean, I I I don't think I was skilled enough to talk about behavioral based safety back in those days when I was really doing is just I think I was more interact Mary mode, uh, Maura, about when things come up. I think over time, um particularly as I worked through my my, uh, designation and started to get into the learnings of what that was all about Was I then able to actually, you know, blend that little better and and so on. So at what point during this journey? Now, of course, you've been doing this for quite a few years now. At what point during the journey do you all of a sudden start realizing that there's these different will say different kinds of safety? It's not just safety as people getting home, but there's these things that people kind of put in their individual buckets will say, like the different kind of evangelism. So what What, you discover this, um, I think it just it sort of was more of ah, slow immersion into the whole field. I'm going to conferences to be very honest with you. You know, going to some conferences and hearing some other professionals. I'm a big believer and, you know, if you want to succeed, to surround yourself with successful people. So you know, I'm reading into the works of, you know, the Sidney Dekker's and thought Conklin's. And as I said in my bio when I sent it in to you, I mean, I had an opportunity meet Bob Edwards last year. I know he's been a guest on your show. What was what was fascinating about all this language and all this dialogue for me is this is stuff I already lived and believed in him was using, you know, my my my career in at Northern Airborne. That's the avionics industry, and I, you know, it's very familiar, very similar in the US, you know, we're regulated by transport. Canada were heavily audited, heavily regulated, and I ran to departments that were audited on an annual basis without any conform on performances. So, you know, it was about that whole, that whole process there. But as we you know, as I got more into it, I started to recognize how important human element is, and I'd actually you know, what I was leading towards within the avionics industry. Human factors is a buzzword and something important. Hugh. Whole human factors concept actually came out of the aviation industry is a way back in the seventies when they started to look at their air in the rear management how they could fix things. They came up with human factors but notice course. And as I began to get into it, humans were involved in every aspect. Should we not make them the central and the focus part of how we're going to manage things, what tools that they need? What do they have to say to us? Um, you know, those types of things. So that's where I am continuing my path. So So who do you discover first? You did mention three names there. Of course, you said Bob Edwards was last year. You had to see him. But did you discover Sydney first or did you discover Todd first? Um, I discovered Bob first, um, we healthy. We had a big dog and pony show with my organization about a year and a half ago. Um, and it was through that process, I'd actually went up and introduced myself the ball and one of the breaks and shared with him a bit of my background. And, you know, you know, Bobby is a very passionate, you know, gregarious kind of guy. And he's like, you know, literally in front of all our executives in this, you know, there's 200 people in this room and he's he's this passionate doing is present patient. His arms are going. He's over the room and he's flinging his fingers and pointing right at me and saying, and you've got an expert right here, you know? So he was like, told me and and at the end of the day, I've never really been engaged in our process board plot. But that then preclude me from getting on the journey. So right away I reached out to Bob. Hey, Bob, What books should I be read? Also, he identified him, right? So right away, he gave me a list. So, you know, he started off with five principles, Of course, from doctor. He also talked about better questions. You know, we went into the guide, the Field Guide for Understanding Human Error. And then the last one he talked about was the tyranny of metric by devoured these books. And when I started reading in from I'm going this so aligns with my basic human philosophy that it's just a natural fit for me. And this is what I really believe it, right? I've been, you know, be honestly, I've been a frontline worker most of my life, So I've been on the other side of this. I've been at the sharp end of this day, and I understand the frustration that are felt by our work. I see it in my in my occupation as I you know, as you and I speak today, you know, in our asses You see this? Where does eso Where were your big frustration points before you discover Bob? So what are you looking at at the time that you're going, I'm flustered, and all of a sudden this is kind of like the ah ha moment when you're making these discoveries. Well, you know, I always have the Ah ha. I guess what I was waiting for is when will upper management have your hall? You know, because as much as we're touting these things and I think I said that when I reached out to you is, you know, where's the buy in at that next level that this stuff work? Because we have an organization whose professing it and wanting to implement it. Yet by action and by observation, you know, they're not they they're not Don't match, you know, the you know, the You know, it's very simple. I'm going through case management course right now, and it's, you know, the languages, and they're very simple. If you don't have that top level by and and board, what's more critical to this? If, uh, doesn't walk the talk, you have failure. I think that's the greatest thing I see is that we have these workers looking for guidance, and they've given a set of instructions like those instructions aren't even followed by the person giving it to him. So that double standard that hypocrisy that exists there. I think this creates massive wait, a whole bunch of mistrust. Nobody really knows what's going on. And when policies and procedures were written and fake and non descript ways, it's done on purpose. It it allows plausible deniability, allows your opportunity to take. You know this incident happened, What we can you know. We can kind of take this in any direction we want, rather than being proactive than given workers a clear set of expectations and what is expected government and have that in a dialogue. You know, whether that's performance review or however, that looks a tail box. Talk point is as well, having any set of clear expectations. What's the workers supposed to know what to do? And I think that's the message of the new view of safety, right? It's like they're the masters of the work. Should they not be the one that helped define how that work is done? And I'm I'm old, I'm on that bus, right? I totally believe in that as a work for myself. I believe in that now. I flipped the other side of the fence, but I didn't flip my personality. I still on the front line work. I still wanna work with these guys, and I want to make sure that they go home at the end of the day, you know, So when you start having when you start having the conversation inside of the organization where you're saying, Hey, look at these concepts and you're moving forward with it are people looking at you kind of questioning some of these things because they've already because he had something already there. Yeah, I think that I think the bigger concern I had was the roll out, You know, the way the company decided to roll out these things. You know, having somebody who begins, ah, talk on safe to and opens a conversation with. I don't have a background in safety, but I'm here, You know, that That kind of lost the whole audience and, you know, and and the passion, this is the passion business. You know, You you know you're not out here just bought knives and crossing tease because they're on, you know, that's what your possible you do. It's like passion. I believe in it. And I just haven't seen that yet. I see it in the top. I see it in our director for sure. He's very passionate about this, but he's one guy, and he's a long ways from where we are and many layers in between, and I just don't see a filtering downtown. So when you say that he's many layers different or apart from where you're located, what exactly do you mean by that? Like, how would you explain that to me? Well, just, uh, company organization, the work chart as well as geographical distance S o. Do you think this needs to be a buying from your perspective? Of course. A buying from the director level, The CEO level, the C suite per se before it actually gets into the field. Or do you think that it should be field ramping up? No, no, it's gotta go the other way. Talked down, right? You gotta have your top senior leaders, you know, speaking to it, which they do, but demonstrating actively demonstrating it. You know the best example I give of, you know, the You know what we say and what we do not be in the same is, you know, I've been in my role a long time and and I've had the same manager. And in all that time, my managers never once sat me aside and said, Hey, what do you think? What's going on here? So that lack of be interested in what's going on kind of speaks volumes. I think that that is, you know, it's about office, right? It's about, you know, the transparency optics and and, you know, So that was a person who is, you know, wanna you know, saying on a monthly or quarterly basis. Hey, you know, because I kind of oversee a lot of different people. And, you know, we have nine facilities that oversee and no, not seeing them out. They're not seeing them walk that talk. That's where that that message kind of just aids away like smoke fades away like smoke. That's that's interesting. And how you're putting that. Yeah, you know, And I think it is. I just way wanna have people who are enthusiastic about this, who are passionate, who who don't just it's not lip service anymore. It's actually actionable, and and they're willing to take the training. Eight. They don't have communications, So let's get communication. Let's, you know, let's understand. What is your communication style and how can we improve it? You know, you take a look at this and you're looking at other organizations and other people that are actually struggling with this. How would you actually tell them what the approach would be? Sorry. Could you repeat that? I had a quick cough? Yes. So how would you tell people to approach this, saying, for instance, there are other or bigger burden which people, Other organizations. That's what I was trying to get. So yes, eso other organizations that are starting through the journey How would you How would you if you were trying to lay this from the from the ground level up and you're all of a sudden you were getting this moving? How would you start started from scratch? I think right away is just getting the confidence or the assurance from senior management. That is, we get into the discovery of what's going on, that when workers are bringing up their issues, concerns and problems that it will not be held against them, that they could speak in a safe environment. That they could talk open and freely doesn't mean they could be disrespectful or any of those manners. But they certainly air their concerns on what I see and face all the time is when these concerns are aired in a point to something somebody above them should have been doing or was meant to be doing who isn't doing it, and all of a sudden you're kind of that person is losing face and you know you know where Which way the, You know, um, moisture travels. I won't say it goes downhill, but, you know, and so that that that break up part, they're So when me confined that you know that flip the mindset of that, that middle management set who's got pressure from above and what they're asked to produce. And yet that interaction with that worker it's a big you know. It's a big there's a big divide there. And I think that, you know, being a learning organization, being willing to listen to those you know to your front line worker. As soon as I read this, I mean, as soon as I read, you know, both the books, particularly five principles and Sydney's Human Air Book. I was just like, yeah, you know, this makes so much sense this would this would relieve, You know, we all know the research shows that a you know, a positive attitude. Workplaces is productive, right? It's, you know, production declines when when the environment declines and it just I guess, my question and why I wanted to come on as I was asking, you know, I I've been formulating this question to run by you to see if what discussion we get going is, you know, what is the business case? The business purpose for a change, a commander and autocratic management style? What, What what sense does that make or how does that benefit the organization as opposed to, ah, learning type of an organization who's really looking and at the floor and wanting to engage with their workers and help their work workers improve their work? Well, I'm just, you know, what is the, you know, eureka moment or the You know, the holy Yeah, this is that? Well, I e think that's part of the conversation starting off because you have to understand that most businesses, of course, are there for the purpose of making money. Agreed. So So that's the reason that there there, let's just be realistic. But then the conversation starting off from scratch when you're making that business model and moving forward, because here's where I have a hard time with the part of the conversations altogether is why do we always want to put safety as something separate opposed to it just not being part of the culture. So if you do the culture aspect opposed to doing safety culture. You can change some of these things, and I think that the learning environment is so crucial and, you know, you reference that you've got to speak with Bob Edwards and you know that he loves learning teams, something that you talked about very, very vivid about. Now there has been this other gentleman that I've been able to interact with by the name of Brent searching that he has actually written a book following up from where, Kinda where Bob Edwards and Andrea Baker were at. And he's He's talked about this, and it's called the Practice of Learning Teams. It's really just kind of building everything around that subject, and it's not just solely using it for safety and believe, and this is not a pitch for a moment for for Bread book. But at the same time, it just brings a different perspective. And I think that if organizations were kind of laying out the land on how they want to start a company, this would definitely be an excellent start. Now there's already companies that are established, but I think that if we take it down to the simple level of every day learning teams, which is much different than just learning teams based around events. You might really have something there that you could move forward with. Absolutely. Do you? So is my question back to you would be then, Do you not believe established organizations can can make the transition? Oh, I think that the that they can make the transition. But here you run into a couple of issues real quick, and it's normally a presentation issue. So let's say, for instance, that you have a company that's been established for about 20 years and they've been on a BBS journey, and all of a sudden you turn around and now you tell them that you're interested in having this conversation off doing something known as safety differently. Well, automatically, depending on how most companies are just based on what I've seen, they're going well, why are we trading something out that we've already spent so much money on? That's kind of the first thing. So it's all it's all in how it's positioned because if you're saying that it's a trade out, then all of a sudden this is going to become an issue But if you start talking about that, this is an enhancement or a bolt on. It becomes a different story because most
[00:26:37] spk_1: of
[00:26:37] spk_0: these companies invest that hundreds of thousands and sometimes even millions of dollars into this. And then when you get to the portion where most of the audience, of course, already does this, that safety differently or safety 2.0 is really a philosophy. It's the panic moment. So that's where the conversation changes. And it's really about how it's will say, not sold but how its approach to into the organization. I mean, I think there's a lot of value added, but it's a bolt on. It's something from where you've already started and then you're continuing a journey. But sometimes we'll say that we have the people that are the hard court, where they're like no, we race everything and start from scratch. And that's just not a realistic approach. What do you think? Um uh, well, I think it comes down to, you know, there's a term we use the safety all the time, the internal responsibility system. So I think it comes down to individuals to to you know, uh, it's psychology at the end of the day. What what's motivating this person? What? You know what's in it for them and and what's in it for the person that they support and what's in it for the person above them. And how do we make all those people feel appreciated and accomplished? Um, I believe learning teams is the best way to do it. I've never been a big I'm not a big fan of cause analysis, because I do believe in what what experts say is you know, it, Z, you're trying to point the finger at one person making a mistake, and even in the training I did in human factors may be honest. That's never the case. There's all kinds of things that have to come, you know, it's the Swiss cheese effect. So the idea behind the new view safety is I believe it is, and I think it fits in with my current work environment. Is my work environments react? What new view is talking about is being proactive. How do we look before the incident happened as the what those indicators are and make sure that we're looking and addressing that well, how do we know that you can't get that from your office. You can get that from the floor, observing or working or speaking with that person who's actually doing that work for the world. It can help you? Well, absolutely. And then the fun part is that when you kind of take a look at the big picture of everything on how this started and you find out that this is technology that people have been talking about for roughly anywhere between 25 30 years, depending on where you yeah, eso depending on where ever you pull the information up on. And this is something the Department of Energy has been doing and then some people, Well, this is the Institute of Nuclear Power operation was doing it as well. And go, This goes our back. How come that this has not become like a wildfire and not everybody is using it like, Wow, Has this not happened? That's a good question to you, I guess. I guess at the end of the day, I mean, when we think about learning team, you know, prior toe, you know, being in the avionics world actually worked 90. I was I was a consultant. I work I was IBM business partner and sold their products and learning teams was exactly the protests I used in that consultation to get that person the solution in the system that they needed. It's something I've been doing. It's just a Q and A right. It's just that allowing toe to get out of person, somebody the honest, what do they need? And I think that applies to the work floor. Um, you know, what do you need in order to do this safely and and I'm asking you I mean, I did a consulting job for for an organization who, unfortunately for them yet they were visited by the regulator and they had some deficiencies and, of course, to get orders written up and you know, very simple things that because they had really no, you know, they understand they need safety, but they weren't even tied into this process. So, for example, they had to machines that did the same thing, but the levers to operate. The machines were constructed in a different order, and there is no color, so they ended up with a worker who has always using this one machine and one day he had to move over the other one, and the letter was different. He locked finger off, and it was about, you know, just him being dialed into what he'd always been doing. He became complacent. He first thought he was on another machine and he had this event. So what we learned out of that was, well, one why the machines different? Why aren't the identical? So that was the first correction made. Then the other one we made was paint old handles, different colored. So green is for this job, and black is you know. So he learned that by working with that worker in that organization to really adhere, you know what is going on here? Well, this is a pawn. So by sitting down and hearing them and learning them and watching them go through their process, he made all the corrective marriage we had to in the courts. They haven't had any issues since, you know, that's four or five years ago now. So that type of stuff and I think that's what makes learn seems important is that we now you know this is the guy doing it. Isn't he the expert and don't we want to to. And if he brings up well, I can't do it because this is broken. Well, now he's just alerted that we need to do something. Maybe he felt fearful of going to management and saying, Oh, this is broken because management's always responded poorly. Whenever bottom bad news go back to the internal responsibility, we have to just, you know, relax on, do not take it personally and just, you know, want to address what the concern is absolutely well, Kevin, if people want to know more about you, where where they need to go to find out some more info? Well, uh, fortunately, I don't have my u r l up because I'm a full time employee, so I kind of put that down a few years ago. Um, you're welcome to share my email address of people want to reach out to me. I I love talking to this. I've recently joined the, uh, Canadian Society of Safety Engineering, and I do plan to get engaged there and help him with some of their ongoing issues and stuff. Just were we wanted, I guess right now, not only do I wanna work in a safety role. But I also want to promote safety as a profession. Eso eso. Can people reach out to you? Then via LinkedIn? Will that be the easiest way to do it? Now let's do that. That's a perfect choice. I'm on linked in. My name's under there, Um, and absolutely they could reach out. And, uh, one of the things I wanted to make sure which is important, J and all this for me is it's part of my career. Development was I've taken an adult instruction program. I completed a you know, a two year program. It's designed to teach people to teach in the vocational and college level, and it's all about, you know, creaking vine. And the whole is it is it's an education court. So within that, those natural attributes of being able to draw people and in those learning teams what's really important. But what I wanted to say to make sure I'm clear here on learning teams is that for them to be a successful people need to feel safe, pick up the environment isn't set up right in front that people that eat, then you're never going to get a genuine reflection on what? Yeah, so that I think it's critical and people need to, and I'm trying to reach out the worker who is part of that team toe. Just say I feel safe. I do need to share this information. What? Yeah, by all means. They can reach out on LinkedIn, and I would be more than happy to address any questions concerned and then get involved in organizations. If you wanna hear what I have to say, Well, Kevin, I really do appreciate you coming on to the show. Well, this will bring another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. Hopefully, you enjoy what Kevin had to say today during the show. As we're right around the corner during the week of Thanksgiving, make sure that you do spend some time thinking about what you're thankful for. I definitely know it's been a rough year this year. Let's not lie to each other about that portion. But, boy, is there a lot for us to be thankful for. Anyway. Thank you for listening to the J. Allen show. This will bring this episode to an end. Don't worry. We'll be back with another episode before. Too long. Good bye for now and Happy Holidays e once more of the J Allen show, don't you? Safety FM dot com
[00:35:22] spk_1: The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast, maybe reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik recording or otherwise, without prior written commission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.