We then discuss the lowest point in his property ventures, when he lost 50% of his assets and was waking up in a panic every night, and the moment he decided to move to Australia. Join us on this exciting adventure with Amir Ishak.

Timestamps:
00:01:42 | Where it all started
00:04:39 | “Eat your lunch then go home”
00:06:38 | $500 closer to freedom
00:13:09 | Papers give you pocket money
00:14:50 | New job, less money?
00:19:55 | Do or don't? : Dubai 
00:23:39 | Finding your feet on new soil
00:26:57 | No house? No bride.
00:31:49 | The beginning of the end

Resources and Links:

[00:32:16] my friends were making money, I was making money, we were all making money.  And I did overextend myself. And with the GFC, it all came crashing down.

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategy.

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode, we talk with property tax expert Amir Ishak. Ishak has lived an extremely well-travelled life. We follow his upbringing from growing up in Egypt to the UK, to Australia. He explains the worst moment of his life when all of the properties he bought plummeted to 50% in value and the best moment when his income doubled overnight. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Ishak grew up with family values that focused on education and wealth. His passion for all things property came from his parents, and became viable through his job as a tax specialist. 

Amir Ishak:   

[00:00:23]  I'm a property tax specialist. I work at Property Tax Specialists. I'm a principal advisor and client director. And we look after people who are passionate about properties. And I'm also being passionate about properties myself. It’s a very good fit for me.

Tyrone Shum:  

He shares what a typical day looks like for him.

Amir Ishak  

[00:00:50] We help people with property, protect their assets and pay the optimum amount of tax and I use the optimum word, not minimal. Because it's relevant for each person, it's important for people to pay their fair share of tax. Not too much, not too little.

Tyrone Shum:    

Ishak is no stranger to challenges. He’s lived in many different countries and faced different obstacles in each one.

Amir Ishak:   

[00:01:42] So I was born in Egypt, and lived there till I was seven, specifically in Cairo. And then my mother— both my parents were academics—  my mother got a PhD in the UK in a city called Exeter in Devon. So I lived there from the age of seven to 14. So most of my childhood, I've still got friends there. Good memories. And then we moved back to Egypt, studied there at the University in Egypt. Got my first job in Egypt, and also did some studying in the US to get my USCPA. And then I moved to Dubai, between Dubai and Abu Dhabi and I worked there for about 13 years. So I've had quite a diverse, then I moved to Australia. And I've been here for about eight years now.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:02:42] Just share with us a little bit more about your childhood— I'd be keen to know, what was it like living in Egypt?

Amir Ishak:   

[00:02:49] My initial childhood when I was young, I don't have a lot of memories from it. It's strange, even though I left at seven, I've got lots of family memories, but not a lot. But moving to the UK was a big shift. I remember that. I couldn't speak a word of English when I moved. So that was quite challenging. And all throughout my life I’ve been put in positions like that, where I have to fight, struggle and continue to survive.

Tyrone Shum:   

Ishak and his sister followed their mother to the UK as she accepted an opportunity she  just couldn't turn down.

Amir Ishak:  

[00:03:27] My mother was doing her PhD in English literature. She's a professor in the university. So she got a scholarship to do her PhD in the UK. And my sister and myself moved with her. My dad was working in Algeria at the time. So it was very interesting times.

Tyrone Shum:   

The career move paid off for her. Ishak explains that his mother is now at the top of her field.

Amir Ishak:    

[00:04:07] She's a professor. She's an academic. She's a professor. She's the head of the... she's always been academic career. And she's a Dean now in one of the major universities in Egypt.

Tyrone Shum:  

It probably comes as no surprise that education was held in very high regard in the Ishak household, but things were once different for a young Amir Ishak. 

Amir Ishak:  

[00:04:39] I remember the school I went to before, and I remember the first day— or my mum keeps telling me the story. The first day I went to school— we were quite young in Egypt, we were about four— and my mum told me, ‘You'll go to school, they'll teach you some things, you’ll eat your lunch and then you go home.’ So as soon as I sat down, I ate my lunch, because I wanted to go home. And my mum was watching me through the window and that story's been with me since then. And that's the kind of person I am. I just want to get things done. Just, you know, that's that, job done. Move on.

Tyrone Shum:   

He finished his primary education in the UK and then moved back to Egypt to start high school.

[00:05:29] I left in the last year of primary. We went back to Egypt. My mother got her PhD. I was starting to be a bit rebellious at 14, so she thought she'll get me back before she loses control. I think it was a good move. It was... that was a real challenge. Moving back from the UK back to Egypt at that age. Having the British accent and everyone's more Americanized in Egypt, it was quite challenging in school. So I had to shift my accent, I had to adapt a lot. And it's all about adapting at this age. It's all about adapting.

Tyrone Shum: 

[00:06:05] Which one are you inclined now? More British accent? Aussie accent? US accent?

Amir Ishak:   

[00:06:11] It's a confused accent. It's a very confused accent, I would say. Which confuses people, they can't put their finger on it.

Tyrone Shum:   

When he was old enough, his father taught him an extremely valuable lesson and also provided him with life experiences he’ll remember forever.

Amir Ishak:  

[00:06:38] After I went back to Egypt, I was about 14. So I did high school there and I also did University. And after university, I got a job straight away. But during university, I think one of the key things about how I got to here is my dad did something I consider very smart, and I'd love to do to my kids. He gave me $500 and a ticket to somewhere. And he’d tell me, “You finish, you go, you've got school holidays, you finish the money, you come back. You work, you stay till University starts and then you come back.” 

So I spent a lot of time as well working. For most of the year, everyone would be going off to the coast and things like that. I'd be travelling, like, call it a working holiday. So it was quite interesting for me. In the Egyptian culture, it's not very common to do that. So it was quite a good experience for me.

Tyrone Shum: 

I bet you’re wondering where he went with the $500!

Amir Ishak:  

[00:07:57] The first time I went was in the second year of uni. That was to the US, I had a friend who was a good friend of mine, he migrated to the US. So the structure would, I’d find the place to stay. So I wouldn't be paying accommodation with friends. And the money would just be spending money or if I found a job, I could continue. So that's a very interesting story coming back to think about that, because in the US that year, I was helping a guy renovate his house. Which fits in quite well. I didn't think of it before, but it fits in quite well. So I did a lot of painting for him. I had no clue what I was doing. So under his supervision, I was just doing bits and things around the house. And he actually had recently bought it. It was a kind of attic. It was really good, nice, nice house. And he got a valuation after a month of doing the reno it... I think, from memory, it was about $200,000 more than he had paid for it. And you're talking that was in 1998. 

[00:09:11] We put some walls, we created a couple more rooms, we painted it, we did a lot of work. It was quite an interesting experience for me.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:9:19] Oh, absolutely. And I'm assuming you got paid for it? Or you did it just as a, you know...?

[00:09:24] Oh yeah, 8that's how I managed to stay three months in the US.

Tyrone Shum:  

His airfare to the US was given to him by his father. 

Amir Ishak:    

[00:09:46] That was my kind of passing the year gift. That was his gift to me. I either get the money and stay and squander it with my friends or do something for life experience. And that was his way of teaching me the value of money.

Tyrone Shum: 

He further explains how he was able to sustain living in America. 

Amir Ishak: 

[00:11:11]  From the money I made that month, I stayed there for two months, to tell you the truth, and enjoyed it. I had my holiday. So that was my strategy. It's finding the right balance. You can have as much money in the world. But if you don't enjoy it, it's not worth much. So it's finding the right balance. It's always been about that. And I think this was instilled at a very young age by my parents. It's an important value they gave me, I think.

Tyrone Shum:  

Although he has so many great memories from the trip, one stands out in particular. 

Amir Ishak: 

[00:11:46]  I went camping. It was the first time for me to be away from my parents. So it was a big experience. I did a lot of travelling on my way back, I called them, “Just stayed in New York for five days!” It was an interesting experience for me. The following year, I went to Europe as well. And then did similar things. I met some people, stayed with them and went around Europe. So it helps you see different perspectives. And I think understanding different perspectives has made me who I am today. It's not only coming with one point of view, it's talking to people, it's meeting different people. And it's understanding how they think and why they think that way. And that helps me understand more, and has made me to who I am today, I think.

Tyrone Shum:   

With everything going on in Ishak’s life, you’d assume he didn't have time for that first job at a young age.

Amir Ishak:   

[00:13:09] I remember, I got my first job, I was quite big for my age. And I remember he got me a first job. He came home one day and told me, ‘I got you a newspaper delivery job.’ And you're supposed to be, like, 12 to get it and I was only nine. He just said, “I just filled in the forms for you. You've got it.” And I did that for a few years. So that was my first job. And I'd get to keep the money. I was the richest one of my friends because I'd get my pocket money and I had you know that the additional money from my job. So that was actually my first job.  

Coming up after the break, we explore the lowest point of Ishak’s life...

[00:33:23] Look, waking up in the middle of the night not being able to breathe, I would classify that as one of the lowest points in my life.

The downside to living in Dubai... 

Amir Ishak: 

[00:21:05] There are a few months that you need gills to breathe.

The mindset that hindered his move to Australia.

Amir Ishak: 

[00:23:34] And for the four years I was here, that's, I think, how I viewed it. And in hindsight, that was totally wrong.

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

 

After living in America for a year, he returned home and began travelling as much as he could with friends, or sometimes alone. 

Amir Ishak:  

[00:13:56] I went back to Egypt, another year of uni. Then the following year, I went to Europe, stayed in the UK for a month, then with the money I made I travelled to Europe for two months. I went round Europe staying either in hostels or by myself or with friends. So that was another very interesting trip. And then I travelled for the last year of uni. Worked straight after uni in Price Waterhouse at the time, got a really good job in accounting and audit and just started my career from there.

Tyrone Shum:   

[14:35] So tell us, what did you study at uni?

[00:14:38] I did business with an accounting major.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:14:42] Yep. And obviously, that led you into Price Waterhouse? 

Amir Ishak:  

[00:14:50] I started my career in audit, which is, I think a very good place to start because it opens up the horizons. So I started my career in PwC in audit. During that time, my parents also always used to say, well, education, because they're both academic, they valued education. So my father funded my trips to the US to get the USCPA because it really boosted my career. I remember he was one when I started working. I was making less than the pocket money I was getting while I was at uni as a grad in Price Waterhouse. So they did support me a lot throughout. And after PwC— Price Waterhouse— I moved to the United Arab Emirates. I got a job in the government, which helped me study. If I say the details, I think people will be impressed! I used to go to work 8:30, finish at 3:30. And I used to get two months holidays the next time. 60 days a year.

Tyrone Shum:   

Ishak’s life was full of so many grand things, yet he says the small things are the ones that matter the most. 

Amir Ishak:   

[00:16:30] So I did that for a few years, then I moved on. In hindsight, when I look back, every single step got me to where I am today. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Ishak travels a lot with his wife and two kids. He has made a travel schedule for himself so he gets the maximum experience out of his trip.

Amir Ishak:   

[00:17:56] My view of travel is: I don't sleep. When I'm travelling, I don't sleep. I try to see and absorb everything I can. It's a lot harder since I've been married with two kids. But what I usually do is I split my day in two. The first half with them, and the second half me running around doing everything else that they don't want to see. And that works well. My wife is happy she's home. She's getting her coffee. I'm out running about and that, I think, works well for both of us.

Tyrone Shum:   

One year he used the money he had saved to travel through Europe with some mates

Amir Ishak:  

[00:19:00] So Europe, I only went for a couple of months after the UK. So with the money I made from the UK, I travelled Europe. I went to France, stayed there for a month, went to Belgium, Holland, and just travelled around Europe seeing as much as I can see and enjoying as much as I can enjoy during that time, before going back to uni for the next year. So that was Europe. But then after that, I worked in PwC. After a couple of years in PwC I moved to Dubai. I worked for the government, really, really nice job, got bored and went and did more challenging and fun stuff. 

** Tyrone Shum:  

Eventually, Ishak found himself living in Dubai— a city he says isn't for everyone. 

Amir Ishak:   

[00:19:55] It's very interesting. You either love it or hate it because I was there for such a long time, people either love it or hate it. The people who love it enjoy the quality of life, this level of service. And it's just a different level than a lot of other places in the world, because everything's new and shiny. It kind of spoils the rest of the world for you. Because you're used to everything being shiny. When you go to Europe, everything's quite old, there's no AC’s, you feel a difference. I know that sounds a bit spoiled or rich, but that's the reality of it. They started off with a clean slate, and they went very fast, very strongly. And I think they have achieved a lot in a very short time.

** Tyrone Shum:   

Although it’s flashy and new looking, there is a major downside to living in a desert city like Dubai. 

Amir Ishak:  

[00:21:05] there are a few months that you need gills to breathe. It's the amount of humidity. No matter what people tell you, unless you've experienced it, it's a very strange feeling. It's like opening the oven and you know when the heat comes out? That's the kind of thing when you go out. Especially for people like myself who wear glasses. It's very annoying with the humidity. So that's not the best thing. But there is a lot you can do there, there is a lot to enjoy. You're three hours away from 50 different countries. The amount of travel you can do is amazing. 

Being in Australia, I think that's a big shift. You're flying in a plane for five hours, and you're still in Australia, as opposed to being three hours, [or] five hours of going to a different continent. So the location is central. Of course, culturally, there are differences. But having lived in different places, I understand that, and I appreciate that. Some people might find that a bit confronting, but that's the way it is. I think I wasted four years in Australia, wanting to go back.

If I'd come with the mindset that I've moved to Australia, I'm gonna live here, I think I could have done a lot more. And, in hindsight, that's one of the few things I kind of wasted time on, because it was such a big shift moving from there. The income levels are very different. The lifestyle is very different. The travel is very different. The closeness to family is very different. So I think as a family group, our whole objective was to stay in Australia for a few years and move back. And I think that wasted four years of my life. Looking back instead of looking forward, and as soon as I made the shift that Australia is now home, my whole perspective changed. That's been building momentum since then. 

** Tyrone Shum:   

Ishak admits that the transition between the United Emirates and Australia was a big one. 

Amir Ishak:  

[00:23:39] It's a big shift, especially for us. I was very young, I was quite successful in my career. Money is tax-free. I was making a lot of money, I was investing, I was making more money. It was a kind of very different lifestyle than Australia, even the mentality and the perspectives is quite different as well.

Tyrone Shum:   

So that leads me on to ask you then, why did you move or make that decision to move to Australia? What was the turning point?

Amir Ishak:   

[00:24:10] The turning point, like I said, I think the decision to move to Australia was a temporary decision initially, to move to Australia. I'd reached a certain level in my career where I was quite young for the positions I was holding. And to progress further, I needed a different experience. So Australia was kind of the stepping stone to get me to the next level. 

And for the four years I was here, that's, I think, how I viewed it. And in hindsight, that was totally wrong. Once we lived here, we loved the country. My kids love it. They call it home now. We're at home, it is home. And it took me a while to forget the past and look to the future. And that shift, I think as soon as it happened and things started to change and go in the right direction for me.

Tyrone Shum:  

So, if Ishak moved here with the wrong mindset, what was the purpose of his relocation? 

Amir Ishak:   

[00:25:13] I hadn't worked in, let's say, developed country. So I'd worked in the Middle East, I’d worked in Egypt. So Western experience was a hurdle for me, that I had no Western experience. And that was the main driver to come to Australia to get the western experience.

Tyrone Shum:  

Before he got here he had to go through the migration process, which was a lot easier than you’d expect.

Amir Ishak:  

[00:25:41] I did apply, and I got it. They just changed the system. And I was because of the number of points I had, it was quite fast. And my wife said yes. So let’s go. She'd been saying no, no, no. And then all of a sudden, she said yes. So it made sense to come. And we made the move. And my kids were quite young at that time, so they weren't going to feel a big transition.

Tyrone Shum:  

Ishak takes us back to his first memories of the property world and the moment he realised how profitable the industry could be. 

Amir Ishak:    

[00:26:57] I remember I would go with my granddad, he’d take me to church on Sunday. And after that, we'd walk. He used to walk. I was his minion! He’d take me everywhere walking. He didn't have a car, he just loved walking. And I think probably that's why I love walking as well. So he’d take me— he had two buildings that he'd collect rents from, that he owned. And we'd go with the receipts, he showed me how to write the receipts. And maybe I was five at the time. But I still remember doing that, because it was so much walking for me. 

Yeah, that was the first experience for me. And in hindsight, that was kind of where it started. And then my parents also were... they always used to tell me, we save in property. So looking at my parents, both academics, it's not a very highly paid job, but they created most of their wealth through property. So they would always buy a property in a new developing area, find the appreciation, and then they would buy the right time and sell the right and that they were really good at that. And I think that's something they showed me and taught me, and it was always good to discuss with them. 

Back to my first property, I was actually forced to buy my first property. I went and I was courting my wife currently, but at the time [my girlfriend]. So my father in law met... he said, I want to meet you. And then he was asking me, ‘Well, do you have a house?’ I said, ‘No, I live in Dubai. Why should I have a house in Egypt?’ Do you have this? Do you have that? So, you know, all the standards that have to be met. And I was kind of taken aback. And at the end, he said, ‘Sorry, not good enough.’ So yeah, it was a bit of a wake up call. So during that trip, because I had two months of holidays, I went, searched, and bought an apartment. Just so that box ticked kind of thing. 

Not because I saw it as an investment. I saw it as something I needed for my next time because I felt so bad. So that was my first property. It was a very good look. In hindsight, I did marry his daughter. Persistence, I think is a common theme in my life. I'm quite persistent. But I did buy that apartment and it's done quite well for me. So that was my first actual property that I buy with my own money. 

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:29:51] can I just ask, culturally, is that something that's sort of expected within Egyptian culture before you get married?

Amir Ishak:  

[00:29:58] Yes, it is. There are cultures and subcultures. And it's quite complex. But yes, there are certain things that the man gets and certain things that the woman gets. And usually, the house is on the man.

Tyrone Shum:   

The first part of starting any development is securing the down payment, so how did Ishak manage?

Amir Ishak:   

[00:30:49] After my job with the government, I went and worked with a financial institution in Dubai, which is a subsidiary of one of the largest developers there. So I was on a very high salary. And it almost doubled overnight. So I had a lot of cash, I had a lot of access to funding, and I had a lot of access to opportunities. And that's when everything clicked. Having said that, the first property I saw as an opportunity, I didn't have enough to buy it. What I did was, I had a lot of good friends who trusted me, and I trusted them. And we pooled our money together to buy that opportunity. And it did quite well for us at the time. 

Tyrone Shum: 

Although Dubai has many restrictions when it comes to development, he still managed to develop his first property.

Amir Ishak:   

[00:31:49] In Dubai you don't have access to development sites as much unless it's really big scale. It was just units, and it was flipping. And in hindsight, I did buy a lot of properties, because I had access to funding. I had access to really good deals. I had a really good network. So I was buying a lot. I was aggregating and my friends were making money, I was making money. And I did overextend myself. And with the GFC, it all came crashing down. It was lack of experience, mostly. And a feeling that I can do this. I was quite young, inexperienced during that process, but it was an eye-opener for me. 

I was always telling my wife, as long as I can keep my nose above water, because I was in deep negative equity at the time. House prices, some of the properties I owned, went down 50%. Yeah, it was very painful. But I had sold a lot just before it hit. So I was relatively cashed up. So I managed to survive it, like I told her and as soon as the property break even I’d get rid of it. And I managed to clear everything just before I moved to Australia.

Tyrone Shum:   

Although he was loving his lifestyle, the drastic hit he took during the GFC affected him.

Amir Ishak:   

[00:33:23] Waking up in the middle of the night not being able to breathe, I would classify that as one of the lowest points in my life. But having said that, in the middle of that I remember, I sat with my wife. And I told her look, it was really bad and really tough situation for both of us. But I told her if I can survive this... and I put goals. I remember at that time, I told her look, I said I want to buy a Mercedes. It's convertible. I want to do this. I want to do that. In the middle of, you know, I was in deep in debt. And having the focus and working hard, luck, everything just combined. And a few years later, I went back when I moved to Australia, I found that list of my objectives and things I wanted to do. And almost every single one of them on that list was ticked off, including moving, getting Western experience.

In a future episode of Property Investory, we’ll continue the conversation with Amir Ishak and explore what he would have done differently... 

[00:01:59] I think I wouldn't have exposed myself so much to property. I had maybe 12 properties at the time. A lot of them were still under construction. Projects fell over.

We explain how research led him to a great investment decision... 

[00:06:01] That property went up $300,000 since then. 

We also hear a recent achievement he’s proud of.

[00:21:15] I've just been nominated as property tax accountant of the Year for the Australian accountancy awards.

And that’s next time in a future episode of Property Investory.