Practicing Strategic Vulnerability with Erika Burnett
March 19, 2021
You may have heard about being strategic and about using vulnerability but have you heard about strategic vulnerability. If you are a leader, you will need to listen to this episode. If you want to stretch yourself, you will need to listen to this.
Join in on this amazing conversation with Erika Burnett as she talks about why she is not sorry for practicing strategic vulnerability.
You may have heard about being strategic and using vulnerability, but have you heard about strategic vulnerability. If you are a leader, you will need to listen to this episode. If you want to stretch yourself, you will need to listen to this.
Join in on this amazing conversation with Erika Burnett as she talks about why she is not sorry for practicing strategic vulnerability.
About the Guest: Erika R. Burnett is an experienced leader, strategic thinker, and passionate advocate for addressing root problems facing women across the nation. She is the Executive Director of the Chattanooga Women’s Fund and focuses her work on leading local and state advocacy, encouraging women-led philanthropy, and creating strong women networks in the southeast region.
Join in on this amazing conversation with Erika Burnett as she talks about why she is not sorry for practicing strategic vulnerability.
About the Guest: Erika R. Burnett is an experienced leader, strategic thinker, and passionate advocate for addressing root problems facing women across the nation. She is the Executive Director of the Chattanooga Women’s Fund and focuses her work on leading local and state advocacy, encouraging women-led philanthropy, and creating strong women networks in the southeast region.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is This show is brought to you by Safety FM. Welcome to unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for If you're a person that is tired of apologizing for being you, you know the human part of you that sometimes feels like it has to be different at home versus work versus play. The human side
[00:00:30] spk_0: that just wants to be hot,
[00:00:31] spk_1: humble, open and transparent about your wants, desires and uniqueness. If you answered yes, this is for you. Join me, Emily Elrod as I dive into conversations with Amazing Guest. About what? That you're not sorry for And creative and loving ways. Let's get started. Hello, everybody.
[00:00:52] spk_0: Welcome back to another unapologetically bold I'm not sorry for. And I'm so blessed to have one of my good friends with me. Erica, Welcome.
[00:01:01] spk_0: Thank you, Emily. I'm so glad to be here.
[00:01:04] spk_1: This is gonna be such a great conversation because I just I just love being around you because you grow and you stretch me every time we're together. And just the things that you say I don't even know
[00:01:16] spk_0: if you don't know that you do
[00:01:17] spk_1: this or not, but you have a gift for it. It's just the first time I met you. You You said thank you for, uh, this space allowing us to have space together. Something in the in that Burbage and like, Wow, she's an awesome human. I was like, I want to understand more about some of the things that she said, because it's so true. It's like how we don't honor people in spaces and we take them for granted. And that's a beautiful thing that I love about you. Is that you? You don't You acknowledge them and you want to. I know one of your missions is inclusion
[00:01:51] spk_0: and making people feel welcome
[00:01:53] spk_1: and together and powerful. Um, so thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:01:59] spk_0: Well, thank you for making space for for us to have this conversation. You set the bar pretty high already, though it believe I don't live up to it. But I'm excited to dive in and be able to have some conversation today.
[00:02:10] spk_1: Awesome. So before we get started, if you'll just tell listeners a little bit about yourself,
[00:02:16] spk_0: Absolutely. So this part is always the most difficult, right? I I tell folks whenever I'm being introduced by a moderator and they read your bio. I usually come behind and say Y'all I do stuff right? Like, this is this is just who I am. This is how I navigate the world. And it actually goes a little bit into our topic that we're going to discuss today. It's it's who we are in different spaces is truly based on. I feel like what's needed in that space and what I know to be true as a woman. What I know to be true as a woman of African descent, right, is that, um we wear many, many hats in different spaces. So I am a friend. I am a colleague. I am an educator. I'm a bridge builder. Um, I am a sister. Anti girlfriend. So too many, Um, I'm a nonprofit professional. And so for folks who need like Okay, what are the accolades, right? I have a mentor who calls are a B CS everything that goes behind our our nays. Um, I am a non profit professional. My area of expertise has been really diving into what communities need in order to thrive based on their definition of success. And really, that's been my guiding compass and So I've done that from inside the classroom. Um, from inside of a jail sales, um, from working with nonprofits that have, you know, million dollar budgets to those that are on shoestring budgets. And, um, in regards to my actual capacity and my titles, I I have the honor of serving as executive director for the Women's Fund. A greater Chattanooga. Um, that's been my newest endeavor. And that led me here to the city where I got a chance to meet amazing women like yourself. Um, I also am a co conspirator for organization called the Women of Color Collaborative, which is absolutely my my passion project. And I also in a small business owner. I run the Burnett Group LLC, where we seek to inspire professionals, um, and deepen their impact when it comes to issues that most are are prevalent to our community and so that we can think about really stretching and growing ourselves in a way that ultimately helps our communities grow as well.
[00:04:31] spk_1: Um, and I love that and anybody that knows me that listens to this. They know that my big impact and what I love for people to continue to learn is about how environment really can impact us all together. And there's this thing called human organizational performance. I've rephrased it a human system performance because these systems that we may not know about policies and procedures, how much they impact us without us knowing. And we say we can control the controllable.
[00:04:59] spk_0: So there's some things
[00:05:00] spk_1: that we don't know, how much they control and may own us that may not be aware of. So that's the thing that I love that you do in the work in the space. So the show is called unapologetically bold. Erica. What are you no longer apologizing for?
[00:05:18] spk_0: Emily, I am not sorry for practising strategic vulnerability, and this is a concept that you know, has evolved. I can absolutely say that it's evolved for me over time, but it has its roots truly in the trenches of my early twenties, working with a nonprofit organization that center the experiences of of young people. So it was probably I'll call it my second big girl job where, you know, I had responsibilities attached to measurables and deliverables. I was in my early twenties. I quickly determined that being inside of the classroom was not where I was going to have the most impact. And so I I understand the principles of education. Um, I get how learners, right, like, won't learn and make meaning of the world around me. That's something that that that gets me excited. But I also knew that I could not have the type of impact that I wanted to have with my students by teaching them Shakespeare when they were dealing with needing to work a job in order to provide for their families. Or that there was a shooting right where a family member was injured. Um, just earlier that morning, and so I I shifted my focus and decided that in order for me to sort of marry that academic side with that very practical what does impact looked like at a community level, Um, desire for myself, that youth development work was probably going to be the best like next step and very quickly. What I recognize is that we are often well intended in the nonprofit sector, and yet we missed the mark, and it's sometimes by design, which is a whole other conversation about the non profit industrial complex. But sometimes it's by default and what we don't see that's happening again. Think about systems like you mentioned earlier is that we're actually exploiting the same populations that were seeking to, at least in theory, um, amplify what's important to them and prioritize and center not only their needs, but their identity. So the way that that started to show up for me in this field of work is that I found that we were token izing our young people, and I'm using we generously. But the reality is, um, in most organizations that I have had experience with the individuals who were at that coordinator level right who have the direct contact with a lot of the clients, usually by design Also. Then I'll have some shared lived experience, and for us it was mostly by identity, racial identity specifically. And so you have black and brown folks working with black and brown kids mhm. And then, as I like to say, the folks with shiny shoes and the offices with the glass doors, you know, that sort of, um, line the perimeter of our building typically did not look like us or the Children or young people that we serve And yet when we have a big fundraiser or an open house, right, you put at the front quite literally, door. Um, these Children who? Yes, this is the population that we're working with and that we are serving and that we're raising money for. But, you know, the girl Scouts do a wonderful job of of what we call in sort of the nonprofit, um, organizational management, a ladder of leadership. And so you're thinking about what? And that's usually a great association for folks, right? How do you climb that ladder? As a girls count, there's also levels to the depth of engagement right from a day zero brownie all the way up to that senior level. And that has to do with the way in which you are bringing that Girl Scout into the fold of their experience. And so how much autonomy do they have, right? How much leadership do they have? And ultimately, how much voices say do? Are they able to, um, insert into that process? The same is true when we're thinking about these young people or any volunteer or any client that we're working with. And for me, the sweet spot and the beauty of working with amazing women who are social workers by trade, right who have been that times by fire in this world is that then we're able to put language to it. What we recognize is that one for job security purposes. We still have to make sure that these dollars are flowing into our organization. But we also need to protect these young people. And so we started to do modules lead modules with our young people around, um, strategic storytelling.
[00:10:13] spk_1: So
[00:10:14] spk_0: how do you own your story in a way that allows you to protect your power and the integrity of some pretty traumatic events while bringing people in. Right. So there's a there's an art to this storytelling, and eventually what that morphed into me is this understanding around how to be strategically vulnerable enough that you're able to bring people into the fold of their of your understanding, which facilitates their understanding of not only self but also you and then ultimately, as an educator, what's important is that it gives them a different perspective of the landscape. Mm hmm. And so for me, that idea of strategic vulnerability was birthed out of necessity. of needing to protect my young people, Emily, right? I needed sensical safe and secure. But then it also presented an opportunity of growth and exploration for me of then how do I center my own lived experience in a way that allows me to own a certain level of power that maybe by design, has been stripped right or categorized as a deficit, but then also invites you in as an outsider in a way that ultimately moves the diet. There is a goal here, right? We're telling of the vulnerability is not just for storytelling, invulnerability, purpose. We have somewhere to go together. But I need you to be on the same train with me. And so the way that I invite you in is like handing you this golden ticket of now humanizing me in a way and making my lived experience accessible enough that you're able to see yourself as a passenger on this train.
[00:11:58] spk_1: Mm, That's so powerful. And it goes back to there's two things that really I can think of. This too, is one not token izing people is one that's huge that I've seen happen too many times just for in our um, just to make some money out of it, and I do think that's another conversation. But I think the other thing that goes with it is being strategic whenever to tell your story. And if you're asking somebody to tell her story, make sure they're ready for it because that sometimes they're not ready to be able to tell their story, and then you're going to be consoling them. And what if you just made it worse? What if you're making them relive those memories whenever they were not able to really come like to put it together? And you just put them on a stage and said, Go for it. We believe in you. What's the after effects? So I'd love for you to go a little bit more in. This is the strategy of it on, even if you're telling a story like I had a podcast, um, with Trey and she talked about some of her life that she had some of her, um, brother was murdered whenever she was in her twenties, and she talked about her story
[00:13:16] spk_0: through that.
[00:13:18] spk_1: But what it was was her goal through that whole process of telling that story was to talk
[00:13:23] spk_0: about our purpose afterwards.
[00:13:25] spk_1: It wasn't just to give you information. It's. And for her it's to impact the next generation so that they won't have to walk in that those shoes of unforgiveness and how much power. So for people that are hearing this and I feel like everybody
[00:13:39] spk_0: has a story,
[00:13:41] spk_1: how can we help them to practice strategic vulnerability with this we
[00:13:47] spk_0: So there's a couple things that come to mind. The first thing you I appreciate you naming that is in in one of the sectors are worked and we talked about the container. Do we have the proper container to hold the weight attached to this story? Two and in both parties, Right. How the one who is telling the story is this safe for you? Is this a farming for you? Right, But then also the individuals who are receiving the story. What's the aftermath, right. And do we have the right tools in place outlets that are available and resources that are available should there be a reaction? Um, I am a risk management guru, And so for me, I I say I'm gonna poke holes in every single plan I want to think about the worst case scenario. It doesn't mean that I'm still not going to do it. But I want to think about the worst case scenario so that we can be prepared and the reality is that emotional and mental risk that's involved with our own strategic vulnerability. We are human and it is truly an outpouring of what is real and what is lived in what is true for us. And we have to be prepared to be able to handle that in a way that doesn't cause more harm, right? Do no harm in this process and it has to start with self. If there is a story, I used to work as a community organizer and we talk about the the story of self a lot in order to bring people into whatever your your your campaign is or your goal is. If part of that story of self is still traumatizing, you, probably we can leave it out. Everyone doesn't need to know every bit of the details. That's the strategic part of it, right? I get to look at the entire puzzle that makes of this experience and decide I'm going to take out that peace and that peace and that peace. And it needs to be smart. That's that's the strategy behind it. Does it still create enough cohesion and understanding that people are able to connect to it right? Does it create sort of this arc of, of learning and experience in order for folks to be guided somewhere? So there has to be strategy involved. So the first thing is, we're absolutely going to make sure we have the right container, whatever that means, both for the individual sharing. But then also for the audience to that there were really intentional about what the goal is. So what is the purpose of this story? What is the purpose of me sharing? And how is it moving the conversation or our relationship right or the ultimate goal forward? Because if it's a story just for stories sake, there is no strategy there, Um, and so we want to make sure that whatever this is that it is leading us towards something, I'm big on frameworks, Emily and so one of the frameworks that I love to use, because for me, it's how we make I call it how we make meaning of the world around us. It also gives a shared language. And so I believe that our psycho socialization is pretty much the foundation of how we interact with other people and ourselves situations, any of that. And for our listeners, because I'm an educator. The psycho socialization is you're born, you're taught things. You then have experiences that reinforce or negate what you're taught, and then you go on to teach, right? And so I introduced this this psycho socialization by using a story about my girlfriend who's afraid of dogs. It's quite easy to walk through that cycle from, you know, fear. Dogs being chased by dogs. Being bitten by a dog can have a child. And now I teach the dog my childhood fear of dogs. Easy where I end is with a pretty heavy story about how my interactions with white male superior figures in the workplace was rooted and my grandfather and my father's interactions in the workplace when I was little right, and so how you can deconstruct a power dynamic that I never even knew was It was never consciously talk to me, right? It's never intentionally brought to to our family conversation, but how I absorbed it through these experiences at such a young age. That's the strategic vulnerability right there, right? It's bringing people in around, quite literally, a little black and white dog, comfortable and ending in a place where we understand how systems have been perpetuated around hierarchy and power and that specifically relates to identity dynamics. So what is the strategy there? And then the other thing is to be laser focused and again where it's positioned in relation to the larger context. So I gotta be going somewhere with this right. I'm not just telling the story to tell the story and then just sort of walking away. But it's nestled in a way that our brains are able to connect that with the larger picture.
[00:18:56] spk_1: That's so beautiful, too, because if you come out with some right off with talking about the the deeper story with your grandparents and what has been taught through to you like that's gonna shut off some people and that's that's the beauty of the strategy aspect. And it's to open up doors for open understanding and what I I
[00:19:19] spk_0: find it, and it's those conversations,
[00:19:21] spk_1: or maybe and I love
[00:19:22] spk_0: that you that you
[00:19:23] spk_1: refer to yourself as an educator because if you are a true educator like like Erica is doing, if anybody, you can see how she walks and it's not to force it down your throat, it's to open up a space for possible understanding. It's not saying Hey, you have to believe this way It's just saying Hey, I'm going to be vulnerable and be open and trusting that you will hear this out. You you will create a space for it. So for me, when did you first start practicing strategic vulnerability? Because like it doesn't That's something that it is learned like so you have to probably unlearn some things and relearn other things to get to hear.
[00:20:04] spk_0: I you know, I'm not sure if I can pinpoint the moment, but I will say that my work with young people definitely helped because they are unapologetically who they are, and they are not really respect her of persons. When it comes to you know, I will say this. It has to be earned. What I recognized is I couldn't sit with this group of young people, um, day in and day out you know, and expect for them to trust me and to be raw with me and to be open with me if they didn't feel the same thing back. My story was not their story, right? I did not grow up in public housing. My family was on government assistance. But if we're talking of the lived experiences of teenagers who are growing up in public housing, who are attending underfunded schools, that was not a part of my reality. And so, in order to connect with them, we always we and this is, you know, a word to the wise. It's not a story for story. I'm not trying to find a story to match your story. So now we can be on the same plane. Please don't do that right. But it was important for them to see and understand exactly who Miss Erica was, right? Whatever that looks like, that they truly understood that. And I was actually thinking about this. I'm glad you brought this up before our time together because it takes a lot of putting ego aside, especially as a woman, especially as an African American woman, especially as a young African American woman in my field because what I am taught that I need to do and how I should behave in order to succeed based on dominant cultural standards is the exact opposite of strategic vulnerability, right? And so I had to put on a shelf. Even that notion of Ms Erica has to have it all figured out. Miss Erica has to be buttoned up. Miss Erica has to present in a way that commands respect, because with those teenagers, they did not care. And beyond that, you are perpetuating the very thing right in the very systems that were supposedly there to help sort of uproot them out of and liberate them from. To a certain degree, it may not look the exact same, but it was absolutely an extension of that. And so for me it was getting raw. But then, also realizing, as my supervisor will remind all of us, you're still the adult in the room.
[00:22:42] spk_1: Mhm.
[00:22:42] spk_0: And so if I have to be raw in a certain to a certain degree. But I also have to be the adult in the room that is strategy and vulnerability, married hand in hand, right and its finest and So for me, that's really where it started, what's necessary in order to bring them in enough that we have a genuine relationship, that we can achieve our goals. And these are now adults, right? Actually, one of them and I love telling this story. Jordan was one of my students when I worked at this particular nonprofit in Nashville. She's now on the board for the Women of Color Collaborative and not tokenized as over the young person on our board. She's a fully functioning adult with a, you know, professional career who serves on the board of a non profit that is helping to amplify the needs and voices of other women of color. And so, in order for that relation, to ship to have thrived and now being a place where she is serving on a board for my organ, on the board, for my organization, there was something that she needed to see that was relatable 10 years ago, right?
[00:23:47] spk_1: Oh, and everything that you're saying makes you think on how strategic vulnerability is everything apart of leadership and just building. I'm thinking from the psychological safety side of it, and basically the the safety of the body I call, which is serotonin, and then you're also bringing oxytocin, which is the loving grandmother. Basically, you're creating a space for trust, love bond, along with a space of safety and security. But it's also in the aspect that as a leader,
[00:24:18] spk_0: we have to be
[00:24:19] spk_1: strategic with it. We have to like, even in essence, safety for our own Selves. Not we don't want to do it just to cover our butts. But the thing is, is that you are still in the position and I hate to say power, but you're still in a position of leadership, which is a gift, and you don't want to diminish it. So I did not know where this conversation was going, but I love it even more on how it's opened my eyes because I want to challenge the audience that is listening in on how can they apply strategic vulnerability to their life. So what are some ways that we might invite them into that space of, of starting that out on being strategic, but also vulnerable with their people that they are leading?
[00:25:08] spk_0: So one of my go to a Trojan big on frameworks? What am I go to is to think about your identity circle. If you've never done in that activity around my identity circle, it's pretty simple. You can consider what we categorize as both primary and secondary dimensions of your identity. Those primary dimensions are those things, like, often so you can check a box. You opt into this, opt out of that so race, ethnicity, um, economic status, educational attainment, right? Those are oftentimes things that you will find an application or a piece of paper are oftentimes our primary dimensions. Secondary dimensions get a little more tricky. They're oftentimes things. Unless you engage in conversation with someone you may not know about them, but ultimately what you're gonna do is sort of plot when there's a map of concentric circles, Um, or I mean, really, it can be a list for yourself of what is most present for me in regards to my identity, Um, what informs our influences, how I see and navigate the world, or how the world sees our allows me to navigate. And so one example I give here is I'm a millennial. I know what year I was born, Emily like it's not going to change. It wasn't until roughly about seven years ago or so in some of my professional work. I realized that we're blaming everything that was wrong in the workplace. On those are millennials, right? And so millennial made its way to the center of my identity circle because I recognize that it influenced how people saw me or perceived me in a space, even if it wasn't a priority for me. I use that identity circle as a launching point for understanding your own strategic vulnerability because it is your story of self we talk about with kids. They bring this sort of invisible backpack with them every day to school or the situations that they may be in. It could be hunger. It could be poverty. It could be growing up in a multi lingual household. It could be that your parents are well educated in your world travel. Whatever those experiences are. That sort of cultivate who they are, right? Think about a teacher in the classroom. He or she is there, met with that backpack every single day with that kid, right? For good, bad or indifferent as we assimilate, Um, as we sort of integrate into life as adults. We forget that we to carry those same backpacks. It may be a briefcase, right? It may be a knapsack, but whatever it is we carry with us also, what are some of those things in that backpack that we can pull out that allows for us to be a little bit more vulnerable, a little bit more human, right, and tap into something that it takes a little bit more, a deeper dive to truly understand about you but can build a point of connection. So my absolute starting point would be do some some, you know, exploration of self around your identity circle. What are some of those those stories? Um, I tell folks all the time that I didn't know that we were on public assistance. I thought everyone shops at a grocery at a warehouse with vouchers and stood under pictures of a pig or an apple or a pear or whatever it was to give your ration for the week. And it wasn't until I transition to a different school in a different state. And I'm sitting in a homemade class and we're talking about where would we go grocery shopping for our list of ingredients right that I recognize that my life experience was very different from the lived experience of my other students in that classroom. That small moment now is an opportunity for me to pull out something from my book bag for my knapsack from my briefcase to use as a point of not only remembrance in my interactions with other populations, but also as a reminder of why we create space for all experiences. And so that's for me. That is the goal of strategic vulnerability. It's how do I bring people in enough that we can find some common ground? It doesn't have to be the same but common ground enough that there's some greater understanding that occurs here. I also my second point, would be to identify sort of where you feel most disconnected for folks, and oftentimes what we look at our identity circle. It's the place where we're able to operate with power and privilege. Her societal standards right when you're a part of the dominant culture, I am able bodied. That puts me in dominant culture when it comes to ability. Because of that, I have the privilege unearned privilege to, um not necessarily remember that there are other individuals who are differently abled in certain spaces. And so I have to intentionally recall that for myself enough to be inclusive, uh, by where you are part of the dominant culture as an aspect or dimension of your identity. And maybe that's a really great place for you to start to think about what? What are ways in which you can be a little bit more vulnerable. That can help sort of shorten that bridge
[00:30:18] spk_1: a man and the one thing I love about the students. What you said earlier, too, is that your story may not be their story, either. On that, so it makes me first. My first thought is that I'm right handed in my father's left handed and like first learning like in ergonomic design, everything is made for right handed people. And then we go, I'm a I'm a white female. Your person of color, like ours is totally different lived experiences, but understanding just just to see through that perspective. And I love that it's that related this, that maybe there's a way that we can, as you say, you build the bridges like your your bridge builder for people to understand and maybe step out. And what I also love about what you're talking about two is my people here know that I no doubt about the self determination theory about Desi and Ron. And that is the one thing that you're really honing in on is complete autonomy. Relatedness com seat. Give them the information, teach them, help them grow. Give them the choice to decide. I'm not gonna force it down your throat. I'm gonna give you a choice to see if this is something and then it's got to be relatable. Finding a relatable way that we can open up in strategic vulnerability is one of those amazing ways.
[00:31:28] spk_0: So, Erica,
[00:31:29] spk_1: I love everything about this. So two part final question. That first part people are apologizing for using strategic vulnerability. What would you tell them?
[00:31:40] spk_0: Stop it. Um, I mean one. I I think as and I look, I make a living a really censoring my lived experience. I also think it's just part of of my unique design and wiring and calling in this life. So we apologize too much, right? If this is your truth, let it be your truth, Um, when we feel as if we're at that point, especially as women are those who identify as women where it's like, Oh, I'm being too. And if we're going to fill in the blank with, like, emotional or any of those words that feel Oh, my gosh, they're they're they're overused when it comes to a specific gender right or gender identity stop.
[00:32:21] spk_1: Someone
[00:32:22] spk_0: needs that someone needs an invitation to not only you, but to themselves, through you and for me. That's the important piece. Am I? Before I tell a story on a training, whether it's something that I'm being paid for or not, I go am I gonna feel better or worse after telling this story? And there's one Emily that I tell around, um, colorism, but it's still a little hurtful for me, but what I know is somebody needed to hear that story. And little Erica
[00:32:53] spk_1: was little
[00:32:53] spk_0: Erica and what she thought and how she felt about a white baby doll versus a black baby doll. There is nothing that I can do to change that, but I can live and and move forward from a place of this is affirming because someone needs to understand the power of marketing, right? I wanted to understand how this gets internalized because they never would have thought about it, especially if they live in that dominant culture. And so, my my answer is Stop apologizing and recognize that it's not only for you, but it's for someone else.
[00:33:26] spk_1: Amen. I'm a meeting that one like tenfold. I love everything about that Erica, and I guess the second part of that is people love hearing what you're saying, and they want to learn more about what you do or just how they can connect with you. How can they do that?
[00:33:41] spk_0: Absolutely. So I mean, a couple of places, depending on what happened you want me to wear? Um, As I said, the Women's Fund of Greater Chattanooga is a wonderful organization to connect to. If you want to think about impact, especially on a systems level, um, right across the state of Tennessee. And so we are at China Good Women's fund dot org. Um, you can also find us on on all the social media platforms by the same name, um, my work with the Women of Color Collaborative as a co conspirator is a space where we intentionally curate opportunities for women of color to connect, um, and amplify their voices through centering their lived experience. Everything you talk about from a theory perspective, Emily. That is where that lives in that world where we want to identify. How do we take that theory but really central identity as a part of it? Because it looks different for everyone, especially around race and ethnicity. We think about power dynamics, and so we love not only to connect with women of color, but we know we need allies in this work. And so we are at work, play build on all the things. So it's work. Playbill dot org work, play build on all social media platforms. And then, if you're interested in sort of tapping into some of this, um, little goodness around learning and organizational psychology and leadership through the Burnett Group, you can find me at Burnett Group T N. As in Tennessee, um, on all the platforms, and that's B u R N a t T. Um group TN.
[00:35:10] spk_1: Thank you so much, Erica for your time and thank you just for your authenticity. Your your openness and and being strategic vulnerably during this time or vulnerability, strategic during this time and just an amazing conversation. I thank you. And I'm so grateful for you and for all that have listened in have an amazing and blessed day. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for this test shoot anyway, please, like and subscribe and share with your friends as we continue the message of being unapologetically bold by being hot. Humans who are humble, open and transparent. See you next time.
[00:00:30] spk_0: that just wants to be hot,
[00:00:31] spk_1: humble, open and transparent about your wants, desires and uniqueness. If you answered yes, this is for you. Join me, Emily Elrod as I dive into conversations with Amazing Guest. About what? That you're not sorry for And creative and loving ways. Let's get started. Hello, everybody.
[00:00:52] spk_0: Welcome back to another unapologetically bold I'm not sorry for. And I'm so blessed to have one of my good friends with me. Erica, Welcome.
[00:01:01] spk_0: Thank you, Emily. I'm so glad to be here.
[00:01:04] spk_1: This is gonna be such a great conversation because I just I just love being around you because you grow and you stretch me every time we're together. And just the things that you say I don't even know
[00:01:16] spk_0: if you don't know that you do
[00:01:17] spk_1: this or not, but you have a gift for it. It's just the first time I met you. You You said thank you for, uh, this space allowing us to have space together. Something in the in that Burbage and like, Wow, she's an awesome human. I was like, I want to understand more about some of the things that she said, because it's so true. It's like how we don't honor people in spaces and we take them for granted. And that's a beautiful thing that I love about you. Is that you? You don't You acknowledge them and you want to. I know one of your missions is inclusion
[00:01:51] spk_0: and making people feel welcome
[00:01:53] spk_1: and together and powerful. Um, so thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:01:59] spk_0: Well, thank you for making space for for us to have this conversation. You set the bar pretty high already, though it believe I don't live up to it. But I'm excited to dive in and be able to have some conversation today.
[00:02:10] spk_1: Awesome. So before we get started, if you'll just tell listeners a little bit about yourself,
[00:02:16] spk_0: Absolutely. So this part is always the most difficult, right? I I tell folks whenever I'm being introduced by a moderator and they read your bio. I usually come behind and say Y'all I do stuff right? Like, this is this is just who I am. This is how I navigate the world. And it actually goes a little bit into our topic that we're going to discuss today. It's it's who we are in different spaces is truly based on. I feel like what's needed in that space and what I know to be true as a woman. What I know to be true as a woman of African descent, right, is that, um we wear many, many hats in different spaces. So I am a friend. I am a colleague. I am an educator. I'm a bridge builder. Um, I am a sister. Anti girlfriend. So too many, Um, I'm a nonprofit professional. And so for folks who need like Okay, what are the accolades, right? I have a mentor who calls are a B CS everything that goes behind our our nays. Um, I am a non profit professional. My area of expertise has been really diving into what communities need in order to thrive based on their definition of success. And really, that's been my guiding compass and So I've done that from inside the classroom. Um, from inside of a jail sales, um, from working with nonprofits that have, you know, million dollar budgets to those that are on shoestring budgets. And, um, in regards to my actual capacity and my titles, I I have the honor of serving as executive director for the Women's Fund. A greater Chattanooga. Um, that's been my newest endeavor. And that led me here to the city where I got a chance to meet amazing women like yourself. Um, I also am a co conspirator for organization called the Women of Color Collaborative, which is absolutely my my passion project. And I also in a small business owner. I run the Burnett Group LLC, where we seek to inspire professionals, um, and deepen their impact when it comes to issues that most are are prevalent to our community and so that we can think about really stretching and growing ourselves in a way that ultimately helps our communities grow as well.
[00:04:31] spk_1: Um, and I love that and anybody that knows me that listens to this. They know that my big impact and what I love for people to continue to learn is about how environment really can impact us all together. And there's this thing called human organizational performance. I've rephrased it a human system performance because these systems that we may not know about policies and procedures, how much they impact us without us knowing. And we say we can control the controllable.
[00:04:59] spk_0: So there's some things
[00:05:00] spk_1: that we don't know, how much they control and may own us that may not be aware of. So that's the thing that I love that you do in the work in the space. So the show is called unapologetically bold. Erica. What are you no longer apologizing for?
[00:05:18] spk_0: Emily, I am not sorry for practising strategic vulnerability, and this is a concept that you know, has evolved. I can absolutely say that it's evolved for me over time, but it has its roots truly in the trenches of my early twenties, working with a nonprofit organization that center the experiences of of young people. So it was probably I'll call it my second big girl job where, you know, I had responsibilities attached to measurables and deliverables. I was in my early twenties. I quickly determined that being inside of the classroom was not where I was going to have the most impact. And so I I understand the principles of education. Um, I get how learners, right, like, won't learn and make meaning of the world around me. That's something that that that gets me excited. But I also knew that I could not have the type of impact that I wanted to have with my students by teaching them Shakespeare when they were dealing with needing to work a job in order to provide for their families. Or that there was a shooting right where a family member was injured. Um, just earlier that morning, and so I I shifted my focus and decided that in order for me to sort of marry that academic side with that very practical what does impact looked like at a community level, Um, desire for myself, that youth development work was probably going to be the best like next step and very quickly. What I recognize is that we are often well intended in the nonprofit sector, and yet we missed the mark, and it's sometimes by design, which is a whole other conversation about the non profit industrial complex. But sometimes it's by default and what we don't see that's happening again. Think about systems like you mentioned earlier is that we're actually exploiting the same populations that were seeking to, at least in theory, um, amplify what's important to them and prioritize and center not only their needs, but their identity. So the way that that started to show up for me in this field of work is that I found that we were token izing our young people, and I'm using we generously. But the reality is, um, in most organizations that I have had experience with the individuals who were at that coordinator level right who have the direct contact with a lot of the clients, usually by design Also. Then I'll have some shared lived experience, and for us it was mostly by identity, racial identity specifically. And so you have black and brown folks working with black and brown kids mhm. And then, as I like to say, the folks with shiny shoes and the offices with the glass doors, you know, that sort of, um, line the perimeter of our building typically did not look like us or the Children or young people that we serve And yet when we have a big fundraiser or an open house, right, you put at the front quite literally, door. Um, these Children who? Yes, this is the population that we're working with and that we are serving and that we're raising money for. But, you know, the girl Scouts do a wonderful job of of what we call in sort of the nonprofit, um, organizational management, a ladder of leadership. And so you're thinking about what? And that's usually a great association for folks, right? How do you climb that ladder? As a girls count, there's also levels to the depth of engagement right from a day zero brownie all the way up to that senior level. And that has to do with the way in which you are bringing that Girl Scout into the fold of their experience. And so how much autonomy do they have, right? How much leadership do they have? And ultimately, how much voices say do? Are they able to, um, insert into that process? The same is true when we're thinking about these young people or any volunteer or any client that we're working with. And for me, the sweet spot and the beauty of working with amazing women who are social workers by trade, right who have been that times by fire in this world is that then we're able to put language to it. What we recognize is that one for job security purposes. We still have to make sure that these dollars are flowing into our organization. But we also need to protect these young people. And so we started to do modules lead modules with our young people around, um, strategic storytelling.
[00:10:13] spk_1: So
[00:10:14] spk_0: how do you own your story in a way that allows you to protect your power and the integrity of some pretty traumatic events while bringing people in. Right. So there's a there's an art to this storytelling, and eventually what that morphed into me is this understanding around how to be strategically vulnerable enough that you're able to bring people into the fold of their of your understanding, which facilitates their understanding of not only self but also you and then ultimately, as an educator, what's important is that it gives them a different perspective of the landscape. Mm hmm. And so for me, that idea of strategic vulnerability was birthed out of necessity. of needing to protect my young people, Emily, right? I needed sensical safe and secure. But then it also presented an opportunity of growth and exploration for me of then how do I center my own lived experience in a way that allows me to own a certain level of power that maybe by design, has been stripped right or categorized as a deficit, but then also invites you in as an outsider in a way that ultimately moves the diet. There is a goal here, right? We're telling of the vulnerability is not just for storytelling, invulnerability, purpose. We have somewhere to go together. But I need you to be on the same train with me. And so the way that I invite you in is like handing you this golden ticket of now humanizing me in a way and making my lived experience accessible enough that you're able to see yourself as a passenger on this train.
[00:11:58] spk_1: Mm, That's so powerful. And it goes back to there's two things that really I can think of. This too, is one not token izing people is one that's huge that I've seen happen too many times just for in our um, just to make some money out of it, and I do think that's another conversation. But I think the other thing that goes with it is being strategic whenever to tell your story. And if you're asking somebody to tell her story, make sure they're ready for it because that sometimes they're not ready to be able to tell their story, and then you're going to be consoling them. And what if you just made it worse? What if you're making them relive those memories whenever they were not able to really come like to put it together? And you just put them on a stage and said, Go for it. We believe in you. What's the after effects? So I'd love for you to go a little bit more in. This is the strategy of it on, even if you're telling a story like I had a podcast, um, with Trey and she talked about some of her life that she had some of her, um, brother was murdered whenever she was in her twenties, and she talked about her story
[00:13:16] spk_0: through that.
[00:13:18] spk_1: But what it was was her goal through that whole process of telling that story was to talk
[00:13:23] spk_0: about our purpose afterwards.
[00:13:25] spk_1: It wasn't just to give you information. It's. And for her it's to impact the next generation so that they won't have to walk in that those shoes of unforgiveness and how much power. So for people that are hearing this and I feel like everybody
[00:13:39] spk_0: has a story,
[00:13:41] spk_1: how can we help them to practice strategic vulnerability with this we
[00:13:47] spk_0: So there's a couple things that come to mind. The first thing you I appreciate you naming that is in in one of the sectors are worked and we talked about the container. Do we have the proper container to hold the weight attached to this story? Two and in both parties, Right. How the one who is telling the story is this safe for you? Is this a farming for you? Right, But then also the individuals who are receiving the story. What's the aftermath, right. And do we have the right tools in place outlets that are available and resources that are available should there be a reaction? Um, I am a risk management guru, And so for me, I I say I'm gonna poke holes in every single plan I want to think about the worst case scenario. It doesn't mean that I'm still not going to do it. But I want to think about the worst case scenario so that we can be prepared and the reality is that emotional and mental risk that's involved with our own strategic vulnerability. We are human and it is truly an outpouring of what is real and what is lived in what is true for us. And we have to be prepared to be able to handle that in a way that doesn't cause more harm, right? Do no harm in this process and it has to start with self. If there is a story, I used to work as a community organizer and we talk about the the story of self a lot in order to bring people into whatever your your your campaign is or your goal is. If part of that story of self is still traumatizing, you, probably we can leave it out. Everyone doesn't need to know every bit of the details. That's the strategic part of it, right? I get to look at the entire puzzle that makes of this experience and decide I'm going to take out that peace and that peace and that peace. And it needs to be smart. That's that's the strategy behind it. Does it still create enough cohesion and understanding that people are able to connect to it right? Does it create sort of this arc of, of learning and experience in order for folks to be guided somewhere? So there has to be strategy involved. So the first thing is, we're absolutely going to make sure we have the right container, whatever that means, both for the individual sharing. But then also for the audience to that there were really intentional about what the goal is. So what is the purpose of this story? What is the purpose of me sharing? And how is it moving the conversation or our relationship right or the ultimate goal forward? Because if it's a story just for stories sake, there is no strategy there, Um, and so we want to make sure that whatever this is that it is leading us towards something, I'm big on frameworks, Emily and so one of the frameworks that I love to use, because for me, it's how we make I call it how we make meaning of the world around us. It also gives a shared language. And so I believe that our psycho socialization is pretty much the foundation of how we interact with other people and ourselves situations, any of that. And for our listeners, because I'm an educator. The psycho socialization is you're born, you're taught things. You then have experiences that reinforce or negate what you're taught, and then you go on to teach, right? And so I introduced this this psycho socialization by using a story about my girlfriend who's afraid of dogs. It's quite easy to walk through that cycle from, you know, fear. Dogs being chased by dogs. Being bitten by a dog can have a child. And now I teach the dog my childhood fear of dogs. Easy where I end is with a pretty heavy story about how my interactions with white male superior figures in the workplace was rooted and my grandfather and my father's interactions in the workplace when I was little right, and so how you can deconstruct a power dynamic that I never even knew was It was never consciously talk to me, right? It's never intentionally brought to to our family conversation, but how I absorbed it through these experiences at such a young age. That's the strategic vulnerability right there, right? It's bringing people in around, quite literally, a little black and white dog, comfortable and ending in a place where we understand how systems have been perpetuated around hierarchy and power and that specifically relates to identity dynamics. So what is the strategy there? And then the other thing is to be laser focused and again where it's positioned in relation to the larger context. So I gotta be going somewhere with this right. I'm not just telling the story to tell the story and then just sort of walking away. But it's nestled in a way that our brains are able to connect that with the larger picture.
[00:18:56] spk_1: That's so beautiful, too, because if you come out with some right off with talking about the the deeper story with your grandparents and what has been taught through to you like that's gonna shut off some people and that's that's the beauty of the strategy aspect. And it's to open up doors for open understanding and what I I
[00:19:19] spk_0: find it, and it's those conversations,
[00:19:21] spk_1: or maybe and I love
[00:19:22] spk_0: that you that you
[00:19:23] spk_1: refer to yourself as an educator because if you are a true educator like like Erica is doing, if anybody, you can see how she walks and it's not to force it down your throat, it's to open up a space for possible understanding. It's not saying Hey, you have to believe this way It's just saying Hey, I'm going to be vulnerable and be open and trusting that you will hear this out. You you will create a space for it. So for me, when did you first start practicing strategic vulnerability? Because like it doesn't That's something that it is learned like so you have to probably unlearn some things and relearn other things to get to hear.
[00:20:04] spk_0: I you know, I'm not sure if I can pinpoint the moment, but I will say that my work with young people definitely helped because they are unapologetically who they are, and they are not really respect her of persons. When it comes to you know, I will say this. It has to be earned. What I recognized is I couldn't sit with this group of young people, um, day in and day out you know, and expect for them to trust me and to be raw with me and to be open with me if they didn't feel the same thing back. My story was not their story, right? I did not grow up in public housing. My family was on government assistance. But if we're talking of the lived experiences of teenagers who are growing up in public housing, who are attending underfunded schools, that was not a part of my reality. And so, in order to connect with them, we always we and this is, you know, a word to the wise. It's not a story for story. I'm not trying to find a story to match your story. So now we can be on the same plane. Please don't do that right. But it was important for them to see and understand exactly who Miss Erica was, right? Whatever that looks like, that they truly understood that. And I was actually thinking about this. I'm glad you brought this up before our time together because it takes a lot of putting ego aside, especially as a woman, especially as an African American woman, especially as a young African American woman in my field because what I am taught that I need to do and how I should behave in order to succeed based on dominant cultural standards is the exact opposite of strategic vulnerability, right? And so I had to put on a shelf. Even that notion of Ms Erica has to have it all figured out. Miss Erica has to be buttoned up. Miss Erica has to present in a way that commands respect, because with those teenagers, they did not care. And beyond that, you are perpetuating the very thing right in the very systems that were supposedly there to help sort of uproot them out of and liberate them from. To a certain degree, it may not look the exact same, but it was absolutely an extension of that. And so for me it was getting raw. But then, also realizing, as my supervisor will remind all of us, you're still the adult in the room.
[00:22:42] spk_1: Mhm.
[00:22:42] spk_0: And so if I have to be raw in a certain to a certain degree. But I also have to be the adult in the room that is strategy and vulnerability, married hand in hand, right and its finest and So for me, that's really where it started, what's necessary in order to bring them in enough that we have a genuine relationship, that we can achieve our goals. And these are now adults, right? Actually, one of them and I love telling this story. Jordan was one of my students when I worked at this particular nonprofit in Nashville. She's now on the board for the Women of Color Collaborative and not tokenized as over the young person on our board. She's a fully functioning adult with a, you know, professional career who serves on the board of a non profit that is helping to amplify the needs and voices of other women of color. And so, in order for that relation, to ship to have thrived and now being a place where she is serving on a board for my organ, on the board, for my organization, there was something that she needed to see that was relatable 10 years ago, right?
[00:23:47] spk_1: Oh, and everything that you're saying makes you think on how strategic vulnerability is everything apart of leadership and just building. I'm thinking from the psychological safety side of it, and basically the the safety of the body I call, which is serotonin, and then you're also bringing oxytocin, which is the loving grandmother. Basically, you're creating a space for trust, love bond, along with a space of safety and security. But it's also in the aspect that as a leader,
[00:24:18] spk_0: we have to be
[00:24:19] spk_1: strategic with it. We have to like, even in essence, safety for our own Selves. Not we don't want to do it just to cover our butts. But the thing is, is that you are still in the position and I hate to say power, but you're still in a position of leadership, which is a gift, and you don't want to diminish it. So I did not know where this conversation was going, but I love it even more on how it's opened my eyes because I want to challenge the audience that is listening in on how can they apply strategic vulnerability to their life. So what are some ways that we might invite them into that space of, of starting that out on being strategic, but also vulnerable with their people that they are leading?
[00:25:08] spk_0: So one of my go to a Trojan big on frameworks? What am I go to is to think about your identity circle. If you've never done in that activity around my identity circle, it's pretty simple. You can consider what we categorize as both primary and secondary dimensions of your identity. Those primary dimensions are those things, like, often so you can check a box. You opt into this, opt out of that so race, ethnicity, um, economic status, educational attainment, right? Those are oftentimes things that you will find an application or a piece of paper are oftentimes our primary dimensions. Secondary dimensions get a little more tricky. They're oftentimes things. Unless you engage in conversation with someone you may not know about them, but ultimately what you're gonna do is sort of plot when there's a map of concentric circles, Um, or I mean, really, it can be a list for yourself of what is most present for me in regards to my identity, Um, what informs our influences, how I see and navigate the world, or how the world sees our allows me to navigate. And so one example I give here is I'm a millennial. I know what year I was born, Emily like it's not going to change. It wasn't until roughly about seven years ago or so in some of my professional work. I realized that we're blaming everything that was wrong in the workplace. On those are millennials, right? And so millennial made its way to the center of my identity circle because I recognize that it influenced how people saw me or perceived me in a space, even if it wasn't a priority for me. I use that identity circle as a launching point for understanding your own strategic vulnerability because it is your story of self we talk about with kids. They bring this sort of invisible backpack with them every day to school or the situations that they may be in. It could be hunger. It could be poverty. It could be growing up in a multi lingual household. It could be that your parents are well educated in your world travel. Whatever those experiences are. That sort of cultivate who they are, right? Think about a teacher in the classroom. He or she is there, met with that backpack every single day with that kid, right? For good, bad or indifferent as we assimilate, Um, as we sort of integrate into life as adults. We forget that we to carry those same backpacks. It may be a briefcase, right? It may be a knapsack, but whatever it is we carry with us also, what are some of those things in that backpack that we can pull out that allows for us to be a little bit more vulnerable, a little bit more human, right, and tap into something that it takes a little bit more, a deeper dive to truly understand about you but can build a point of connection. So my absolute starting point would be do some some, you know, exploration of self around your identity circle. What are some of those those stories? Um, I tell folks all the time that I didn't know that we were on public assistance. I thought everyone shops at a grocery at a warehouse with vouchers and stood under pictures of a pig or an apple or a pear or whatever it was to give your ration for the week. And it wasn't until I transition to a different school in a different state. And I'm sitting in a homemade class and we're talking about where would we go grocery shopping for our list of ingredients right that I recognize that my life experience was very different from the lived experience of my other students in that classroom. That small moment now is an opportunity for me to pull out something from my book bag for my knapsack from my briefcase to use as a point of not only remembrance in my interactions with other populations, but also as a reminder of why we create space for all experiences. And so that's for me. That is the goal of strategic vulnerability. It's how do I bring people in enough that we can find some common ground? It doesn't have to be the same but common ground enough that there's some greater understanding that occurs here. I also my second point, would be to identify sort of where you feel most disconnected for folks, and oftentimes what we look at our identity circle. It's the place where we're able to operate with power and privilege. Her societal standards right when you're a part of the dominant culture, I am able bodied. That puts me in dominant culture when it comes to ability. Because of that, I have the privilege unearned privilege to, um not necessarily remember that there are other individuals who are differently abled in certain spaces. And so I have to intentionally recall that for myself enough to be inclusive, uh, by where you are part of the dominant culture as an aspect or dimension of your identity. And maybe that's a really great place for you to start to think about what? What are ways in which you can be a little bit more vulnerable. That can help sort of shorten that bridge
[00:30:18] spk_1: a man and the one thing I love about the students. What you said earlier, too, is that your story may not be their story, either. On that, so it makes me first. My first thought is that I'm right handed in my father's left handed and like first learning like in ergonomic design, everything is made for right handed people. And then we go, I'm a I'm a white female. Your person of color, like ours is totally different lived experiences, but understanding just just to see through that perspective. And I love that it's that related this, that maybe there's a way that we can, as you say, you build the bridges like your your bridge builder for people to understand and maybe step out. And what I also love about what you're talking about two is my people here know that I no doubt about the self determination theory about Desi and Ron. And that is the one thing that you're really honing in on is complete autonomy. Relatedness com seat. Give them the information, teach them, help them grow. Give them the choice to decide. I'm not gonna force it down your throat. I'm gonna give you a choice to see if this is something and then it's got to be relatable. Finding a relatable way that we can open up in strategic vulnerability is one of those amazing ways.
[00:31:28] spk_0: So, Erica,
[00:31:29] spk_1: I love everything about this. So two part final question. That first part people are apologizing for using strategic vulnerability. What would you tell them?
[00:31:40] spk_0: Stop it. Um, I mean one. I I think as and I look, I make a living a really censoring my lived experience. I also think it's just part of of my unique design and wiring and calling in this life. So we apologize too much, right? If this is your truth, let it be your truth, Um, when we feel as if we're at that point, especially as women are those who identify as women where it's like, Oh, I'm being too. And if we're going to fill in the blank with, like, emotional or any of those words that feel Oh, my gosh, they're they're they're overused when it comes to a specific gender right or gender identity stop.
[00:32:21] spk_1: Someone
[00:32:22] spk_0: needs that someone needs an invitation to not only you, but to themselves, through you and for me. That's the important piece. Am I? Before I tell a story on a training, whether it's something that I'm being paid for or not, I go am I gonna feel better or worse after telling this story? And there's one Emily that I tell around, um, colorism, but it's still a little hurtful for me, but what I know is somebody needed to hear that story. And little Erica
[00:32:53] spk_1: was little
[00:32:53] spk_0: Erica and what she thought and how she felt about a white baby doll versus a black baby doll. There is nothing that I can do to change that, but I can live and and move forward from a place of this is affirming because someone needs to understand the power of marketing, right? I wanted to understand how this gets internalized because they never would have thought about it, especially if they live in that dominant culture. And so, my my answer is Stop apologizing and recognize that it's not only for you, but it's for someone else.
[00:33:26] spk_1: Amen. I'm a meeting that one like tenfold. I love everything about that Erica, and I guess the second part of that is people love hearing what you're saying, and they want to learn more about what you do or just how they can connect with you. How can they do that?
[00:33:41] spk_0: Absolutely. So I mean, a couple of places, depending on what happened you want me to wear? Um, As I said, the Women's Fund of Greater Chattanooga is a wonderful organization to connect to. If you want to think about impact, especially on a systems level, um, right across the state of Tennessee. And so we are at China Good Women's fund dot org. Um, you can also find us on on all the social media platforms by the same name, um, my work with the Women of Color Collaborative as a co conspirator is a space where we intentionally curate opportunities for women of color to connect, um, and amplify their voices through centering their lived experience. Everything you talk about from a theory perspective, Emily. That is where that lives in that world where we want to identify. How do we take that theory but really central identity as a part of it? Because it looks different for everyone, especially around race and ethnicity. We think about power dynamics, and so we love not only to connect with women of color, but we know we need allies in this work. And so we are at work, play build on all the things. So it's work. Playbill dot org work, play build on all social media platforms. And then, if you're interested in sort of tapping into some of this, um, little goodness around learning and organizational psychology and leadership through the Burnett Group, you can find me at Burnett Group T N. As in Tennessee, um, on all the platforms, and that's B u R N a t T. Um group TN.
[00:35:10] spk_1: Thank you so much, Erica for your time and thank you just for your authenticity. Your your openness and and being strategic vulnerably during this time or vulnerability, strategic during this time and just an amazing conversation. I thank you. And I'm so grateful for you and for all that have listened in have an amazing and blessed day. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for this test shoot anyway, please, like and subscribe and share with your friends as we continue the message of being unapologetically bold by being hot. Humans who are humble, open and transparent. See you next time.