The Learning Teams: Episode 1
Safety Consultant with Sheldon Primus
The Learning Teams: Episode 1
September 21, 2020
In this week, Sheldon talks with authors of the new book "The Practice of Learning Teams: Learning and improving safety, quality and operational excellence.", with foreword by Dr Todd Conklin released August 2020 (ISBN: 9798665374321, Sutton, McCarthy and Robinson: Pre-Accident Investigation Media). In the book Dr Todd Conklin states: "The Practice of Learning Teams will become a powerful resource in changing the way organizations learn and improve their operations. This book is easy to read and full of great concepts that can be used as soon as you read them. I love a book where you read an idea in the morning and try the same idea that very afternoon." From the Author Brent Sutton A Learning Team is notable because it encourages organizations to obtain and consider different perspectives and angles of functional diversity to define a problem in a group context. The different perspectives that emerge from a Learning Team group demonstrate that no one person holds all the knowledge needed to solve complex problems. Glynis McCarthy The purpose and principles of Learning Teams resonate with my Adult Learning beliefs. In Learning Teams, I see an inherent opportunity for enhanced worker learning. I also see the opportunity to support a positive learning culture. Learning Teams provide a dual opportunity for both workers and the organization to learn from everyday work. Brent Robinson Learning Teams as a way to facilitate and capture knowledge from the people doing the work are a perfect match for Lean. Lean can provide tools to capture and disseminate knowledge across the organization and by applying the PDCA cycle the learning culture will become embedded across the organization.
Keywords: Brent Sutton, The Learning Teams, Todd Conklin, Safety FM, OSHA Compliance, EHS, Safety and Health, Corporate Culture, Accident, Incident, Incident Investigation, 5 Why's, Human and Organization Performance, HOP, Jay Allen, CSP, UK, Australia, New Zealand, NEBOSH, Organizational Culture, Culture, Health and Safety, Brent Robinson,  Glynis McCarthy 

[00:00:00] spk_0: This is Sheldon Primus, the host of the safety consultant podcasts. During this time, we've all been tightening our belts because of Cove in 19. I have been as well. Recently I found a cost effective alternative to some of the services and programs that I was using, such as email marketing, mhm hosting services and even one of my favorites. Teachable Visit is for special offers to help you on your business overhead. If you're hosting a podcast or one of host a podcast, then visit Sheldon Prime is dot com backslash hosting for a knockout deal Don't give up on your dream. Get smarter on the back end of your business. This'll episode is powered by Safety FM Welcome to the safety consultant podcast. I'm your host, Sheldon. Promise. This is a show where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. And this week we're gonna have special guests on I say, guess with an s because there's three of them Broncs hunting Glennis McCarthy and Brent Robinson. They did a book together in their book. Is one of those like, really cool things that you could pick up in Amazon and learn a little bit about the practice of learning teams and their books even had a forward written by Dr Todd Count Land. So the subtitle for that one is learning and improving safety, quality and operational excellence. So we actually I'm gonna break this up into two episodes. And the reason why is because we went through a bunch s o. I really was happy to talk to all three of them together at once and truly, we, uh they were helping me to understand learning teams and how to do it. And my first idea and concept of it was thinking how toe put it into the safety and health realm and more and more as I was listening to the conversation and we're talking about I'm like, Hold on, this thing is gonna go way past safety and health. You're probably going to see this and all aspects of the organization. You could do this and different sectors and eyes really trying toe thio, comprehend everything they're telling me. So in the first part it's really giving you guys a little bit of the baseline, if you will, of what learning teams are on some of the applications, and I was thinking more competencies, and that's where we started. And then just a conversation started evolving so much show that I had to break it into two groups. So this is gonna be, uh, episode one of the learning team. And then we're gonna do Episode two of the Learning Team on a special day this week. We're going to do it on Thursday. This week. You guys gonna have an opportunity to hear Episode two? So do stay tuned so you could hear both episodes. Eso you could get the Learning team all in one week, and that's gonna be something really great. So way are going Thio, listen to them. And just a few seconds, because I am not going to do our sponsor right now. We're gonna go straight into learning teams this time, all right? So just strap in and there will not be a tip of the week for either of these episodes. It's just gonna be, uh, me, the learning team. And then I'll come back with the following episode, and then it's gonna be me with the intro and the Learning team, So strap in

[00:03:58] spk_2: it Hello. My name is Glynn. It's McCarthy. I'm an adult education. I've been working in health and safety for about seven years. Now. I'm particularly interested in worker engagement. And what sort of practices that facilitate worker learning and worker consultation and worker development, and particularly around. How do you get your workers to be really empowered when it comes toe the knowledge and understanding of risk. How do they do so practice?

[00:04:33] spk_0: Excellent. Excellent glints. Uh, it was about to say, Glenn, this is about E Gotta get the brands rate. Branson. Yeah.

[00:04:43] spk_1: I'll bring Mark to eso High wouldn't. So listeners on Bring Sutton and I'm a risk practitioner. And I've been working in the field of health and safety for about 18 years now. And and I specialize in an area called Human Misery uh, which is basically around which workplace fatalities and major harm on. And I've been using living teams as part of my process to create a restorative environment when things go wrong in the workplace.

[00:05:13] spk_0: Excellent. Excellent. Prince Robson, I

[00:05:17] spk_3: I'm Brian Robinson. I am I I would call myself a continuous improvement advocate so or operational excellence advocate. So I came Thio learning teams about five years ago where we have a, uh, Major Nelson, one of the operations in New Zealand and the business. I pulled the prints and we have seen using that as a basis for improvement across a range of different opportunities and business both safety and and the operation over the last five years. So that's how I came toe.

[00:05:53] spk_0: Excellent. And for those that are listening that don't know they're not from the U. S. It seems like we have Australia and New Zealand represented here. Excellent,

[00:06:06] spk_3: actually. Were actually old kiwis of some sites. Oh,

[00:06:09] spk_0: really? Yeah, my brother. I remember my family had exchange students well on the way. We had a German exchange students French exchange student, and we did have Andrew from New Zealand and he effectively was called Kiwi. So I don't even know his last name to this day. E Yeah. Glennis. Are you Irish or in any way? It seems like a name like that May. To me, it seems like it's it's almost like, uh, like from Europe, as opposed to Australia. Or is that really or so state? New Zealand, since you said you're you're originally from that area Dio Is that a popular name there?

[00:07:00] spk_2: Eso My parents are Welsh, so I'm really lucky that I'm goodness man, I grew up. Thomas is my major name. That very nice last name. It could have been a lot worse. There's some Welsh female names that perhaps wouldn't have been quite a good I've got were quite a multicultural family. My husband is originally from America from England. They lived in Australia so swears like a trooper e My old was born in Australia and my youngest daughter was born in Germany. When we travel, we go out in a myriad of passports.

[00:07:31] spk_0: No kidding. I would imagine that that might be a nightmare with all the different passports represented there. Well,

[00:07:38] spk_2: thankfully with your New Zealander, it's really good You could give New Zealand passport and we're pretty much for the most part welcome in most countries So although we all do have different nationalities, we could all go out on the same passport.

[00:07:48] spk_0: Yeah, Excellent. Not bad. Just the reason why I was thinking that is. My wife also has a friend in New Zealand and Glennis. But she was from I believe Ireland and then her family immigrated over there. So that's what it got me thinking about it. Um, not bad.

[00:08:07] spk_2: How many Glynis is around called all sorts of things. Um but it's like they could have been some other Welsh names that my parents could have chosen. Um, some of them are quite hard to pronounce. Some of them are horrific. Lee hard to spell eso I didn't do so badly.

[00:08:23] spk_0: Excellent. Well, from listening to the J. Allen show with you guys, I know that you've been friends for a while. Eso if you wouldn't mind someone represent the team and tell us a little bit of how you guys met

[00:08:37] spk_3: friends and I met it e high school. That's how long help our it goes back. E think we're on the different sides of the playground back then when we

[00:08:46] spk_0: were in? Yeah,

[00:08:47] spk_1: very much. I mean, it's such a long time ago shelling that everything was black and white back then, but in terms off, Yeah, I threw away the memories. I have a very, very old

[00:08:59] spk_0: man, I would imagine, especially from high school to now. I'm like I was classes 70 excuse me. I was born in 71 but the class of 89. So we're right at that. 30 something years of being being, like, you know, a graduating class. So things have changed quite a bit since then, so I'm not too sure what your classes there, but I would imagine it probably runs the same. Right.

[00:09:27] spk_1: Okay, so let me rot. Exactly, Rods. And then glutinous and I met, uh, 78 years ago. That's in eight years ago. And basically with corrupted Glennis and come across to the scythe corrupt.

[00:09:49] spk_0: And I like your your choice of words there.

[00:09:51] spk_1: Yeah, he's a little bit corrupting. Doesn't. Yes. Corrupting

[00:09:56] spk_0: and selling and marketing, right? It's just about everything we do is you know, where we kinda sell and sell and then sell some more s. That's a that's part of it, right?

[00:10:07] spk_1: It was really interesting from my point of view, because I had just I just sold my business is part of ah multinational buyout on, and I was looking to try, and it's a little bit different from a safety point of view. And I met with an organization that specialized and forced watched in numeracy, and this whole notion off the effect off luxury numeracy in the workplace and how to fix safety is on really quite pivotal for us going forward because people talk about competency. They talk about training. There were lots of barriers that workers face on Health and safety is so critic ated on our systems and documentation.

[00:10:57] spk_0: Yeah, and when you say competencies, are you thinking more of the competencies that came out of the Singapore cord? Or you thinking more of competencies in another? In another realm,

[00:11:11] spk_2: really, about the competencies that somebody needs to be able to do a job safely and proficiently. What is the knowledge and the skills behaviors that attitudes, attitudes that someone needs to have to be able to do that job safely? And then how does the system that they work in support either good practice or how does it detract from good practice, huh? I very much agree with your comment before that so much of health and safety is around marketing on. If marketing has got to be successful, we need to think of our audience way. Need to think who are we pitching this information for? The sales pitch for a lot of what Brent and I did when we worked previously together, was thinking about How do you do that to a diverse workforce, a workforce that may have language barriers or literacy barriers? Eso a lot of the practice that I do is around. How do you communicate often complex ideas to diverse workforces?

[00:12:06] spk_0: Excellent. Excellent. E

[00:12:09] spk_1: thought about intelligence. It's about the ability of the worker to sort of comprehend and understand what's being asked often. E

[00:12:17] spk_0: yeah, Robinson, Did you have

[00:12:18] spk_3: some Sur e think where our senior they're gonna take into account that we're dealing with workers from a lot of different backgrounds, you know? So he would. In the business is I'm involved, and there's a cultural diversity as well that we need to take into account when we're working with them. And typically they hold the answers right. Those are the people that are doing the work every day that they hold the answers to what we're trying to trying to get what you know from the individual's point of view that we're trying to understand, but also from an organization's understanding of the work was going on. E think on. They hold the competence in a lot of respect.

[00:13:02] spk_0: Yeah, and the reason why it was bringing up competency in the realm of the Singapore A accord which some of you may have a um I did a if something you may not, but it's really exactly what they're saying. What would it take for you to be a safety and health officer? What are some of the things that you need to learn? And right now you're looking at there's so many different trends and safety and health. And if you don't have the right person that knows these things, you're setting them up, you know, for for quite a quite a failure. And that's my that's my humble opinion is therefore you gotta match the person's competency with the position. And then now you've got Micro and a macro version of this is well for the whole organization to be functional. And if that what starts the learning team idea behind that? Or is it something else that got you guys sparked on the learning teams?

[00:14:00] spk_1: Uh, look, I I think I found sticky, and it all started on we start talk to briefly about with Jay, but it all started because I had I was asked to come along. Toc This American guy talked about this pontifical blending things on, and I question I asked, I have to pay money for this And I said, Oh, no, I've got a free ticket here to come along E said, Well, look, I've got nothing better to do. So what? Let's go along and here the sky and comes out on stage on his opening line has never, never makes Alexis has been a sleeping pull together on, and I'm thinking this'd is going to be a really, really good conversation

[00:14:43] spk_0: things.

[00:14:44] spk_1: This guy is basically off a whole different tangent, and through has discussion that he had ah lot of what Todd said. This resonated with me quite deeply from the from the point of view that workers hold the knowledge. Uh, you know, we've got people you know, you've been with problem solving that so focused on fixing things at the moment that we forget that actually understanding the problem will lead to the fax. Radames will be moving to the facts itself. All these things he talked about were really powerful, but he spoke about that within the context off hot off coupon operational performance and Learning Team was sort of talked about off to the side. But I really wanted Thio get much more stuck into what learning teams meant because, like everything else shouting, a lot of organizations are always chasing the new shiny toy way. Have this conversation about things like safety to safety differently. Hot, um, human factors. BBs, aled these new things. But the thing that attracted us toe learning teams is that learning teams is about worker engagement on learning teams is about what can the organization learn? How can I learn from opportunities Way. More importantly, how come workers learn from those opportunities? Because if we don't look for opportunities, how can we learn and improve way saw Learning teams has been commit probably agnostic to the system. That doesn't matter what system of organization works on it doesn't matter. What those beliefs are learning is a fundamental tenant. How organizations develop. Yeah,

[00:16:41] spk_0: absolutely. And for I'm an instructor at heart, and so truly when I get a hold of students and I teach two classes, one is a management class for safety professionals, and then the other one is, ah, class, where I'm teaching boots on the ground safety. So people that actually have to go out there and do the job safety analysis and all those Chinese whistle things that you just talked about They're the ones that actually have to do that work from day to day s O Those are the two classes that I really teach with. So when I think of ah Learning Team and I think of the application as you're saying, uh, truly that's when you have to think safety is part of the heart of an operation of organization. And if it's not, and if you don't think of it as a organizational culture as opposed to a separate safety culture, uh, then you might end up getting yourself up dog wagging the tail or tail wagging the dog, I should say in that scenario where you're constantly trying toe catch up to something that's happened. So from what I'm hearing, you're saying a learning team could help you stop that frenetic, roundabout roundabout and you go and you completely dissect and analyze and get to the heart of an issue and you do it

[00:18:01] spk_1: on the line level. Is that how I'm doing this? Yes, we do it both at the line level, but we also do it other levels within the organization as well. Because e think this this there's two parts of it Theo organization learns are looking for change. You call that an investigation? Whether you call that a review with you, call that an observation? All those things are looking for change in what the organization is seeing. Is this seeing a macro chest pain? That makes it? Yeah, because they're looking the difference between something from before and something now. And they're seeing the difference between those two components. Yeah, but that's not how workers learning proof. Yeah, that's true. And workers are learning every day. I certainly how they interface on the system they have to live in and the hazards they're exposed. Thio. Is that learning intentional, or is it a byproduct off being president? And what a learning team does, it turns learning into a deliberate action. What a moment my saluted and it happens, is incidental. Uh, happens as a result off something on what workers can dio bythe learning intentional. Then those changes or adaptions or variations that they're encourage every day, which is what they're embedding into themselves. Uh, there's a learning team. What can happen is the organization can now start together some business intelligence from that information So they can then do you things that a macro way by looking at what's happening at that micro type way. All know that when we investigate, that comes as no surprise for about that work has imagined, held a position prescribed work and focused on was the front. Yeah, because that's what the discussion basically does. U s

[00:20:17] spk_0: Oh, I'm hearing a few things. Sorry. Did I step over you there? E. All right. So from what I'm hearing, there it seems like, especially if you're you're thinking of how how the interaction is with when there's an issue. When there's something that happened in the organization, it's always some sort of reactive action. So therefore, you guys were teaching people Stop doing that, don't you? So reactive, Let's do this thing purposefully. And therefore we might even be able to have, uh, for me, What I'm thinking is you'll have even the benefit of being proactive so that now you could not have pressure on you to perform to come up with a solution to come up with an answer. And if you're doing this more proactively, then in turn it's actually going to lead the system by repeating things that are currently working well and then predicting if you see a failure coming, is that how we're looking at this?

[00:21:24] spk_3: E think those those things they're aligning. One of things I wanted to say just a little earlier on is that you know, you're talking about the safety professional. What? How they were having to adapt and change. Teoh, you know the environments in different locations and in different industries and really is about one of the tools they're gonna put their talking is to be a facilitator. This is about facilitation, you know so often will come across different people in safety. And I'll either be like Are Inspector where they're telling you're doing it wrong. Well, they could be like the facilitated to understand what what the work is doing, point of why they might be making that decision and really helping getting a group of people together to say Well, you know, this is a Zubrin said this is what the the organization thought you were going to dio workers imagine. And here's what we're finding you're doing. Tell us why doing that. It's not a It's not a accusation. That's not That's a really about trying to tease out what those differences are between those two points. So I think, you know, I've come from a world of where Lien has been equipment for many organizations. You know, you see exactly the same sort of thing. But, you know, you keep going to the people doing the work, and you build that culture where they will spend some time with you to explain to you you're not coming out their toe check. How you doing it right? You're going out there to understand more about way. Use that knowledge and that experience that grow across the organization

[00:22:57] spk_0: way. Glynis. Did you have something that you want to add?

[00:23:01] spk_2: E. Just going to say, a zoo instructor at heart myself, like yourself. I think the most valuable time that you get learning that really takes place is where you can co construct on. That's when a person who is leading that instruction, that training that's taking place or they're learning that's taking place on really a tense If pate with those people that are that are present, the light bulbs go off. And I think that's really what learning teams provides an opportunity for. So I think that what you get is true opportunity, off learning and reflection of practice. I think that that's incredibly valuable. Both foot the worker because they get to look and see what's aiding and practice, what's detracting from from good practice, but also from the organizational point of view. So they really get to see and kind of really time what's working. So one of the things that they think that they are doing to support for practice and one of those one of those things that are working as they intended, of those things that perhaps have untended constant, that sits really nicely in that framework where workers a part of the solution bond. For me, it is about true facilitation off learning so that you are co constructing what it is that you're trying to understand.

[00:24:20] spk_0: Wow, that's that's really a powerful thought process behind it, because to me, when I'm thinking in order to make that work would be a great deal of trust, a great deal of humility for all levels of the organization, uh, listening skills as well. And then also just truly some sort of system in place that will allow everyone to feel empowered to let this thing grow. And that's that's challenging. In some organizations, they they have turf wars, if you will, as opposed Thio. We're in this together. So it seems like from I'm hearing your you guys. If if there's certain industries that benefit from this or not, maybe it's those industries to me. E think everyone can outside of safety. From what I'm hearing this, this seems to me that it's gonna transcend safety and health on beam or organizational. But it seems like you guys really must must teach the trust component and and, uh, and all the other things that that is underlining to exactly what you're saying over there. Am I correct in thinking that, or is it a my breaking it down to two difficultly? Is it more simple than then? I'm thinking,

[00:25:39] spk_1: Look, I think the thing about trust is trust or something that doesn't just happen. So the thing about learning teams is that the people that participated are valued because the differences, their diversity a diversity of thought and their diversity. A function is valued within the learning thing itself. On if someone feels valued, then that leads to respect you. Build respect, respect builds to trust way eso for us, a learning team. The objective is not to gain trust because trust happens as a result off the participation off individuals. Way a facilitated of the these two provide an environment so that those people are able to participate and and that voice can be heard. There's a little voice or a big voice. Doesn't matter. Uh, if they feel that they're able to justify it in some way, that they're seen as the expert on the work that they dio that changes the whole dynamic. What has

[00:26:51] spk_0: been some of the drivers that lead people to wanting to experience a learning

[00:26:56] spk_3: keen e think it's looking for a different outcome? You know, one of the experiences that we've had recently is we had a machine bar, and the initial investigation we came out was that the worker had just done what they're going to have done. It wouldn't have happened when we dug down a bit deeper because of that system, seemed right When we dug down a bit deeper, there was many factors, you know, live all the way back to the maintenance wasn't being done on the equipment. So oil was being sprayed in the places that never been sprayed before and that came down to a management decision to drop back on preventative maintenance. Oh, no. You know, which was about reducing s DNA or any of those things that you have to do a business on. But it was really teasing that out over a period of time. A very, very culturally diverse workforce, you know, on DSO if it took some time to do it and it was really important that we we went through the process and then gave them sometimes way call it soak time. But to reflect on what we discovered was not about blaming anybody was just about getting a better outcome for everybody on, You know, there are other people see that that becomes a really powerful trying to get home. Whether it's so much better than the five ways we did that, we only got down to three ways instead of

[00:28:28] spk_0: five. Yeah, it's so funny because when people start thinking about instant investigations. And they say, the five wise I'm like, Do you know that each time you find an answer to that, you know, branch itself out to another five or bore and then those answers and each will branch out tomorrow. They think it's just five. Wives were like, No, there's more than that. I

[00:28:51] spk_3: get a little truffle because way use five wives and several businesses will be involved in that. I think it's a a nice, quick, simple way of doing it, but it doesn't give you the full context of everything that's coming up because you end up taking everybody down a path of the original I and you could lose a lot of other really valuable learning on the sides of that.

[00:29:14] spk_2: It's often because we use them a kind of e think we used it a little bit too early on in the process. I think they work well as a validation tool, but often we're using. There's a kind of a problem identification tool, and that's why, as you've said Sheldon, that kind of takes you often to all of these tensions. Andi, each one you sort of start to kind of get into a car from other words, going back to your question. Sheldon, I think that learning teams is really gaining some traction because for a lot of organizations, they're just finding that their current methodologies are just not giving them enough. On dso they again and I take France example. They lead to a person that potentially they're going to blame that this person has not followed the rule. But there's so many more things that might sit in behind. Why was that really not being adhered to? And I think what learning teams does is it gives people an opportunity to reflect on practice. Eso it gives people the opportunity to see what was working, what wasn't what were the things that they could grab hold off. What were the things that sort of was slipping away from them in the moment that that incident was occurring and looking to see one of those contributing factors on git gives a much sort of more rich, detailed picture off what was really good going on. And so I think that the organizations here in New Zealand and Australia and by the looks that in America that many organizations are looking to find something that gives much more yours.

[00:30:41] spk_0: Yeah, there's that's, Ah, excellent point because it makes me start thinking of a few things that that will lead down the path where you know, there's some some organizations that they're really just looking for. The pilot error syndrome, you know, do did this, you're out of here. But then surely there's other where your your doing something such as the James Reasons Swiss Cheese model. Or you might do a fish bone or something similar to that, but just culture part Or maybe even, uh, the part where you have a diminishing culpability model, which I believe is also James Reason. But but the diminishing capability model of means you had an infraction, but you're not going to have a consequence that is going to be like someone else who had sabotage. They meant to do this. Someone else may have just had we found out through our exhaustive practice that we didn't train you well and it's not you, it's me. And in those cases, if there is a culpability that needs to be done, that personal get less culpable. If it's punitive, hopefully not, but it might be something that's gonna hold them accountable. Like retraining or something similar to that Is the outcome of a learning team in any way combined? Thio be anything that will have some sort of diminishing culpability model or something similar to that?

[00:32:12] spk_1: Uh, well, the short answer is that e think the difference here is e uh huh way talk about three modes of learning teams. So there are learning teams that you conduct as part of a post event process. There are learning teams that you conduct as part of management of change, and there are learning teams that you conduct as part of everyday work. So So when we think about learning teams in response to post event, we're learning team becomes very powerful is that it's based around a restorative process, a retributive process. Eso the focus here is not how did the person participate in the system? How did the system support a good outcome for the workers on e way? Don't shy away and we talked about in the book is not a problem around accountability and responsibility. But the difference here is with the learning team. Accountability is by the people who were a part of the event. Participate on the problem. Identification. Okay, The responsibility part is the people that participated in the event. So then be part of the solution on how to learn and improve It's corrective actions, which is a typical outcome. Often investigation e don't know. I don't know what you think, but I've never had a working Suitably, I really enjoyed that corrective action. Okay, In the learning team, they say I really Look, I really enjoyed what happened. I learned so much from that learning team s. So what we talk about is that where do these accuse for learnings actually exists? And when you investigate the opportunity for learning, there's only from an organization's perspective. E seldom give us tea on an opportunity for worker to learn proper investigation. That challenge. You're going to enjoy this investigation. You're gonna feel valued. You're gonna feel warm. You gonna come out with the king of rejoicing in becoming an Africa for safety? Yea, Okay. Just to make sure we'll send you arm or training because obviously the training didn't work the last time and training said they has become a punishment tall. Yeah, which is not its intention eso What a learning team does is a learning team. Get's an organization to understand. Where do those options for learning come from? Way Engage in those opportunities, whether it be for five minutes or 90 minutes, it doesn't really matter how long way have to ask ourselves, what can workers learn from us And what can the organization learned way put just culture aside? How about a learning culture? Yeah, there's a there's an improvement based on learning and reflection is about the concept off continuous improvement. Yeah, yeah, they were saying, you know, it doesn't really matter what culture you want to pair or what culture you're coming from. What systems you've applied learning is learning.

[00:35:49] spk_0: Yeah, and that's great, because truly, um, at that time period, then what you've created is a leading indicator versus a lagging indicator. And now, if you want to even do a reward system on the leading indicator for the health of the organization, the health of safety or health of even process and management as a learning team can actually be a leading indicator. So you're you're proactive in that way, and that that seems like something that could even you could even reward if will get behind that system. Is that Is that taking it too far? Rewarding participation?

[00:36:27] spk_1: E well, that comes back to what does a working how What is the worker get from participating? Do you think when it's the losing team?

[00:36:38] spk_2: E. I haven't thought about it in terms of a kind of approach. Um, protests, um, talking thio workers who have participated in learning teams across the sort of everyday thio management to change to sort of post incident. What I've what I've found is that workers say that it was an opportunity to hear how they do things, but through different lenses through different perspectives. So they're gained an enormous amount of insight and how, how their jobs that works upstream and downstream. But often they they're not 100% sure off. They get a much more sort of robust understanding off how their role fits into a bigger scheme of work. Eso I found that some of those intrinsic rewards are probably in an off themselves, will value that an extra in extrinsic and reward e

[00:37:33] spk_3: think it's being value is a member of the team and improving the system that they worked with. That's the outcome that I've seen and that we're gonna talk about when we're talking to people about this process. We talked about that. The system has failed. It's a failure of the system. All of the people, you know, we haven't built enough capability into the system for when there is a failure, that it doesn't stop the system or people get it and, you know, working both manufacturing and construction. And we do a lot of, um, documentation about how we think something could go wrong. But one of the you know, one of the many issues you're still in that particular industry is that we're not reviewing it all the time. But we're not getting that that feedback. And that's where we can use in everyday Learning Team to help improve that system that we're developing that system of work. When I was putting a facade on a building or it's something the doors and windows in the building, it doesn't matter on. That's where I see the lean and mean operational excellence sense safety converging because you're making the system safer, but you're also improving performance off the system is a whole, you know want to engage people. I think they feel very much valued that they're in. Quote is actually taken into it. It's not some engineer sitting 1000 kilometers away. They said, This is the way you should do it. E think that zero I'm saying with how people value it.

[00:38:59] spk_0: Yeah. Excellent. E guess my mind also goes into, like, BF skinner mode. And I think of operate conditioning. Oh, this That's just, you know, a little bit of my my my safety management brains, you know, just kind of going against the green there with with the learning team and being because truly, I would imagine you would properly have Thio sit each level of organization down, talk to them about the expectations of a learning team and then start, you know, maybe reverse programming what we already start thinking of. And I don't know if that's by different cultures or if that's just a safety as a whole, because I know American culture versus European culture versus African versus Latin American. You probably have different organizational, uh, just the way that the organization works and operates and function it together. So can people in the learning team environment is this good across all different uhh styles, if

[00:40:06] spk_1: you will. Yeah, I'm an example. Auckland, we have 89 different cultures in our workforce. It all on 89 different cultures less. And I were at a client last night observing their their their night shift, and there are producing bagels, and they probably would have bean six or eight different cultures. Just present where English was a 2nd, 3rd or fourth language amongst this this group. Well, the thing about a learning team is that you don't have to create much expectation upfront way. Certainly say that we're gonna conducting a learning team to understand what makes us sixties for in what way, huh? Getting together. Understand? What does it look like? Way wanted to hear and people are coming along and they're sharing their stories with us. That's all they're doing is dialogue. It's interesting form of dialogue sharing stories. What? What you might say is we have a camp fire without burning the building down e. Okay. Yeah, they would frown on that in safety. Yeah, you can. You can have the marshmallows. No sharp sticks. So

[00:41:33] spk_0: far, it's Moore's. You've gotta have at least some s'mores, right?

[00:41:38] spk_1: Better do. That s so what's interesting is that what we have found depending on the type off organization that you're involved? Us. Ah, lot of people try to understand what is the process that's being followed because what we're doing is something that's so differently what's been done before saying, Well, no, there's gotta be something behind it because if they should affect is not it's just about leaving I dialogue or not getting content. What, actually head back with the issue here up, Jordan, is that a learning team is very much centered around the capability off the facilitator and way you mentioned the Singapore record. I mean for us competency, Azzan, everyday activity. Um, both going aside, very lucky. We also teach I teach the climber and safety and his island as well. Um, and what's interesting is that most off the competitive frameworks for health and safety practitioners have been evolved around technical subject matter. And ah, lot of those things like soft skills. Uh, a learning team is all about sauce school because health and safety people, we are driven by being an expert in the area. And we had driven as being a silver off a problem, whereas a learning team good job is to be a facilitator. Thio, get collaboration to in car communication, not there as an expert. So what we've typically find is that there's a whole raft off soft skills on bet that need to exist to be good things powders could build by schools. You talked about list things? A really good example. Uh huh. Um, the thing about a learning team is that the facilitator leads to be listening to the group to make sure getting us flow going.

[00:43:57] spk_0: It sounds like it's really a judge. Information being received on that opens it up. I guess so. When If there's a competent facilitator, it's almost like a pitch and catch scenario where the person in the learning team or even the persons as they're going through this, uh, they might get stuck. And then the facilitator could help kick start another Obama thought, Or the facilitator might be able thio get behind what's truly being said if the group's going around and around in circle, is that my understanding of what you're saying there? As far as, ah, good facilitator for Learning Team this'll episode has been powered by safety FM