Entrust Equipping Leaders
How do we determine who needs ministry training and how do we best train them?
September 16, 2022
Dr. Scott Klingsmith: how do we determine who to train and what methods are best for each person and situation?
Guest Dr. Scott Klingsmith. What do you do when a person desiring ministry training may not be the real leader the church desires or needs? How might we know what methods will best serve those whom we train in Christian ministry? This is the third and final segment of our conversation with Dr. Scott Klingsmith, formerly at Denver Seminary, now a cross-cultural ministry trainer with WorldVenture.


Dr. Klingsmith's Entrust Equipping Christian Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/formal-and-nonformal-christian-education-definitions-advantages-and-challenges

World Evangelical Alliance Mission Commission https://www.weamc.global

"Establishing Ministry Training: A Manual for Program Developers" by Dr. Robert Ferris, available for free download on the WEA website (above)

WorldVenture (Dr. Klingsmith's bio) https://worldventure.com/pworker/4000-367-klingsmith-scott/


| Speaker Name | Start Time | Transcript | Intro/Outro (Todd) | 00;00;02;17 | Welcome to Equipping Christian Leaders. A podcast resource from Entrust. Entrust’s calling is to multiply leaders for multiplying churches. Find us at www.entrust4.org
| Laurie | 00;00;15;14 | We are back with the third and final installment of my conversation with Dr. Scott Klingsmith, former assistant professor of intercultural studies at Denver Seminary and now serving with WorldVenture. Dr. Klingsmith told us last time about some of his students who have gone on to serve the Lord in various capacities. I asked him to tell us more about just one of those students.
| Laurie | 00;00;39;27 | Now you know, you did mention the gentleman in Southeast Asia, and he's developing a training program. Do you suppose is he incorporating elements of formal and non-formal learning in this program he's developing?
| Scott | 00;00;53;04 | Yeah, he definitely is. These are these are he's working with pastors who are in pastoral ministry, but who have really not had access to any kind of training. And so finding ways to add to equip them in their own contexts, finding materials that are appropriate both for their education level as well. As for their cultural context and trying to integrate those things as much as possible.
| Scott | 00;01;28;01 | Yeah. Fun to watch.
| Laurie | 00;01;29;22 | And it's interesting, isn't it, that in, in much of the world, the way a person becomes a pastor is almost opposite of how it happens in the West. People become a believer, and suddenly they're a pastor and they haven't yet gone to the many years of theological training like we often experience in the West before we step into that pastoral role.
| Laurie | 00;01;53;04 | So this is kind of finding people already serving and then coming alongside and making sure they understand or that they're growing and how to do that well.
| Scott | 00;02;04;03 | Yeah. Yeah. Because oftentimes those are people who in their own social settings, perhaps are already leaders. They're people who have networks there. They're engaged in pastoral ministry but really have never had access to discipline materials or other kinds of theological training. And so they're the natural target, in a sense, for theological education because they're the ones that are actually doing it.
| Scott | 00;02;44;26 | Oftentimes, and I'll say this is again, sometimes the disadvantage of schools is that those that come to school are the ones who are able to uproot and go someplace and have three or four years of their life dedicated to study, but who don't have a particular standing in the church. And so they may come out with a degree of some kind, but they don't there's not really a place for them.
| Scott | 00;03;20;11 | You know, that that the churches want to be led or are led by more mature elders who may actually feel threatened by young people who have this training sometimes that the young people given them giving them the benefit of the doubt with good intentions can cause problems because they end up correcting their elders and showing them all the ways that they're studying the Bible wrong or they're preaching wrong or their theology is deficient or whatever the case may be.
| Scott | 00;03;59;11 | And and so they come out with with good academic training, but end up doing quite a bit of damage in the church.
| Laurie | 00;04;08;02 | Hmm.
| Scott | 00;04;08;18 | So so it's always the question, who is the most appropriate person to be trained both in the in the moment, but also for the future?
| Laurie | 00;04;19;26 | Mm hmm. Yes. That does raise a whole lot of questions. And a question that if you are doing that training to determine who are we going to train here, and then who do we turn away, or do you ever have to make that decision like, I'm sorry, Mr. So-and-so, we don't feel you're the right candidate for this training.
| Scott | 00;04;43;09 | Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting question, because in many ways, that's really a decision that the church needs to make. Rather than whatever institution it is. Yeah.
| Scott | 00;04;56;28 | That I mean, schools, often the people that come are self-selected. And so it may be people that that the church has sent has seen the value and the potential for. And they say, yeah, we want you to get more training, and then we want you to come back and use that in our context. But oftentimes it's people that, you know, feel some kind of a calling themselves that may or may not be integral to a church.
| Scott | 00;05;31;04 | Mm hmm. So so the more that a church is engaged in that process, I think the better off it's going to be.
| Laurie | 00;05;40;02 | Yeah. So, you know, we're we're getting closer to our end of our time here. I think I have about two more questions for you. Maybe, you know, if someone is is is training leaders right now or would like to be involved in training leaders for the local church. Any resources that you would recommend? How do you become involved in equipping leaders for churches, whether wherever that may be?
| Laurie | 00;06;08;13 | What are some other way or ways to learn how to do that?
| Scott | 00;06;11;10 | Yeah, I mean, there's resources at so many different levels. So, you know, at one level, just the variety of textbooks in theology and biblical studies and any kind of discipline of Christian ministry obviously here we're we're overloaded. I get academic catalogs all the time. And and just the number of courses in my own books and my own discipline is way more than I can even keep up with.
| Scott | 00;06;47;09 | Mm hmm. And again, in most of the rest of the world, that's not the case. So, you know, if they're able to find it, find some kind of a training program, oftentimes a poor one is better than nothing. But in terms of developing training programs, there are some resources that were particularly developed out of the missions commission of the World Evangelical Alliance in the 1990s.
| Scott | 00;07;17;29 | And there's a series of three or four books that really focus on developing training programs. So they talk about really a whole process of talking to stakeholders, finding out from people in the target population what are the needs and what are the resources that are already available and how do you bring those together. And so a book by Robert Ferris, for instance, who taught for years at Columbia Bible College, he and a series of colleagues have developed these books that really help somebody walk step by step through the process of developing a training program of whatever kind.
| Laurie | 00;08;13;03 | So how might a person access or find a list of some of those good books that you're referencing?
| Scott | 00;08;19;26 | I think they're probably still available World Evangelical Alliance Missions Commission, and I think there's probably a link on materials.
| Laurie | 00;08;30;21 | Yeah. We'll look for that website and maybe give that out. That might be a good place to go for some more information or ideas on that.
| Scott | 00;08;38;09 | Yeah.
| Laurie | 00;08;39;09 | Well, I don't know. I kind of wandered here hither and yon in this conversation, but anything else that comes to mind to you, Scott, that you would just like to say about the need for formal or non-formal Christian education in the world today or anything else you just would like to say?
| Scott | 00;08;58;09 | Well, I think I just want to affirm the value of of both kinds of training. You know, as you've said, they have their strengths and their weaknesses and I, I think they are coming together in many ways and are able to enrich each other. Schools at least in some places, are incorporating more and more of the methodology of non-formal.
| Scott | 00;09;27;24 | And I think that's a real positive thing. That's that's not true in many places that the world in many places, there still is a very hierarchical and kind of authoritarian approach to to teaching that the teachers, the expert and the the job of the student is just to write down everything the teacher says and memorize it. But to the extent that discussion and engagement and an integration of life, ministry and education happens, I think that that's that's the ideal and that God's people can be better equipped that way, that they can be engaged in meeting the needs of the world in a variety of ways as they understand more and more who God is and
| Scott | 00;10;26;15 | learn how to how to integrate that understanding with their life and the ministry. So I affirm the value of that, and I hope that that happens more and more, you know, in all places in the Gospel because of that will expand into places where it's never been. And that God's people will engage the needs of the world and in the most effective possible ways.
| Laurie | 00;10;54;27 | Amen. That's the ultimate goal. Absolutely. I agree Thank you so much, Dr. Scott Klingsmith, for your time and sharing with us on this podcast and blessings on your ongoing investment in the future leaders of the church where you are at Denver Seminary.
| Scott | 00;11;13;22 | Well, thank you very much. It's fun to think about these things.
| Laurie | 00;11;17;02 | I hope it's been interesting for you, too, to think together with Dr. Klingsmith and me about formal and non-formal Christian leadership training. I do want to point out some resources that Dr. Klingsmith mentioned. He talked about the organization and website, the World Evangelical Alliance Mission Commission. Their website is weamc.globa. weamc.global. That’s for the World Evangelical Alliance.
| Laurie | 00;11;47;15 | Mission Commission. That site is just full of content that I think you'll find really valuable. And I especially want to point out one book. The book is called Establishing Ministry Training: A Manual for Program Developers. It's edited by Dr. Robert W Ferris, published in 2000 And the whole book is available for free download at the website. OK, I've got your attention now.
| Laurie | 00;12;14;01 | Again, that website is weamc.global and then you can go to Slash Resources Slash Books to find that book by Dr. Robert W Ferris, Establishing Ministry Training: A Manual for Program Developers. I must point out, by the way, that Dr. Ferris is from Columbia International University in South Carolina which I'm proud to say is my Bible College alma mater.
| Laurie | 00;12;41;23 | Now, because Entrust loves to encourage learning through the use of questions here's a question for you today to think about and maybe jot down some thoughts. The question is this: How would you define formal and non-formal training to someone who is new to those concepts? See if you could write a definition of formal and non formal training. I bet you'll start noticing that both types of learning are happening in your life just about every day.