[00:00:00] :  this this this show is brought to you by safety. FM. Well, we're we'd like to welcome back Don Becker Durnin who's vice president of people first property and casualty services. Is that the correct name? Don. You're always getting promoted and everything else. I was kind of that is the correct name. And we are part of a crew. Sure, we are a private company and we provide insurance products, mainly property and casualty. So not the benefits or the life insurance, but liability for third party kind of losses such as property damage or bodily injury. And the property coverage would be your buildings. It could also include auxiliary structures. So we're looking to protect primarily businesses. Right? So if we recall last year, we have gone on for two things because something happened that got by me over the summer with all the stuff we were dealing with And it really was not covered the actual details. So, if we recall on June 24 of last year, that's 2021. A 12 story beachfront condominium in the Miami suburb of surfside Florida. Yeah, I'm a professional broadcaster here. Uh, surfside florida had collapsed. Right? And it was called the champlain Towers South. It was a horrific thing. Uh, no, middle of the night. 1:22 a.m. And there was a settlement this past june, I believe it was um, uh, for an undisclosed amount of money, but it was reported from what I've heard, over $500 million. Well, in excess of 500 million. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I've heard. And there are some details that really there were no, I found them online after dawn had mentioned it to me last week, but they're specifically with health and safety with the and I was just like, this is why it's important to train your people. Number one, we always know that and we do the training here obviously. And number two is that you have to drill, have drills. Because as we said, a couple of weeks ago, we had one uh actual uh process was on fire at an oil refinery and I and one person in refused to listen to the emergency alarms or to me because he says, I don't listen to alarms and I don't listen to safety professionals. That was his excuse. And maybe if they feel that they might lose $517 million but they don't do what they're supposed to do. That might help them, maybe might help them. Number three is that we have, it's the people who do not get the training necessary. In my experience, just my experience I'm are usually the security guards, I had to manage a whole team of security guards for one project. And it was high turnover rate for them. So the company did not that they were working for, did not invest in training and I ended up having to train them constantly. I had a whole training program for them and I can see where that could be the weak part, especially if you're dealing with security guards and things of that nature in a affluent community or at least not a urban center or anything like that. And you're in an affluent, they may not treat security people with respect. I'm just talking out of safety. Well, I think to, with security guards, um we have to look to what are they doing? They're supposed to provide safety, protect the health and the welfare of individuals that we task them to mind whether it's protection of a building, don't let anybody on site or if it's a concierge service in the building that will be taking your package is bringing them up, um responding to resident complaints etcetera. But security guards also, it's difficult from an employer standpoint because they may have to do certain things as far as checks and balances. So if I'm hiring a security guard company to work on site, I most likely will want a background check, I will want drug testing. Those are very expensive and often occur in the beginning of the job process. So the hiring when they finally do get hired. Now we have to start training and I think most employers are feeling a shortage and they're feeling the pain of not being able to obtain a qualified individuals or experienced individuals and they may be stretched, but security is really an aspect that we can't take lightly and we need to invest in the training. So in champlain towers, they actually played paid let me preface this. Neither one of us was specifically involved in the investigation or the operation. These things I'm just saying from experience, maybe I'm a little bit harsh. A lot of security companies, they don't invest in their people, the ones that I've worked with, some which are nationally recognized and I don't know the specific name of this company But that are nationally recognized. They were phenomenal job. It's the smaller ones that may be very, very local or very regional. Got really they're like safety professionals. I was having this conversation with someone yesterday every time there's a downturn in the economy. Anybody with a 30 hour outreach training certificate now markets themselves as a safety professional just to get a job and keep money coming in and we know that that's there's problems with that because a 30 hour outreach certificate of total quote certification is not a certification, it's training, it's just an awareness level training. So this is like akin to that. So go ahead. Don. I'm sorry. Well, no, and and the security company for champlain Towers is a large national in fact international company. The aspect here and and why this security company was brought into the lawsuit and also paid the majority of the settlement is because they were sued for negligence wrongful death and personal injury related to the collapse. The allegation was that the guard that was on duty that night called 911 and did that 10 minutes before the collapse. However, they did not activate the building wide in unit voice alarm that could have given the residents the opportunity to evacuate prior to the collapse. And that is why the security company of all of the defendants will be paying the most. Now this was a $1 billion plus settlement. It is one of the largest settlements for a condo association in connection with negligence that we've seen the builder and developer for the association who originally um the next door there was a, I think we all heard about the ground shaking and complaints from the residents. They paid a portion of the settlement as well. There were many individuals who had been on site and may have done work. For example, the engineering firm that provided the report to tell champlain towers what items needed to be corrected and what were emergent. That engineering firm, even though they did absolutely no work And only provided a scope of work, cost analysis was also brought into the litigation of course and they paid a portion of the settlement to the law firm. For the association paid a portion of settlement and it was over $25 million. So professionals have a higher due duty or a higher standard that they must adhere to. So jim. When you talk about all of your qualifications, your professional certifications and your education that you've received. You know, before we got on this call, you said, well I only have a Master's and I laughed. Only have a master's, but there are a lot of individuals out there that have not completed training or not passed tests and then continue to operate or do things in their own way and it really depends on who you are working with that may require certain professionalism or certifications, but are they doing their duty to verify that the individual they hire has those credentials. Right. And uh that goes into it. It all goes into it. What does it come down to? It all has No, I remember at the time that this happened, there were a lot of reports, I don't know if they were verified or anything. There is a report, jim. So they have come down with some of the findings of what caused the collapse and I believe it is online, I will send you a link and then if any of your listeners would like to look up that information, I'm sure you could share that with the, in the professional safety community communication and planning are just a few keys to your program success. The question many practitioners have is where do I start dr J allen, the creator of the Safety FM platform and host of the Our Safety show has built a Global Foundation to help you along the way. Go to safety FM dot com and listen to some of the industry's best and most involved professionals including Blaine Hoffman with the safety pro sam Goodman with the Hop nerd Sheldon Primus with the safety consultant, Jim proposal with safety wars Emily, L Rod with unapologetically bold and many others. As India individuals, we can do great things, but as a team, we become amazing, dial into safety FM dot com today and surround yourself with a powerful force of knowledge and support. Mhm. By the way, this is all public information, we we are actually speaking to information that is known. Uh the information can also be looked up through the court system and you can get more details there right exactly now with the, with the towers and everything. I know that there was some, a lot of the building inspectors at the time, they were looking at, you know, as to whether or not they did their due diligence. So it's important for everybody to do their basically do their job. I mean, I had a, I was on a project a couple of weeks ago where we had, we had to demolish a set of stairs and the facility was designed For example, that all of the step offs, all of the elevated areas were exactly 17". All right. The OSHA standard is when there's a break of an elevation of 19", you have to provide some kind of a stair, right under the construction standard. So I said, I see what happened here. The original standard has been around since the early 1970s. The designers of this facility? That seems like a very specific number 17 inches. They most likely designed this facility. So they were not during any construction or renovation activities, there wouldn't be any need for temporary stairs. And being the safety professional. I said you're gonna get hurt almost as bad from 19 inches to 17 inches. Alright, I'm taking a 17 inch fall onto concrete already. It's not fun. All right. It's not funny. You will go to the hospital. I will tell you that I recently had a community association in south Carolina that paid close to a million dollars theater insurance carrier or that exact same issue. Their building was built in the 19 sixties. It was code at that time. However, a little old lady going up the stairs, the risers were not the code height today stand, she fell and had a traumatic brain injury. The uh, we were having a problem in the United States was gonna be called social inflation. So this did go to court and the jury found in her favor. But the settlement was much more than it typically would have been. And when I say social inflation is because we've all become attuned to social media and aspects that get filtered in from different news sources whether they're correct or not. But most of the information we receive out there is sort of shock value. Right. So now now juries are even more what they did, what and it's all about the man, right? The deep pockets, where can we get the money? So you get to court? They want to penalize somebody, hey, you know what? I have this happen to me and you know what? That's not fair. And it's not always the law that they're looking at now. They're taking their personal feelings, especially jurors and the settlements are 3-5 times greater than they were even five years ago. So we're getting into that. I'll, we'll get touch back on that in a minute. We had so many what did I end up doing and again, I have my insurance agent here complete disclosure. I actually put it in writing saying that they had to do something guardrail stairs situation Jim that somebody said to me. Well we talked about it. Well, where is the documentation? Because when we look, you know, incidents, they happen. Right. And then you're going to provide your incident report. You're gonna have documentation. We hope you have photographs, perhaps a written report from a witness with their contact information. Most of the times when the incident happens before it gets to court. Could be two years. It could be five years depending upon the keys during covid we had cases that were backed up more than two years. So Now we've got to court and people's memories have failed them. People have forgotten the details of what has occurred. So now we go back to the written report and that's what we're going to rely on. Well, if it's not in the report, it didn't happen. Right? Oh, that's what I tell people. So under the 1926 And I believe it's 32, a competent person has got to do regular inspections of construction site. They don't mention what those are. And unless you have it in writing, those inspections never happened. That's what I tell people. Can you say that again? A reasonably caught? My confident person has to do regular inspections of a job site under under Under OSHA construction regulations. Don't want a confident person, confident person. Very good question. A confident person under OSHA and this. I'm not gonna read it verbatim. But this is what the idea is. A confident person is either through education or experience, preferably both. Right? It could be both, has the ability to, to assess hazards, Right? So, and it also has the ability to correct hazards. So a lot of people have the ability to assess the hazard. So I could go and uh, and my listeners will know the story, right? We have, last year we had a person. So on all of my jobs, the confident person has to sign off on paperwork that says they're in a confident person and the company where the companies have to supply a name, unlike company letterhead or from a company email address stating that they are, this is the competent person and they have the authority to correct hazards. Last year we were on a job and a person was uh designated a confident person On all 27 OSHA areas, which I can't do. All right. And this person had just been in the business about a year, was 22 years old and had previous experience in the medical field. And as you know, people in the medical field often go into safety. A lot of people, they, there's plenty of things to do in safety. All different backgrounds. You can have. I Yeah. So you know, so for example, one of my good colleagues, work colleagues is has an english background. I have no two of them, they have an english background. Well, guess what? They can't get to do whether they get to write reports that are phenomenal in there. All right, because that's a need. But anyway, I said to this person, I said, uh, you signed off on all this stuff that you're the competent person and they said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, and and their boss had just come over. I said, okay, so you're a competent person in fall protection. Yes. Well, what training do you have OSHA 30 our outreach. I said you do know that that's not well, and this was from a different, that I wasn't directly responsible for them per se, but I was on the general contractor and there was no contractual arrangement. But I was like in charge of that world, that's making sure they're doing the right thing. And I said, okay, you have it down for Ariel and boom lifts confident person. Yeah, okay. Do you know how to operate one? No. And then it went on and on and on and on and on. I won't worry you. And then she and then I said to her uh her boss came over and said, is there a problem? I said, yeah, we're wondering why she signed off on all this paperwork that she's a competent person and she has no training or anything else. I said, well, if there's a problem, would she be able to shut down the job? He said if she shuts down the job, she had better be right. Which would indicate to me that she does not have the authority to do that. But if you're giving a direction like that, you better be right. And so she didn't meet the first test where she wasn't able to assess hazards. There are huge issues that she was having that she wasn't assessing that I had and I actually had to stop work on the job and there I have no contractual arrangement with them. So for me to stop work, you know, it had to be something over the top, totally over the top uh dealing with fall protection. I would imagine it was life safety that was concerned. We tell individuals all the time, especially from an insurance standpoint, You would be shocked how many people will sit in their house while it's burning and call you up and say, what's my deductible? And you'll say, hey, is that is your house on fire right now? And they'll say, yeah. In fact, I'm in the, I'm in the basement right now and, and the fire department is on the way, but I don't want my insurance rates to go up. So just, you know, is this gonna be a problem? And it really comes down to, is, let's have the foresight to really think this through and we never want to risk the loss of life versus property. And we should always also be thinking from a safety professional, if we cannot control the scene or we cannot keep ourselves safe, how we also help others. And so, and so she failed. The first says she didn't know what couldn't assess. But even with the stuff she was able to assess, her boss just told her basically she doesn't have the authority in my opinion. At least jim don't you find as a safety professional that you get that a lot from people who hire you, they want to dictate what safety you're going to analysis you're going to do or, or guide you purse. Yeah. Back in the day when I was a very young safety professional working for a company called Enviro gen X that doesn't exist anymore. I, the owner, I ran into a similar situation as this person as an excavation competent person and they said, you and I shut down the job, right? And uh, shut down an activity, not the job, the activity because they were not following the regulation and it was very explicit that they weren't following the regulation. They said, well, we're not just go back and eat donuts and drink coffee. And the, that's what I got the expression in the trailer, blah, blah, blah. I got my boss on a phone, remember pre cellphones? And he said, okay, well, don't worry about it. You're obviously not the confident person. I guess you sent him a did you beat him on his beeper? Yes, page 911. Yeah. But Yeah, exactly. But you know, this is the whole thing. Is that a no, she and this is what a confident person is. Someone who is able to assess and no corrected if and the company has got to go and explicitly in paper in writing designate that person by default, it's going to be the foreman. And, and if the foreman, there's something fouled up. OSHA has also determined that the owner or whatever the company is that the confident person, right? Because if that's the only person ultimately with authority to correct the thing and that's investigation. That's something that if you're hiring someone that's the road, you don't want to go down because now you're talking about attorneys and you're gonna have a very long drawn out process here. So I always force everybody who's the confident person here in our insurance, In my aspect, in my area, we actually look for a reasonably prudent person. What would a reasonably prudent person do in this situation? A reasonable and practical person. In fact, our general liability insurance excludes injuries that would be known or that are intended, meaning that you're aware of a situation if you have not made the corrective action or taking corrective action and an injury occurs, the insurance care can declined to provide coverage because it was that known or intended injury you knew about it or you intended for it to occur. Exactly. So, you know, that's enough. No, with that it's very very difficult to manage these people, you know, and you know, and it's I've gotten to the point now, before I'm sorry, the minute that you get letters after your name, there's no excuse on anything before that, you maybe have a little bit of wiggle room, but you may not because of, you know, there are other things other than, you know, professional credentials. Once you get whatever it is. Look, I'm the C. S. V. I'm working on a job. Now, people are laughing where I'm basically confined space entry attendant. So something that you would normally give like a first or second, I was gonna say, my husband is trained in confined space rescue and he worked for a large national equipment sales and rental company. So part of their sales benefit to a client is to provide them with this safety training and whether it's confined space hazardous materials and he will say it's pretty shocking especially when there are I'm sorry jim I have a parrot that is background and I don't know if you can hear him right now. It's cutting in every once in a while. The parrot what I love you. Oh he's screeching and yes he is a green amazon parrot a blue fronted and he is very vocal so I apologize about not hearing it go ahead. But you were saying you know you're he's probably shared the story. He's shocked with what he sees out there. Yeah and you know he worked in a trench safety division, entrenched safety as you know I I find that a lot of contractors really cut corners with respect to shoring. Now as an insurance agent I specialized in the new york area for construction liability, contractual liability. So how are we going to transfer that risk from the general contractor to his subcontractor from the owner to the G. C. We want to make sure that there is a line of coverage is from the from the bottom guy all the way to the top guy so that there's no gaps. And um it's very shocking to see when we're looking at ensuring a contractor to find that they have had OSHA violations and I think they're even more shocked that we as insurance agents have looked that up and that we're aware of it. But if you have a notion violation we will not be insuring the most insurance carriers will decline to provide coverage because that and from an insurance standpoint is probably one of the most egregious places you could be. It's shown now that it's probably when it occurred OSHA of course levies fines and that. But the situation probably was worse than what it looks like on paper with OSHA. Well that's that's well when I know OSHA is coming things tend to get cleaned up is the other thing. That's correct situation. So you figure you know in this area if you have an I. D. L. H. Situation which is a higher priority than fatality investigation immediately dangerous life and health they're usually they're within three hours in my experience which is pretty good. Alright. That's really good. They're they're within three hours. Uh No. Uh Number one. Number two because they've got to stop everything that they're doing and everything else. Right? So I think that's actually really good fatality investigation, they're usually there if it happens in the morning they're usually there by the afternoon if it gets reported to them. Alright well more commonly with a catastrophic or fatality their their fatality there usually there that day or first thing in the morning the next day. The really catastrophic situation maybe two or three days. So a lot can happen in those, two or three days of cleaning up. There's one company I won't mention the name of it that I've worked with in Northern New Jersey that refused admission to an OSHA citation officer and they fought in court for three years and in three years they cleaned up all their stuff. So by the time that they got the person in there and everything, everything that would have, they would have been cited with was cleaned up. And we'll tell you jim, it's, we would probably look to somebody who has a criminal record and has murdered somebody and provide them with insurance before. We'll provide insurance with somebody with an ocean violation. Right? Yeah. Well, I also think too, there's, you know, we're not insurance professionals are typically highly educated. There's a big legal component. We have to read a lot of documents. Were not attorneys. Some of us are in the insurance business. In fact quite a few are. I mean, who writes these insurance policies, attorneys who gets to decide on how the coverage applies, the judge, the attorneys, its case law precedent et cetera. But you know, we had our topic today I think is really important because we're gonna be talking about electric vehicles and that was part one of our interview with Don Becker come back tomorrow for our next episode where we discuss electric cars and insurance requirements and other great things. You can contact us at jim at safety words dot com or 8452695772. For more information and to schedule any of your training classes. We also address any of your health and safety needs for safety wars. This is Jim proposal. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise. Without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J Allen