In this episode, Jhunette Lopez and Moses Nayakey take us on an exhilarating journey, sharing their backgrounds from Lopez’s upbringing in the Philippines to Nayakey growing up in Kenya. Both raised with strong work ethics and family values, they have always been driven individuals in areas of their lives. Their drive and determination led them to transition from Australia to the vibrant and diverse landscape of Dubai, where they explore and compare culture differences, work environments, and decision-making processes between the UAE and Australia.

Timestamps:
00:01:10 | From Dreams to Reality: Acquiring Their First Properties
00:06:07 | A Turning Point
00:08:35 | Partnering with a Buyer’s Agent: Navigating the First Property Together
00:12:06 | Doing Property Research Solo: Queensland Quest
00:14:08 | Unlocking Opportunities: Leveraging Cash Flow for Better Lending Terms
00:15:41 | Navigating Broker Relationships: From Trust to Independence
00:22:59 | Maximising Property Portfolio: Leveraging Rental Income and Appreciation
00:27:05 | Lessons from Losses: Navigating the Share Market
00:29:42 | Putting the Brakes On: Challenges in Borrowing and Refinancing
00:31:41 | Navigating Challenges: Dealing with Dogy Agents and Tradespeople
00:38:05 | Reflecting on Past Choices: Balancing Boldness and Caution
00:39:22 | Balancing Hard Work and Intuition: Navigating the Path to Success
 
Resources and Links:

Transcript:
Jhunette Lopez:      

That’s what made me want to leave Australia. I don't like describing it like this, but it's a vanilla trajectory career path for an HR professional. So, whilst going to Dubai wasn't about [climbing] up the ladder, it was about exposure and experience, and I definitely got that and [am] still getting that. 

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

 

I’m Tyrone Shum, and in this episode, we’re speaking with Jhuntte Lopez, an HR professional at Samsung, and Moses Nyakeya, a technical product owner. They discuss their journey from Australia to Dubai in pursuit of gaining professional opportunities whilst building a strong property portfolio that allows them to have opportunities in UAE.

Tyrone Shum:     

Leaving behind the familiarity of Sydney, Lopez embarked on a quest for professional diversity, seeking opportunities beyond the Asian hubs typically coveted by Australians and ultimately finding her niche as an HR business partner in Dubai. 

Jhunette Lopez:      

I am currently in HR, so I'm an HR business partner. We are actually both currently based in Dubai. I left about five years ago, wanting something a little bit different from Sydney. [I grew] up in Sydney, having come to Australia when I was two with my parents and it was a case that my educational background [and] my professional background has always been here in Australia. 

I wanted something a little bit different and [more] diverse from a professional landscape. As an Australian, I feel like I tried to get a job in the likes of Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, [and] even the Philippines. I think that's where predominantly Asians tend to want to go, and I couldn't land a job there. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Embarking on a professional odyssey from Sydney to Dubai with Emirates, Lopez found herself immersed in a culturally diverse landscape, yet the unforeseen challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic cast a shadow over her journey. 

Jhunette Lopez:     

So it was actually in Dubai for a job with Emirates; that's what took me over to the Middle East. It's not that conventional. There [aren't] as many Australians, I feel, in the Middle East as there are, let's say, for example, British [people]. Yeah, it's what took me there. It's something professionally different, and Emirates is definitely a different experience. 

However, unfortunately, COVID wasn't very kind to aviation, and so I was impacted by that. I'm still in the HR business partner capacity with Emirates, and that would probably be the most challenging time for me professionally. We had to get rid of 30% of our workforce, and I was part of that. I wanted something different career-wise; I definitely got it. But I would say that the journey was initially very good at the start with pre-COVID-19. 

Working for Emirates and being able to travel has been wonderful. Being based in the UAE, [I] was so amused whilst I was there. When travel was good to be able to, you know, pop into another country, it's a three-hour flight. As an Australian, you're in New Zealand, or you're still trying to get over to Perth in that timeframe. So that's been a really magical experience. For now, we're still in the UAE, still in Dubai, and I'm currently working for Samsung. 

Tyrone Shum:      

Okay, so no more Emirates.

Jhunette Lopez:   

Unfortunately, it's been hard, especially being able to come home. It's been trickier and more expensive, that's for sure.

Tyrone Shum:     

Nyakeya reflects on his consistent journey in the telecommunications industry, finding common ground in technology across continents whilst acknowledging the unique experiences shaped by the diverse human dynamics encountered along the way. 

Moses Nyakeya:     

I am an engineer in telecommunications. I'm currently working with a local [indiscernible] over there as a technical product owner. That was my profession even back in Australia; I've always been in the industry in telecommunications. 

Obviously, [it's] a little bit different over there. But I guess industry and technology are [essentially] the same all over the world. So it doesn't matter where you are; you're always going to be in the same kind of environment most of the time. The world is so small when you actually look at it, because being over there has been an experience in itself. 

Tyrone Shum:     

I was going to say the only difference between technology is people. Technology itself works perfectly fine; it's the people that run them.

Moses Nyakeya:   

Exactly. 

Tyrone Shum:     

[With] their nostalgic reflections on how their encounter at a Christmas party sparked the beginning of their relationship, they ponder the swift passage of time, with parenthood adding an accelerated rhythm to life’s ever-changing tempo. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

It was at an after-work Christmas party many moons ago. I think it was 17 years ago, maybe. A long time ago when we were [like] puppies. 

Tyrone Shum:     

I know the feeling and can relate. Time flies, yeah, especially when you've got children. Time flies even faster. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

What is up with that? It's like, she was a little potato, she was a little scrunch, and now we're celebrating her first birthday. It's weird. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Just wait until you start celebrating when they're reaching primary school. I've got a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old, and I go 'Where has time gone?' 

Jhunette Lopez:   

It's super speed. It's even faster. I always thought that because we were getting older, time goes faster. Then when you have children…

Moses Nyakeya:    

It then goes much faster. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Immersed in the fast-paced work culture of the UAE, Lopez navigates her role in HR at Samsung, juggling various responsibilities from recruitment to managing cultural nuances, all while balancing the conveniences of modern services with the demands of her profession. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

The UAE is a work-work-work culture. It's equipped with [services] like nannies, lots of food services, meal plans, [and] cleaners. Everything is app-enabled. We were laughing because you can get your petrol delivered as well, so [that's what you can get] even when you don't want to pump your own gas. 

So life is easier in that respect with all the chores and [tasks] that need to be done. But in exchange for that, it's work work work. And so for me, what a typical day looks like in Samsung— I still commute, so good old public transport. So my day is a little bit longer because of that. 

I'm in the business of people, being in HR. So that's anything from recruitment, to performance management, to talent management, to succession, to planning, [and] unfortunately, to hiring and firing. That's kind of what my typical day looks like. 

And in terms of the HR calendar, it depends [on] what's topical. Sometimes, for example, when it rains in Dubai, it's awful; you can't even get to work. So that's what we're dealing with for the day. 

I also work for a Korean company, and so there are a lot of cultural nuances that get implemented from our headquarters. So [we] try to deal with that. We've got a lot of tenure as well as a lot of churn with our people. So the hiring is always constant. That takes up the bulk of my day—dealing with people [and] dealing with teams. 

And I look after the mobile division; our most profitable business. Obviously, when you think Samsung, you [usually] think phones before you think TVs and appliances. So that's the stakeholder group that I look after. In the Middle East, we're predominately a sales and marketing organisation, so sales and marketing professionals are my stakeholder group.

Tyrone Shum:    

Wow, that's amazing. So, in the UAE, is that the particular HR group that you're managing?

Jhunette Lopez:   

Yeah, it's the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council). So we're even looking after places like Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, [and] Amman. So the remit is a little bit wider. But you know, there are only like half a dozen people in each of those countries on the ground. The UAE and Dubai especially is where we're predominantly based and located.

Tyrone Shum:     

Engulfed in the midst of a colossal digital transformation, Nyakeya’s daily routine unfolds with a flurry of meetings, strategic decisions, and collaborative efforts with diverse teams and partners. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

At the moment, we're [undergoing] a massive digital transformation over there. My typical day revolves around meetings, making decisions, [and] dealing with development teams— [including] engineers, software developers, [and] partners. 

Obviously, with technology, we have to partner, we have to work with different stakeholders and different technology providers. So if you think about that, you know, there is quite a number of partners that we actually deal with, considering you're building a brand new platform, whereby you're integrating different sort of connectivities, and all that type of stuff. So I find myself dealing with a lot of that every day —meeting [with] these people. 

From a software development perspective, [it involves] dealing with developers and trying to make things happen. Then at the end of the day, it's all about revolving around that day-in, day-out, of course, until the project actually finishes. Of course, the project actually has milestones and these milestones are marked. As you go along, you've got a time timeframe that you're actually working with. And you know [when you're] trying to achieve those time frames, it does squeeze a lot of time, and trying to get to that can be a little bit hectic. 

But again, as Jhunette was explaining, over there it's work work work, so it's actually quite long hours of trying to get things done.

Tyrone Shum:     

Amidst the hustle of chasing non-taxed earnings and embracing the glamorous allure of frequent travels, Lopez reflects on the precious moments of family time and the contrasting work-life balance observed in her new home in the UAE. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Obviously, slaving away for non-taxed earnings. So [the] saving capacity is partially the reason why we're there. The ability to travel has been amazing. Like I said, when I was working for Emirates, I'd be ducking off to a country almost every second month, just because we could. So that's been glamorous. 

Though it's a work-work-work culture, like I said, everything is at your fingertips when you need a cleaner, you need care for your child, you need your petrol, you need something done. That's easy. 

But then what becomes really precious is your time with your family. So when it's family time, that's the priority. When you're kind of sort of saying, 'Well, you see the difference? That would be the main difference: that work-life balance'. 

We come here and we're like, [we see] people are working part-time, people are working from home, people are having work-life balance, people are having a barbecue on the weekends, people are going on their boat, and we're like, 'Oh, that sounds lovely'. And it's such a trade-off. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Navigating the intriguing social landscape of Dubai, they both often find themselves as conversation starters, defying expectations with their diverse backgrounds, promoting curious inquiries about their choice to reside in a city where the relentless pursuit of success intersects with the allure of home. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

I feel like being there is really interesting. You meet a lot of people in Dubai, and the first thing [they ask] is, 'Where are you from?' When you say Australia, they're always like, 'Why are you here when half the people want to get there?' It's an interesting conversation starter. Then Moses and I feel like we're an anomaly because I am Filipino, and [there's] a huge Filipino community; I think it's the third-largest population in the UAE. Then they hear my accent, and they can't place me. 

Similarly, like with Moses, [when] we say we're Australian, but they'll look [at us] and what they're expecting [doesn't match]. I guess that would probably happen here as well, but there, it's a little bit more [noticeable]. I would say it's a conversation starter, which is nice. 

But yeah, it's that [question]: 'Why are you here when everyone wants to try to get to Australia where there is work-life balance?'. And like I said, it originally was for [professional reasons], and now it's been a bit of a nice journey to be able to travel. Moses and his family are close by; that's [just] a four-hour flight instead of a 26-hour flight. And so, yeah. And being able to raise up your daughter somewhere a little bit different.

I think we personally know that home will be here for that very reason. You're kind of saying, 'Well, we've experienced both worlds'. This world is nice when we're ready for it. I don't know. We always have this conversation: Are we ready for it? Not sure yet. 

But I always feel that Dubai is a tipping point where if it doesn't serve you anymore, when the bad outweigh[s] the good of being there—because it's expensive, like [we] said it's [all about] work, work, work, [and] the weather is horrendous in summer. 

It's winter now, but in summer, when it's a 45-degree minimum for three months, and your life is indoors, and as an Australian, [we find] that's hard. 

We have the biggest malls, or we have all the biggest entertainment facilities. And that's because in summer, people need to be indoors. So that's why they have all this catered for you. But it's not nice. 

They always have the egg-frying challenge, [where] you fry an egg on your car bonnet and it actually fries, because by the time your car's sitting outside, it's 60 [to] 70 degrees. That just happens every summer. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Reflecting on their decision to reside in Dubai, Lopex ponders the multifaceted reasons driving their presence there. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

So, why are we there? I think it's still serving its purpose for travel, being close to the other side of the family, working, earning capability, and exposure. Like, to say that I'm looking after the GCC region, I'd love to say that I'm going to start to look after a bigger region, maybe Europe. 

Sometimes, I know from HR capacity, I probably wouldn't have [had] that [opportunity] here in Australia, so I needed to diversify. And I always think, hopefully professionally, I can come back to something bigger and better as a result of stepping out of the Australian landscape. I told myself three years; it's now been five. So let's see where it takes us. 

Tyrone Shum:    

It sounds like there are a lot of great career opportunities over there, and the earning capacity is much higher. Ultimately, it'd be making a lifestyle decision, and [many] people would like to go there for that reason. Hence, the reason why there's a lot of funding that comes out of that country as well. It's fascinating. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

Yeah, absolutely. I just was going to agree with what Jhunette was saying about the work-life balance. I mean, that's the difference that you find between here and there. There's more work-life balance here and there's that flexibility. While over there, there are also cultural differences, of course, where things need to go in a certain way. It's very strict in terms of flexibility and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, maybe one day, we'll be back, and we'll hopefully enjoy that work-life balance. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Absolutely. Well, Australia will always be your home. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

I agree. It's interesting, though, now that I can say I'm an expat. I romanticise [about] moving to the next country, because once you do it once, you feel like you can do it again. Every time we're travelling, I look at it with the lens of 'Could I live here? Could I work here?' So that'd be nice. Always romanticising, but yeah, I haven't executed on maybe the next potential location. 

But like you said, Tyrone, home is home. So when we do come here, it's all about family. Before every visit, and again with Emirates, I used to come maybe every three months—the beauty of being able to access cheap flights—, and I would pack my days, meeting up with everyone. 

But now, we're literally here for two weeks, and we're like, 'We'll see [whomever] wants to see us'. We don't make plans because we feel like we're so much on the go in Dubai; like, here is a time to slow down. So that's what we're doing for the past week so far.

Tyrone Shum:     

Growing up in the Philippines, before moving to Sydney, Lopez’s childhood was steeped in hard work and family values, shaped by the industrious spirit of her Filipino roots and the vibrant multiculturalism of her Australian community in Bankstown.  

Jhunette Lopez:  

So it's up north—a town called Rosales, Pangasinan [in the Philippines]. We're known for our vegetable dishes and known to be really good eaters. So I'd say tick and tick. I came here [to Australia] when I was two [years old]. 

So when you [ask me] 'Where is home?', it will probably be Australia, because my connection to the Philippines is very limited in terms of just visiting family. Again, with the opportunity to travel, it would be between every two to five years just to touch base with family, because half the family, I would say, is still based there, as well as here in Australia. 

So, my upbringing, having come here [at the age of] two [years old], I would definitely say we're a family that assimilated very quickly. I grew up in Western Sydney; we still live in Bankstown. Being born in [the] Philippines [and] living in a community where it's [a] predominantly Vietnamese and Lebanese community, and ethnic community, [and a] working class community. That's what I know—so hard work. 

My parents [are] both retired now, but [they were] a nurse and mechanic—so very working class, right? 

[During] my upbringing, even coming to Australia, I always hear[d] the stories. It was my dad's blood, sweat, and tears, selling sugarcane [that] got us here in the '80s when the floodgates were opened. The immigrants could come in. You still needed an airfare, and that's how we got here. 

So I love hearing that story because it makes me really industrious; like, that's where I feel I get that from. I'm determined because of my upbringing. Whilst I would say my connection to the Philippines is not that strong, it still is technically. I'm a dual citizen. I still visit. Like I said, there's still family there that we always frequent and visit as well.

Tyrone Shum:    

Born and raised in Kenya, Nyakeya journeyed to Australia for his studies, spending his early years in Wollongong before settling in Sydney, where he embraced the opportunities his parents worked tirelessly to provide. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

I was born in Kenya [and] grew up there until the time that I came to Australia to study. Predominantly, I was down in Wollongong most of my time here in Australia at the time before I moved up to Sydney after university to work in the city—of course, that's where everyone works. 

So growing up, knowing my parents—both of them were teachers [and are] now retired. [And I have] three brothers. [My parents] put in all the effort to make sure we go to school [and] supported us, [by] making sure that we have the best that they can get for us. 

Obviously, there's kind of a cultural thing [where] your children are [seen] as your future, right? [Like], knowing that the best that we [children] can get maybe will help them out at their old age, I guess. But having said that, it has always been humbling. Coming from a humble background and achieving what we [have] achieved  so far, [we find] it's actually quite humbling.

Tyrone Shum:   

As Lopez reflected on her education journey, she recalled her uncertainty about her future, ultimately deciding to pursue a Bachelor of Arts. Amidst the allure of diverse subjects, the realisation dawned upon her in her second year the need to secure a job post-graduation, hence steering her to the field of Human Resources. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

[I attended] a local Catholic school and then an all-girls high school. Then [I went to] university at the University of Sydney. I didn't know what I wanted to do [so I] got into a Bachelor of Arts. 

The first year was wonderful, trying every subject under the sun, [but by the] second year, [I realised], well I need to get a job after this. It's nice to do all those lovely subjects like philosophy and history, but at the end of the day, for me to be able to work, I sort of picked that HR route, and [thought], 'Okay I will be in the business of people', and that's where I landed. 

Education was an interesting one. I was the typical 'P's equal degrees' [student]. I think [looking] back to my industrious upbringing, I started working when I was 14 [years] and nine months [old]. My first job was at Burger King. And then when you're in university, and you're like, 'Yeah, I'm studying, but tasting money and earning money is just as good'. So I'm like, 'I will equally distribute my efforts with work and universities'. So I got there, but not with the best marks, but enough.

Tyrone Shum:    

Oh, absolutely. I was the same as well. I just went [to] uni[versity] just to tick off the boxes, [because] that's what my parents wanted. I was like, what's the point? 

Jhunette Lopez:  

I was a little bit like that. So I got a bit overwhelmed when I was 19 [years old]. I think it was English—and I thought I would love this subject. I was so overwhelmed [that] I actually took six months off and travelled with a backpack by myself at 19 [years old]. I did summer camp in America—so where you work at a campsite and you've got kids for two months. 

Then I did that. And then I had a visa for Europe as well. So I intended to go for a year, [but] I went for six months because the money dries up very quickly when you're travelling and you're young. 

But then there was a bribe from my parents. They said, 'Get back to uni'. Because all of a sudden, once you've been travelling, you want to be a nomad at that point when you're young and everything is like an ideal. 

I didn't want to get a job. I didn't want to finish uni. My parents bought me a car, and that's what got me to stay. But I think that was a good bribe because at least I got my degree, and that set me straight on the path to be like, 'Oh okay, I'll finish my degree. I'll carry on'. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Yeah, otherwise, I know what would have happened. You would be travelling all the time. 

Jhunette Lopez: 

That's what would have happened. They knew. 

Tyrone Shum:   

So did you need to change the degree to fit into HR?

Jhunette Lopez:  

So yeah, Bachelor of Arts at Sydney University at that time. We were allowed to borrow from the Faculty of Economics. So, that was a sub-part major in HR and a gender studies major. So at least the HR components are on my certificate, [and] like I said, that's what would allow me to get the jobs. 

Tyrone Shum:     

Nyakeya recounted his journey from high school to engineering, highlighting the pivotal role of determination and familial support in shaping his path to success. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

In high school, I started to develop an interest in technology. When I had a chance of coming over [to Australia], I did get into engineering. I did my engineering degree at Wollongong University. Obviously, I knew that this was my path to success, as I [was] told by my parents. You [have] just got to put your foot down and you got to do it, [as] your future is dependent on this. 

So I [made] the effort and eventually completed my degree. I'm sure my parents were very proud of me because they came for my graduation. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

Then I started working, and [later] decided to extend my studies at the University of Technology Sydney, UTS. I [took my] Masters of Engineering there. But of course, at the time, I was actually working. The good thing about that time actually was that my work was actually paying for my school. So that was quite good. You know, doing part-time [studying] while you're working, so you're earning some money, and they're paying for your schools. That's quite nice.

Tyrone Shum:  

That's the best of both worlds. No one wants to pay for uni fees anymore nowadays.

Jhunette Lopez:  

Yeah. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

Exactly.

Tyrone Shum:     

Leaving Australia wasn’t just about seeking a change in scenery; it was a quest for a departure from the conventional HR career path, characterised by what Lopez termed as ‘vanilla trajectory’. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

For me, definitely, and that's what made me want to leave Australia. I don't like describing it like this, but it's a vanilla trajectory career path for an HR professional. So, whilst going to Dubai wasn't about [climbing] up the ladder, it was about exposure and experience, and I definitely got that and [am] still getting that.

The Middle East is such a different landscape and a different playing field, and the UAE as well. You've got to remember the UAE as a country is only 50 years old. For example, [just] two years ago, the Labour Law changed, and that was from 1985. So they're so advanced in some things, but really behind in other things. It's bridging that gap and trying to be the best, but then you've got all these things that are archaic. And so that's what makes it more interesting. 

So, while, like I said, it's not a professional up-the-ladders game that I'm playing there. It's the case of the level of exposure, the level of thinking, the level of adaptability, and resilience—that part I don't know if I'll ever get that in Australia, because Australia is a little bit more predictable from the HR space. It's [focused on] best practice and what's good for the employees. 

Our labour laws there [in the UAE] are pro-employer, not [pro-]employee; we don't deal with unions and we don't deal with unfair dismissal claims. They are far more harder there. 

So, it's been a very different lens that I look at, and hopefully, I can bring that back here, when I'm ready, with just a little bit more depth to what I know and what I can do because of my level of exposure to something a little bit more different. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Delving into the nuances of HR practices in Dubai compared to Australia, Lopez vividly illustrates the absence of best practices and the prevalence of a familial, top-down decision-making culture that often leads to projects crumbling over personal disputes, contrasting starkly with the most structured and procedural approach in Australia. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

The biggest difference [is that] best practices [are] not there because sometimes it feels like businesses [are] still run like a family business. 

So when there's bickering and fighting and how that cascades down, you still feel like a giant business like Emirates if a decision has been made a particular way. So I've seen projects crumble, where they've spent millions because someone wasn't invited to a meeting. That for me still feels like a small, family business that's being spiteful or gets a little bit [like] 'I'm going to dig my heels and not let that proceed'. 

I don't know if Moses has seen that in some of his workplaces, but sometimes it can feel like that. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

Actually, yes. I can corroborate. Individuals can change the trajectory of what you're doing. Like, it could be a big project that people spend millions [on] like the example that Jhunette gave that can change everything. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Wow. That doesn't happen here. If that happened, it'd be big enough [to bring it up] to corporate and then you [end] up negotiating. No way would they allow for that to happen. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

I guess it's also cultural. It's about being in position and power. That's well very highly regarded over there, like the CEO, or the CTO, or the top executive in this company. [They can think] if I feel like something is not aligned [with] my thinking or my preference, then I can say 'No', and I can veto whatever things that have been happening. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

The second part of that too, Tyrone, we call it 'wasta'. So if you've got someone in your pocket who's very influential, you could be just a small player but have a lot of influence because you've got someone in a higher [position] who can manoeuvre things for you. That, for me, still feels like a small-minded type of family business mentality. 

So again, you see changes in decision-making because of that. It's interesting. Like you said, you never get it in Australia, but it's a dynamic landscape that we play in, and we do because, back to Moses' [point], power is top-down; we're just workers at the end of the day. So yeah, our day is very different every day.

Tyrone Shum:    

I could imagine. That's the reason why it's got such a high work culture, because there are so many demands from the top. Whereas here, you know what it's like, especially [the] government, there's a lot of red tape, and you'd be sitting there just waiting for approval from all these people when you know, you get things done, but you can't do anything, because you're still waiting [for] approval. 

Whereas there, you get the work done and you just do do do it. That's the reason why they probably are working. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Well, look, [here's] another added layer of complexity. So not only [have we got] the power top-down, family-business [mentality] that I've explained, you've [also] got a melting pot of cultures. When they say Australia is so diverse, come to Dubai. The exposure to far more different people [is crazy]. I think at the moment, we've got 102 nationalities in Samsung, and we're only 300 people. So that's practically more than half the world covered, right?

And so when you're dealing with that landscape that I've described on top of different nationalities and the way people work, and their mentalities, a 'yes' means a 'no' depends on how they nodded [or on the case of] 'Did they look you in the eye?', you're navigating through all of that as well. 

And then I work for a Korean company, and they have their specific nuances that have made their particular nuances a little bit more different in the Middle East because it's a different region. That's the stuff that you wade through and navigate through that make[s] your day very interesting but very stressful as well.

Tyrone Shum:     

I can imagine. I could not even just deal with five or six different cultures.

Jhunette Lopez:  

That's why Australia sounds so lovely and vanilla, but I'm just not ready for that because I think I am personally enjoying these murky waters.

Tyrone Shum:    

It sounds like you love the thrill. 

Jhunette Lopez:    

Yeah, I think so. For the time being, yeah.

Tyrone Shum:  

To start, they shared the timelines of their first property acquisitions, reflecting on the significant life transitions surrounding their investments. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

Janette bought her first property in 2010, and I bought my first property in 2012. 

Tyrone Shum: 

Okay. So [in] 2010 and 2012, where were you then? Were you already in Dubai?

Jhunette Lopez:  

[I was] still living with [my] mum and dad so that I can save. Still finished university… Just…

Moses Nyakeya:   

Yes. You [Jhunette] just finished university. You were working at the time. I think [indiscernible]. At the time, I was also working. So when I got my property as well, so were both working. You were living at home. You actually lived [at] home until we got married.

Jhunette Lopez: 

I did the traditional thing and moved out once I got married, and also because it allowed me to save.

Tyrone Shum:  

As Nyakeya recounted their property journey, he highlighted the initial motivation behind their purchases, emphasising their focus on achieving the Australian dream of homeownership rather than embarking on a deliberate property investment journey. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

Her first property [was in] 2010, and my first property [was] in 2011. But at the time, actually, we were not really thinking of going down the property investment journey, really. Because at the time, we were like [pursuing the] Australian dream and be a homeowner. So buying a property was a big achievement. I owned a property and you just pay off your loan. 

The idea was actually when we [bought] the properties. I think the idea was around actually moving in. So I remember we were just discussing or debating sometimes, like, which one are we going to live in, yours or mine? But initially, that was the idea. 

Like, okay, buy your property, because, you know, like, having your savings… And I think one thing that she didn't say before was, because she start[ed] work[ing] so early, she had a bit of savings. So it was like, you know, what, she had some savings sitting there, they weren't really earning much [though] there's interest again. But if you put your money in property, you can… And I think your parents were encouraging you at the time...

Jhunette Lopez:  

Yeah, it's that typical, like you said, the Australian dream—bricks and water, right? Buy a property so that when you retire, you've got something. It's just as simple as that.

Moses Nyakeya:     

Yeah, so you know, putting money in their savings and saying, like, 'You know what, I've got a property. You know, happy days'. But I think with time, what started to happen is that we started to see… because like for me, for myself, some of my friends are interested in property. 

And one very good friend of mine was like, 'Hey, you know what, let's go and look for properties'. Because he hadn't bought then, and he was actually looking to buy. We used to go every weekend. We [would] drive around Sydney and just go [to] open homes. We just go to inspections, and we ask about the price; we get the brochures. We did it, I think, for almost like two years.

We started to think like, 'You know what, this property price is actually changing every time we actually go out there'. And I remember having a chat with Jhunette, and she was like, 'You know what, let's try and go and see these new areas where people are actually building, you know, like new areas around southwest Sydney, like Oran Park and all those places'. 

Sydney was actually expanding, you know—these new areas where building was going on. And we started to think like, 'You know what…'— Properties then, and I know this sounds strange, but you could go in those places and find a property for a [indiscernible] for under $380,000. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Yep, yep. I remember.

And at the time, we used to think, 'Wow, that's so expensive'. It's a different story now, but that's how it was. You go out there and you look at a four-bedroom home sitting on a 500-square-metre land, and you're thinking like, 'Wow, $380,000— I don't know about that'. But that's what it was. 

If you think about it now—in hindsight—, you think like, 'You know what? You should have just gone and corroborated with a lot of people and just get some loans and just bag those properties, and then right now, you'd be sitting very pretty—very very pretty'. But that's in hindsight. 

Their journey into property investment began with attending a seminar by B.Invested, igniting their interest and prompting them to delve into the world of real estate. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

I think that was an entry for us, you know, starting to get interested in properties and looking at the numbers and that kind of thing. I remember Jhunette once… I don't know where you saw that ad for those guys. I can't remember the name… 

Jhunette Lopez:  

B.Invested. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

We went to one of their seminars, and they explained to us how they did their property thing, and you're like, 'Wow, you can do that'. And then we were like, 'Okay, let's try and see how that goes'.

Jhunette Lopez:  

We got educated in particularly about the lending component of it. Because we were lucked out [after] we depleted all our savings for our first properties. But we were getting educated in terms of the property market; we're getting educated in terms of how to borrow. We just needed to execute because we were ready. We were, like, 'Let's buy [the] next one, let's buy the next one' to start amassing property. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

So what actually happened after that— you know, listening to one group or one property advisor talking about how you go about [investing in] property and stuff. What I actually started doing is that every single weekend, I would actually go out to different places [and listen] to different people talk about property. There were conferences all over Sydney, and I would actually drive to each and every one of them to try and actually understand what people are doing. 

And you start to see a trend once you start. There are a lot of them that don't provide too much information. There are others who provide a lot of information, which is very useful. Then there are others who just want your money because they're telling you, 'Oh, you know, you can invest in this place', and you find like, they've got some kickbacks from the developers or whatever. There are lots of those. 

But at the end of the day, these are the places you go and get information [from]. After you get the information, you use that information to make an informed decision on what is really going to work for you and what is best for you. And I think for us, that was the most important thing: the information, the education of learning and understanding of how the whole game actually works. 

Tyrone Shum:   

The decision to engage a buyer’s agent stemmed from a blend of apprehension and the allure of expertise, marking the beginning of their joint property investment journey. However, this was a learning curve. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

When that started, we both had a property each, and then we used a buyer's agent to get our first property. And I remember one of the things that was really eating me up was… 

Jhunette Lopez:   

You mean our third property.

Moses Nyakeya: 

Our first property together. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

Together. Sorry, yes. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

So each one of us has gotten a property, and now it was our first property together. We were using a buyer's agent, and the buyer's agent was like, 'Okay, I will try and find the best property for you that is going to give you some good cash flow and an area that has growth potential. And we think that this is going to be a really good property'. And we said, 'Okay, go ahead'. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Why did you choose a buyer's agent rather than going to buy it yourself? What was the reason why? Was it time restraints?  

Jhunette Lopez:   

[We were] scaredy-cats. It was our first time, our first time. We were educated, but like you know…

Moses Nyakeya:   

Yeah, it's a thing whereby you're convinced that… because you speak to a buyer's agent, and they tell you what they can do and you're like, 'Wow, how did you know about that?' Then we were like, 'Let's give it a go'. We gave it a go and, for me, and I think Jhunette understands that, the amount of money we had to pay them for them to get us that property really got me.

Jhunette Lopez:   

For the pleasure of them pulling out any property off of their spreadsheet most likely, right?

Moses Nyakeya:   

And then when I was looking at this— I remember one of the property they gave us. I looked it up on realeastate.com [and] it was actually there; it was actually on sale. And I'm trying to figure out… I can do this. 

The guy's gone and done some numbers, and they had a little spreadsheet which they will show you the cash flow [and say], 'This is the amount of outgoings, this is the council rates, this is how much you're going to pay for your stamp duty, this is whatever, this is how much you get for rent, and you do your thing and you're like, okay, this is your cash flow, this how much money you're going to get. Maybe in the first few years, you might be negatively geared, but later on, you're going to get your rental increases and all this and then the growth area and all these things, this is the kind of structure and everything'. 

And you're like, 'Okay, great. I've got the spreadsheet, I can do this'. 

So I started to kind of spend a lot more time online looking at these properties, but also attending these sessions that various groups and various property experts do every weekend around Sydney. That actually got us more interested, and we started to move in that direction. 

Now, when we paid for that first property together through a buyer's agent, they brought another property—the second one. We did the same. Then we were like, 'No, we should be able to do this one by ourselves'. 

Now we can see the trend because every single time they brought a property and we looked it up, we could find it in Domain.com or real estate.com. And I'm like, 'What's the difference? What did they see in this property that I wouldn't pick?' The more we looked into that, the more I looked into that, I was sort of convinced that I can actually do this by myself.

Tyrone Shum:    

Which is what you did.

Moses Nyakeya:  

And so we did. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Nyakeya took the reins of property research, discovering Queensland’s allure for positive cash flow investments, leading them to their next property venture, marking a shift towards independent decision-making in their investment journey. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

So [for] the next property, I actually did my own kind of research, and did my own kind of search across you know… Other time[s], actually, we stayed back. Other time[s], we were being told that 'You know what, if you really want a positive cash flow property, you need to go to Queensland'. Because what was happening in Queensland at the time was that the property prices were much lower than in New South Wales and Victoria, and the rents were at par, kind of. 

I will give you an example: If you find a property selling in Queensland for $220,000, you might find an equivalent property in Sydney selling for, say, $350,000. But guess what? The rents are exactly the same. So in Sydney, somebody will be paying $400 a week for that $350,000 property, and in Queensland, they'll be doing the same—they're paying $400 per week. So it makes sense to spend that $200,000 in Queensland, and get that rent. 

From a cash flow perspective, you actually [would] be in a better position. And that's what we did. 

So the property that we bought together, where we didn’t involve the buyer's agent or [got] any advice from anyone, was that. We went to Queensland [and] bought a property that was good cash flow, and I was feeling like, 'I'm a genius'. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

We've done it on our own. If anything, it was about the lending component of it and borrowing and not against holding our properties as collateral. That was the biggest [indiscernible]. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Realising the disparity between common investment advice and financial reality, Nyakeya shifted his strategy towards positively geared properties, recognising their potential for long-term financial growth and lending success. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

I'm sure you'll agree to this: The most common advice is for the mums and dads to [do] property investment. Like, you might find, a family, a mum and dad, being advised by their accountant [to] 'Buy this property, it's negatively geared, it's brand new, claim all this depreciation blah, blah, blah' —no. 

I think a lot of the advice that people get is along those lines, because, you know, you claim depreciation. But when you do your proper taxes and the numbers, it actually doesn't. It doesn't. It never adds up. 

So I think from that perspective, we were like, 'You know what, I think this advice of making sure that your property is towards a positively geared section so that you have more cash flow and all that kind of stuff, is actually going to make you move much [farther] ahead than somebody [who] is doing depreciation and all that other stuff'. So this started to drive us into that. 

Even from a lending perspective… and that's very very important. Lenders are always looking at your cash flow; they're looking at how much money comes in. So the more money that comes in, the better for you and the [better your] position is to go and borrow. Okay, so very interesting. 

Tyrone Shum:    

As they navigated their property investments, both found themselves transitioning away from reliance on intermediaries like brokers and agents, opting instead to harness their own resources and knowledge to propel their portfolios forward. 

The buyers agent connected us to a broker. So we were going to this broker and he was turning things around for us. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

Learn after learn. Learn after learn… and I think, yeah…

So we did it. Then it got to a point where we're like, okay, this guy is asking us, like, 'Hey, why don't you go through this agent?' And we were like, 'No, we can do it ourselves'. Then we started to feel like they were kind of slowing things down. For obvious reasons, because I think both of them… if I go through the buyer's agent, he makes his cut, and if I go through the broker, he makes his cut when the banks give them their commissions and all that kind of stuff. 

So when we started to do it by ourselves, this guy's like, 'But you're [indiscernible] by the other guy, why don't you continue using the other guy?' We're like, 'No, we're actually making a lot of savings. By doing it ourselves, we are actually able to use that money and go to that next property'. 

So the good thing is like, you know, equity harvesting. I think that's one thing that, you know, if your property has appreciated, there is a potential you [can] harvest the equity and use it as your next deposit for your next property. 

And for us, that was actually key. Because our properties in Sydney were appreciating, and we were able to have some equity, and then we used that as the deposit for the next property. And that helped us to go to the next property. And if the next property has got a good cash flow, guess what? You can do it again. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Taking control of their loan process, they shifted towards direct communication with banks, experiencing the highs of successful settlements with trusted contacts and the lows of ineffective brokers, emphasising the importance of knowledgeable individuals in navigating the complexities of property financing. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

What we did is, we started doing our own kind of searching and looking for how we can get the best loan. So we're actually contacting the banks directly. 

One of the guys I remember at CBA—he was one of the mortgage guys at CBA, and he processed our loan. He goes like, 'Okay, guys, I think your loan is okay, everything's good'. We really liked this guy and how he handled the thing until settlement happened. And we were like, 'You know what, this guy, you know, we can use him in the future'. 

What tended to happen after that, after this successful settlement, is we went to a different broker, because for us at the time, we were just trying things out. We went to another broker, and this broker just screwed up everything, honestly. He actually came back and told us, 'We were not able to borrow, the banks have declined, and this and this, and this'. I was like, 'No, this is not possible.'

It was actually based on our… I think the was our fifth property we were buying at the time. And this guy was like, 'No, you can't borrow'. And I was like, 'Nah, something's not right.' 

I was like, 'I'll contact my guy at CBA'. So I contacted this guy, [and] gave out all the documents, [and] he put in the numbers. He's like, 'Moses, you guys are good; you're good. You've got enough savings, you got enough money in your account, you got enough for paying this, and this ,and this.' And when he put into the system, everything came green. 

And I'm like, 'So what did this other guy do?' Then later on, I came to learn what he had actually done. That's a separate story altogether.

It comes to knowing those experienced players who know how to process your loans. And it's very important. I know a lot of people go out there and say, like, 'Oh, banks are not accepting us'. And they're either going through brokers or friends or accountants, and they get blocked. There are a few things that you need to tweak here and there to be able to actually unlock your potential, and if you get the right people, you can go far. 

Jhunette Lopez:    

With the experience with your type of portfolio.

Moses Nyakeya:    

Exactly, exactly. So [with] this guy, within two days, the loan had been processed and the following week, we just told the vendors that 'You know what, this loan is going to go through, please just prepare for settlement'. 

Tyrone Shum:  

I've got to get this contact off you.

Jhunette Lopez:   

We don't know where he is at the moment, do we? 

Moses Nyakeya:  

What actually happened for us at that time is that this loan was processed and we settled and everything started to flow. And then from that day, we didn't even go to any broker. 

Anytime we found a property, and we'd really like it, we'd do our numbers, we'd contact this guy. He'd [do] the numbers because he's got the entire portfolio of us. And he'd [go], like, 'Yeah, the numbers add up, just let me know when you want to do [the] settlement'. 

We just talk to our conveyancer, the lawyer—they'd just talk to each other, and it's done. We did about like six properties just like that. To a point whereby this guy was like, 'Hey, guys, I need to learn from you. How do you do this?' We're like, 'No, we don't know anything. You're the guy who actually processes all our loans'.

Jhunette Lopez:  

How many properties at that point by then?

Moses Nyakeya:   

At that point, we were at I think, seven or eight. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

So it was fast. We were like, let's go for a drive and then we'd just buy a property. It was like, are we buying lollies? If the numbers stacked up. And then at that point, I was pursuing my overseas opportunity and Moses said, 'Okay, what do we want to achieve for our portfolio before we go overseas?' And of course, I just throw out a number: 10. 

And so, you know, when you put it out to the universe, and you're going to work hard for it, so by the time we left for Dubai, we were at 10 properties, I would say. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

Yeah.

Reflecting on the early advice received, Nyakeya contemplates the path to retirement through property ownership, weighing the options of leveraging rental income and property appreciation to secure a comfortable future. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

I was just going to say one thing [about] the advice that we were given at the start of the property journey was that you get four properties fully paid off and [then] you can retire. If you do the numbers… I don't know. 

At the time, rental fees were for a property on average [was], say, between $400,000 to $500,000. If you get four of them, that is between $1,600 to $2,000 a week, and you count your tax and everything, you'd be having enough money to live on with family comfortably with no issues. 

So in the back of our mind, we were actually thinking about that and saying, like, 'We want to talk about property, okay, this is our goal, you want to be able to fully own, not mortgage, own'. They're under your name; no one comes to claim it. And you're getting your rental, and that's what's keeping you going. And you can retire comfortably [when] you do that.

So in the back of our mind, we're thinking like, 'You know what? Getting up to 10 is nice, but you need to start to plan on how you're actually going to make sure that you know what…'' Because you can't have all of them. I know, because the amount of money you're talking about is quite huge. 

So you're sort of talking about how do you leverage the work, because, of course you're earning from your work and the rent that you're getting. How do you leverage that to try and pay off some of them?

And I guess that's the goal. The goal is to try to leverage, pay some of them off, and then once you pay some of them off, maybe some of them you might need to sell them because some of them are not performing as well as others, so you might need to look at what are those non-performing properties and how do you handle them? 

Very interesting, actually, back to Queensland—property prices were much lower than New South Wales and Victoria. 

Tyrone Shum:  

That's right. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

But what has happened is, since then, I was actually looking at the numbers just last week— not last week actually; I started to look at it at the start of the year. But coming up to last week, if you look at the numbers, [with] Queensland overall, the numbers have actually gone up. Those $200,000 properties are right now at about $350,000 [to] $400,000, and in some areas, depending on which area, they're actually up to $500,000. 

Looking at them, you [would think], 'Hang on, if they've appreciated this much, if you sell them now, then…' —because if you think about the loan that maybe you bought it at $200,000, let's say, seven to eight years ago, the loan amount will be in the one-hundreds. But if the property is now worth, say, $350,000 [or] $400,000, that's a very very good appreciation.

And if you're getting the rent, you're thinking, 'Do I sell this property, or do I just hold on to it and keep on having that appreciation?' It starts to become that debate. And yes, it's possible you can actually maybe sell that property, or keep it and use another property that is maybe not performing to pay off that loan, and then now you can actually keep it. 

So again, property actually appreciates. 

Tyrone Shum:  

Navigating the tumultuous waves of the stock market taught Nyakeya the invaluable lesson of stability and long-lasting growth found in property investments, where the winds of fortune blow with a steadier hand. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

The beauty about property… And just one of the questions I saw in that kind of guideline, was around: Have you ever tried to invest[in other places? I did. I tell you, I did share trading early… just before the financial crash in 2007 [and/or] 2008. And I lost a lot of money, I did. I did lose a lot of money. But one of the things I learnt at the time was that with share markets, you have to be on every day. Actually, I used to do it. I [would] wake up every morning looking at the share market. 

So if I'm seeing Dow Jones has lost overnight, it means in Australia the ASX is going to be selling off the next day. So I need to be the first one either to sell off the early morning, because by the end of the day, you will find that the numbers are just like you're losing about maybe $3,000 or $4,000 during that day, because the share market somewhere just lost [dropped], maybe the Dow Jones or the FTSE 100 went down or the Japanese one went down. 

You know, something happens somewhere and something just goes down. And I was actually losing money like that. 

I'd say it's different with property. Even if… We talked about property prices going down. Essentially, if you actually look at the numbers, they actually don't really go down. Unless you actually sell it on that day when they're saying like property prices dropped 1% or 2%. But what is that compared to… Let's say, your property is worth $700,000. One per cent of $700,000—  how much is that? A couple of thousand dollars? 

Tyrone Shum:   

Yeah, yeah. $7,000. Why would you sell? 

Moses Nyakeya:   

Exactly. So you just hold on to that. And over a period of time, we know that property in Australia, in general terms, it doubles every 10 years. So if you hold on to something for 10 years, you can look it, again, going back to Southwestern Sydney where properties were going for $350,000 [for a] 500-square metre land, four-bedroom house, [or being] $380,000 at that time. Right now, those houses at $1.2 million to $1.3 million.

Tyrone Shum:    

Navigating the complexities of international finance, they find themselves facing obstacles in borrowing and investing while based in Dubai, promoting strategic adjustments to manage their financial goals. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Being in Dubai has put the brakes on. It's hard to borrow, and we've actually had to use brokers not even based in Australia because no one could help us. We went through like four different brokers direct with banks, and they could not refinance our loans when interest rates were skyrocketing. 

We ended up using an Aussie based in Singapore [who] was able to assist. But from a buying capacity, it's just been put on hold because, I don't know, they don't recognise our earnings; the dirhams doesn't look very favourable when we're trying to borrow. 

Tyrone Shum:  

Wow. Okay, I didn't realise that.

Moses Nyakeya:  

Yeah, Australian banks can see the US dollar. If you earn in USD… 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Singapore [dollars].

Moses Nyakeya:  

[Or] British pound… 

Tyrone Shum:  

They're so much higher though.

Moses Nyakeya:   

They consider those currencies, but anything other than that, it's very, very, very hard. You really need to get a broker or somebody that really understands the situation to be able to do the conversions and be able to get you a loan. So currently, we've actually taken it a little bit slow. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Yeah, its okay. 

Moses Nyakeya:   

It's okay. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Yeah, the advantage of what you're doing is your earning capacity is great. So you could use that cash if you wish to, to pay down your loans, and therefore reduce your debt. And then, you know, you have a nice cash flow coming through. So it's very positive in the position you're in.

Jhunette Lopez:  

Yeah, so the journey is just a little bit different. We would love to buy again. Like I said, it becomes a drug like when we were going that fast. And like I said, I throw a number up in the air, and then we just get it. It's quite exhilarating. 

But for now, without being able to buy now, it's one of those things and trying to think about what we do with that extra ability of earning in Dubai, and how we can potentially bring down some loans and whatnot. 

Tyrone Shum:   

Amidst the perpetual challenges of property management and renovation, both navigate a tumultuous journey, discerning the gems from the duds in their team of agents, brokers, and tradies. 

Moses Nyakeya:    

Challenges are always there, right? So with the journey, I think part of the challenge, as I spoke about, is the financing part. So, like with refinancing as well, sometimes you can hit the brick wall when the interest rates are going up, and it [takes] longer to find a bank that is willing to actually refinance your loan. I think that's, for me, the biggest challenge because we actually do the numbers and the savings that we can actually make by refinancing, because our portfolio is slightly big. 

So the numbers are actually staggering when it comes to interest rate hikes and stuff. Any reserves that you have just gets depleted just within a couple months. That's one of the challenges. 

The other challenge, I think, is managing these properties. Obviously, they are with agents, but from time to time, you find all sorts of agents actually. We found a situation whereby an agent never actually looked after the property…

Jhunette Lopez:  

The council rates, for like two years.

Moses Nyakeya:   

Two or three years. 

Eventually, the council contacted [indiscernible], and they're like, 'You have a hold', and are chasing up things. And you're like, 'Hang on, how did this happen?' Well, when you dig it up, you find agents just being a bit lax, and maybe there were some changes in the agency that they never told you [about]; maybe they were sold off and things like that. So that has actually been quite challenging in that aspect, you know, the managing of the property. 

However, we do have some great agents that actually manage some of the properties, whereby you know that this agent is on top of everything, and you're never ever worried about what's happening. But there [are] a few that we have to follow up from time to time to try and find out. 

The other this is… some challenges are around… We found that, again, it's also around the management of these properties, whereby the agency managing it, you have your tenants, all right. Over time, obviously, these properties need repairs; they need these kinds of things. But we've had situations where we've had to renovate some of the properties. And obviously, having gone through quite a number of self-renovation classes.

Tyrone Shum:    

You decided to go do it yourself. 

We have done a few of those, [learning from] some of the leading renovators in Sydney. We've gone to some of their classes and got enough few skills from them. So we decided to do some of them by ourselves. 

So we've actually gone and done an entire property, either putting on a brand new kitchen, painting the whole place, a brand new bathroom, floors, and everything. So we've done all that. 

Honestly, that's a very very challenging time. And very stressful, I would say, because especially when you're working with tradies, obviously, you know, you just have to look for the right one. Sometimes they come, sometimes they don't come, and sometimes they just do all sorts of things. It's very challenging, especially trying to manage them to actually deliver and get the quality of work that you actually need. 

Sometimes you're lucky; you actually get a really good tradie to help you do various things, you know, your electrician, your plumber, your tiler, and all that kind of stuff. But in some cases, you're painter. But in some cases, you just get some dodgy ones. Honestly, I have had some really really really dodgy ones. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Nyakeya recounts a disheartening experience with a tradesman whose lack of professional and dedication underscored the importance of vetting and selecting reliable individuals for their property projects. 

We found that with this… Airtasker, where you put in your job, and then somebody just says, 'Yeah, I can do it'. I've had a situation where somebody came— honestly, this guy, he may have been a tradie, but he's a guy who's just wasted his life, and all that he wanted was money to go and buy some cigarettes and some alcohol. 

He comes in with these tools and everything, but after an hour, he's like, 'Hey, I'm going to have a break'. Man, the guy disappears, comes back, and you can smell alcohol on his breath. And it has happened, and at one point, I had to tell the guy, 'I'm sorry, you know what, I'm just going to pay you, let's finish this, thank you so so much. It's just you can't do this'. 

You get all these challenges, but you know, it's part of the experience, right? And you learn from it. It also helps you identify people or companies that you can actually work with. I look at it and I'm saying, 'You know what, it's actually a good experience; you get exposed, and eventually, you actually have a line of teams and people'.

Jhunette Lopez:   

Agents, brokers, tradies.

Moses Nyakeya:  

And the good thing, actually, with this experience, straight away, like, a broker will come and start to tell me stuff, and I'm like, 'Dude, I don't think you know your stuff, I'm sorry'. 

We've actually had to tell some of them that, like, 'I'm sorry, we don't think you know what you're doing; you're struggling. If I can already tell that you're struggling, I don't think you can help me'. So it actually helps us to, you know, knock out [and] get rid of people we don't think that are going to be very helpful in our journey. 

Tyrone Shum:    

Reflecting on their journey, Lopez acknowledges her tendency to be cautious, wishing she had been more daring, while Nyakeya emphasises the importance of embracing boldness in their property investment endeavours, despite contentment with their current achievements. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

To me, I would say, 'Be more ballsy'. I'm probably the handbrake. Make a calculated risk and go hand-hand-foot-foot deep. Yeah, be a little bit more ballsy, because I am still now still the handbrake.

Moses Nyakeya:  

Yeah, I'm like, 'Go, go, go'. And she's like, 'Oh, no, no, let's not do that'. 

I think 10 years ago, I would [have been] saying… In hindsight, actually, [indiscernible], you know what, there [are] a lot of things that I would have done. But at the same time, you're like, you know what, 10 years ago, I would have said, 'Let's be more open and go full throttle without holding [back]' because, I think, maybe that [could have taken] us far, but still, we're quite happy where we are right now. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Yeah. 

Moses Nyakeya:  

Very, very happy where we are right now.

Tyrone Shum:    

Well, one last question for you is how much of your success do you think has been due to intelligence, hard work, and skill? Or how much do you think has been due to luck? 

Jhunette Lopez:   

Oh, I don't know.

Moses Nyakeya:  

Okay, so if you ask me, I think from my perspective, it's all been hard work. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

Yeah.

Moses Nyakeya:  

Of course, you know, in life there is luck; you can't discount that. 

Jhunette Lopez:   

But lucky properties or good properties…?

Moses Nyakeya:    

Yeah, and in some cases, we've missed out [on] some properties which we were thinking like, 'We should have locked this one in', but for some reason, we missed it out. 

There's a property that even up to now I still beat myself [up for] why I didn't get it. I still beat myself [for] why I didn't get it. It was one [of those moments] where you go like, 'Oh the market is a bit slow. I don't know…' But later on, I knew deep down, I knew that we needed to get this, but I was more like, 'Let's see, let's see, let's see'. But, of course, with time, you find that you missed that opportunity. 

Actually, there's a book. It's called 'The Richest Man in Babylon’. It's a very ancient book. I don't know whether you've heard about it. It's about personal finance and stuff. There's a story in there; it's a parable rather, which talks about this guy who's selling some animals and stock at the gate of Babylon. 

It's late evening, and they say to this other guy, like, 'Hey, you know, you can buy my stock', and the guy is like, 'Nah, man, it's a little bit late, you know, I can't see them properly. I don't know how they look like.' And then he goes, like, 'Why don't we catch up in the morning, and have a good view of what you've got, and then I'll buy it.' 

He goes, and then some other guy just comes and buys it off. So in the morning, when this guy comes back, he's like, 'No, I sold it off'. Then later on, when he's actually seen what was sold off, he's like, 'I was foolish, I should have bought that'. 

So I always look at that and I'm like, 'When the opportunity is there, take it. You don't have to think twice'. 

Jhunette Lopez:  

Yeah, so hard work, absolutely, but then follow your gut as well. I'm a big gut person; like, I listen to that. But then I think when you've got two people, right, and then someone who's the handbrake, like it plays on that. Like he would go 100% [or] 110% and I'm like still holding it at 80%. 

It's about finding that middle ground. And with me, you just need to massage the idea and it takes time, whereas he's ready to go right away. So hard work, not so much luck, but getting educated. That's probably the…

I think for us, that's one of the biggest things: Getting educated and knowing what you need to do to be able to get to that. And, you know, providing that advice to people who [are] actually new in the property investment area and saying, 'You need to look out for this and that'. So that education is very, very important. 

Also, with education comes experience, right? You go through these things, and then experience checks in. And all these things—I think they're all building blocks. They build onto something that you're in a position of having control of what's actually happening around, and you continue building on that.

Thank you to Jhunette and Moses, our guests on this episode of Property Investory.