Keywords for this episode: Safety, Consultant, Safety and Health, Adjunct Professor, Sheldon, Primus, Linda Martin, PhD, EHS, Industrial Hygiene, Certified Safety Professional, BCSP, ASSP, LinkedIn, Marketing, Promotion, Entrepreneurship, Business Owners, Safety FM, Business Ownership


[00:00:00] spk_0: This is Sheldon Primus, the host of the safety consultant podcast. During this time, we've all been tightening our belts because of Cove in 19. I have been as well. Recently. I found cost effective alternative to some of the services and programs that I was using, such as email, marketing, hosting services and even one of my favorites. Teachable Visit Sheldon Prima's dot com back slash resource is for special offers to help you reduce your business overhead. If you're hosting a podcast or one of host the podcast, then visit Sheldon. Primacy. Com. Backslash hosting for a knockout deal Don't give UP on your dream Get smarter on the back end of your business. This

[00:00:52] spk_1: episode is powered by Safety

[00:00:54] spk_0: FM. Welcome to the safety consultant podcast. I am your host, Sheldon Primers on. And, uh, this is the show where I teach you the business behind being a safety consultant. This'll week. We have got a serious street. Been talking to Linda Martin, you that are on Facebook and linked in all mostly linked in. You probably got a whole bunch of Linda Martin lately and which has been awesome. She's been talking about the safety struggle her new podcast in the way that she has been presenting it. Everyone's just like I gotta gotta find out whose first doing this. And then after she announced that she is the one doing it No, I was like, Oh, yeah, Even before she announced I had to find out who it waas e actually like, sent the little notification Thio be part of the guest. And I believe, like, right on there I said, All right, you got me. I don't know who you are, but you got me e want to be part of this and eso It was really also knowing that Hey, it was Linda Martin. So I only met Linda just briefly, um, online a few times before I even knew, you know about her dynamic nous So after we talk doesn't like it, right way got to do this. And I wanted to have her on the show because I believe her struggles. And I like using that term since she's got us thinking about safety struggles, but just the way that she approaches everything in life. She's a constant giver, and she's been in all lengths and just like everything that you have to do and safety and health. She's been there and then truly, uh, she's a lifelong learner as a doctor, but also, she keeps giving back to the community in in different ways. Keep giving back as an adjunct, she keeps giving back. As you know, in her past, she was actually very involved with B. C S P in the high level as well as And that's for Board of certified safety specialist professionals. Yes, Board is sort of fight safety professionals and then also the American Society of Safety Professionals. Eso I truly, truly think that this is an episode that you guys are gonna just have a blast with. We talk about everything. I mean, we just go through the gamut. So I just want you to sit back and just just listen to you're gonna have a good time. Like I did talking and listening to Linda Martin. All right, I'll see you right after this quick word from our sponsors.

[00:03:52] spk_1: We Oh, do you want to be a safety consultant? Listen to Dr J. Allen of safety FM give his experience after taking the safety consultant blueprint course. I have actually done research on different consultants and looked at different consulting courses and so on. There is a pretty fancy, very expensive consulting course that is out there. I have actually purchased the consulting course was interested in. It has good information. Don't get me wrong, But you have a consulting course that really drives people onto focusing on safety and how to become a safety consultant. I will tell you on your particular course, there was better information in that particular regards thin the other consulting course. There was more of a generalist form, but I figured I felt like I got more information out of yours on your giving. People direct half on what to do, step by step. But I really think that you have a genuine good product there that can really assess people if they're interested in becoming a safety consultant. Register for the safety consultant blueprint at w w w dot safety consultant blueprint dot com Enter code podcast for a special discount

[00:05:08] spk_0: s Oh, my name is Linda Martin, and you know, I

[00:05:15] spk_1: don't know if I have a

[00:05:16] spk_0: company. I do a lot of things. Um, right now I'm working as Thehyperfix air of the safety programs at Capital Technology University. And I adjunct another couple places. And I'm doing, like, a bunch of different side things. A bunch of different side things. Like what? Well, so today I posted a job on linked in for a company that just lost their safety director. And I never thought I'd be in the recruiting business, But apparently they think I confined them somebody great. So I'm not opposed to doing that. So I'm in the In the meantime, while they don't have a safety director, I'm helping them out with that, and I'm gonna find them somebody amazing. So I'm doing that. I'm doing a little bit of writing, Um, a little bit of consulting, which is right up your alley. Yo. Yeah. So that is my alley. I

[00:06:18] spk_1: really have a

[00:06:19] spk_0: hard time saying no. Shelton. Alright, a million dollars. Can I have it? Well, if I had a million dollars, I might share it with you because I'm one of those kind of people. But, um, when it comes to work, and when it comes to interesting work, I really have a hard time doing a hard stop. Do you find that that hard time is saying no leads to people manipulating you or leads to where you have such a dedication to making sure you follow through that you are just wore out. Eso is there a little bit of both? Or I don't want to lead the witness in any way. But what does that saying? No. How does that result in your lifestyle? Down? Oh man, You know, I actually I say I don't say no, but I say no more than I ever did now, but I still say yes a lot of the time. So instead of saying yes 100% of the time, I say yes, 75% of the time, but in in most of the time, it affects my family. And it affects my time with my family, which is is not a good thing. It affects relationships, etcetera. Um, but if I say yes to something, I'm all in. And so you know, for example, with this finding a safety director for somebody, I am going to do the best job that I can dio to find them the best person and I won't stop until I dio So there's a little bit of dedication. But there's, um I find a lot of things interesting in life, like, you know, like you guys doing podcasting. And so, you know, I see it is interesting. I see you doing good work. And I think that I could do good work, too. And so I'm all in answer to your question. Yeah, I I don't know. Maybe I was a part of me, wanted to hear that you're you're the internal martyr and that it makes really good. You know, something really get to say if there's always some struggle and I'm using your words, their struggle, that there's always something going on which in turn can also be feeding. Some people are saying, you know, I'm the martyr. Look at me. Give me some attention. I'm affecting that from you. But I just you

[00:08:42] spk_1: know that. You know, that's actually that's actually a

[00:08:45] spk_0: really good way to put it. Um, you know, if I think about it, I think sometimes I take things on because, um, there is that internal part of me that says I have to doom or I have to achieve mawr. Um, I don't know if it's a sense of wanting to be worthy of people's praise. I think sometimes I have a little bit of Andi. I'm sure you know this in the training business in the consulting business have a little bit of the imposter syndrome. So when I see myself, um you know, uh, people saying, Oh, you know, Linda Martin this and Linda Martin that and I think to myself, I think you wait this London Martin like, Wait, this one, um And so there is a little bit of that internal struggle with myself that I feel like I have to live up to people's expectations of how they see me and, you know, I don't know my my lens. Maybe off their lens, maybe off. I think my tendency is to think that other people's lenses off of me and that I'm human. And, um, sometimes I don't let myself be human. Um, but I'm trying. What is that? Why is that? Um, e

[00:10:07] spk_1: don't know.

[00:10:08] spk_0: I mean what we're This is a psychology session. We're gonna go back to my childhood. Yeah, Yeah, Why not? Sure. I'll take you back to my childhood E. That's what stuff that nobody else has, right? E I think some of that that drive and that feeling of being an imposter goes back to my childhood. I think I was the middle child, and so there was a lot of attention on what my sister was doing. There was a lot of tension on my, my what my father was doing. I came from a home where my father wasn't really present. And so the three of us vied from my mother's time and my grandmother's time. And so, you know, I always felt like I didn't want to disappoint them. Eso In doing so, I took on this drive to succeed this drive to like, you know, be good at everything And, you know, probably within the last year or so, I've learned that it's okay not to be, ah, 100% it at everything. Sometimes it's okay to be 75%. Sometimes it's even okay to be 50%. It just depends on what you're doing, right, and it's taken me a long time to do that. And it has taken me, um, an awakening from my spouse saying This is you know, you just you can't do that. You'll kill yourself if you continue Thio. Drive yourself into the ground. Well, how long can your your wife been married? We've been married for a man. Thank you. Ask me that. I'm not going to know it. Way got married in 2011. We got married in 2011. So we've been married for nine years, but we've been together since 2008. Um, and, you know, probably within the last year we've had, you know? I mean, every couple, every couple goes through rough times, I think. I mean, I think if you tell people you don't, then you're not applying. Yeah, you're not. You're not being truthful, right? And I'll just put it right out there. We went through a terrible time in the last year, and, you know, Kobe was hard on everybody, you know, And we went through the terrible time, and then we went into Cove s. Oh, so you know, you're stuck in one place, you can't go out, right? But, you know, I mean, it

[00:12:39] spk_1: made my

[00:12:39] spk_0: family stronger, and I think I'm probably way in a better place now than I ever have been. And I think that's what brings me to ah lot of the awakening that I've had in the last six months to a year about who I am and what I believe and who I'm going to stand up for and who you know who doesn't matter anymore s Oh, I don't know. That sounds kind of callous, but, um, I think you put your time and energy where it matters the most. And I'm trying to do that. I mean, e think I'm trying to atone for past things and I'm trying to move forward, especially in the profession, in a positive way. Yeah, and it's truly my wife and I 23 years. You know, two kids that air old now or older. Eso I've seen the ups and downs and she spent actually on my interview. I've interviewed her twice since. She's been a co, uh, my co host twice. So we've we've come a long way in certain areas, so there are peaks and valleys, especially when you've been around. And you you go through things together over the years. And from what I'm hearing, uh, it seems like a redemption story in a way for you, So that always begs to see redeeming from one and you don't have to tell me redeeming for a lot on a personal level. But I just mean on the safety side I've seen or at least heard off the immense just depth of things that you've been involved in in your career. And was there a point in that that you seem like you were phoning it in that you needed to atone for it? Or is it just something else that may have been, uh, the key, Thio, even the safety struggle podcast that you're doing now? Yeah. So I mean, uh, I don't think it's any secret that I spent six years in service Thio volunteering in organizations. Um, I think people can go on Google and they can find out whatever they need to find out about me. You can look on my length and you can, you know, you can creep me, creep me here and there and everywhere. Um, you know, I don't think I've ever phoned anything, and I've always tried to do my best, right. Um I think I think like I said earlier, that the realization was sometimes your best is 75% and sometimes it's 50% right I mean, nobody can operate on the 100 all the time, but as far as you know, is faras redemption goes I think what I'm finding now is all that hard work that I put in, You know, I'm gonna say pre mid April mid mid May of this year, um has led up Thio me, really taking a look at where I can put my my most my best, best energy and most energy. And, you know, I'm I'm good at academia, and so I'm fine in academia, and I'm I'm good at writing, and I'm good at teaching, and I'm good at mentoring. And this is something you and I talked about, um, on a earlier note when you came on my podcast that, you know, I'm putting a lot more energy into walking the walk Instead of being the face of safety or the face of an organization. I'm actually answering emails and getting down to the nitty gritty with people and, you know, trying trying to help everyone. And it's certainly, you know, you can't help everyone, but you know, when somebody comes to you and they ask you a simple question about how to get ahead in the safety field. That's mentoring, right? The responses, mentoring and being honest about that response instead of saying, yeah, you need X Y Z or you're nothing, Um, that on your side on my side that z Sorry about that. You

[00:17:00] spk_1: know, I don't know if

[00:17:01] spk_0: it's redemption, but but on a personal note, I think I've found that there are places where I could put my energy that I can really make a difference. And, um, speaking, my truth is a place where I could make a difference. Yeah, and that's awesome, because truly, there's so many people that look up to, uh, consultants or look up to people who now, in our safety world, we've, you know, truly started to see safety celebrities, if you will. And that's what's happening in our little linked in Facebook, um, social media circles. All of a sudden, we've got safety celebrities, and, uh, and I've got victim of that in some ways. And now, with the podcasting going wild and thanks, Thio J. Allen and Safety FM now, we've actually had networks that that truly is creating safety celebrities. I get calls from people sometimes or even emails or Arlington, where they are desperate for finding something that is going to help them. Either get a job or Thio launch a business or something like that, and I'm hearing you're getting that as well. So it seems like it is. It's almost like our duty. Is that the way you're feeling? It's like our duty toe to pull them up. Well, I mean, it's always our duty, right? Its's. So even if I'm at one or two years of experience, it's your duty to pull up that person that just started. So yes, it's our duty. I think, um, you know, I've come to a point in my career that, um, I've done a lot of things I could give good advice. I'm not so good at taking advice, but I think I give pretty good advice. I sure people up, I I think the biggest thing we could tell people is that there's no magic bullet for anybody. And, um, you know, I I'm getting to know you a little bit that you probably would say the same thing that you know, it just It just depends, right? Your path just depends. And I wish I wish I had the magic bullet. Everybody's magic bullet Because so many people are hurting right now with, you know, being unemployed and really trying to get into safety. And they can't. Yeah, I know. For for just my point of view, I could only say what I'm feeling in my point of view. But every time I get those emails or I get those messages, uh, yes, I get a little cynical side of me, to be honest, if I'm really honest with myself to say, you know, is this person free or is it bullshit or you know what's going on here with and then after that? And the reason why is because I even had someone from, you know, Lincoln being international. I had someone sent me a letter in an email, just basically a LinkedIn message saying, uh, my Children need food. Can you send us the money? And And I was like, Well, I found where they were in it was an African nation. So I found where they were found what was the closest person on our organization that they could go for for like, immediate, you know, go here. It would provide some assistance, right? So I did that. And then, um later on, they sent, like, a go fund me. So I was like, All right, well, I did to go fun being I put, you know, some significant money in there, uh, figuring that hopefully will help him out a little. And then I got another message later on saying, um, it was worded something like Daddy as's faras or ast faras the the introduction. And then even after the wording, I was like, Hold on E got two kids and that's your daddy. I ain't your daddy Have never been asked for money. Yeah. Don't start this for me, Sheldon. I've never been asked for money. Um, but you don't go fun to me, is you do go fund me for everything in some cases. So I figured Alright, well, let me do this. And after that, I really started getting cynical, so I don't wanna wish that on you in any way. But how do you approach when you get those messages and you get that where someone needs help in your thinking? Is this in my wheelhouse, or is this not eso? You know, that's a really good That's a really good segue to consulting, right? Because in consulting you get a ton of people that call you, and they say, Can you write? And as a consultant and I used to say this when I was younger, when I was a younger consultant, I would say yes, I can on Then I would. And then I would hang up. And I would say, Can I just call you back and a little bit? And I would hang up the phone and I would phone a friend, right? Because somebody somebody is going to know how to do X y Z or they're gonna help you. Um, but one of the things that I think we need to be truthful about with ourselves, especially in safety, and I'll use Cove It is an example, especially in safety, that there are things that are not in our wheelhouse. And we need to be honest about those and we need to hire a consultant. We need to hire, um ah, friend who knows what they're doing. We need to hire a company. We need to whatever. And I said, you know, using Cove, it is an example. One of the things that really irked the Can I say a swear word? Say, one of the things George Carlin list if you want. Awesome. I know that list, by the way. Um, but one of the the things that really irked the shit out of May when, um, cove it started rising in March, was that everybody? Everybody was all of a sudden Covad expert. Everybody was, you know, im safety. I can handle this. They had Kobe plans. They had back toe work plans. They had out of work plans, you know, even down to organizations that were fronting that they were going to give Webinars on co vid. And I'm like, Well, hold up there, Right? I mean, I got called and somebody wanted a quote for one of the industry rags and said, you know, give us a quote on Cove it. And I said, I absolutely will not do that, You know, um, I an industrial hygienist. Yes, absolutely. You know, do I have a certified safety professional credential? Yes. And my covert expert. No, I'm not. There are a bunch of expert things. I'm not right. And so, um, Thio kind of wrap back to your question like you know when these people ask me for help with their careers or with certain topics. If I can answer, I do answer. I you know, I try to try to get to. Everybody may take me a week, but I get to everybody, the ones who are really serious about really connecting. They connect with me, right? They'll write back and they'll have other questions. Or, you know, some people just say thanks and they move on. And eso I've actually cultivated some really good relationships from those reach outs e I have, you know, just for example, I have a young man that's in Texas that you know, he wants to work internationally. And I have ah, graduate student who works for Kuwait Oil, and he's working internationally. So I hooked them up, and he's also studying for a certification. And you know, e kind of said, there's a bunch of stuff out there to study, and every once in a while I text him e se. How you doing, and that doesn't that doesn't take a whole lot of energy or effort, but you know, it means a lot to them to, and it means a ton I mean, like, I just was thinking about him one day thinking, Oh, I wonder if he's studying. I wonder if he connected and I texted him and the response was like, Well, e can't even believe, Linda, that you remember to text me, you know, I mean, I'm not writing it down or anything, but if it occurs, if it occurs to you that you could help somebody if it occurs to you that reaching out and sending you know, a one line text or whatever is gonna help somebody get a boost, Theun, do it. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you're on a that that self actualization pyramid, the very top on Maslow's pyramid there. Oh, no. When you're on the top of the period pyramid, there's there's a big chance that you could be pushed off. So let's let's say I'm kind of I'm in that hopefully in that triangle I don't wanna be on the top. Alright, Alright, So bump you down then. Okay. Well, some people that want to knock me off Thio now you have along the way amassed a great deal of credentialing behind you. Was this more of the B F. Skinner uh, we're not the operate conditioning, but but his idea of motivation where it was intrinsic versus extrinsic. So was some of your motivation extrinsic because you needed a job or you needed something else in this degree or the certifications gonna help you? Or was it intrinsic saying, Hey, I'm gonna feel so much better about myself or this is a goal I have to reach by the certain age or whatever it is for you to to check off a little. It's now I'm feeling good about myself. A little list that you may be having their So what was your motivations along the way? Oh, man, I always find something else that I could be doing after the thing that I finished, right. So maybe I'm broken in that respect. Um, e will say that at least in the safety world, when I was transitioning into, like, a full time safety director role, Um, I did figure that I would need a master's degree in safety because my undergraduates in geology and I have an MBA which are great for consulting. Andi, I've learned a lot along the way. So I went masters degree, a S P C s P C H, which gave me a way more of a jump as a consultant than the A s P C s P ever did. Um, And then, you know, I mean, I think I'm somebody who just likes to take tests, but it gets really expensive carrying all those credentials. And, um, you really, you know, just my opinion. You really don't need all those things. And so especially in the time when, um, you know, you start to look at what's most important. What I think is most important at the end of this year will be a lot less credentialing. Um, a lot less professional networking in the sense of paying money for it a lot more, um, connecting on a real level because I think that that right now, that's what's important in our in our industry. Kent has seems like it. It may have a connector to what you said earlier, as far as, uh, prioritizing who still needs to be in your life and what system still need to be in your life and where you're going into future. Am I wrong in thinking that? No, I mean, absolutely not. I mean, I think I've found in the last six months even, um, who's real and who's not. Um, you know, we're goingto super detail in that, but I will just say that, you know, um, let's let's just look at the profession here, my base of friends from six months ago to now save maybe, ah, handful like, let's say five or six people are completely different. Um, people that I surround myself with now are really It's not to say that people before we're bad people, but, um, you know, when you go through any any type of trials and tribulations in your life and you come out the other side and there are people that are still there, you know, those people are true and they have your six, right? I'm not a military person, but I know who has my back. Yeah, absolutely no. Who has my back now? And I'm very, um, cognizant of people's intentions in my life and my intention, and there's and just being honest up front. So, you know, I mean, I've come to that realization in six months, and it is it is amazing to have more than five or six friends who I can count on, no matter what. Excellent. Excellent. And, uh, I found that in many different ways my wife and I, we went full time in the RV life. And when we were selling our house three years ago, you know, once my son graduated from high school were like, Alright, finally, this is what emptiness looks to us. And we had so many people, just the family as well as friends. They were like, What the hell are you guys doing? And you got a perfectly good house here and you're just selling and you're gonna go. What? Travel. And, uh, many have just fallen off the wayside because they just don't understand what our mission, our goal. We were like, Hey, we're young, We wanna live way There's trappings in this type of lifestyle for us and therefore, we wanted to travel and and experience things differently. And I believe we're going to go into an international travel a swell because because that's the next phase in our life, we feel like we're being called to that. We're we're ready. We're ready. That's I like the way you said that eso there were some people that just kind of dropped off there. And it wasn't that we weren't pursuing friendships. It was We're okay to let those things go because we felt it may have evolved. Is that kind of karimun thing? Amen. You know, and it feels good to evolve. It feels good. Thio, You know, at least I'm on my and to transition out of a role in an E. I really don't like that term that you had, like, safety. Celebrity, right? Um, where Yeah. I mean, from that role where you're always on and I I'm still kind of always on because I think people see me in a certain way. Andi, I am that person that I was for six years. Um, I think people will gnome or as we get going with the podcast and, um, a bunch of other things that I'm doing that I am that same person. And you know, I'm human also, and I think that that adds a whole whole new dimension for people to connect with me. And I hope they dio because, you know, one of the things that I've tried to cultivate, you know, for a long as I can remember, is to be honest, an ethical and true and, you know, and show people that I have integrity. And, um, you know, I'm human. Yeah. And it shows truly, uh, in our short time is learning thio to be acquaintances. It's been awesome. I can just get such a genuine feel for every time we we've talked like damn it, I like Linda more now. Last time, Doug. Like, she's just so riel e like her more than when I had to look at her face on everything, you know? I mean, thank you, Sheldon. I mean, that that means the world to me, because I really you know, I It's not that I want people toe like me. I want people to know me. Um and I want to know them, right? So? So one of the things that I'm really looking forward, Thio as my career evolves towards retirement hate to say that, but towards retirement, um, I want I want to connect with people on a riel basic level so that you know, when they walk away, they know that, you know, I've left it all on the table. I've left who I am. I've left my values my core beliefs. I've given them what I can give them. You know, I'm not sending the money on the Internet, but I've given them what I can give them, right. And I'm connecting them to the people that will take them to the next level. So if I can't answer the question or I don't have the skill set that they're looking for in orderto catapult their career in a different direction, I might send them the Sheldon promise, Or I may you know, I may send them to somebody else who has that that place that they can push forward. And I've been fortunate enough in the last several years to make those acquaintances with people in order to help others. It makes sense. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I'm like a crazy person. Well, go away, Linda Martin. Go away. No, stay. It also kind of gets me thinking of Ah, another thing. Now, maybe this could be under the struggle section. How do you transition? Had you set a boundary? Whatever you would like to call it just says this is a freebie. This is paid. And how do you transition to you know I am giving X amount of time value. And if I were to actually work out my my hourly and people that listen to the show No, that I I do give rates and everything else. So currently, uh, my hourly rate is right. A 373 25. So if I were to truly think of, I do these podcasts and then I do, you know, an hour worth of an interview if I'm doing that and then editing is, you know, editing, you know, here's the thing. I've talked my wife into doing my editing, and she did a great job on the last one. So she's hired. And so I pop popcorn and watch TV now. Excellent. Excellent. So you hire the right people? Yeah, I think you might have to subcontract and then get her in mind here. But in those cases, you're literally taking time away that you could be making money and therefore there's a delineation somewhere to you between I have to charge for this. Uh, it's only fair for my family versus I am doing this pro bono and your constant pro bono work. What? How do you What's your line uh huh. My line is closer to me now than it was before. Um, uh huh. I think what I found probably you know, 10 or so years ago when I was doing consulting full time. Um, you have to set if you're consulting, If it's a company or it's somebody who is asking you Thio go somewhere or do something or produce a work product, then that's paid. Right. Um, and there has to be a certain amount of time that you spent getting the work too. Right? So, um, for example, things person that I'm helping or this company that I'm helping sources Safety director. Um you know, I spent an hour on the phone with them discussing the specifics. But you know, when we start reviewing resumes and etcetera and really getting down to the nitty gritty of hourly work, then it's paid right. If it's a mentoring situation, Andi, it's you know, it's an email or whatever, then you know, that's a that's a freebie. I'm gonna get inundated with emails after your show. Thanks very much. But, you know, I also and this is gonna sound very e. I don't know if the words altruistic But, um when you realize that you have enough And, um, you're fortunate on One of the things that I've realized in the last six months or so is that I am super fortunate to have my family and my wife and my kids and our health and jobs Thio to bring money in and to just have more than enough for what we need. That, um, I will spend the time with people that I feel the same amount of heart being given back to May, and maybe I should be charging for my time. I'm cheaper than you. Now. I know either need to raise my rates or people things. This is the part that gets edited out or people can bring me. But you know, I really don't have a whole lot of extra time to be spending doing other people's work. And so if somebody comes to me and they have, you know, an hour or two or whatever I do now say, Look, um, if it's going to take away from the stuff that feeds my family theme on leeway, that you're going to get that time is if you're paying for it because you know if I'm if I'm If this is the time that I drink beer on the patio, you know, that's what did you say you have 3. 25. That's $325 an hour to write because I like my beer on the patio. So, um, it doesn't really answer your question. I think I think I'd give less and less of free program technical, um, advice. Because when you start to get into the advice about how somebody should run their program or, um, make tweaks to sampling etcetera, then that that's that's 100% paid because there's liability there. But if it's, you know, do you think I should go for this certification or that certification? Or do you think you think it's worth it for a degree? E. I mean, that's a conversation that I would have with the person in line at Walmart if they asked me, right? Yes, I'm a captive audience e again until they bring you up on your good name Him out of there. Yeah, I'm the same way because truly with as many students as I taught throughout my career, with the two programs that I've been teaching. I always say, and this is more of, Ah, personal time, period and I don't, you know, broadcast it too much. Just have people that listen to the podcast. But what I what I usually my rule of thumb is if it's anything like 15 minutes worth of of conversation where it's I'm not gonna have to look at anything up. Or if I do, it's not gonna be extensive. Uh, then were quick email response back. I'm good, but if now, like you said, it's truly meet consulting them, then liability comes in play. And then if I need Thio, even run that thought down where I'm gonna have toe possibly be insured for this thing, You know, I don't want my my insurance to be anywhere in jeopardy by a conversation. And truly, when I do get those calls with students and I tell them my I could give you my honest opinion. However, if we need to formalize this, I have to charge for it only because of insurance purposes. However, uh, gut feeling is this, and that's probably how I I delineate most of it. But if someone's asking for service, then I have to incline. Say, All right, this is my price for this service is really how it breaks down. E agree with that. Good good. Not not that my opinion matters. It is my opinion on Lee that that I mean, that's true. And I think, um, you figure that out as you as you have a consulting business, right? I mean, I think on the front end of when I was doing full time consulting, I gave a lot more freebies than I I should have. I think when you get more entrenched in your career and you get more experience and more credentials and more training and you know, you've been whacked a couple of times by some clients who either want more and more freebies or they don't pay you, then you find you find out your command, your head, You find out 10 or 15 years down the road that that you have to set those hard boundaries or, um, you know, you'll just get taken advantage of and and really, honestly, it's about your time. How much time do you have? You're gonna be really amazed when there's people who you have a great relationship with and you think it's an exchange of information and all of a sudden you come to the point where you say, Well, I'm gonna have to charge for this crickets way, E. Actually, you'll love this. I actually recently had I'm doing dissertation chairing for capital tax. So I've got several dissertation students, and, um, this'll is similar to a lot of universities. You get paid by the student, right? And, uh, it's not traditional in that. Usually, you when you finish the dissertation with them, a lot of universities give a lump sum. Well, this this is a paid by, um, semester. So if if the student is enrolled, I get a certain amount of pay for guiding them through the steps of their dissertation. And I had somebody called me and and say on then, this is a friend, right? And say, I need I need your help researching articles and you know, doing this, that and the other related to a dissertation when I said, Here's my price for that, you know that that's that's work. Um, and you know, in the past, I would have said it ruined a friendship, but now I would say you know. I mean, that's just the reality, right? And if somebody had said that to me, I have to look at my own self. And if somebody had said that to me, I would have said, you know, I get it, I get it, you know? And if I really wanted that help, which is time right, which is a couple hours a week or whatever, I would have paid it, or I would have said I don't have that money. So, um, but I still wanna be your friend, right? And so if if that's my response and somebody doesn't give that back to me, then it's time to let that go. Yeah. Hey, but I know you're not on the clock because a dentist, but can you just working my feelings over here? Yeah. You don't want to ever have that conversation. Yeah, I only have. I only have a couple of really, really close friends that, um you know, I would I would do consulting for free. And I think we all have those people in our lives that you know you're gonna help him, no matter what. But that's a close circle. That's a close circle very close. Excellent. Hey. Told me about your society s o the city area society. Right? That that was like a brainchild. Um, why the name? What? Why the name? Why the name? So city area is the goddess of safety? Um, it's the name of the goddess of safety and protection from harm. And the the tagline is absent in area, which is absence of injury, right? And, you know, we're not saying zero. We're not saying we're gonna attain it. We're just saying that, you know, that's the goal. And, you know, I kind of put that together because one of the things that I you know and this is this is my soapbox. Now that I've seen is that, uh that in our profession, there's been ah, 150 whatever number of years of creating a dynasty of thistles, what you need in order to be valuable. And, um, there are a lot of people who don't have all those things, and they're still great professionals. And I wanted to create something where people could go not pay 225 250 bucks a year, or whatever it is to be in a society and talk to other people were connect. Um, you know, we're on the front end of it and we have 1029 people. I think thats morning. I checked. So it's resonating. Yeah, it's resonating with people. I mean again, I'm only one person. So you know, it goes from the podcast to the society and back again. And, you know, I'm trying thio make a living Also in the in the meantime, but I think it's a really needed, uh and it's not a distraction. It za needed wedge That needs to be kind of driven into our profession to show, um that perhaps we've gone far enough down this road that we need to roll it back a little bit and start including people in a meaningful way in a meaningful way. And you know, that's not to say we should include everybody on the street. But there are a lot of people in safety that are not included in these big societies in these big certification organizations, and they need to be they need to be recognized. Yeah, and I for me, e remember going thio? I think it was I was speaking at a conference either was V P p. A or or speaking at the A S S P conference 11 of the bigger ones. I believe it was either San Antonio when they changed their name or somewhere around there. And after speaking, than I got accosted by someone who is the head of, uh I guess I could say it right. B C s B or or higher up. I shouldn't say maybe not the head, but higher up. Um and actually, it may have been I think I was. I was speaking at a SSP leadership in Chicago a few years back, and I was one of the speakers for the leadership one. And, uh, he told me, uh, something because I I asked about CSP, and I've always been flirting with CSP. Even before there was an ESP. I started in safety in 94 so it's been a while. I'm old and crusty. It's like me. Eso his words to me was, Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad you decided to go with with an accredited with an accredited body. Not like the one you have my certification, uh, cause, which is certified occupational safety specialist on the other one certificate Occupational safety manager Onley four years ago Did the other agency a SSP actually have a designation that you check off for costs? They still don't have cost em. But you could actually say this is my designation when you're actually signing up for SSP eso at that time when, uh, when the higher up on B B. C s feet told me that, you know, and it was it was delivered with disdain and that's what got me. And I was like, Oh, well, fuck you, e Exactly what went through my e? Because the way it was done, this person was male. So it wasn't me. E what? The time, period. You may actually have been there during the time period, This person that cost of me with that and I just had a visceral response that I just really it worked. Me and eso What do you say to the people that says, Well, you don't go to a dentist or you don't go to a doctor that doesn't have a degree. Why do you wanna have a safety person without a degree? Because a degree will show that you have a certain amount of proficiency and eso. What do you say to that? As opposed to someone who's ah, practitioner then actually has been doing the work. For some reason, they did not either could afford getting their degree. It wasn't, Ah, priority for them. But entering the workforce puts more of a priority for them. Uh, or whatever the myriad of reasons it is that they didn't have a degree. Uh, how do you place those two thoughts as being some worth in a safety community? That's a long question. Long. Yeah. Let me see if I could tackle that. So you threw out a lot of P words, right? Professional? Yeah. Missioner proficiency. Nice three Piece e. Feel a book coming. So proficiency right is a proficient proficiency and practitioner, right? Our action action words, right? Your perfection. That's something. Um, you're practicing something, and I would e would venture to say that the use of the word professional, at least in our industry, in our in our job classifications, because I don't wanna use professional again. Um uh, everybody defines it differently, right? Certification bodies define it differently than organizations. As you said Now, all of a sudden costs and costs M. R. Um, you get to mark them off and become dubbed a knight of the round table or whatever they w right. But there are a lot of ways to be proficient in a good practitioner, and I would rather have somebody that has had some boots on the ground and experience any day now. That doesn't mean that they can't have a degree and be proficient. But just having agree degree doesn't make you proficient, right? Neither does taking a course for a week. That doesn't make you proficient. Your actual practice of those skills makes you proficient. Which says to me, experience is probably the most important once you get the other things right. So having a degree with no experience, not good having a certification course not good having a certification without experience? Not good. You actually have to have, um, you know, some mentored experience or some actual experience in the field toe in my mind to be a good practicing professional. Now, um, do you want do you wanna ask me about, um, the rebranding of everything lately that that's that seems to be the theme. The way of the wild in the safety profession is everybody's redoing their logo and re upping their offerings. And I think a lot of it rings hollow. Um, because the execution of those things a t least in my mind again, just my opinion, Um, it rings hollow in that, um it's not getting to the core issue, which is inclusion on that basic level. Right. Um, and I also think sometimes the inclusion part is more certs, uh, adding in more people that can pay more money to the organization and not so much mawr value again. All my all, just all my opinions right there, all my personal opinions and and, you know, that's what I'm trying to get with sectarian society is that I'm not asking you to pay a fee. I just I just wanna be your friend. You know, I just want everybody to be friends, and I want them to learn from each other. And yes, you could do it in these big organizations. And yes, you can do it by networking in that way, but it's gonna cost you some money on That's just to get in the door. Yeah, that's just my opinion. Yeah. Todo toe fall in my value system as well. And the reason why is because I do see people looking to get in to safety and the barrier of entry keeps, uh, it makes it so that they can't get into it. And for me, I think experienced. Well, let's let's give you my patented answer. Whenever anyone tells me, you know, what designation should I get? First and foremost, I say, Go get your education. You know, So I'm not I'm not just going to say education doesn't mean anything for someone that holds a bachelor's and a master's, you know, you've got a doctorate, so you know, I'm not gonna say education doesn't mean anything, But, you know, what I'm saying is, if you're if all things were equal, I would say education first, because education shows that you've had a certain amount of years that you were dedicated to your actual degree, that you got out of that so that would probably hold more weight first and then the certification route. And then along the way, you should be getting experience somehow some way while you're getting your schooling. And that's really what I would I would say, the preference would be, however, then you. You know, life happens on life happens where, you know, some people go back. I had to go back to school for my degrees. And, uh, e did it backwards so that in those cases, you know, I still had degree, but if I chose not to, that still doesn't mean I wasn't qualified. Yeah, you know, good practitioner. Exactly. Man. That's That's my I really don't want to get off. Like like I'm bashing education. I believe in education. No, that's why I'm a adjunct instructor. E

[00:56:13] spk_1: mean, I believe in

[00:56:14] spk_0: education too. But I will say this. I think, um, education takes many forms, right? There are a lot of people that come up in the trades, and they get their education through, um, apprenticeships, which sometimes are $4500 of actual prentice in the seat time Thio become whatever they're gonna become right. And so that's education. Right? Um, taking a course for a week is education. Um, taking several courses over time to get a certificate is education. And sometimes that's all people can afford or have time for with their busy schedules. But education is not always a degree and yes, I mean, I'm in the business of helping people get their degrees, but it's not for everybody. And it z financially, it's not for everybody. And so there has to be a path, right? Very powerful. They're thankful them land is just mic drop. Anybody here? That mike Rough clunk, Clunk eso Anything like the rial? Linda Martin, the rial. Linda Martin. Really? All right, now we're spelling that are e l R e a l capital. Our capital e capital, a capital L. A really Linda. I was thinking, you know, more cow Bell. I'm workout, though any time I'm a drummer. So any time I could add cow bill, I just go nuts. I'm like, Yes, yes, absolutely. E Can you ring me in on this episode with the cow bell? Yeah, E. Who is it? Is it William Dafoe? I need more cow bell. Oh, yeah, Yeah. Uh, yeah, Well, Carol, with the cowbells e. Look that up. I am I actually think I may have a cow bell on my board. So if I have when I think I might just do it just gets, um, Cow Bell in there to the mic drop at the certain point. Excellent. Alright, give me anything that you need to plug. Give me it all. I'm already Oh, man. Okay, so we talked a little bit about the city area society. Um, that's on Lincoln. And it's also at, uh www city area, society dot com And, uh, the safety struggle, which is on Apple iTunes, podcasts and Spotify and also on the Web page at www safety struggle dot com and also on Lincoln make a lot of posts on LinkedIn. And when is when is your When is this gonna come out? Is this gonna come out in the next week or a couple of weeks? Telling you the truth? It's probably be, I believe two weeks. We might be in the two week mark. Alright, we'll be. We'll be in the thick of it with the safety struggle by then. So when you're watching officially, I'm officially launching on September 16th. But I put on on Facebook today that if people keep their eyes peeled, thio linked in and subscribe to podcasts and Spotify and all those different places that I may drop something early. Oh, but I'm not gonna tell you when you're marketing your marketing gave me his own point girl. When a Martin. Thank you so much for being part of the safety consultant podcast. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much, Sheldon. Promise and stay tuned. I think we I think I see big things for you and I together. Yeah, I'm in. Come on. Me? I'm in. Awesome. All right, Have a great rest of your day. All right. See you later, buddy. All right. Bye bye. Away. Right. Well, welcome back. How was Linda Martin? Everybody? Linda, Pardon anybody. Linda Martin. Hello, Cleveland. A ticket? We had fun. It was nice interviewing her. And he was a good time had by all. And truly, I want to thank everybody for listening to this podcast being a part of the show. And if you ever want to reach out with me, uh, to me, just go ahead and send me an email. I'm a pretty easy email. Sheldon at sheldon primary dot com. Uh, that Z one of my emails that I have there got plenty. Uh, if you're on LinkedIn, just look up. Sheldon primers on LinkedIn. Then you got me. You'll not be able thio reach out to you and just anything that you wanna add. I would be grateful for you to just tell me how you think I'm doing. And if you haven't yet, please subscribe to the podcast. And my format has been kind of more interviews lately. But I also do my own solo shows, too, so I'll be getting back to that. But, man, these interviews have been so awesome for me. I got a few more awesome interviews down the pike before I go back to the solo. Me and uh, let's see, I believe next week or the week after, we'll have the learning teens, and that's gonna be awesome. And then I am going to also, uh, just do the guitar and drum episode that I did with Sam Goodman, the hot nerd. And I believe I probably do that first and release that we had a good time talking about drums and guitar. That's our thing. So that is, um, coming up in the next couple of episodes. So please hit the subscribe button, need you to subscribe. So whenever I drop anything new, you get a nice little notification. Wherever you listen. Thio podcast wherever you're listening to me right now. So go ahead and become on actual subscriber to the podcast. If you haven't yet, go to show the prime ms dot com and you will see all my happenings. And that's where you could get the course as well. And, uh, actually, I think the courses that safety consultant to blueprint dot com So if you want to do the course, you could do that. They're as well. And like, if you haven't heard Linda Martins episode with me had told her that once you are my student, you're in. I'm sorry. You got my grubby little paws on you. I'm gonna make your business successful no matter what I gotta do And getting you successful. Eso good become a student. All right, so our tip of the week, this one I was inspired by Linda. So I'm gonna say be true to yourself. That's my tip of the week. You could always try to be someone else. You could always try to be what you think people want to see. You could always try to fit whatever the new fat and this is And, you know, maybe you are looking to be a safety celebrity rich Linda doesn't like the word and

[01:03:46] spk_1: it's all

[01:03:46] spk_0: right. I'm not a fan of it either. And then it's connotation and everything else that comes with it s o. Yeah, I think I'm leaning on that that side too. But what I'm really reaching out and trying to get you to think of is this. If you truly want to do what is good for you sustainable, good for clients, good for your own business, then you're gonna end up having to reconcile with you. Do what is good for you even down to getting your own designation that fits You don't do what everyone else has. Do one that fits you that fits your purpose. And if you want to go back to school, even better, go ahead and go back to school. Get your degrees. I know not everyone has. I didn't do that path of going through high school straight into college and getting my degree that way. I took another path. I had to work first and get a little experience. And then I went back to school to get my bachelor's and my masters later. So some people may be in between that time where you got out of high school, you're living life. Life happens. And now you're just living life and you want to get back into school. If that's the call that you're feeling, if that's the thing that's tugging at you, go ahead and do that. If you wanna be a safety consultant, you're probably gonna need some sort of designation or you're probably gonna need some sort of degree. So if this is the path you want to take as being a safety consultant, go ahead and do that. Get prepared. I always suggest getting prepared first at your current employer. E don't mean just, like slough off, hang out and hide and do all private stuff stuff for your own business during the times you should be giving to your employer. That's not what I mean. What I do mean out of this is do your preparation. And truly I wake up early. So even when I was working, uh, not working for myself so I would do a lot in the morning and sometimes I get a bit late, so I do some of my own stuff late or days off for weekends. I know it's a sacrifice. You have to make it first until you're ready to branch out full time. But they'll come a long time in your life when you're thinking all right things, is it? I'm ready. I'm ready to go full time. And my decision came when it was, uh I was thinking, Man, I gotta take off so much time off to service people. How much more money can I make if I go ahead and leave now and then I can actually reach out to people during the times they're working as opposed to the off hours I've been reaching them or email and in that take synchronous manner. So I really wanted to reach people synchronously eso. That's why I left. But be true to yourself. Really? You want to work this thing out, Especially if this is something that's going to affect you and your partner. You really want to have a team effort in this s o? I would still just truly say it is a personal thing be true to you. Don't try to be like someone else. All right, so that's my tip of the week. It's very basic. It's Linda inspired listening to her story and go back and listen to it again if you want Thio. But throughout her whole life, she had been true to herself, and, you know, that's that's wonderful. That's what we got to Dio. And that's gonna be my tip of the week. So again, get ready to hear the guitar and drum episode with me and Sam Goodman, the hop nerd. We were just speaking out of music, and that was talked about music. Talked about being in bands. We talked about drumming and guitar ing and to the essentials to that and some of the things to get better at it. I've been a drummer for a long time. He's been a guitarist for a long time, and, uh and it was good information I was sharing. And then I do have the learning teams coming up very, very soon. So within the next couple of weeks, you guys gonna be hearing about the learning teams and they're just the three of them. Awesome. And they had a very good time talking to them. All right, so with that I'm going Thio, sign off and I really want you guys to have a great rest of your week and just do something for me. Go get him. This'll episode has been powered by Safety FM