Welcome, everybody to another edition today we have Melanie, with us from breaker 28. And Melanie focuses on leadership leaders Creek ating, inclusive workplaces specifically for women of color. So I’m extremely excited to have us on here today. Melanie, how are you doing?

I’m doing well.Thank you for having me.

Michele:
Melanie, what was that moment when you realize you needed to create record 20th 28 where you want it to change the lives and the career trajectory of women of color?

Sure. So I come from a really matriarchal family of New York and women, both women who think we can do anything, my grandmother, I remember her just telling us just whatever you’re going to do You can figure it out, you can get it done. And so I didn’t realize that there were problems negotiating salary that women typically had till I was like 32. Because for me, I always felt like I could ask for more money, or I could seek a different position. And there were some skills that I had on the inside of me that I didn’t really know were there around influencing and building alliances and things like that. They got me mentors and sponsors who could show me the playbook and all the things I didn’t know. And once I figured out that wasn’t true of everybody, it felt like such an injustice. Because I knew people who were just as talented, maybe more, just as diligent, maybe more, that we’re not getting half of the promotions and opportunities I was getting, because there was this invisible scorecard that they had no idea about. And the second set of skills they needed to develop to advance in their managers didn’t understand what the disconnect was either. They wanted more women of color advancing and they couldn’t figure out why wasn’t happening. And so when I saw that, that missing bridge between them, I thought Maybe I could be that. And that’s what breakers 28 aims to do to create the conditions in the organization and to help individual women of color do the things they need to do to jump that chasm and get where they deserve to be.

I love it. I’m so you so aligned with the mission of a positive hire. So it’s always great to find somebody else working to help women of color in, especially in their careers. What has been your biggest accomplishment in your birth or 28 journey thus far?

Sure. So I think my client work has been really exciting. Sure, I’ve done thought papers, and I’ve gotten to speak places and all that stuff. But what’s been really exciting to me is when I take an organization, I’m thinking of one nonprofit I’m working with right now, from a place where they’re not really sure where they are from a race and equity perspective. They’re not sure what the barriers are. They just know they’re not hiring enough people of color are not advancing enough people of color and that people feel kind icky about the way things are happening. And I’m able to help them get clarity on what’s going on, and what managers need to be doing differently in how they hire in how they manage and how they advanced talent. That’s going to make the biggest difference. And in that particular organization I’m thinking of I didn’t get the permission, which I didn’t say their name. There. I’m already seeing managers hiring differently, hiring more based on qualifications and actual concrete must haves, rather than these bias criteria, for example, or leaders being more thoughtful about how they use their voice empower. Those sorts of like distinctive changes in behavior are the things that make me the most proud.

Definitely, definitely sounds like a fantastic accomplishment with Bricker 28 when we’re looking at intentionally inclusive management in an organization, what does that look like? What What can we What are characteristic When somebody this just an inclusive management and then what are the steps, they some things they need to take so that they are intentional?

Sure, so at the top level, the mindset of an inclusive manager is I don’t know everything. Like if you’re coming to the table thinking you know better than the people who work for you, game over, right? Because the heartbeat of inclusion isn’t that I asked a black woman what to do because it’s the right thing to do. Right or ask a lot the next person like how should I attend this challenge so that I get their buy in and they do it my way anyway. Like, that’s the wrong way. That’s that’s our parents parents model of inclusion, where it’s an added girl that lets people go along with what you want. What what smart, inclusive managers are thinking about now is, I actually don’t know everything. I can’t see everything. In some ways, my identities line up with our core customers in some ways they don’t and so the more diverse employees But I can get into a decision that I’m making, the more likely that decision will be the right one. And so inclusive, inclusive management starts from the place that my people are brilliant. And they bring great things to the table. And if I don’t take advantage of those great minds, I’m going to make decisions that are flat on one side or more. And so that’s the mindset, right? And from that mindset organizations, and then individual managers do different things. So at the organizational level, when you’re trying to manage more inclusively, let’s say you’re a business owner, let’s say you’re a C suite leader or principal or something like that, right? And you’re trying to manage more inclusively top down organizationally. That means you create conditions for people to give you input, before you’ve made the decision, like not as a last check the box effort, right. But in the beginning of a process when you’re engineering, how it’s going to go, thinking about what are those moments where I need input? How am I going to get that input, and how am I going to be responsive to it It also means that when it comes to assessing managers, you’re actually hearing from the people they manage about how they’re doing. You’d be surprised how often the people held least an account in organizations aren’t the top of organizations, because there aren’t safe mechanisms for people to tell the truth about their experience working for them. So those are two organizational moves. And we’re talking about individual supervisors, then that comes to how am I asking for feedback and input throughout the process when I delegate assignments, so for example, not just saying, Hey, this is the only way to do it. But what do you think about this? Is there another way we could do this? Are there pieces I’m missing here? It includes getting feedback and input when it comes to strategic level decisions. Are there pieces I’m missing in my analysis here? Is there a stakeholder group I haven’t thought about? This is especially important when you’re doing community work right and you’re thinking about populations at the margins. Oftentimes staff members have a better perspective for what this parent, or what this lower income family might be experiencing, then you might, because you’re up here in this ivory tower, and you may be missing a piece of the perspective. So the first piece has to do with your individual management getting feedback on the delegations, you do the assignments you give, whether the workload reasonable, that sort of thing. The second has to do with the decision making around your core, your core business, your core mission, your core program, how am I hearing from people that are closer to the work about the work so that I can make more robust decisions? And then the third piece is creating room for people to speak up when things are going wrong. I can’t tell you how many managers I hear from they’re like, Oh, yeah, my doors always open here flip, right, except nobody gives them any feedback. And so as a result, these managers think they’re doing the best and their best people are walking out the door. You know, they’re six months away from someone handing in a resignation letter and they have no idea because they have haven’t created the kind of environment where people can check you respected respectfully, when you’re doing something wrong. And so inclusive managers are thinking about how do I create the kind of relationship with my direct reports that they feel comfortable giving me feedback. And I don’t say I hear you, but I really hear them. And I really implement what they tell me to do.

Definitely, definitely agree with that. So we’re in the midst of Covid19. What does it look like now to be intentionally creating an inclusive culture?

So the first thing you need to know is if we’re in physical distancing, which many of us are, then that means that we’re not going to have as much of a bent toward inclusion as we would if we were in the same office. So if you can imagine you were managing me and I was right outside your office, my cube was right there. be much easier to ask my opinion about something right But when I’m all the way in my house, far from you, it takes work to make that extra step to get my input and advice, and to make sure that I am kept in the loop of how things are going. And so my first piece of advice for managers trying to manage equitably and inclusively in the time of pandemic, right is to be designing moments, to bring your team together to give you input on how things are going to tell you the truth about what’s not working. If you don’t create those containers, things will happen. And then you’re going to be stuck holding the bag when things don’t turn out the way you think they’re going to. Because there was never any room for people to tell you things were going poorly. So that’s the first piece create the conditions create the containers for your team to get together and give you input. That might be a team meeting, where a standard part of the meeting is let me know how things are going with the program right now. Let me know how you know let me know how customers are responding to our new offering. Let me know how what we’re seeing in terms of suppliers cancel orders, whatever it is, whatever your indicators in your business, creating space for people to tell you the bad news, and to give you input on how to tweak things so that maybe your results will be better. The second thing I would think about is how you actually manage performance. So let’s say someone on your team who’s usually a pretty good performer is dropping balls like it’s their job, just not delivering late on deadlines. How do you how do you approach that in an inclusive way? Well, here’s what you’re not going to do what you’re not what you’re not going to do is roll up to somebody assume they’re slacking off. assume they’re playing Nintendo Switch or whatever. And that’s why they’re not getting the work done. Instead, when you have the conversation and say, Listen, I know this is a tough time in the world. I don’t need to know all the details of your situation. But I do need to know what you can commit to do. Because what can’t happen is these expectations can’t be getting missed all the time, and you remain in good standing here. What can happen is we can renegotiate those expectations and make them realistic to the contract. You’re in if you’re caregiving for children caregiving for others, we can talk about that. But I need you to commit to something. And then what you commit to me about, I need you to hit it. Like I need both things to be true. Because I need to be able to depend on you to keep your word and achieve these results. You have a conversation like that, where people feel safe saying, You know what, I can’t make 12 calls a week, but I can make a strong 10. Or I can deliver this project, but I need to flex my hour so that the middle of the day is free. Those sorts of conversations are what lead to good results. And a turnaround and performance, even when people’s personal lives are in disarray. Because you become the anchor and the storm, the place where they can have predictability. And then as a result, your business benefits and they’re able to retain their job and succeed in this really challenging time.

Absolutely having having conversation now, communication at the highest level? Absolutely. I want to go back to something you said about Crete. Eating opportunities to bring your people together. And I know a lot of people are doing meetings, are there other things they should be or could be doing to bring their people together than just an informational meeting? about what’s going on in the organization?

Sure. So people are trying all sorts of stuff right now. One of the things that folks have been doing is just having check ins that are check ins, they’re just straight up puddles in the morning, how are you doing? How are things going here? Three things you need to know this change in the day. What’s up for you today? And so teams are like having those real time kind of negotiations almost like a scrum in a tech context of like, what are you going to get done? Um, but but with a little more of an edge on like, the personal and like the challenges they’re facing in their work and how they’re going to tackle it and what the day looks like. That’s totally something you can do. From a bringing people together perspective. It’s, it’s less about whether the container is meetings because it probably is. It’s more about how you structure it. execute that meeting. So I’m not saying your typical department meeting, as usual, where you’re reading out updates, a couple bullets. I’m saying can you have a 45 minute tactical meeting about how we’re going to negotiate this challenge, and people can be on the zoom or on the phone on zoom, because obviously, some folks can’t keep it together on the video. Either way, it’s fine, that they’re able to contribute and maybe there’s even pre work. So they come in ready to solve a problem together. Or another thought might be that I know some leaders are doing kind of like fireside chats where they’re sharing out but there’s a lot of room for questions and engagement. So it’s not just report out it’s actually engaging with small team audiences. So maybe like her team, you do a fireside chat or you do a fireside chat with the Oregon there are some mechanisms for submitting questions or polling to see how people are feeling about things.

Michele:
Definitely love those options you shared they are definitely powerful and and much needed right now. In the midst of COVID-19 I wanted to ask, what advice would you give somebody who wants to enter into this space? They want to be sure that they are creating intentional leadership within organizations.

Yep. The first thing I would think about is, you know, we do a little bit of self work self assessment, like what are my liabilities, right? So for example, one of my favorite leaders that I’m working with right now that I just actually just finished coaching him. One of the things that I loved about working with him is he was so self aware. Right, so white man came from a very privileged background economically is leading an organization that has lots of women of color on the leadership team has lots of people of color, trans folks, folks at the margins, LGBTQ and he knew that coming into it, he might be showing up in a way that does not promote equity. So he did his work. by that. I mean, he did reading. He did his own study, he got himself a coach. And he and he asked for tough feedback. And he took it. And he acted on it. And he wasn’t defensive about it. And over the course of years, he’s become a much more inclusive leader. Because he did that work. I think one of the things that’s tricky is we are big fans of the blame and train in business, where you go to a training, you’re so bad, you’re so terrible, you’re so bad. Now you’ve done it, you’re good now, that that’s not how this works, right? being inclusive is about behavior change. And as a Latina from the Bronx, I don’t get a pass, I still may be doing the same things that are actually causing disparate impact to people at the margins of my organization. And so my advice would be leader, start with yourself. What are the gaps you have hunches about? Are there trends you’ve noticed, for example, when you manage black men, it doesn’t work out? Well. That’s data, or if you tend to bump heads with that Other people who look and sound like you, that’s data, right? What you lived a while, what are the trends, you know, and from that self awareness place, start finding ways to staff those weaknesses, whether it’s by reading, whether it’s by feedback that you actually listen to, whether it’s by, you know, building a community of people who will check you outside of work, and you can sort of have thought partners outside of your job that you run situations by. What I will say, though, from from an equity perspective, is oftentimes leaders will put a lot of burden on people of color to be their teachers. And that’s not what I’m suggesting. What I’m suggesting, is find a multifaceted approach to growing as an inclusive leader. And someone that may mean feedback from your direct reports, not because they’re black, because they’re your direct reports, right? And they’re going to have the most insight on your behavior and opening up the floor to say, hey, Mel, I know that you’re you’re Latina. I know that you know, I haven’t had as much experience working with women of color. If I ever show up wonky? Will you tell me? If I say something and it doesn’t land? Well, and my contract to you is I won’t hold it against you, would you be willing to share it? And that opens the door for them to engage on their terms around giving you feedback. But when that happens, you better be gracious. You better not say I hear you, but because the first time that happens, it’s shut down and you’re not getting that feedback ever again.

Definitely will have would happen definitely can see that happening. What’s a common myth about being an inclusive leader? Mm hmm.

Yep. Um, I think that one of the most dangerous myths that I see is that you get to a place and you arrive, like you win the award and you’re done. Like you’re good. So we just need to get there. I just need to get the training. I just need to get the coaching. I just need to do this work for two years and then boom, got it. And what I’m finding is the kinds of leaders I want to follow the kinds of leaders I love to coach the kinds of leaders that are getting great results for people of color for LGBTQIA staff, for people at the margins. In general, economically first generation college grads, you name it, differing abilities, those leaders are always working on themselves. They’re always thinking about their language. They’re always reading about studying about how to become more inclusive. They’re getting feedback, they’re building communities of practice. They are not resting on their laurels because they’ve hired three Latina women like that. And so like the the I hate putting things in binaries as a rule, but as a rule, if you think you got there, you ain’t got there, right, like, and so the biggest myth I see is like this desire to get to a place as opposed to build skill and muscle and improving over time. It’s not a finite game. It’s an infinite one, if that makes sense.

It does it absolutely that it’s it’s perfect. really thinking DNI is this, these five things in a box? And it’s so much more than these, these classifications are. And, for instance, intersectionality is so many, it’s like well, longside you Latino women and black women? I’m good. It’s like, well, summer mother’s summer heterosexual summer lesbian, like their other Some are third generation college graduate, summer, first generation Americans. What, what are you talking about? And then it’s a whole other ballgame. And they still like, Okay, I guess I have more work to do. Yeah, you really do.

And actually, if I can, the flip is also true. So I’d say if it was like the number two myth would be because I don’t know everything. I can’t do nothing. Right. Like I need to get all the information. And then once I know, then I can take a step. Right. And there’s this. It’s true in the nonprofit sector. It’s also true in the public sector. This perfectionism is actually the enemy of equity. Right? It’s the enemy of equity because it requires leaders to be perfect before they start, and they will be perfect. That was rule number one, right? And so my invitation is it’s better for you to do a little work. Try something, don’t be reckless, don’t be reckless. But try something. For example, I’m trying to quit ablest language. So for example, blind spots, or shouldn’t have a leg to stand on, like those little things and idioms in our language that actually are an affront to folks with differing abilities. I’m not saying I’m there yet. I still make lots of mistakes on that front. But just because I’m still learning doesn’t mean I can’t start and I can’t be accountable for my impact while I grow. I also don’t get a pass right when I make a mistake on that. I deserve to be called out for me. I need to own my impact there. But I can still give myself grace. To grow, while owning my impact, both things can be true.

Absolutely, absolutely. I, I went to a lesbian event A few years ago in New York, actually. And we were walking to get drinks this and that. And I was I can’t remember what the question was like, Well, I’m not listening to you like, what are you doing here? But well, it says and allies. So they were surprised because usually we don’t show up. And so I was like, and so then the question became, why are you here that I have a lot to learn. I said, it’s great to read. But I’m not going to sit here and ask you questions. I need to sit here and see and learn what you need it by engaging with you edit on a one to one level. So sometimes you have to move yourself out of your comfort level outside of books and really go and just engage with people not questioning that but go where they are you beyond comfortable, why they are comfortable, and in that is really part of being intentional while you’re an inclusive leader, and sometimes they miss that. A lot of times they miss that. So, Melanie, this has been great. We’re gonna have to do this again. How can people find you?

Sure. So the easiest way to find me is you can just go to breaker 28 dot com, and I’m available there. I’m also really easy to find on LinkedIn as well. I’m just a LinkedIn slash in Melanie’s Rivero, so very easy to find on both of those fronts. But breaker 28 calm I think I have some resources there terms of additional inclusive tools for managers. So if that’s what you’re looking for, that’s where you’ll find it.

And everybody that is a breaker to eight.com you know about the word she made it real easy for you. She took the shortcut for us. That breaker to eight.com Thank you so much, Melanie. It has been phenomenal having you on today.

Thank you so much. And I look like To continuing the conversation later