Join us as Paul explains the downsides of negative gearing from a financial planner's perspective, how the stock market helped him get started, and how his business became a huge risk during the GFC.

Through discussing the importance of choice and financial freedom, Benson leaves us dreaming about rolling fields in the south of France, and skyscrapers in New York city. If that doesn't inspire you to start building wealth, I don’t know what will!

Timestamps:

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[00:08:34] That's what leverage does it magnifies your outcome now magnifies it both ways. So if it goes down, you're in trouble. But if it magnifies it in the right way. That's extremely powerful.

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies. 

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode, we are continuing our conversation with Financial Autonomy podcast host Paul Benson. He will get you thinking about what choice looks like for you while entertaining us with his worst investment story. We also learn about his investment strategy and the personal habits that have helped him along the way. 

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode, we are continuing our conversation with Financial Autonomy podcast host Paul Benson. Discover what happens after eight months into closing a business deal when the bank calls to let him know they won’t offer the loan anymore and how his first property he purchased with a 10% deposit let him walk away with $80,000. 

Tyrone Shum   

Benson dabbles in many different forms of investment, one of them being property. However, sometimes the risk can seem to outweigh the reward when you are first starting out in any type of investment.  

Paul Benson  

[00:01:27] I mean, long term, it's worked out well. But as I mentioned, I bought the financial planning business in 2008. And at that point, the Australian share market was down 30%. Although when we struck the deal it was almost at its peak. So we struck because it just takes a long time. There's a lot of due diligence and a lot of processes to go through. So we struck the deal late 2007 - the share market was at its peak. Share market started to tank. And it's less so now, but at the time the business was - and the revenue - was very much linked to the state of the share market. A lot of the fees were a percentage of clients balances and their balances were largely in shares. 

So the market tanked, which meant the income of the business tanked. So I had to go back to the person that we'd sort of done a handshake deal on and we're in the process of formalising the contracts and say, Hey, I can't get this to stack up anymore. I know we agreed on this price. But I can't get this to work given that the incomes now dropped. And so we renegotiated there and we cut a couple 100,000 off the price. And at the time I thought great, I've got myself a good deal here. And, you know, I became the owner of the business the first of July at that point, the share market was down 30%, which historically a bear market 30% about as much as it drops. So I came in fingers crossed that the worst was behind us. And the market continued to drop another 20% a drop to 50% all up. And I'd taken on as much debt as I have ever had in my whole life.

Just when we thought his luck couldn't get any worse, the future kept looking grimmer

Paul Benson  

[00:03:16] And six, eight months into it, the bank that lent us the money decided they weren't prepared to lend to financial planning businesses anymore. And we were a little bit lucky that we had a three-year loan. So as much as they didn't want to be in there anymore. They couldn't break the term, which is normally it's the customers thinking about or do I want to fix and then I'm locked in for three years. But in this case, it worked in my favour because probably the bank wanted to say go away. But they couldn't because I had a three-year term. So that gave me a little bit of room.

 But it was a stressful time. And I can very clearly remember coming home and speaking to my wife about we might have to sell the house here because I'm not sure I can keep all this afloat. And if the bank doesn't want to lend me the money, then I've got to find someone else to lend the money. And I don't know if anyone else is going to lend me the money. And I don't know how this is going to play out. And it's not much fun to come home to your wife and say we might lose the house. I may not lose the house, but we might be forced to sell the house here. But she was great. And she sort of looked if that's what we have to do, then that's fine. We'll rent and then we'll buy again down the road. Now, fortunately, it never came to that. And we were able to refinance and the market recovered. 

Tyrone Shum 

Although the outlook was grim, Benson realised there was a light in the dark 

[00:04:31] There was an upside to acquiring the business during that difficult time, which was that clients were keen to talk to somebody because they were concerned. And they didn't attribute any blame to me because I didn't put them in the strategies, I inherited it. And the previous owner he hadn't done you know, he was fine. He had done good quality work anyway. But it's natural for people to want to blame somebody and they certainly couldn't blame me. But what they could do was find someone who was eager to listen and eager to help and eager to build a relationship. And they were eager to do something. So it gave us a good basis to create a relationship. It would have been a lot more difficult if I had have bought the business, and it ticked along fine for two years or even a year and then crashed. Then they could have said all was fine under the previous bloke and then as soon as you took over and it's all gone pear-shaped right. In this instance, they couldn't say that. 

And, as I say, It formed the basis of some great relationships and clients that are still clients to this day, because of how we work together through what for them was a really worrying time, particularly for clients who had retired or recently retired. And they had X amount in Super, and they’ve done the numbers, and this is going to last me this long, and then all of a sudden, and the share market dropped by 50%. Most people who are retired, of course, aren't going to be 100% in the share market, but their balance might have dropped 20%, which is still a heck of a lot. And you're looking at that and thinking well gee if this stays down here, or it's impossible to or not impossible, but it's a natural inclination to extrapolate and say, Well, if this keeps going, I'm going to be out of money in 10 years. 

Now, of course, that's not what happens. But in the heat of the moment, it's natural to think that way. And so working with people through that period, as much as it was stressful, and I mean, I bought the business hoping that we're going to add a whole lot of new clients. And just none of that happened. It was all just trying to keep the existing clients from jumping off a cliff. Right. Which, in terms of building a business and building profitability and paying off debt, I mean, it was pretty hard, but it was what needed to be done. And it did create good foundations long term. So in terms of worst investment experience, as I say, long term, it was a good experience. But for the first few years, it was a hard experience. And, and I probably just about every person I've spoken to that's bought a business thinks in hindsight that they paid too much. But anyway, I'm in that camp, too. In hindsight, I probably paid too much. But what are you going to do?

Tyrone Shum   

Every investor has an aha moment at some point, for Benson, it was the first property he purchased with a 10% deposit that let him walk away with $80,000. 

Paul Benson  

[00:08:06] I think that one was really crucial. Really seeing the impact of leverage. And to me that, you know, we're on a property podcast here to me. So, often, I see stories of this property, and it was such a great outcome. And actually, when I look at it, I think that's, you're attributing that too because I bought this great property in this great suburb. But I would see that as yet, leverage was really useful there. Magnifying your outcome, that's what leverage does it magnifies your outcome now magnifies it both ways. So if it goes down, you're in trouble. But if it magnifies it in the right way. That's extremely powerful. And when you think about creating wealth, creating financial security and gaining choice, using leverage is really powerful. 

And it's interesting how that's, that's changed over time. I mean, once upon a time, it was about negative gearing. And if we were recommending a strategy for a client, therefore, it's a husband and wife, then you'd say, well, we have it in the higher income earners name because they're going to get the benefit of the negative gearing. And there's a tax angle to the strategy in addition to the investment, I mean, the tax angle should be secondary, but it's still there. Today, though, that really doesn't stack up because interest rates are so low that almost nothing is negatively geared. And so we've largely flipped them. And often for couples these days, we just put it in joint names, but you might even put it in the lower-income earners’ name on the basis that there's not much from a negative - from a negative gearing point of view, could even be positively geared. 

But of course, at some point given it's an investment, there's likely to be some capital gains tax so it probably is more attractive to have it in the lower-income earners’ name at that capital gains tax point. Now the challenge with that is that usually a long way in the distance and it's a bit hard to know what ownership is best, but, but that's been a real change because it was just in the past. There was just a real black and white. If you're doing gearing then it went in the higher income earners name - doesn't apply anymore. Yeah, so yeah, I think it just sorry, slightly off-topic there. But getting back to your question. Yeah, I think it was wonderful learning for me. That experience of ‘Wow.’ If you can, if you can use some leverage and use it wisely or Luckily, but let's go with wisely. It can have an enormous impact on your financial position and your financial outcome.

Tyrone Shum  

Benson then explained the problem with the negative gearing strategy 

Paul Benson  

[00:11:27] At current interest rates, it's difficult to make anything negative geared anyway, unless it's got a really low rental yield. And for some reason, you had to pay an unusually high rate of interest, but many of you're paying about 2% odd in interest. Well, in most Metro regions, your rental yields going to be 2% ish, probably a bit more depends on the area. So you know, perhaps you’re neutrally geared I mean, you're going to have council rates and a few expenses. If you're negatively geared, you're not negatively geared by much. Now, that might not always be the case. At some point, you'd imagine interest rates will go back up. But for the moment, even if you want to be negatively geared, it's pretty tough at the moment. And yeah, there is a broader question around. It's interesting that we would in the past have championed negative gearing, there is the tax angle, but set that aside for a moment negative gearing means that the investments losing money on an ongoing basis, and you're betting that there's enough capital gains, capital gain, to offset that loss. But of course, if you could get a situation where it's neutral, or even slightly positively geared, and still have the prospect of capital gain, well clearly that's better, isn't it? I mean, yeah, I don't know. There's not too many other investments that you would tolerate regularly losing and just hoping that oh yeah, that's okay. Because 10 years down the track, it's going to be worth more. I don't know that people would do that with shares or with a lot of other investments.

Tyrone Shum  

He explained the trick he used to save thousands of dollars on his third property, which was a commercial investment. 

Paul Benson   

[00:32:04] The other properties that we've been involved with. As I mentioned, I bought a business in 2008. And that had a lease on an office that come due a couple of years later. And so it was time to move. And I was looking around for office space. And I was horrified at commercial property, and as an investor, this is why you love it right. It's great from an investor's point of view because you kind of just get a shell and it's up to the tenant to figure it all out. And I was looking at a property and you've got usually a five-year lease with different options. That's a pretty long time frame. And the cost of fitting it out, I was freaking out. I gotta spend all this money getting it looking nice. And then maybe five years later, I leave and the landlord just goes oh thanks for that. I'll just keep that. Because there's no practical way that you can take that with you. And that was pretty off-putting.

And so I sort of decided, being in financial planning, we were doing quite a lot of self-managed super at the time, through the whole GFC self-managed super into property was pretty popular. But look, how about a wife and I created a self-managed superfund, roll our supers in, and let's just buy an office. Through self-managed super ordinarily, you can't lease a property off yourself, but there is an exemption for commercial property. So we did that. So then my financial planning business leases the office from our self managed Superfund. It's got to pay commercial rent. And it's all aboveboard. And you know, there's proper contracts and things. And we still do that to this day. So in fact, the office I'm sitting in right now is owned by a self-managed Superfund. 

So that solved my problem in that it meant we bought a brand new office. And I didn't feel bad about fitting it out. Because I felt that well, at least there's an there's a value there. And if we do leave five years down the track, and I lease it out to someone else, then the next tenant is going to appreciate that it’s all cut up into nice offices and all that sort of stuff. So I felt a lot better about spending money, making it look good. And, and kind of an added is just nice to have that security, hey, the landlord's never gonna kick you out. And you can sort of take care of the place. I must say, I suspect from an investment point of view, our superannuation balance would probably be bigger if it was still in shares, rather than in property. But nevertheless, it solved the problem at the time. [00:34:38] For a couple of reasons. My financial planning business, it tends to do better when the share markets going well and it and it's a bit quieter when the share markets weak. And so there was a part of me that just liked the idea of having some of my wealth and my wife's wealth not tied to the share market, right. And so having a good chunk of our super inner commercial property, you know, there was an element of that that appealed to. 

Coming up after the break, we learn more about another property he bought on a limb right before the pandemic hit.

[00:35:06] At the beginning of 2020, which is an interesting time, to acquire a property given COVID. Obviously, that was unforeseen when we were shopping around.

We delve more into the future mindset on what he wants to achieve if he retires.

[00:16:21] I'm not someone who aspires to retire early. In fact, I'd, I'd be quite happy to work till I'm 70

The gracious gift that got him interested in investing

[00:24:25] And I think that was really key to, to getting me started thinking about money and finances and building wealth 

All that and more coming up after the break. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

 

Tyrone Shum 

Benson bought another property on a limb right before the pandemic hit.

[00:35:06] At the beginning of 2020, which is an interesting time, to acquire a property given COVID. Obviously, that was unforeseen when we were shopping around 

Paul Benson   

[00:35:34] But it all worked out. Alright. Interestingly, the reason that came about is because... when I was writing the chapters in my book on property and reflecting on different things, and I was thinking about that first property that I bought, and why that was the success that it was. And I sort of recognised, anyway, some key elements about that. The fact that it was older, so it had all its depreciation, it was kind of as rundown it was as it was ever going to be. So the only way was up, it was in a really good central location, lots of good public transport, it’s solid brick, it didn't have 100 apartments, it was six in that block, had a car park.

Anyway, I just identified some key characteristics that made me realise why that property worked. And I guess also just reflecting on, I’m no handyman, and a key thing that would have put me off investment property historically is I'm not someone that's going to get in there and you know, pull apart the kitchen, or anything like that. So an apartment or a flat where there's a body corp or an owners corp, where I can pay a quarterly fee, and I just know they take care of it, that suits me. So anyway, sort of reflecting on this. And in writing the book, I wanted to put a case study together. So I was just pulling out some numbers. And it became evident to me that Gee, there are properties like that you can buy, where the length of the rent would cover the cost of the debt. 

And, you know, we, we had equity in our home. And if it was untenanted, we're in a position where we could have carried that or if interest rates went up a bit. I figured, yeah, we can carry that too. And so I actually said to my wife, just I've been writing in the morning, and I said, Look, let's jump in the car because I was googling and I'm on realestate.com, or whatever. Because I wanted to get actual numbers for this case study I was working on. And I'm like, there's a property here in Flemington. That's like, here's the rent. And here's what it costs. Well, for that money, it just pays for itself like it's costless to own. Why would you not buy it? There's got to be a catch here. So let's jump in the car, it’s open for inspection in half an hour. Let's have a look. So we went down there, like seems pretty good. It had a tenant in it was ready to go. And we sort of Oh, yeah. So we tossed it around for a few days. And we should have a crack at this. And of course, by the time we did... it was sold, right. But that gave us the seed for like, well hang on. Maybe there are others? 

Tyrone Shum 

Now determined to find another property to buy, they kept looking

[00:38:07] We had a look around a few more came across a place in a suburb that most people probably never heard of was called Travancore, which is kind of near Flemington. It's quite inner city, Melbourne, just a really quiet little wedge. But we found a place, I think it's got eight apartments, again, sort of 1970s-ish. had a tenant who wanted to stay. Funnily enough during the open for inspection. She was there sitting on the couch. So I was actually able to say, Well, first, do you want to stay? Yep. Is there any? Is there anything broken? Is there any work you need? Done? I'm just trying to think through, am I gonna have to spend any money here if I buy this. Nope, she's happy as Larry. 

And so we just sort of, well, this looks pretty solid. It's an old kitchen. At some point, the kitchen needs to be replaced. But if it's got a tenant, we've got cash flow from day one. Air Conditioner was just about new, and it just fine. And the commitment was not all that much, we could say that the rent was going to cover the loan. And, you know, outgoings. So we put in an offer, the offer was accepted. Done deal, right. And, yeah, as I said on February 2020, and then COVID hit a month later, but it was fine. The tenant, she didn't lose her job, and she kept on paying and, and it's all worked out. 

Well. And, you know, we're really grateful that she's been a great tenant, and so, you know, we won't be putting up the rent anytime soon. We were a bit concerned. I mean we could manage that but I'm glad not to have had to, you know, yeah, have been empty. It would have been difficult to find a tenant if we got through 2020. So yeah, so I dare say we haven't. If we sold that property today, I doubt we'd make any money or almost certainly we wouldn't, but you know, buy a property with the intention that you're gonna sell it 8 months later or not even. I Still feel really good about that property. It's an awesome location, it's so good. I mean if I was a single person you know - there's a bike track that takes you into the city, just at the bottom of the street is a tram. At the other end it's really close you can walk to the hospitals and all the parks, and it's got a really big north-facing window, and it's on the second storey gets heaps of natural light. It's a great place. And yeah, one day we'll put a new kitchen in and that sort of stuff and freshen that up. But the bones are awesome.

Tyrone Shum  

Benson shares what his why was, and the motivation behind accumulating wealth. 

Paul Benson  

[00:13:28] I guess we've got a few elements. And this is something my wife and I've obviously discussed because there's a couple. I'm sure you're the same. I mean, you've got to work those things out together. It is interesting financial planning how often I get couples in and: All right, so what do we want to do here? And husband and wife have never talked about it. And in fact, sometimes it's one of the members of the couple dragging the other one in reluctantly because every time they want to talk about where we want to get to in the future, the other one clams up or walks out the door. And so they dragged me in to try and you know, get it out of them. So, so yeah, so we've got, we've certainly got some plans. I guess a key, certainly self-employed was something that I had always hoped to be one day and we touched on earlier. You know how I managed my week. And it's wonderful to have that degree of control. And it was great. My kids are a bit older now.

But when they were young, it was wonderful to be able to do classroom help and do some of these things. You know, I coached both my boy’s basketball for a lot of years. And sometimes it was four o'clock training and these sorts of things. And being self-employed, being in control of my diary and just being able to block out time and I've got this commitment was a key goal for me. And I'm glad that I've had the opportunity to do that. We, when … my youngest is in year 10 now and when he finishes high school for a long time now my wife and I have had as a goal that we want to be able to live for two to three months a year. overseas, once both the boys are adults, and we particularly like the idea of whilst they're at university because then it gives them a bit of freedom, but also they can feed the pets and look after the house and stuff. 

Paul Benson  

[00:15:14] And we're well on track for that. And in fact, to a slight degree COVID help they're a little bit because it proved that I mean, I work from our spare room for almost a year, and the business ticked over just fine. So If can work from a spare room, then I can equally work from some house that we rent in the south of France, or something for two or three months, right. So and it got everyone a bit more comfortable with zoom meetings and that sort of stuff. So we feel clearly at the moment with COVID be a bit difficult to travel. But that's not always going to be the case. And it's a few years away for us. So the expectation is we're still on track for that, and we feel that's more doable than ever and more positive and more committed to that than ever. 

And so, yeah, the expectation is two to three months, sort of New York and that area, one year, we'll do London and England, and we'll do several different European countries and some other parts around the world as well. So certainly looking forward to that phase of our life. And that's, that's been a key goal that we've worked on for a long time. I'm not someone who aspires to retire early. In fact, I'd be quite happy to work till I'm 70, perhaps maybe not five days a week, but I really enjoy my work. I love it. And so early retirements, not something that appeals to me, but I have, you know, our financial plan is built around us being in a position that I could retire at 60 if I chose. So, I've got to work that back as to right, how much do I need to contribute to Super? How much do I need to contribute to other investments so that at age 60 if I wish I can retire? As I said, not my intention, but I want to have that option. And so again, that's, I guess, the choice scenario. So that's, that's a plan. That's, that's in progress now. And we're in meeting the goals that we need to meet. So that's realistic, that will happen. 

Although Benson always wanted a mentor, he knows it’s proven difficult to find one. So he took matters into his own hands.

Paul Benson  

[00:18:25] I've always been on the lookout for a great mentor. And I must say, I've never really found one, I think it would be awesome. And similarly, I've been on the lookout to help someone else. And there is one person that every second month we catch up for lunch via zoom and just have a bit of a chat. Although to be honest, the relationship is developed such that I get as much out of it as he does. It's really a two-way street. But I did originally approach it on the basis of Hey, do you need a mentor and you know, if you'd like, I’d be there. It's a little bit of an awkward conversation to have, though, because that kind of potentially suggests you're a bit full yourself, you know, so it's slightly awkward. But I guess mindful that I couldn't find someone I was trying to be proactive. And yeah. You know, he and I catch up for lunch, and it's good. 

But I think what I found really helpful was colleagues in a similar position to myself. So I was a bit fortunate when I did initially go out on my own. I was under a licensee that was part of a broader group, and it had two or 300 different practices around the country. And so they'd have a couple of catch-ups each year. A couple that were just like Melbourne Metro, but once a year, they'd have a big national one. And I always got a lot out of those. It was great to speak to other colleagues in the same boat as me. They weren't mentors, but they were peers. And often, these days, they'd be professional development days typically and so they'd be guest speakers and economists and various bits and pieces. And actually, the best stuff you got out of the day was the cup of tea, or the, you know, the morning tea break or whatever, when you're just having a chat with someone. And they happen to mention or just discovered, you could do such and such. And, you know, we helped some clients do this sort of, it's genius. What didn't I think of that? Right? And then you go back, and then you implement that. So? mentors? No, but peers? Yes, very helpful.

I've had a couple of times. I mean, I've sort of formed one group of different business owners that I knew to see if we could get that to work, it was alright, but it faded out. I was in a paid sort of group along those lines, where there was someone that sort of hosted it, and then half a dozen other business owners around a table, a bit diminishing returns on that I probably got a lot out of that the first three to six months, but then it, its usefulness diminished. I think everyone had kind of shared their story. And maybe I'd kind of squeeze the juice out of that. But it was good for a while. So yeah, I guess that's, that's what I found valuable and useful, specifically, in terms of my journey as a business owner, which is, frankly, the source of my wealth. And that's how I generate my income. And I'm not, I'm not driving around in a Ferrari by any stretch. But you know, we're getting there. It's a process, as I say, you know, my kids are still at high school. So we've had school fees and bits and pieces - expensive time of life, but, we're on track. 

Not surprisingly, as a financial planner, I have a financial plan. We're following it. And we're where we need to be in terms of milestones, which is an important piece of the puzzle. So yeah, and so the business is the business success has been fundamental to that. And so that's, as I say, where the peers and the network has been really good.

Tyrone Shum  

Benson then provided some insight on how he became interested in investing  

Paul Benson   

[00:23:29] My grandfather got me interested in... it was shares. And I know this is a property podcast, but I guess it was investment broadly, right? Yes. And in fact, the first shares that I owned was some shares that he gave me he, he worked for a company called CSR, which is gyprock plasterboard and stuff, some of you listeners might not, and he worked there, I think pretty much all his life. And so he must have got given some shares over the journey. And so he split them up across his eight grandchildren. So we all got, and it wasn't, it wasn't a lot of money. But as a teenager, I owned some shares. And it was back in the day, we got a share certificate, even though it wasn't all on chest. So that was pretty cool. Right? And that got me interested in investing. And I think that was really key to getting me started thinking about money and finances and building wealth and learning about... you get these dividends every six months, and the price goes up and down. But if I don't sell that doesn't really matter. 

So yeah, I think learning about that getting some first-hand experience as a teenager was really valuable. I mean, we didn't touch on it. But I mentioned that first property I bought and it's 10% deposit and I know in the context of today, an 11 grand deposit doesn't sound like very much. But it still took me a fair while to save that, and especially as I was living in different share houses and things. So I had rent to pay and those type of things. But a key way that I accumulated that was through buying shares. And, and those shares that my grandfather gave me were part of that. And I wouldn't have necessarily had he not got me started, I don't know that I would have been buying shares in my 20s. And if I hadn't bought shares in my 20s, then I wouldn't have been able to buy that first property in I think I bought that when I was 24. And had not bought that first property, then I couldn't have bought my home. And if I hadn't bought my home, then I wouldn't have had the equity to buy the business. So it's all a cascade. 

Tyrone Shum   

The domino effect had a positive impact on Benson’s investment journey, and we find out what he would tell his past self if he could speak to him now. 

Paul Benson   

Can I go back 20 years?  And so I need to go back, I need to go back longer. And only because I'm thinking so my oldest son is at university this year. And so I guess what would I say to him, you know, thinking in my own shoes, and it was probably, perhaps to be a bit more ambitious, but also maybe slightly less worried about what others think, and a bit less worried about fitting in, I guess or doing what everyone else is doing. Being a bit more prepared to tread my own path. I mean, I think I've kind of done that anyway. But maybe I could have fast-forwarded that five or 10 years. Don't know that's about where I'm at. But as I say, I wouldn't change anything. Otherwise, I'd be in a different place now. And I'm happy with where I am now.

Tyrone Shum 

Although Benson is extremely successful, he isn’t ignorant or entitled. He acknowledges how being born into a privileged life has helped him along the way. However, he also realises the importance of hard work. 

Paul Benson   

[00:29:02] I mean, there's obviously the luck of being born in a western country with good health care and good education. And yeah, so there's, there's clearly luck involved in where we're born. And the opportunities that that presents. and obviously, yeah, there's some luck in terms of like, particularly that initial property purchase. 

Um, but beyond that, I think it's been pretty much up to me, I mean, doing uni over six years at night whilst working during the day is not everyone's cup of tea. And it was important that I did that university study because I mean, I could have at the time, I could have started as a financial planner without it, but I doubt I would have got the job without it Anyway. And certainly today, you can't be a licenced financial planner without a degree. So it was important that I got that those studies done, and that then created opportunities for me and no one else made that happen. So I think everyone's got a, say, some luck in where you're born and the opportunities that gives. But um, but I'm not gonna say it's all luck. You know, I do feel like I’ve made my own opportunities and look, maybe I could have made more of it. I could have studied harder and these sort of things. But anyway, we're where we are today. And it's not a terrible place to be so...

Thank you to Paul Benson, our guest on this episode of Property Investory.