We're so excited to publish this conversation between James and Sidney Dekker - professor, author, film maker, founder of the Safety Science Innovation Lab amongst many other accolades, Sidney gives his insights into the gap between 'safety as done' and 'safety as imagined', the 'tribalism' surrounding different safety approaches, and James somehow shoe-horns an conversation about Star Wars in there with no intended end point! Thank you to Sidney and to the organisers at the EHS Congress in Berlin for helping us to set up this conversation - definitely a career highlight. Enjoy.....