Safety FM with Jay Allen
Jorge Torres
October 19, 2021
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Jorge "The Bilingual Safety Guy" Torres. Jorge is a Certified Safety Professional with a simple mission, to improve safety in the construction industry by changing the approach to how we manage it. Take a listen to this conversation between Jay and Jorge on The Jay Allen Show
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Jorge "The Bilingual Safety Guy" Torres. Jorge is a Certified Safety Professional with a simple mission, to improve safety in the construction industry by changing the approach to how we manage it.

Take a listen to this conversation between Jay and Jorge on The Jay Allen Show

The transcript is not perfect.

[00:00:00] :  this show is brought to you by safety. FM. Remember hello and welcome to another episode of the J allen show. I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods. You know, I I noticed that I never say really the whole title to the show. Welcome to the J ALLen show on safety FM. I guess we can shorten that up, but I guess I never really do say it anyway. So let's start talking about what's going on inside of your world because that's always important. How are things are things going well? Are you taking a look around and what's going on inside of this world? Hopefully, before we get to the end of the year, things will improve. That's always something that we can look forward to. And it's always important to see how everybody else is doing. So let's never play that down. So as we get into today's episode, I want to tell you what is going on here today because it's always important to discuss with you what is happening today. I have the lovely opportunity of sitting down with Jorge Torres. Jorge is a certified safety professional. What's a simple mission to improve safety and construction industry by changing the approach to how we manage it Over the last 20 years. And while working across the country, both as an in house safety professional and a consultant, Jorge has identified several key characteristics for success in safety and bring a unique perspective into what works and what does it. His strategies have consistently improved safety outcomes, reduced risk and increased revenue for both employers and clients. He currently serves as the central florida safety leader for the International commercial builder provides consulting services to a select group of clients and offers leadership coaching to construction and safety professionals across several platforms. It is my privilege to bring in today, jorge the bilingual safety guy Torres to the genealogy show. The show is streaming now on safety FM dot like how are things, I mean, are you staying busy? What's going on? Yeah, pretty busy. Um, you know, looking at expanding projects and growing projects and new projects and uh, with word, you know, and little stuff going on on the side. I don't know about little stuff going on on the side. You seem to be uh, you seem to be busy in the social media world that we hang out in. Uh, you know, I try to share lessons I've learned throughout the years, you know, and help other people with questions that they may have. Well, I guess that's really, that's really a lot of the questions that I'll have today is really how did the journey start for you? Because it seems like you've done a little bit of everything. And then of course I'm gonna have all kinds of questions about the west coast, but we'll get to that here. You're in a bit, but how did the whole thing start? How did you decide, Hey, this is the path I want to go down. So, although, you know, if I started right here in florida, uh, way back in the late nineties, early two thousands, um, I was a paramedic working on site At the expansion to the Convention Center when they did face five and uh, never heard of safety as a career before. You know, it was a medic running ambulances and I had a chance to go work in an office and a construction site, you know, daylight hours no overnight and took that, you know, and uh thankfully I had a really good mentors, you know, where people there from the safety team that answered all my questions and pushed me and drove me into this day. They still mentor me uh, in my safety career. Yeah, I grew up in Puerto rico. Safety is not a thing in Puerto rico. So, you know, coming to uh mhm. Coming to florida, I was shocked to learn that there was a career in safety. Well, I mean, it's interesting that you mention that because actually the translation of, of safety from spanish to english as security is really the way that it works out. So, um it's always amazing when people start hearing about that. I, I think I could probably have some similarities to you in regards a background in Puerto rico. Um like I tell people I lived there for a little bit or I like how I like to word it is, I served my time there, but I wasn't trying to think. So nothing nothing against that. So how, so you grew up in Puerto rico and then you came to the states or I did, I did, I came to came to florida. I was in my mid twenties so I was already an adult. I you know like I said I started in para medicine and uh decided to move into the safety field. A lot of motivation, a lot of thankfully the company I was with at the time, they did a little bit of both, the medical needed safety. So I had an opportunity to grow in the safety field without having to change companies and they were very open to mentoring me and allowing me to pursue that dream. Um and then around the end of that project Um you know it was coming to an end and there was a much work left in the Florida area and had recently had some significant changes in my life and was open to travel and they took it seriously and I'll tell you one of the companies that you interacted with quite a bit um that you were there for about close to 10 years. I I've actually interacted with him as a client and I thought they were great. I thought they were great company. Uh I'll just talk about that they did this triage thing that they had set up and it was excellent um and I had set up in multiple companies and they did excellent work um in regards at least the interactions that I had with them throughout the years. So I always thought they were pretty good. Now if you were going to say anything bad, you're more than I would have, I would have been the guy doing the work on your site. Right? So I was I was the medic doing the triaging and making sure that things ST uh you know, not under the radar, you know, whatever it had to be, it had to be. But you know, helping the companies manage their claims and and their injuries. Right? So, uh pretty close relationship with the safety part of it and how it relates to record ability and claims and risk management. So it was an easy transition to move from the medical side to the safety side. And to me that the selling point was, you know, here I am treating injuries after the fact why not go on, try to prevent the injury from happening in the first place. Right? And and try to be an effect have an effect on the, on the occurrence rather than on the outcome. But so how did you look at that though? Because that has to really be a change because you're going from one standpoint where you're helping and you're treating now you're trying to prevent. I mean, there has to be a mind shift that occurs at that particular time as well because I look at it is okay, you're kind of their post event, if that makes sense. And then now all of a sudden you're trying to prevent these things. So how how do you do the switch? How does it go for you, where you go, Okay, this is gonna make sense? Well, you know, it wasn't so much of a shift as a, I really use what I learned in the medical field and triaging and treating injuries to to drive the message of, hey, here's what can happen if you don't follow the rules, right? If you don't do the things that you need to do to be safe. Um So I was able to relate to what the potential outcome could be when workers didn't quite follow the procedures that they were supposed to follow, right? So I didn't come from craft, so I didn't have that, that craft to craft connection that a lot of safety people tend to have. So I have to find a different way of connecting. And it was like, you know, I could either help you understand why to wear gloves or I can pick up the finger from the floor and then we can reattach it, right? So it was definitely a cell point for the, for the worker to uh, you know, to listen right? And to to listen to the suggestions that I brought to the table. So um it was, it was interesting um and it's always been a challenge, right? Working with, with craft and in construction. Um it's a lot of really hard working, tough guys, but if you have the right approach, I think you know, you can be significant in the way that you impact their lives, especially when you start talking about accidental dismemberment in the way that you know the point. So here, here's my question to you. So you go from this very, very humid. Um whether here in florida. And then did you want a change of scenery? Did the desert start calling you? I mean, explain that one to, because I'm so confused on, Well, uh had a pit stop in texas before I made it out, you know, all the way west. So I traded very humid florida to somewhat humid Dallas fort Worth. And then I ended up in, in the southwest. And um, I'll tell you what, I love the desert. I love the climate. It's, you know, there is something to a dry heat. Uh there is something to that. It's a lot easier to acclimate to and if you do the right things, a lot easier to not be bugged down with the heat as it happens in the human climates. But um, but I still do, I still love the desert, you know, Arizona is probably one of my favorite places. Um specifically the Flagstaff area. It's a beautiful, high desert environment. Um But yeah, I mean florida's florida, man, you've got parts, you got beaches, you got everything out here. So right. I mean you have a little bit of everything but I have to tell you if you said that you serve some time in texas, I had the blessing of doing the exact same thing when it comes to texas in particular, if you want the weather to be different, all you have to do is just wait a little bit because I mean it changes significantly right away you know and the Dallas Fort Worth area specifically that you go from, you know you can get up to 72 degrees. It will be 100 by by noon tornado warnings by four and then nice and clear night. Right? So uh it is a kind of weird weather as you go through the year. Um But you know I love texas man, I went my wife in texas. My son was born in texas. Yeah, you better keep it clean there for sure. You didn't like texas that might be around. It's interesting you say Dallas Fort Worth actually uh part of my I guess I'll say part of my training when it came to broadcasting was right there in Arlington. So it's it's kind of funny on how such a small uh so I mean it was right there next next to six flags, that's how specific um was that back back in the day, but many, many, many years ago. So who who even knows at this particular point of the schools even there. So let me ask a couple of strange things at what point do you start thinking or when does this thought start coming into your mind of the bilingual safety guy? Because you noticed that there was something missing inside of the industry. You notice that there's a lot of stuff for english speakers, just the way the way that it is. So at what point do you start analyzing? Hey, this is something that you're going to do in the future, that this is something that you want to actually move forward with and you're doing big steps with it. So what, at what point do you start thinking that this is something you need to start looking into? So, I mean, it wasn't a specific moment. I've had this thought about targeting or, or focusing on the hispanic population. I mean, it is the largest population of the largest group in the construction industry, unlike you said, I mean, it's, it's severely underserved when it comes to, you know, the approach, most education is created in english and then translated uh, often very importantly, right to, to try and meet the bilingual requirements uh, in the regulations. But when you start reading some of those documents, they don't make sense in any form of spanish. Right? So trying to find, you know, a way that we can communicate and drive that understanding with that hispanic community in the construction industry, I always thought that was important. Um, you know, you look at the research that's out there and you know, it highest impacted demographic and construction is hispanic population, um, the least educated uh, demographic in construction is the hispanic population. Right? So uh, that those two things kind of don't balance out in my mind. So uh, my thought was, you know, let's start looking at ways to engage with the hispanic community in the construction industry and and see how we can develop some resources for them to educate themselves. Um, you know, help employers that that want to focus or put a little more effort into that education piece to their hispanic, uh, workforce and uh, you know, make it something that is valuable and actually actionable right now, not just words on paper. So as you looked at this and this is something you started taking a dive into of. Okay, you're noticing the translations wrong. It can't just be words on paper, it needs to be actual as you're saying. When do you start looking at organizations that, can we talk about some of the places you've worked at or maybe even some of the people that you get to interact with, when, at what point do you think that quote unquote, they have it wrong where hey, I'm using google translate, I thought I was doing my due diligence by doing so, So at what point do you look at that and go, okay, this is really where the dive needs to start going. So I think the biggest effort has been in my current employer and uh you know it's it's the company is very focused on developing individuals, right? And and there's a very high level of care for for the workforce. And it's it's the first general contractor that I work that actually has self performed work as part of their uh you know as part of our group of people. Right? So uh this impacts our guys directly, right? It's not just you know, not not that it's any better or worse, you know, but it's not a g c looking at subcontractors, these are self performing craft that are directly hired by by the company. Um And you know it's a it's a large company, it's an international company um And again multiple markets across the south, the south and southwest and southeast with a high level of the hispanic population and in our ranks and you know, the ability to interact with other members of the leadership team across the organization that are open to this idea that we really need to focus on delivering the message correctly. Not just a message but the correct message in the correct way. Um So I think I think the biggest emphasis uh for this has come out in the next two years, 2.5 years or so for me. Um even though the idea has been there for for quite a while, I mean this has been the opportunity, I've had to actually focus and put time and effort into uh you know, engaging uh you know, a large organization in a way that it's creating some positive effects. Um so how would you look at this from a standpoint of an organization? Let's say, not bringing in an outsider, they're just they're just an organization, they're established, they're trying to do their thing. Do you think that there should be a good mixture of english spanish or whatever other languages are tied in in different kind of trainings? Should there be a mixture of them? Should there be like a pause for the cause where english for a moment, go into spanish, go into whatever other language and then come back or should they be can actually considered a two separate trainings? I think I think it should be separated, it is very difficult to, you know, stop midstream translate and then come back. Right, that's to me that's an easy way to lose your audience, right? You're you're gonna be losing half your audience half the time, Right? So, um I I prefer, and I think, you know, you look at OSHA's training requirements, right? So you can't do translation, For example, of a 10-hour class unless you make it 20 hours, right? And there's a reason for that and he said, you know, you lose your audience, you know, you if you stop while you're translating from one language to the other, the rest of your audience is completely disconnected and then by the time that you get them back that they've lost some of the learning opportunities. So um I think it's better to, to establish however many languages you have within your organization, whether it's, you know, spanish english, uh creole with south south florida, high Haitian population, so creoles big over there, um make sure that you have trainers that are capable of delivering the message in that language and focus on that language one training at a time well, and it's good that you say that because here's the thing, people tend to forget that the different dialects between spanish, because we're talking we can talk about spanish from spain, we can talk about spanish from Mexico, we can talk about from spanish from Puerto rico, where you, you might be able to listen to somebody and they say a word that means something entirely different to you. Um and I'm talking good, bad and indifferent because I've had some of those conversations um but where it can mean something entirely different, where maybe it needs to be a little bit tailored to what exactly is going on with the different languages inside of the organization. So as you're looking at this and even giving the, the example of the OSHA 10, when you look across the board, do you think that this is a big change in people's financial budget on how they have to do their training going forward? Is that gonna be a big difference? I mean, and what would you kind of take a look across the board with? I mean, especially when you start taking a look at what a price of an injury cost? Yeah, I think, I think there's, uh, it's an absolute return on investment to put the money into the, the, you know, using the, the right, um, training in the right language, right? Like you said, the injuries will cost far more than, um, providing the right training and the right language and, you know, and I say training and I'm cautious with that because, you know, a lot of, a lot of the assumption is that training as you stand in a room and you deliver a speech to a group of people in the language that they kind of sort of understand. I thought I was supposed to just read a manual, I thought that was all I was doing. I thought that was a training. Well, I've been to some of those, I wasn't sure, you know, and there was a time, you know, I can tell you, I slept through a lot of classes, uh, in my early years and safety. Right? So, um, you know, I think, you know, you have to take it to the field, right? So some of that is interacting with the group in the field and, you know, in, uh, in real time. And yes, there's absolutely a cost to it. But um, you know, I haven't done any research on it to put numbers, but I can pretty much, I would, I would venture to say that if we did the numbers, we could find that there is an absolute return on the investment. Um, just the cost of claims in the last few years has gone so far. Out of matter of fact, there's an article recently on, uh, safety and health magazine from this month that talks about the cost of, uh, claims in construction, specifically, uh, in the top 10 type of injuries. Right? So, so if it's something that I don't have the numbers in front of me, but there's something that, that a lot of people can go easily find and, and see the numbers, right? And we're talking, you know, it's in the billions of dollars. So investing, you know, hundreds of thousands to save billions. I think it's absolutely a good business decision. Well, and you would hope that more people would have that understanding of hundreds of thousands compared to millions or billions, you know, there's a huge difference there. So let me just ask some, some kind of oddball questions and keep in mind that I'm looking at you as a subject matter expert on this because hey, when, when you go by and you're calling yourself the bilingual safety guy, there's gonna be tons of questions of course. So here's the thing when you start hiring people and let's say for instance, their dominant language or their primary language is the dominant language, their primary language is spanish or another, another language is not english. Do you think that that particular, when it comes to that particular aspect, you should have people that speak that language outside of the training aspect, maybe the people that supervise them are able to speak that language or at least have a good understanding of it. I would love to have your perspective on that. Uh, you know, I think as long as they have identified a reliable translator, um, you know, a supervisor in the field, I don't think that it would be necessary for them to master multiple languages. Right? Just just as an organization. And this is something that the organization I'm with actually did in a project in texas, they created a translation team and these guys have different colored vests and they have, you know, the vest said, you know, if you need help translating, uh, you know, uh, tap my shoulder something along those lines and you know, as a supervisor reform and you're very superintendent on a project and there's something that you need to deliver to, you know, workers in the field or to a group, having a good reliable translator. I think that that feels that need, um, you know, it would be very difficult for any organization to be able to higher people in multiple positions that can manage multiple languages. Right? That's, that's not something that would be an easy fee anywhere in the world. I would think even countries that have multiple languages as a foundation, uh, I think the translation translator would be the key there. I mean, as you know, I don't get me wrong, I probably use google as much as the next person, but google translate is not an excellent source of getting information. I mean as you referenced earlier when you translate some of those things, that doesn't even make sense on how it translates and it's more of a dialect issue. It's not really a let's say quote unquote a translation problem because it did translate it correctly. The problem is it translated it word for word of what you actually wrote out. So Exactly. And even the translator service right on your phone that, that you speak into and it translates, you know, in real time. Um, you know, constructions are very technical field. Right? So we, we have words that are not, you know, their, their industry specific words. Right? So, um, you gotta look at background Puerto, rico, Mexico construction is typically, uh, you know, block and slabs, Right? We don't use a lot of drywall. So most of the hispanic population when you asked me what's right, Well, they'll either use a, uh, you know, poorly translated word like Larocca for sheetrock, um, which is not something that exists. Um, or just simply use the word sheetrock or drywall, you know, because that's how they learned it once they got stateside. Right? So, uh, with that said though it's a start. Right? So if you don't have another tool, using those translator tools, um, could benefit you. Right? And at the very least you'll get some laughs, right? And you break the ice and you start that communication. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that can be solve with simply, you know, sign language pointing and using broken language. Right? So that's the beauty of the human human condition, right? We, we seem to be able to understand each other when we have to write. So we're adaptable for sure. Very, very adaptable. Absolutely. Well, it's interesting that you bring it up, especially about particular words. I had a friend that was actually doing a speech and he used the world heard the word excuse me, troubleshooting And all of a sudden everything kind of came to a pause because no one, I guess they translated the way that it was supposed to be translated exactly. And nobody knew what he was talking about and all of a sudden not sure what they were supposed to do next. So I've run into that myself even in spanish. Right? So I'm Puerto Rican, my wife is mexican. So thankfully I understand most of the mexican dialect, but you know, central florida, We have people from all over latin american. So I've been doing a class using words that I was confident everyone understood and during breaks, someone would come up and say, hey, what does that mean in your world? Because it doesn't mean that in my world, you know, and it's always a funny moment, right? So if you if you take it as a funny moment, it just becomes a growing point. Well, talking about some of the classes you've done recently, I'll say earlier this year, I think it was made timeline you were at the A. C. F. S and you were doing a portion of an event for what they have safety day and you were talking about hispanic people inside of the workplace. Can you tell us some of our audience members a little bit more about that? Sure. So, you know, we talked, this is a whole panel of uh safety professionals from from across central florida, both hispanic and anglo, right? And that was by design. You know, we were speaking about how to connect with the hispanic population and we didn't want the audience to think, you know, well, you guys up there, all Hispanics. So you have that going for you. Uh, so we brought on board, you know, some some very, very well qualified uh non hispanic safety professionals that have been very successful in their careers with high hispanic populations in their companies and well, you know, the message that we wanted to deliver was, you know, as a hispanic population, right? People think of the hispanic population as as a homogeneous entity and it's not right, it's people from different countries, different backgrounds, different cultures, different education levels. So, you know, it's important for employers, supervisors to understand that, you know, when you're approaching hispanic, workers get to know them first, right, understand what their background is, where they come from and, you know, try to avoid generalizations, try to avoid, you know, I think one of the biggest mistakes that we make in leadership is treating everyone the same. I think that's that's not the right thing to do. I think we need to treat people uh, you know, based on what they expect to be treated as right. Um, and that's becoming more and more prevalent now in the safety world, right? The psychological safety of, you know, get to know the people you work with and talk to them as an individual, not as a member of a larger group, right? And so that was the message, right? It was very simply, you know, get to know your audience, uh, spend some time talking to your hispanic workers, you know, go have lunch with them, sit outside, bring your lunch and sit outside and just, you know, if if they may not understand you, but for a little bit, you'll be the gringo loco and everyone has to laugh and you know, eventually you end up having a good time and making that personal connection that helps you deliver that safety message well, and it's kind of interesting that, you know, when you bring this up, because this is essentially human relations, I mean we don't even have to go human resources if you want to get to know somebody better spend some time with them that be over the phone via chat as we do, as we're doing in some portions as we're doing virtual meetings just depending on what's going on. And it's interesting on that we have to sometimes go that far back and go, how do you want to, it's really boils down to the golden rule to an extent is really when you, if you really break it down. So as you, as you're going through this and you're talking in front of different crowds of people and you're having these discussions, are you getting the weird look, are you getting that, that whole conversation piece of like this seems way too basic. There's no, there's no way that, that's it. There has to be more, what, what are people telling you sometimes I mean? And you know, and it really is that basic, right? It's not complicated. It is just going back to like you said, you know, the golden rule and you know what I always thought as a child growing up is, you know, respect every person for who they are, right and not for who you want them or think they should be. Um, you know, I think that drives those relationships. Um, you know, the feedback we've received has been very positive, right? It's been primarily, hey, you know, great points. Um, you know, good reminders, right? Because this is not, it's not a new concept, right? This is things that people have known and are familiar with. But I think it's, it's worth reminding ourselves and on our peers that it really is that simple build their relation. Safety is about relationships, right? Take all the rules out, right? And if you don't have a good relationship with your workers, they're not gonna listen, They're not gonna, they're not gonna pay attention. Um, and you know, understanding that no one comes to work with the intent of getting injured, uh, you know, make that personal connection and understand what they need in order to not get injured because I guarantee you that's their goal as much as yours. So let me ask you an opinion question because this, this one is one of those that I always like to ask people because I'm always curious, do you think organizations should get rid of the safety department and really just kind of have a cultural group and I'm talking about culture for the organization opposed to being safety culture and different culture for the organization. I mean a few moments ago you were talking about psychological safety opposes this psychology overall. I mean, what do you look at what's your thought process and there's not a wrong answer. That's the great part about it because it's your thought process correct. You know? And so, you know, there was a time when I thought that way that, you know, I'll be happy when I don't have a job, right? That that that means that people are safe, but don't tell that in front of your wife, I always help from your wife. I'm worried. I'm worried for it to make me to stay at home, daddy. Uh, you know, but the reality of it is, you know, uh, you know, safety regulations are very complex, right? It it is a law and it is, it's a legal field and it could be a legal minefield. Um, and, you know, one of the things that I talk to people about, you know, think about any other law, federal, state or local, where lay people can make interpretations of that law, um, you know, safety is the only regulations where a person can look at the regulation as it's written, make a determination of how they're going to implement the programme and go with it, right? Try doing that with the seat belt, right? You don't interpret whether you wear a seat belt or not. You put it on and you get a ticket, right? So, uh, so, you know, it's, I think organizations need or benefit from having safety professionals on staff. Um, if nothing else, you know, we we bring perspective and we can bring clarity to those regulations and, and beyond that, we can help navigate the great, right there. There's a lot of gray in safety. Um, so how do you navigate that gray without getting into legal trouble? Without increasing the risk beyond what it's acceptable. Right? So helping make those decisions on acceptable tolerable risk versus intolerable risk. Um, I think that's what we bring to the table more than anything. Right? And You know, the conversations that I have with my project teams, that's what they come to me for. You know, they know safety. We, we've done a great job of teaching safety to project teams, right? We put them through 10 hours, 30 hours safety training, accident investigator, all kinds of things. So we've done a great job in educating them on the foundations of safety, but when it comes to the gray, that's where they really reach out and say, hey, here's what I have here is what I think, What am I missing, right? And, and having that experience that comes with a safety professional that's been in the field for a while. Um, it really helps bring those, those perspectives and, and you know, examples from past lives and, and things that have worked and not worked in the past. And then we can make educated decisions, right? Um, are we going to eliminate all risk? Absolutely not right. But we can make an educated decision about how much risk we can take. So now that you're bringing that up, Our conversation is already happening inside of the field, at least on the portion that you're seeing where people are understanding in spanish about behavior based safety compared to lean or six sigma or a hop or anything along those lines. Are those conversations already taking those deeper dives? Are they still kind of at infancy stages where safety safety? Um I think it depends on what organization you look at, right? And I can only speak to the organizations that I have been involved with. Um and I can say that it's it's not there, I mean it's safety safety uh you know right now where it is um constructions are hard not to crack because it's so dynamic, a lot of these initiatives tend to start and develop in in general industry, manufacturing, manufacturing, chemical settings where there's a lot more stability. The processes are very much the same day over day, over day and there's time to go out and test these theories and initiatives, construction is very difficult. You know, you start talking about HOP and and you know, psychological safety and behavior based safety and you know, the minute you think you're making ground you're holding changes, right? Big project hands, everyone gets laid off next week, everyone's do right and now you're gonna start again. So um you know, I think the conversations are there, I think, I don't think it's there's an ignorance of the um the aspects of safety that are the different thought processes behind safety in the construction industry. I think it's just difficult to pick one and move on because it's so dynamic, it lent itself to, well, let's try something now this week, right? Let's try something else next week and that can be overwhelming. Um, what I've seen a lot in, in the companies I've been involved with is that uh, you know, you haven't set the tone on one initiative and you know, you're already looking at the next, right? Uh you know, trying to get to that target zero thing, right? And uh oh, you so said it, you so said the targets, I wanted to hear, you know, I think, I think that's the big driver out there In the construction industry, still the idea of 0? Um, you know, and, and you know, well, and you know, a lot of safety professionals are starting to move away from that idea. Um, most companies want to do, you know, they talk about smart goals, right? Set some smart goals. And Target zero is as far from a smart goal as you can get? Well, I mean, I always think it's interesting because I heard a guy say this one time and I thought it was genius on how he said it. What happens after the one incident then? Where do you go, where do you go from there? I mean, do you call it quits? I mean is everything like, hey, and I mean, and I know it sounds terrible to say, Hey, target 10. I mean, nobody wants to hear that. Let's just take 10 people out and then, which 10 are they? If we can point them out, but it's always just good. I think the goal is, you know, don't focus on the number, right? Focus on what you're doing right. If you're doing, if you're making the right decisions, if you're approaching work the right way. If you're evaluating the risk and targeting the behaviors that are behind the risk, zero will happen, right. Uh, you know what I talked to guys about, You know, when, when I teach or when I talk about, you know, leadership and, and talk to superintendent and uh, you know, project teams is look think back and you know, did you get hurt today? You know, most people answer no. Did you heard yesterday? No. You know, and most people can go back several weeks without getting hurt. So, well there you go. You, you, you got zero every day. Are you thinking about zero every day. Right. And if you're not, then don't worry about it. Right? Do the things that will get you to the end of the day with no injury. Right? If you can do that every day, then zero just happens right. And you know what? If it doesn't happen, it's not the other world, right? We've, we've manage the risk to a point where we're reducing the likelihood of injuries and if they do happen, we're reducing the severity of those injuries, right? So that I think that's the goal, right? Hurt less people and if they do get hurt, hurt them less badly, right. I mean, I mean, I just think it's always interesting at one point in your career, if you've been doing this for a while, did you ever think that you'd be sitting around and talking about an ankle sprain? Somebody hurting their arm? That, that wasn't the conversation 20 years ago, it was somebody either got dismembered. I won't go into more graphic details, which is easily for me to do. Um, but those were the conversations in the past and now it's like, okay, somebody twist their ankle. Hey, I'd rather have that conversation everyday opposed to something worse. Absolutely. You know, and so one of the things that ties into that, right? So incident reporting, right? Near miss reporting is critical in that, right? So we can't, we can't eliminate injuries if we don't know where they're coming from. And you know, I always find it interesting when I talked to two companies and so what we want, we want all the incidents to be reported. And as well, are you sure? Because you're gonna see a spike, Right? So you've been cruising pretty well with very little incidents and now you're gonna put emphasis on reporting? So get ready for a roller coaster, right? And inevitably I get that calls, Hey, how come we have 15 incidents last week as well, because we told them to report everything doesn't mean that you had led less last month. No, they just weren't reported, right, especially when they're small. You know, things that could potentially happen on a day to day basis they're just not being reported, Right? So if we can if we can get to the reporting right, and really put emphasis on reporting those incidents, um even then you're mrs right, then we can really start looking at what conditions and what processes are leading to those near misses. Um, one of the things that, that I focus on, its, you know, typically it's not so much the worker that that is quote unquote at fault. It's a process, right? It's typically a process issue that places the worker in a position where they're going to make the wrong choice, right? So if we address the process than we support the worker in making the right choices, right? And is it perfect? No, it's it's not a panacea right? It's people, some people will make bad choices, no matter what we do, but we're reducing the number of those people and limiting their effect, right? I mean, and it's exactly what you said. It's the actual employee team member triggers a latent condition inside of the organization that triggers X failure. Just really what it boils down to. What I always think is interesting is when people go in and ask people, ask people that work there, go where is the next failure going to occur there? Pretty much willing to kind of nail it exactly to the spot. They can tell you well, we've seen an issue in this department and this is what we can fix going for it. It's always amazing on, on how workers are so intertwined on what's going on inside of the organizations. They know what's going on in the world. I mean, if you really want to know how your safety programs do and talk to your workers, you know, management tends to, you know, think that everything's great, right? You know, they associate the absence of injury with the presence of safety. Um, and we all know that that's not that's not necessarily true, right? So I've always thought, well, it depends on what clubhouse urine, I mean, depending on what side of the clubhouse here you might think differently. Uh, but again, I think this is where the language size back in, Right? So, so being able to communicate with your workers with your workforce, um, in a way that they feel comfortable communicating right? Um, so being able to, to bridge that language gap, uh, becomes very helpful in identifying those safety gaps, right? Because they do know they will tell you exactly where they are. Um, and not only that they will tell you exactly what they can do to make it better. So we have to really be out there talking, engaging our workforce listening to them putting value in the feedback that they give us, right. Uh No. We're not gonna raffle a truck every year, right? That's not part of the program. The budget. Yeah, But we're gonna absolutely, you know, build a better ramp, right? If just to make something simple. Right? So those little small increments that they're asking for don't cost a lot. Uh They have a big return on investment, not just on the actual safety of the worker, but in the mindset that they see that the organization is listening and is taking action on what they're suggesting. That's money in the bank. Why? And I think that that is our money in the bank for this episode. I appreciate everything that you've done. Now. If people want to know more about what you have going on work and they go to find out more information. Ah they can visit my website. Uh The bilingual safety guy. Uh Dot com or jorge Torres CSP dot com goes to the same place. Uh Can follow me on linkedin and instagram and facebook. Now, are you are you pretty active on linkedin? Where if they click on you, Do you do you accept strangers? I always ask that question because I never know. I do. I do. I I accept just about everyone. You know, hold on. What's the default where they don't fall into the category you said just about if there's no relation to safety or you know, like getting getting a request from someone overseas that works in, I don't know marketing. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't know that there's much, much connection there. Um, but yeah, I mean anyone definitely, you know, any, anyone that just send your message right when when you linked in at a message and say, hey, you know, I heard you on the radio with with J and you know, we'd love to connect. You know, just give me something that's not just a marketing hit, you know? Uh Yeah, but I am pretty active. And even then, I mean, you know, I do respond to uh to uh vendors in some occasions. I just, you know, I'll take this for, you know, I don't make purchasing decisions, right? But uh, but I'm happy to connect right and, and and chat and and give you some perspective. But uh, no, and I appreciate you having me on the show. J have been a big fan and listen to you frequently. Uh, so it's an honor to be here. Uh Oh, don't tell me that I'll turn right. Well, I appreciate you coming on. I appreciate the time that I got to spend with JORGE Torres today on the J allen show. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did just for some news and information to share with you if you haven't come out to safety FM Plus in a while I'm going to. You encourage you to do so. We're taking these deep dives all of a sudden inside of the world of psychology and some people might be thinking, well, why are you doing that? Well, because psychology blaze into a little bit of everything. And I figured that maybe we should start talking a little bit more about psychology because it ties so well into our world of safety. If you want to find out more information, all you have to do is go to safety. F M P L U S at safety. FM Plus dot com to find out more information on what we have going on over there. Anyways, thank you for taking a listen to what we had going on today because we can do what we do here without you. The most important part the listener. This will bring another episode of the J ALLen show to an end. I'll see you next time. Once more of the J allen show to safety FM dot com. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host in its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited in dated. Open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the physician of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, jay Allen.