In this episode, Pan, whose incredible research and analytical skills have enabled her to build an impressive portfolio holding over 26 properties so far, explains how she set and met her goal to retire her parents comfortably, retired from her own corporate career early to help people achieve their financial freedom, and she shares the simple trick to buying property right, giving you the tools to do the same.

Timestamps:
2:33 | DATA SKILLS HAVE PLAYED A VITAL ROLE IN HER SUCCESS
8:10 | LIANNA SAID GOODBYE TO HER DAD FOR SEVEN YEARS
9:27 | HER PARENTS’ SACRIFICE FUELLED LIANNA’S MOTIVATION TO ACHIEVE FINANCIAL FREEDOM.
14:27 | LIANNA STUDIED HARD TO ACHIEVE TOP GRADES.
16:37 | STUDYING FULL TIME AND WORKING THREE JOBS, HOW DID SHE MANAGE IT ALL?
18:25 | PAN GRABBED EVERY OPPORTUNITY SHE COULD TO BETTER HER FINANCIAL POSITION.
23:48 | SHE SOON REALIZED SHE NEEDED TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX
26:14 | PAN USED HER DATA SKILLS TO DETERMINE IF AN INVESTMENT WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL.
27:45 | LIANNA HAD TO OVERCOME A LOT OF FEAR BEFORE SHE WAS ABLE TO COMMIT TO AN INVESTMENT.
31:06 | FROM $400,000 TO A MILLION.
33:12 | PAN’S RENOVATION STRATEGY DIDN’T WORK OUT AS PLANNED.
34:28 | SHE WENT THROUGH MANY SLEEPLESS NIGHTS DURING THIS TIME.

Resources and Links:

(23:59) Very quickly, I did the math and sort of realised that wasn't going to be it. And it was just quite a moment of, I guess, revelation. You’ve got to do something else. 

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with Property Investor and retired Actuary Lianna Pan, whose incredible research and analytical skills have enabled her to build an impressive portfolio holding over 26 properties. Lianna explains how she retired from her corporate career early, shares the simple trick to buying property, giving you the tools to do the same. 

Pan has spent the last decade setting herself goals and working toward creating financial freedom through her impressive portfolio. Now that she’s achieved just that, she’s working on some new goals. 

(0:30) I've actually built a portfolio of about 26 properties now over the past 12 years, and retired myself from my corporate career as an actuary. And now with ‘Freedom Property Investors’, which I've co-founded with my business partner, Scott Kuru, we're helping a community, the community of investors, to do the same as well.

Tyrone Shum: 

It sounds like great work. So how does Pan spend her time day to day?

(1:14) A typical day would look like, I mean, data plays a big part in my day. So I worked for example, I would have yesterday spent a lot of time learning about the budget and the implications that I have on the economy and the property markets, I'll do a fair bit of reading and research in a day.

(1:35) And then also, I have a research team that helps assist me with all of that stuff. So I work with them on a day to day basis. And negotiations are also a big part of my day as well, which is something I really enjoy. So, you know, to get fantastic deals for our members. Yeah, so that will probably be a typical day. 

Tyrone Shum: 

(1:58) That's amazing. And there's so much data, especially in this information overload. How do you pull this data together, and then go, ‘Okay, that's where we should be heading’?

Lianna Pan:  

(2:12) I'm actually extremely grateful for the career that I had as a data scientist. And it’s actually our whole job. And our training is about how to make sense of a lot of data and very complex data and how to actually understand and find patterns within that data. And using that to actually predict the future.

(2:33) So I used to work for insurance companies, like, QBE and Almay, and so forth. And banks, such as Suncorp, and lots of financial institutions, and we were hired to do just that, to actually predict what is going to happen if for example, we do premium, we will be helping insurance companies set the right premiums for motor insurance or content insurance, for example. 

(3:06) So a lot of life modelling is involved. And understanding data is a big part of our role. So that skill set really has helped me enormously when you can apply that to any context and then decide to apply that to property.

Taking a step back, we discuss Pan’s upbringing and childhood experience. 

(3:39) I was born in China, actually in the southern part of China, and I was in China until I was about 14. And then I came to Australia. And I came from a very, very humble beginning. My parents, just to tell you an interesting story, my parents when they first got married in China, they actually didn't have anywhere to live. 

(4:03) And so my grandparents took them in and built a room on top of my grandparents' really old house. So there was no permit, nothing like that. They just built like a makeshift room. And my parents thought it was gonna be temporary. But I ended up growing up there. I spent probably over 10 years there. And I had a great childhood. 

(4:30) I mean, my parents gave me everything they could but I didn't understand, you know, that was what poverty meant, until much later on in life. But that was our beginning. I still remember as a little toddler, I was playing in that room and running around in that room and I remember feeling that the building was shaking. One of my very clear childhood memories.

Tyrone Shum: 

(4:56) Wow. So you grew up and went to school in China as well. Which part of China in the south did you say?

Lianna Pan: 

(5:03) Fujian Province? Not far from Taiwan actually.

Tyrone Shum: 

(5:07) I know where that is. My parents have gone back there, my mother is originally from Quanzhou. So yeah, that's why I've been back there to visit and have a look into going back to those Provinces. It's just history because we like to find out where our background comes from, too. It's obviously changed a lot. And there's been, you know, so much growth there as well. Have you been back there since then?

(5:30) Yeah, I've been back a few times. And the city that I grew up in is unrecognisable today. It’s just amazing how much can change in a short space of time in China.

(5:44) So much,  as I guess China has moved very, very fast in such a short period of time, it's grown exponentially, you know, with that kind of growth. So growing up in China, and also going to school, tell me a little bit more about your schooling, what was that like?

(6:00) Yes, the thing with being in China, all the parents, they wanted the best for their children. And mine were no exception. So from a very, very young age, my mom, for example, really just taught me how you’ve got to really apply yourself and study hard. So I just remember that I was always studying as a little kid.

(6:26) And I was always a very good student, very well behaved and good student at school. So that's probably one of the biggest things, and I'm extremely grateful for my parents for instilling that sort of discipline in myself at a young age.

Tyrone Shum:  

Pan was well equipped with some great habits at a young age, which came in handy when she moved to Australia. 

Lianna Pan: 

(7:07) I went to high school in China. Then, obviously, halfway through that, I came to Australia and had to study a whole new language, and went to language school for about a year, before enrolling in the mainstream high school. So it was a very interesting and difficult time transitioning, but I guess it's the same thing most migrant children will go through. 

(7:34) Do you know why? Why did your parents and your whole family migrate to Australia?

(7:39) Yeah, so this goes back to how my parents really wanted to create a better financial future. And provide me with more opportunity as a single child, provide me with more opportunities in the future. So when I was seven, my parents made a really tough decision to send my dad out to Australia. They had to borrow money from friends and family to send him out.

(8:10) And basically, my dad worked extremely hard in Australia, we didn't see him for seven years. Like he didn't literally come back for seven years. And he would be working like three jobs, just to save up as much as he possibly could and send all the money home. So it was a very difficult, challenging time for our family. 

(8:30) And I always remember, like, you know, one of the things I always remember was that my dad would write letters home all the time. And so for seven long years, my father would write letters home all the time, like, every couple of days, we'd get a letter from him. And my mom would actually read it to herself first, but then read it to the whole family. 

(8:58) So that was kind of like a ritual for us, for me growing up, and I would often catch my mom every now and then just reading the letters, and crying to herself. So really, it was a tough time, especially for my parents, there was just so much sacrifice. Today, I can't imagine sacrificing so much, but this is something that I guess my parents generation goes through. 

(9:27) And so I've always been very, very grateful for what they've done for me and from a very early age have really wanted to make them proud. So you know, by studying really hard and doing the best I could, and also getting on to a great career so that they don't have to worry about retirement, and finding ways in which I can create financial freedom for my parents and myself.

(9:59) Yep. So I set them up for retirement. That was a really big goal and motivation for me for the past 10-15 years. 

(10:08) Yeah. And you've definitely achieved that, you know, it's so great to hear that story. It's amazing what you’ve been able to achieve, and also what your parents have also been able to achieve for you. Maybe this would be sort of an ignorant question for me to ask about, but were there phones besides you? Did you ever get to talk to your father during the seven years?

(10:26) Yes, yes. If you remember, back in the 90s, there were no mobile phones or anything like that. And so every week or two weeks, my dad had to actually queue up at the local Telstra phone booth, just unimaginable these days, but the international phone calls used to be so expensive, that's why he used to write.

(10:51) And he would allow himself like, you know, a few minutes each week. And queue up, like all the other people that were doing similar things and just to talk to my family. So there was always a very emotional time. Like it was a special occasion, once a week that we get to talk to our dad.

(11:11) Yeah, it's heartbreaking for me just to hear that, I mean, it brings tears to my eyes. I can't imagine how your mom must have felt for quite a long time, you know, not to have your father with you side by side. But just to be able to talk, you know, that once a week or twice every two weeks or so it's, it's quite touching to be able to hear that story as well. 

Lianna Pan: 

(11:38) Yeah absolutely. And if you look at my parents today, they are still so in love after, what, 30 [or] 40 years of marriage. It's incredible. And because they've been through so much together that you know, I actually found that an incredibly strong bond. 

Tyrone Shum:  

After an inspiring sacrifice, the family eventually reconnected when she and her mum immigrated to Australia. 

(12:20) So I've always been in Sydney. Ever since I moved to Australia. I've always been in Sydney. So yeah, that's where my dad was. And he was working at a factory as well. So yeah, he was a boilermaker.

Tyrone Shum: 

(12:34) Oh, okay. Explain to me, I haven't heard boilermaker for a long, long time. But maybe some of the audience might never know what that is. But explain to people what kind of job is that?

(12:45) It's like welding. So it's usually big steel works. I can't remember the factory that he used to work for a very long time in. And it was, like, big industrial buildings. Yeah, I can't really remember the name. But that's the work that he used to do. Lots of manual labour, like very heavy lifting, you know? So it was tough. It was tough. 

Tyrone Shum: 

(13:19) And mum, did she look after you, take you to school? And did she also go to work as well? 

(13:25) Yeah, she used to work as well, and just sort of did whatever she could get. Whatever work she could get. And when I was 18 [or] 19. They started a little business, a convenience store. And they must have been in that business for more than 10 [or] 15 years. Just until before they retired.

Being a non-English speaker, to begin with, Pan struggled to find her feet in high school. 

Lianna Pan: 

(14:04) I think the transitioning cultural shock was the first part of it. But with my high school, I think that they have really good programmes for immigrant children. So they really took good care of us. So it made the transition easier.

(14:27) And then it was just about again, how I wanted to do really well out of high school. So that academic learning was my main focus. I remember going to weekend schools to improve my learning. And I took up like four subjects when I was in year 10, for example.

(14:52) Year 12 subjects I did maths olympiad, physics olympiad, all that sort of stuff. Just trying to do the best I could. And I really got into it. And, you know, I had always been a very keen student and I felt that it was really rewarding for me as well to get into the habit of learning. It became a passion and a hobby.

Pan took her academic strengths further and enrolled in a university degree, but going from high school to university level wasn't as effortless as she had imagined. 

Lianna Pan:  

(15:46) Yeah, it was an interesting transition. I think actuarial science was one of those things where you have to get like 99 or above just to get into that degree. So you came from an environment where you’re basically the top of your class all the time, to an environment where everybody was, like, really amazing. 

(16:06) So you're competing with that. And so that was a bit of a shock. That took time to transition. But also, because I was very competitive, it just really made me step up so at university, I also set myself a goal that I really wanted to get myself started on, you know, saving as much as I could, as well. So I was also working three part time jobs at university. 

(16:37) And luckily, the university gave me a lot of opportunities. So I was working as a tutor, I was tutoring younger students, year one students and so forth. Because by that time, I had done a lot of uni work before coming into uni. Especially in the area of maths. So that that worked out really well for me. 

(16:57) And, you know, I was just saving as hard as I could, because I wanted to set myself up as quickly as possible and set my parents up. That was another thing my parents taught me is the discipline of saving. And that's something, again, I’m incredibly grateful for.

Coming up after the break, we learn about Pan’s transition into the working world. 

(21:30) Yeah, it was pretty tough. I remember the time that they basically only really looked at applicants with a certain grade point average as well. So it was a tough job market.

We discuss her motivations to invest around the time of the Global Financial Crisis.

(25:42) And so what I was looking at, at the time, was just from historical data, you can see there are certain patterns in that data. And I knew that back in 2008, especially at the onset of GFC, it was a great time to invest.

We find out what finally made her overcome her fear of investing.

(28:01) And one of my mentors actually said to me, ‘Hey, Lianna, have you noticed that you're always looking for reasons not to buy? Have you ever thought about why you do it? 

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

During her university days, Pan studied a full-time triple-degree and managed to work three jobs while doing it. She tells us a little about those jobs. 

Lianna Pan: 

(17:43) One was as a tutor. So at uni, you could tutor classes. So when I was in year two in uni, for example, I was tutoring year one students, and so forth. And so I did three degrees as well, which really helped. So that meant I could choose to do lots of different disciplines.

(18:06) I was tutoring some statistics, economics and math subjects at uni. And that really supported me because I could just easily go to one of my lectures and then finish my lecture or go to a tutoring class. So that was one. The other one was actually as IT support at the university library.

(18:25) And that really helped as well. So there were just quite a few tutoring jobs for different departments. And then also IT support. So it really helped because all my jobs were actually on campus. So it made things a lot easier, otherwise, it would have been pretty difficult. At one stage, I think in year two, I was doing about 60 hour weeks. And I wouldn't have been able to do that if it wasn't on campus. 

(18:54) I was gonna say imagining the amount of travelling you would have to go from. That's phenomenal. I mean, how did you manage to fit three degrees in? You're amazing.

(19:08) Yeah. I was just basically a massive nerd.

(19:16) Oh, you've done exceptionally well. How long were you at university for?

(19:22) Four years.

(19:23) So wow, okay. Yeah, that's exceptional. I mean, I mostly hear of people doing double degrees in five years, you’ve managed to do three degrees in four years. So you're obviously you know, at that level, where you're able to install these things very quickly, and be able to put them through to memory.

(19:39) Oh, I cram a fair bit of stuff in. But you know, like a normal degree will give you maybe 12 contact hours or something. So you can actually do double or triple degrees, and that would just mean double, triple the contact hours. It’s hard. But you can still make things work through use of your time.

Tyrone Shum: 

After years of hard work, and coming out of university with plenty of options, Pan settled into a career as an Actuary. 

(20:31) Um, the actuary degree was the main thing I did. I did a finance degree and computer science and it really helped me because you made all these skills. An actuary degree is multidisciplinary. So the whole idea with training was basically statistician's, economists, and a whole lot of disciplines rolled into one. 

(20:55) And we need to have programming skills as well. So the more you know about this, the better equipped you for a career. So I started with QBE. It was my first job as a graduate. So I went straight into that from university, and then I’ve just been on the actuarial career ever since.

(21:17) Was there like a Graduate Programme? Or was that like a full time graduate role?

(21:20) It was just a full time role. 

(21:22) Was it hard to actually get into work after you finished your studies? Because I guess the job market going back then to what, 10 [or] 20 years ago, was probably not great.

(21:30) Yeah, it was pretty tough. I remember the time that they basically only really looked at applicants with a certain grade point average as well. So it was a tough job market. I think it is tougher now. Just because there's a lot of consolidation of the insurance companies and there's actually more supply. Like there's more graduates coming out. But it was tough, even back then. Yeah.

(22:02) Which year was that when you graduated and went into QBE? 

(22:06) I think it was 2006 or 2007? I think it was just a year or so before the GFC. Yeah, yeah. But I was lucky. I got in before the GFC.

Tyrone Shum:  

(22:17) I’m just asking because I graduated probably about a few years before you in computer science. And even then, it was a struggle to try and get anything in IT, because you know, with the tech boom, and everything kind of changing, it was all impacted. And then I assume that the market was just you know, a bit buoyant at that time. That's fascinating. So you were working at QBE? How long did you stay there for?

Lianna Pan: 

(22:37) A couple of years? Yeah. And then I moved on to other insurance companies. And I just sort of moved between insurance companies and banks.

Tyrone Shum: 

(22:46) Yeah. So overall, how long did your career span within the actuary and cycle data science area?

(22:53) So about seven years? Between seven and eight years? Yeah.

Moving on to property, Pan shares the story of her first investment. 

Lianna Pan:  

(23:16) I started investing property in 2008, actually, in the middle of the GFC.

(23:23) One year into the workforce?

(23:24) Yep. Yeah, about a year. So I was just like, wanting to save enough. And at that point in time being an actuary as well, one of the things we actually learn is analysing all asset classes. That's just basically what we do with our learning. So I did that as well, because very quickly you kind of learn that  you can't save your way to financial freedom. 

(23:48) If you do the projections, you know, superannuation wasn't enough, they’re just putting money aside and putting it into a deposit, that wasn't going to be enough. Very quickly, I did the math and sort of realised that wasn't going to be it. And it was just quite a moment of, I guess, revelation. You’ve got to do something else. 

(24:08) And because I was already in the world of assets and investments and stuff that really made me aware of all the options out there, I analysed all the different options, and property was hands down the best by far, from a numbers perspective. I'll get into that a little bit later. But yeah, that's that's basically what I thought, that I gotta save for my first deposit.

Tyrone Shum:  

(24:35) It's really interesting, because I think you're the first person to actually point that out. Like, you're very logical, you're data driven, and you've actually worked it all out. A lot of people just go, ‘I gotta get a property because it's my first time’. Or, ‘I gotta get a property because I need to plan for the future’, but you're able to analyse and see all the different asset classes, you know, from shares to businesses and so forth. 

(24:54) And I guess the power of having that knowledge was that you're driven by the data which you know, is obviously what's happened there. So looking at purchasing that first property in 2008 during the GFC, maybe just share with us a little bit of background. How did you find this first property? You know, where did you start? Because it was all new to you, wasn’t it?

(25:15) Yeah, the property it was new, the principles of the analytics behind it, which is actually a pricing, or like a prediction methodology, which are developed over the years and refined and perfected. That wasn't new to me, because it's just about applying the same principles, but to a different asset class. 

(25:42) And so what I was looking at, at the time, was just from historical data, you can see there are certain patterns in that data. And I knew that back in 2008, especially at the onset of GFC, it was a great time to invest. So one of the things you'll find in historical data, and not just in Australia, but overseas as well, is that every economic shock produces a property boom, or, there's a property boom that follows every economic shock. 

(26:14) And I think, you know, if you look at our historical housing data, going back 100 years, it happens every single time. It happened right after the Spanish Flu in the 1900s, for example. There was a property boom after that, and I was like, ‘Wow, that was an amazing, amazing discovery’. And that was the right time to get into the property market. So I knew that it was the right time. And it was just about doing a lot of property research.

(26:44) And also just having the guts to make the first step right, knowing the numbers, knowing all that theory behind you, there's still a whole other piece of work, which is mindset, pushing yourself to do it. So I've had from day one, I thought to myself, look, I wanted to learn from people that already did it, and could really have the results that I wanted to achieve.

(27:10) And no offence to anyone of my, you know, parents or family or friends. But there was no one in my peer group or family that I could model from. And so I actually spent $10,000 of my hard earned savings and paid for a lot of mentoring and coaching. 

(27:30) Yeah, more one-on-one mentoring coaching rather than just attending courses and stuff, because I needed someone to sort of knock me over the head or like, bang my head against the wall and say, ‘Hey, you need to act, not just prepare to act.’

(27:45) And I remember conversations I had with my mentor after like, I passed up dozens of properties, even though I knew it was the right time to invest. But for some reason, I always managed to find reasons to not go ahead with one property because it wasn't perfect.

(28:01) And one of my mentors actually said to me, ‘Hey, Lianna, have you noticed that you're always looking for reasons not to buy? Have you ever thought about why you do it? It's like you’re asking a million questions, but a lot of them are not relevant and they don't tie into a big picture at all’. 

(28:21) And really got me thinking, it sort of hit me over the head and got me thinking that, wow, this is just my fear manifesting itself. And it was. I could be forgiven for feeling fear, because you just have to turn on the TV at that time in 2008.

(28:41) And it's just all doom and gloom, there was just no good news whatsoever. There were so many, so called foreign experts coming to our country and saying that we were going to face a property crash in Australia, you know, 30-40% drop, and even the cab driver was telling you not to invest, right? So you could be forgiven for feeling fearful. But the end of the story is like, you know, like Warren Buffett says, when everyone is fearful, be greedy. 

So faced with a lot of fear and apprehension, how and when did Pan eventually take the plunge? 

(29:21) Yeah, it was just after a lot of passing on opportunities, and my mentor really talking some sense into me. And if I had the opportunity today, I would have gone back and bought as much as I could afford. And I settled on that property, and really, fundamentally ticked all the boxes. So I just took that step to get onto that property journey and never look back.

Tyrone Shum: 

(29:49) Excellent. And what was that first property that you purchased?

Lianna Pan: 

(29:52) It was in Sydney. And so Sydney at that time happened to be one of the cities that was just perfect timing. I was considering Melbourne, but because I lived in Sydney I took advantage of that.

(30:09) Are you able to share with us the details of that first property? What was the property? Why that particular property? Can you give us a background story behind it?

(30:18) It was just a property that ticked all the boxes in terms of the research, massive gentrification going through that area, lots of demographic change, population growth, demographic change, as well. And it was actually undergoing a lot of infrastructure. 

(30:38) So rejuvenation, which actually combined with gentrification, it was also a very undervalued suburb compared to all the surrounding suburbs. So it ticked a lot of boxes. And it just so happened, it was at a time when, you know, some developers were having to liquidate their properties, that was a brand new property just built, and that particular developer was having some cash flow issues, and probably not an uncommon problem during the GFC.

(31:06) But it actually opened up the world of opportunities to negotiate some good discounts. So I got a little bit of a discount on that on the deal as well. So you know, everything really added up. Was it the perfect property? No, I didn't like the colour of the kitchen. You know, the aspect wasn't perfect, but who cares? That property, I paid $400,000 for that property. It was like a two bedroom townhouse or something. And today, it's worth over a million dollars.

Tyrone Shum: 

Within her property journey, Pan experienced a few ups and downs, along the way. She shares these challenging moments.

(32:12) It is quite an interesting journey. So I think I was very disciplined, I was very cautious for the first few years. And then I wanted to try, you know, after a few years, I just wanted to try different strategies as well. So I tried to explore different paths, you know, renovation, subdivisions and developments.

(32:32) So I've actually tried all of that. And what I did was, like, I guess at one point I got sort of a little bit lazy, or a little bit cocky if you like, thinking, ‘Oh, well, I've got successes from my acquisition so far, you know, I should be able to just do that in other strategies’.

(32:51) You know, one thing I realised was that when I didn't spend as much time upfront, doing the research, and really understanding timing the market, the right location at the right time, and I just, you know, bought something which I thought, well, I can renovate and flip it quickly. 

(33:12) I've got mentors and coaches in that space as well, who’re very good at that particular skill, but then not necessarily good at the bigger picture, understanding the research part of it. So even when you execute that strategy really well like in a renovation… so I did renovations, and made no money out of it, I did renovations and lost money.

(33:38) And, at the end of the day, the biggest lesson there was not buying the property at the right time, the right location. And another big mistake is actually flipping those properties. So not holding on to them for the long term thinking, you know, because a lot of people that are going to you probably have seen these coaching courses, there's so many coaching courses, which I actually went to at the time as well and actually follow their advice.

(34:06) So one of the things that we're saying is, it doesn't matter what market you're buying a property in, if you execute these values as strategies like renovations and developments, you always make money. That's not true. It is not true at all. It was just incredibly stressful because I was working full time as well. Oh, it was so stressful.

(34:28) And forget about 60 hours, you're basically working non stop, because you're working full time, then you got to work on your project, which will be renovations or developments or whatever they may be. And there's a lot of risks involved there as well. So, you know, what if the council doesn't approve what you proposed? And there was just so much of that going on and so many uncertainties and risks. 

So inspired by Lianna Pan’s journey, we will keep the conversation going in a future episode of Property Investory, where we discuss her drive in helping people achieve their financial freedom through her business’ community...

(19:35) So it's that in itself is an extremely rewarding experience. There's nothing as satisfying as seeing your predictions coming true time and time again and really helping not just me, personally but now members of the freedom community as well.

We dive into her ‘aha’ moments...

(3:20) And the other one is just the strategy that we talked about. So how do you get properties to pay themselves off. And that is a huge aha moment for me, as well.

She shares with listeners the tips and tricks which helped her along in her journey. 

(5:19) This is, again, a very important thing. From day one, I bought properties that were cash flow positive. So they all were brand new properties, which meant that they would maximise depreciation benefits, tax refunds...

And that’s next time in a future episode of Property Investory.