this show is brought to you by safetyFM streaming safetyfm.live coming to you live from the safety FM headquarters in Orlando, Florida Broadcasting live from the rain Total body Fuel Studios. This is A J. Allen show. This is what we have deemed your show. We talk about the things that you care about. I am the host of this little lovely endeavor. My name is Jay Allen. Thank you for coming back once again to the G l and Show to take a listen to what we have going on.  Hopefully things air going extremely well on your side of the planet. Over the last few weeks, we've had the pleasure of speaking to different people inside of the safety space in particular. And today we're gonna continue down that path as we have the privilege of speaking with Jeffrey Lift. Jeffrey were first to himself as a guide of new view safety. If his name sounds familiar to you, it's because he is the caretaker of safety differently dot com It is my pleasure. Welcome Jeffrey to the show. Well, I have to tell you, the new layout on the website is quite fantastic.  I love it. Well, thank you. Um, it's a work in progress. Um, once, once we made the commitment to once, I made the commitment to taking it over. Um, we have some time lines in mind and and wanted to stick to that. But, uh, you know, once once we got into it and the royal we, uh, myself in and Michelle Beauregard, who's helping me with the with the web Web architecture in that web development. Um, the idea's just started coming, so I wanted to stick to original timelines and and get something up pretty around the time we said we would.  Um, but the ideas in the hopper are what intrigues me the most. So, um, lots in store for 2020? Um, hopefully Ah, yeah. Hopefully it the goal. I think my goal is for the site to be is important for people moving forward as it was for me in 2013 or whenever, Um, but in a you know, more modern away. So how did this whole thing start hiding? All of a sudden, you decide that you're gonna take over the website. How did it get presented to you to move forward and say, OK, Ron Gant's kind of stepping out.  We want you to take it over. Uh, yeah, Well, yeah, I was a lot like that, huh? Um, sai. You know, when I discovered it, I reached out to Daniel right away back in the day and thanked him for it because, ah, you know, metaphorically. I felt like a guy in a in a lifeboat catching a glimpse of an island. You know, um, it just it just meant the world to me when I discovered that site So reached up to him initially back in the day, I created the Lincoln Group to support the site, but they were never really connected.  Um, And then when dan passed it off to Ron, um, I just love Ron and his work, and that was just seemed like a great fit and was very happy about that. But, you know, runs got a lot on his plate. So one day he called and said, Listen, what do you How do you feel about about taking it over? And and, uh, I honestly wasn't I was a little bit I normally jump on these things like a like a puppy dog. but, uh, I was a little bit cautious about this, actually.  Jokingly said, Why? What's wrong with it? What, What? Why? You know, But, um, I understood his reasons both for for wanting to pass it on. And I felt very honored and privileged, and I You don't want it once it kind of settled in with me. I, um I I carry this, I don't know, honor or burden or something with with a lot of pride and with a real dedication to service. But it makes it made sense to me on some level how I justified it with myself, that I've always tried to be a generalist in this space.  I've always tried to, uh, seek out information, share information and pass it along, you know, communicate out anything in this space that I came across on. I've been doing that, you know, since 2012 or 2013 and so this is really an extension of that. That's how I've learned myself over the last bunch of years. It's how it's it's how this movement has shaped my practice, my consulting practice over these years, and I think it's embodied in in the website that, um Now there's this terrific platform, and it's now.  It's not just what I can discover and think to pass on her share. I'm far better vehicle for sharing. But you know, we've got a global community that can post their events and and send in content. And and, uh, speaking to somebody the other day, you know, and metaphorically we said, I I like it to be a buffet or a banquet that when people come and visit exactly what they walk away back to their tables with will be a slightly different plate than their neighbor. Everybody can come and take greater lesser proportions of of a variety of facets or domains or theories is we're calling them on the site.  But I think it's important to Thio do the greatest good for the greatest number in this space. Um, I by having a sort of a central hub for these resources. So So about 2013 is when you said that you discovered this originally, so let's do a little bit of a backtrack before we get to 2013. How did the whole journey starts for you? How did you make the discovery of safety and decided this was something that you want to jump into. I'm God, there's a clarifying. But after that, because I was going to say, Well, I was born in 1960.  Uh um Well, I you know, I fell into safety in 1992 by kind of more or less accidentally going and learning a little bit about first aid for the first time in my life and really loving it, Um, and that that that really aligned some things. And I pursued that for a number of years with doing Cem of paramedic work. And, ah, some lifeguards ski patrol work so that that caring about giving care to people, you know, caring for injuries, carrying for the injured. But when I started working with those tickets that became the safety profession and safety was about prevention.  And so, in the early days, without really any training or experience in it, um, I was tossed out there and told that I was gonna get to deal with the regulator and I was going to get to try to make the workplace safer. And in those early days, there was there was a simple It was a simple dynamic. There was, ah, discernible cause and effect relationship between. Or at least I felt there was between going out and and whatever it was, installing guardrails, getting guys tied off, getting guys in peopIe back in the day.  It was it felt good. It There was a real linear connection between what I wanted and what I was doing. And so has my career evolved over the next 20 years? I think it went from simple to use the connection framework. Um, it went from simple to too complicated. And we had we had 24 odd, very large construction projects around the Pacific Northwest. And we had, I don't know, 4000 to 5000 construction workers out there at any one time. Um, building high rises in various, uh, mostly contractors, almost all contracts.  But you know, what we were doing became very complicated. I was managing in all the required ways. I was members of all the national safety clubs. I was had my my national whatever designations. But I suffered a real dissonance that where did that? Where did that ethic of caring go? Where did the my ability to trace the positive effect I was having go, Um, And so I went through a bit of ah, real change in 2012. And then there was a few accidents. There was a couple of fatal accidents very close to home.  We had a couple of a sawmill explosions here in this province, so a lot was happening around that time. That just really encouraged this thinking. So in 2012 I made that I just stepped out of my corporate safety role and and stepped away from, you know, that's that conventional school of thought of the clubs and associations, and all I really knew to do at the time was to take some of the leadership ideas are our senior management was involved in a leadership development process in the company, and we were talking about some really great leadership concepts, and we were talking about them in a very open and and and, uh, just we're just discussing them and hashing them over and combining and contrast ing.  And it was just a really dynamic discussion. So I thought, you know, us suits in the boardroom don't want Mimi could use that discussion, but where that discussion would really be beneficial without in the front lines out where we've got leaders. Um, I now know just to describe it as we have leaders out there working and work as has actually done. We've got front line leaders out there dealing with the realities of our people and our systems of work and a constantly changing environment and, you know, constructions of weird industry or a great industry to have these thoughts and because it's so variable and so dynamic and so constantly changing.  Um, and I ascribed to the John Cotter kind of school of thought that says The really the purpose of leadership is to is to manage change, you know, to deal with change. So it took, took leadership development up to the front lines and and really dove into that that first year. And it was at the end of that first year I discovered I'm and I'm not sure it was the website it was the Euro control paper on from safety. One to safety too, I remember, is being huge.  One of the first pieces I saw on the website was Daniel Homer Dolls piece, where he talked about moving safety from a deficit kind of mindset. Thio possibilities mindset, something that could be more generative. J Island Show Have you learned about a human and organizational performance and you wanted more, or how is your chance? Fisher Improvement Technologies is conducting an advanced H. O P. Practitioner workshop. Now is your opportunity to learn these advanced hop techniques in this two day workshop that is designed to give leaders the ability to understand and manage integrations of advanced era reduction and organizations, also known as Arrow.  Participants are provided with multiple experimental learning opportunities to ensure they can use the information in their day to day interaction, firm or information, go to arrow hp dot com. That is E r o hp dot com, and we're back with Jeffrey Lift from safety differently dot com on the J. Ellen Show Now, Now, if this time are you out there looking for something because you notice that there is a gap is that's what's going on is this is why you're searching? Well, I think I sensed there was something about the Orthodox prevention or the Orthodox.  Ah, uh uh, industry and its approach to prevention that was lacking and I couldn't put my finger on it. I knew in my gosh, you're in my heart of hearts that that this wasn't what I got in it for. I didn't get in it. Thio have mountains of paperwork crossing my desk every week or every month. And it wasn't just about passing on its. I got real concern that there was thousands of people out there on scaffolds and ladders and in full protection and whatnot. And I was pushing a ton of paperwork and I was taught to believe that if I push this paperwork right or it was the right kind of paperwork with the right kind of words on it that I was having a positive contributory effect to all those peoples individual safety, but I couldn't trace it.  So So, yeah, I have to go find something. And I didn't know what that something Waas. I was happy to start with leadership development for friend. I still very passionate about leadership development for friend line leaders. But I didn't have the underlying philosophy. I didn't have the underlying sort of perspective or scope. Uh, that gave a foundation for all this. So that's really what the website did for me. So then all of a sudden, you start taking a dive into the website and you're hearing these concepts.  There's I'm assuming it's the first time that you heard it all of a sudden. How it is this trigger in your brain. What's going on? What is the thought process? I must feel like it's a matrix Movements going into the older style movie of I I've been searching for something. I've been looking for the question. It's the answer that drives me. But wait, how did you feel? What did it make it? What did you make happen? That all this? Didn't you just take this deep dive into this?  Well, I couldn't not dive. Um, you know it. And I hear that to this day, too, you know, And some when we're out there doing like a general introduction, you know, presentation, something brief toe, a safety audience or a business audience. And the best feedback I've said this before, but the best feedback I think I've I received for the feedback that I resonate with the most is when somebody comes and says thank you. Because I've had this feeling that there could be more or that we're we don't We're not seeing a full picture or there's other factors at play and they come and say thanks You You put words in a framework.  You've introduced us to these words in a framework around what we were sensing that couldn't put our finger on. And I think the reason that that's obviously what I went through to a T. So once I discovered this, any signs of this and again and, uh, blurry now it was a whirlwind kind of moment, but it was rainbows and unicorns. Man it. I, uh, just discovered this and started drilling down. And then, you know, it just became sort of, ah, self taught exploration. Lots of books, lots of just lots of everything.  You know, once you once you get in this arena, there's just so much to learn. And it's coming so quickly from so many different angles. It's incredible. You can't you can't look away. You can't put it down s so it's been a wild ride. So when you almost didn't do this change in 2012 2013 because you've discovered this. How is it impacting your business at the time? All of a sudden, there's this change to your world. How do you bring it back? And how does it start changing and influencing the things that you're doing?  Wow. Huh? Early man. Thes air. Tough questions? Uh, no. And I ask this because I have to tell you, I had heard of you on the pre accident investigation podcast, and I got to meet you a few months back in October. And you you sat there a few minutes ago and you were talking about framework and we were going through some courses they're putting on at the workshop, and you had a pretty big crew there with you. And after each after each course or after each class, you would sit there and ask questions and drive them to think about the things that were presented to them and kind of frame it and differently.  And I'll tell you, I've been to several courses. I've never seen anybody do that. So I was. So I was, like, so intrigued by what you were doing that I would kind of, like, set off into the room, even though I wasn't part of the group that you were with, just to listen to the questions that you were that you were bringing up in making the people think so. That's why I'm trying to figure out what was your thought, processes the time and when you're going back into the organization and saying, OK, this is how I'm going to start evaluating and changing these things especially.  I know that it's all 778 years ago, But I'm still trying to figure out what was that? You know, the mindset of the time. Wow. Okay, well, no parental rights, I think. I mean, it's it's been an evolution from and there's I mean, I could explain the evolution of the process over those years, but what you're talking about is something quite recent on I want to thank you for for speaking of it in those in that kind way. I remember when we recorded a cast Ah, of with Todd and Mark and I've and and Todd's first comment was you brought a whole crew and I said, Yeah, and he said, I thought you were crazy and I was like, gardening.  Um, you know, it just felt like the right thing to do. You know, my experience over the years in Well, this is how we'll tie the past to the present is that? Well, as soon as I learn this stuff, it was learning this stuff. The Ike had to start showing it from the rooftops. Every chance I got, I had to. My practice was still very conventional. When I went out on my own by we, I had to shuffle this ideology into it. I couldn't not, Um, and there's a phrase that comes to mind.  Somebody once said, I forget where I heard this, but somebody but the comment goes, Are you trying to change the world? And the answer is no. The world has changed me. I'm just trying to pay it forward. And that little phrase stuck with me a lot. Um, so as soon as I became aware of it, I just started sharing it and practicing. It influenced my thinking, and it's that's that's really how the evolution went. But this what we did there with the client. We, you know, I don't in my consultancy when I work with clients, I as I said, I feel like a kind of a generalist in this space, and I don't hold any intellectual property or or or take credit for?  For any particular aspect of this. What I like to be is ah is a bit of a tour guide or a bit of, ah, culture and assistant Two organizations going through this. I use the term Sherpa and somebody said you don't call yourself a shirt, but they carry everybody's crap. And I said, Well, uh huh uh, still kinda fits by. Anyhoo, um, why would I Why would I not expose my clients? This this conference came up and I knew how impactful it would be. How could I not expose them to it?  And then and then I'm quite happy to, based on that momentum, continue to guide them. And my other experience had been When we sit and we do these workshops, people go through the days content. But we know it's I'm a big fan of going for beers after things. You can cut that out. Um, that's really important time. That's like profoundly important time to to to talk and and to debrief. It's not like Todd and Gang runs such a formal workshop that that it's not converse over that we can't dialogue through but the dialogue, the conversations people have afterwards a little so little bit more privately are really powerful.  So it seemed like an obvious thing to do. Todd was kind enough to say, Keep the room, you know, keep the room afterwards and and that s o we did. And it's just a chance to unpack in a slightly more private way in a way that has a little more cultural context, because we're now talking about the day as it relates to the organization. And as I say, there's really nothing stopping anybody from from discussing their connection to the subject throughout the day. But when you've got 14 people from the same organization, you can really get into it after the sessions.  And and so that was the first time we've done it that when you're talking about, we've done it since, um, Todd and I were doing some presentations up in here, up here in Vancouver with some clients and with one of them, we did not, but with the other other client, we did the same. We did a debrief after and I found it. I think it was equally beneficial if the mood or the energy changes the dynamic changes when the when the presenters when the speaker's leave the room and this was like, uh, I mean, we still go for beer.  But now there's a step between the workshop and beer, and that is the nonalcoholic debrief. Uh, and then we go have a beer DVD J Island Show. Hi, everybody. Todd Conklin. I know lots. You get your information while you drive down the road or sit on planes or sit in meetings and look interested. And now you should know that three of my books are available for your listening pleasure on Audible. With the help of J. Allen and Safety FM, we've produced three the books Workplace Fatalities, the Five Principles of Human Performance and my very first book, Simple Revolutionary Acts.  And they're available now where you get audio books. The more you listen, the more we get into your head safety FM, and we're back with Jeffrey Lift from safety differently dot com on the J. Ellen Show. Well, in talking about the debrief in the beers you also have recently well, not recently. It's been a few months now come up with a book club, and it almost sounds like there's some foundational pieces here that tie into the book club. Correct? Yeah. Beer that ties it all together really ties it all together.  So that the audience members that might not know about the book club could you give an explanation on it? Well, this is you're good at this, man. Um um, jumping back one of the early ways. And I guess 2013 2014 now was was to build. It was about building community. And it was about finding other like minded people to talk about these things with one of the sort of curses of discovering a movement like this that resonates so deeply is that for a grumpy old guy like me, it becomes really difficult to sit in conventional meetings and conventional conferences and things like that about safety, because you're hearing a lot of stuff that just I mean, rolling your eyes is an understatement.  It's It's like nails on a chalkboard to listen to some of that really backwards looking stuff. So who I was left a little bit wanting from the local chapter meetings of our A national safety club. Um, and I thought, you know, rather than pre program speakers and topics, if a few of us got together, we could choose our own venue where we wanted to have a nice dinner. We could get a quiet table and we could, uh, just angle the topic more towards exclusively towards these emerging ideas.  So the obvious thing to do at the time and again I'm thinking it's 2013 maybe end of 2013 was to call it the Safety Differently Book Club. And, um, you know, full disclosure. As inert as a group, we have never collectively sat down and read the same book at the same time. So we're not that kind of book club. In fact, I stole borrowed a phrase from a running ah, very old school running club called the Hash House Harriers. And they have a slogan that says, Ah that their ah drinking club with a running problem, right?  I borrowed that immediately and restarted, referring to us as, ah, as a drinking club with a safety problem. Um, and that's when we went, and I also stole the line. I think there's a human factors conference that believe that uses the Line. Two says We have long conversations interrupted by short presentations, and I thought That's a great way to flip the switch on on wet. Ah, really Dia logic. Uh, generative. Transformative discussions could be. So that's what that's what we did. It's It's been very informal. We meet occasionally.  It really depends on, um, you know, already schedule and frankly, how busy I am and the ability to pull it all together. There's been periods of time we've met more frequently. Um, we've been there's only has there, ever. Not in dear See, that's the consistent thing. There's never not been beer, but there's been times. For instance, we've started with a paper or an article, as as Thea, sort of as the topic of the beginning of this discussion for that day. So currently, is there anything like there's a tread of that information online on the Web site saying, OK, this is the book that we're focusing on, and this is the paper that we're focusing on if there's anywhere, lives that they may be interested.  No, it's just part of the invite. And, uh, there's these meetings are recorded. You can imagine why. No, there's no record of it online. It's It's just a safe space, as we call it. But no, there's no real record of it. We set up a meeting and will, um I have an idea in mind. Um, you know, one of our, like, our first annual safety differently pub night. And I'm, uh It took a few years to get that going. So this will be our third year. April 2020 will be our third year having our annual pub night.  And we get a sponsor too. For that, we take over the basement of ah, of a pub coincides with a conference here in Vancouver. Um, but we had I think the 1st 1 was unfortunately ah, soon after the passing of Jens Rasmussen. So, you know, we kind of use that as the anchor as, ah as, ah, tribute toe the work of Jens Rasmussen. And a lot of people discovered his work through that. So that was great. Um, we've had Todd send in video clips. Some Sydney Decker has sent in audio clips for us to for us to talk about.  So it's It's been a little It's been organic. Uh, but I think now the movement has come so far very proud to say that I've passed the reins of the Vancouver Book Club to a local associate, Darshan Gil, that we've got Carina Bay and Toronto. Who? Who wants to convene a group in Toronto? Um, we have Matt and Lindy from us. Johannesburg, South Africa. Mac themselves, Um, and they wanna get together a group down there. And we've got Mike Marino down in the Permian Basin in, um Midland, Texas, who who wants to put a group together?  So I want with expanding for sure it's expanding them. Well, all it takes is somebody in a town who is interested in this movement who would liketo have a few people toe to just get together and chat about this with, um, and if you can invite a few people to a pub for beer, you can host a book club meeting. So, um, yeah, I It's been great to get people together and build community, build local community and the fact now that we have a platform to title to facilitate that and to and to tie these different groups together eyes really exciting, that's that's probably them one of the most exciting aspects of what we can use this platform for in 2020 is is, uh I hope to see somebody put their hand up in a bunch of different cities and say, you know, let's do this, you know?  Give it, give it a go, give it a try. That's the call to action, then that is the call to action. So, having people in these different cities that coming out and actually doing this right, Right. So, Jeff, if people want to find out more information about you work and they go to get two more information about you in the website, we'll have a lot of sassy answers to that. Uh uh, that's not that you don't have to keep it PG. I know how to hit the center button.  Oh, well, that's great. Khan, uh, recording from the first moment. And he and he doesn't edit very much. Um and actually, before I want to get on your other one. What is? You have the rated R rated R safety show. Let's do one of those. We might have to actually let still aim friend on Lian are rating. We do another theory. Uh, you can reach me at Jeff at safety differently. Dot com is probably the best way easy to remember and I am open. You know, anybody who has any questions, comments, ideas, concerns.  I just feel like I'm the caretaker of this stone Maine, for a period of time. And my goal is to help his many people toe build community to to to advance the consideration and application of these concepts as foreign wine as I can. And so, with that in mind, I am open to ah, sensitive. So be kind gentle, but I'm open if anybody has any ideas. If anybody thinks anything should or should not be there, let me know. I'm happy to be of service. Jeff, I really do appreciate you taking the time today to come.  Thank you, Jay Z Been awesome being here. This brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end, but we'll be back before you know it. Thanks for listening and goodbye for now. More J. Allen Show Dog home wondering how you can show your love head of announcing Facebook like the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or physician of the company examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples.  It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.