Rebecca and Alfie Cardamone - Melbourne’s Property Power Couple on Subdividing and Conquering
Rebecca and Alfie Cardamone have worked hard their whole lives individually, and now as a couple, they’re even stronger together. The Melbourne-based consultants are the husband and wide team behind iSubdivide, where they specialise in obtaining plans and permits for property developments as well as land subdivision.
In this episode, they display their approachable and warm personalities that have helped them to become the successful team they are today. Designer Rebecca and builder Alfie share how they built their strong work ethics
from early ages, how they both ended up in careers they never expected, and just how it all came full circle in the end. Timestamps:
00:52 | Awaiting Her Prince
04:59 | Discipline Inspiration
07:23 | Running the Business
14:54 | Role Models and Coming Full Circle
18:19 | Believe in Yourself
21:13 | Country Roots
23:13 | Celebrating Tradies
27:17 | Strong Values
00:51 | Start ‘Em Early
04:23 | Get Your Thinking Caps On
07:28 | Teamwork Makes the Dream Work
09:11 | The Power of Education
11:49 | The Melting Pot of Mentors
15:56 | ‘Just Effing Do It’
19:28 | Scratch That
23:51 | The Builder vs. The Bank
29:37 | Cutting Your Losses
32:25 | Building More Than Property
40:34 | There’s That Prince I Was Waiting For!
Resources and Links:
[00:01:58] And then in comes my dad who's all about property and taught me a lot about what I know now. And together with my parents, I bought my first investment in my early 20s. And it was an apartment, it was in a really great area. And that was my first taste of the industry.
This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.
I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with Rebecca and Alfie Cardamone, the dynamic property development duo from Victoria. With Rebecca as the interior designer and Alfie as the builder, this husband and wife team behind iSubdivide have working together down to a fine art as they subdivide and conquer all across Melbourne.
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Awaiting Her Prince
When it comes to property power couples, Rebecca and Alfie Cardamone are at the top of the list. Together they combine their family values and passion for design and development to live out their dream while creating dream homes for others. Despite their work seeming like they’ve been doing it their whole lives, it’s somewhat of a second career for Rebecca.
[00:00:52] I guess I got into property in my early to mid 20s. I have an Italian background. So I had the typical European parents that want you to invest in property. And that was whether you're a boy or a girl.
[00:00:39] My mum always used to say to me, 'Save your money, and buy yourself a house'. And I used to say, 'No, Mum, I'm gonna marry rich. Do you know what I mean? Like, my husband is going to buy the property, I didn't have to worry about any of that'.
[00:00:50] So I carried that on. I had my part time job in school, as most people do. And I would spend all my money. And then I got to, I guess, my early 20s. And I'm like, 'Okay, so the rich husband's not here yet, maybe I should have listened to my mum'.
[00:01:36] I grew up with having a really great role model. My mum was a really hard worker. She would work from early in the morning to late at night, and she would save all their money. And that was what I was seeing every day. And that gave me my urge to figure out what I wanted to do to make money and save money.
[00:01:58] And then in comes my dad who's all about property and taught me a lot about what I know now. And together with my parents, I bought my first investment in my early 20s. And it was an apartment, it was in a really great area. And that was my first taste of the industry.
[00:02:19] I grew up also reading Steve McKnight books and everything like that. So back then, without knowing too much, I knew I wanted to acquire a lot. That I wanted to have something behind me, not buy and sell or not invest in shares. None of that interested me. I wanted to kind of build something.
[00:02:41] From there, straight after school, I did marketing. And I did marketing up until probably my mid 20s, or 'till after I met my husband. And then through our love of property together, I decided I wanted to change careers and bring something professional to our team, because we were developing together. And I wanted to do something that was actually going to add value and save us money.
[00:03:12] So I went to school. I left my career in marketing, and I went to school, and I started from scratch at about 27. And I started building design. And from there, now when we do projects together, I'm able to do the drawings, save us money there.
[00:03:29] What we found is really great is working together as a builder and a designer. We can sit on my software and work out the best ways to design a house that's going to give us the most value. And that's something that you can't really do all the time with another company. And that's something great that we share that we can sit there and go through and figure out how we can get an extra bedroom in, or how we can make the most of this block. And I think that's one of the ways that we add value.
[00:04:01] I guess that's sort of my journey in a nutshell of how I got into it from being young to meeting my husband, hearing he was a builder, and that we were going to do stuff together. And then I kind of jumped. I've just really poured myself into the industry now and I've got my own interior design business, but our projects take up a lot of our time. So that's where we're working the most, it's on our own.
Alfie Cardamone was born in Melbourne, though his parents moved the family to a country town when he was just a year old. He returned to Melbourne in his early teens, where he began to realise he didn’t quite fit the mold that his family had set out for him.
[00:04:59] My father always wanted me to be an accountant. So I finished year 12, went to uni to study accounting, and it wasn't for me. So the first six months, I sort of just knew it wasn't for me. So I went and did an apprenticeship in Brick Lane, because I've got four uncles that are bricklayers. And so I went with them and [planned to] keep the family tradition, I was thinking.
[00:05:27] They're quite tough. In terms of, you know, there's no smoko, you work, and that's it. There's no ifs or buts about it, no phone calls. Get on the trough and lay bricks, that's what your job is.
[00:05:39] That's tough.
[00:05:41] It instilled a good discipline in me. And it was something that I use now. And then doing my apprenticeship in my late teens, early 20s, working also a second job in a restaurant as a waiter [and] pizza maker. So that sort of just kept the hard work going through, because I was always saving money for a home.
[00:06:10] [At] 21 [I] bought my first property. And just always wanted to be a builder. On the job site, seeing the builder come with his doughnuts [having] a beautiful time and in his beautiful car. And I'm thinking, 'Man, I'd rather do that'.
[00:06:30] I always wanted to learn how to get to that level. And [in my] early 20s, I did night school to get the qualifications to become a builder. So [I was] working during the day, at nights, working on the weekends at the pizza joint. And during the week I was at night school, just trying to be a builder.
[00:06:51] So it was always something that I wanted to do and then [I] eventually got my license and then started working for a developer. [I] did my own projects, and I'm at this point where I've gone the whole roller coaster. But it's been worth it.
Running the Business
As husband and wife, parents to two young children, and business partners, you may think they see each other 24/7. However, when it comes to business they do work on projects together, but they’re lucky to spot each other during work days.
[00:07:23] We're both working on a project at the moment together. So we've got a one year old and a three year old. So our day starts very early. But we're lucky in the way that we do a lot together, but we have separate responsibilities.
[00:07:38] So we'll definitely start the day together, get our kids ready, get them off to childcare or their grandparents'. And then I will either work from home and work on my design projects, arranging stuff for site and Alf does a lot of the hands on stuff on site.
[00:08:00] We develop a lot in regional areas. So it's a long drive. So he'll be out there on days that I can't go out and do all the stuff hands on. And I do a lot of the design work, interiors, picking materials, project managing it.
[00:08:18] But there's nothing that I won't do or he won't do. We get involved in each other's stuff when we have to as well. But day to day, it's more hands on on site.
[00:08:28] I guess we're not your typical developers, because some developers would have to hire everyone, whereas we do the work as well. So we're both [inaudible], which is great because we make more money. But it's gonna be more responsibility, more work. And I guess the fact that we have to spend a lot of our day doing it, we can't go and do another job, like, this is it for us. And that's the life we've created. And that's what we intended to create as well. [It] was to be able to do this full time.
They both have a lot of control over their business, which ensures they get the most value out of each project. However, they also rely on the professionals when it comes to areas outside of their expertise.
[00:09:25] We work really close with a real estate agent in the area that we're developing at the moment, who is in contact with us all the time about what we're doing, how many rooms we're doing, what materials are we using, what looks great in the area at the moment. And the fact that we can change things at any time we want and we can have that hands on control, without spending money, like without paying a designer to redesign or doing variations with the builder, we'll just do everything ourselves.
[00:09:57] And I guess that's the way that we've learnt as a couple we have that power. That's our edge over, or our way to make more money than another property developer is the fact that our hands on skills give us that extra value.
[00:10:13] And even just with that, as well, it's the money factor, but there's also the time factor. And obviously, time is money. And now with the whole COVID scenario, a lot of consultants have lost staff, and they're way behind. So it gives us the ability to fast track it a lot sooner than if we were to get an external consultant. And you're chasing them, because they might be [short staffed]. And so that's where the benefit is from that perspective, as well. So, it has its challenges, but it definitely has its benefits.
[00:10:52] That's great. And Alfie, what do you play? What role do you play in the business as well within the project?
[00:10:58] I'm on site most of the time, so I'm dealing with trades, suppliers. Especially in Victoria at the moment, there's a lot of challenges with suppliers, with materials and shortages in certain products in the industry. So that always throws a few curveballs.
[00:11:19] There's also sort of a challenge in the labour market at the moment. So [being] on site keeps me on my toes at the moment. And there's also a couple projects that I do for clients at the moment. So that's also something that I'm dealing with clients externally as well.
[00:11:39] There's two projects at the moment that I'm working on for them. A two unit site and a three unit site. So it's on site mostly at the moment. And I deal with a lot of the council requests or building surveyor, ongoing things. There's always something to do.
They manage both their own projects and client projects in perfect harmony, which they pride themselves on.
[00:12:12] Alf and I have a business together called iSubdivide. So we get, essentially— and this is where I come into it again, with the design— but we get the town planning and subdivision permits for clients. So if they're wanting to develop, we arrange all that from beginning to end for them.
[00:12:37] So that's something that also keeps us on our toes. So we also offer that service to our clients. And that's sort of separate to my construction business. But that's also something that Bec and I, we have a focus on a daily business. Because we usually get a couple people always inquiring daily for plans and permits, because the market is quite hot at the minute in terms of that.
Their style of subdividing is less about scaffolding and bricks and more about examining and shuffling papers, which is just the way they like it.
[00:13:37] And we want to business as well that is remote. It is very time consuming, and can be at times very stressful building all the time. So while we are, as I explained earlier, doing everything hands on ourselves, it's because we're at a young age, we want to make the most money we can while we're building for our future.
[00:13:58] But the idea of iSubdivide is to give people the same opportunities we're creating for ourselves, but without us having to do the hands on build.
[00:14:10] It's a great business and we love working on it. And it really brings out the best in both of us in terms of our skill set without having to do that day to day grind of the build.
[00:14:25] It's always fun to go on a construction site.
[00:14:28] Ask my husband about me coming to his construction site!
Coming up after the break, we take a moment to celebrate the hardworking tradies…
[00:23:13] It's so inspiring. Tradies now, like, I really look up to a lot of [them], especially ones that have their own businesses at young ages.
We delve deeper into how their families have shaped them, and just how soon it started…
[00:27:49] I just used to remember him telling me how... he would show me his salary and just be like, 'See, see? If you work really hard and you go to work to do your job right, you'll be there one day too'.
Alfie reveals just how long it did— or didn’t— take for him to tackle his first development after he bought his first property.
[00:01:43] That was an achievement at that time for me. And it just kept on going.
And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.
Role Models and Coming Full Circle
Rebecca Cardamone, the design half of the iSubdivide duo, is also a proud Melbourne native. Her family and her Italian heritage are just as important to her as her Melbourne roots.
[00:14:54] I grew up in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. [I] still live in the northern suburbs of Melbourne. As I mentioned before I grew up in an Italian family [and] had a really strong role model in my mother to follow in terms of wanting to work and save money.
[00:15:17] But I've also had my dad and my brothers really interested in property and Steve McKnight. And funnily enough, my older brother used to be a member of Your Investment Property, the magazine that would come monthly. Which, funnily enough, Alf and I ended up being in last year or the year before, which is kind of, like, full circle.
[00:15:46] So I used to see my brother read those magazines, and I was always jumping on. And being so young, I never thought that that would be me in there one day. So I guess I'm kind of proud that that happened, because it's something from my childhood and seeing it growing up.
[00:16:03] My family has always lived in the northern suburbs. So I guess it's something that is another reason we're working so hard. We put everything into property development. We don't have, right now, our ideal family home. As soon as we buy or sell a property to make money, we put it into the next project.
[00:16:24] And I guess at the end of the day, we're doing that because we want to buy freedom. I had the typical upbringing, living in the suburbs, go to uni, get a job, have a family. But I've always had this yearning to want to do something or be something different. Maybe travel more or live in another country. And I guess the only way to get that freedom is to have the finances behind you. That's the only way to achieve that sort of freedom and those sort of choices. So that kind of really drives us.
[00:16:57] And we're in our mid 30s now. If I get there by my 40s, I'll be really, really happy. I'll be really satisfied, because that's definitely what drives me every day, to not settle down in the suburbs. That's not the life that I think I see myself or my family now having.
[00:17:14] Even though I had it growing up, and I loved it and I appreciated that it was very secure and safe and comfortable. But there's just something about it that's not for me. And that's how my husband and I connect as well. He's exactly the same. There's just something more that we feel we're trying to create for our lives. I'm trying to get out of a little bit of the norm and onto something a little bit different.
Believe in Yourself
Rebecca was a self-confessed nerd in high school, which has paid off well in building her strong work ethic that she relies on every day.
[00:18:19] I used to be on the debate team, and the principal was the coach. So I would say I was a very big nerd. I would get, like, best speaker whenever I was doing debating. I just tried, I guess, but I've always had that. I've always had, like, a strong work ethic. I've always tried really hard.
[00:18:40] And I guess this comes back to my mum again. When I would do something at school, if she would come and watch me debate or she would come and watch— I used to sing, so I would do musicals, [I] used to love singing, my dad would take me [to] singing lessons, dancing lessons, like very really, really supportive parents.
[00:18:57] My mum would always say to me, no matter what I did, if I was singing, dancing, or doing anything, she would always say to me, I was the best. 'You were the best one there! Don't listen to that teacher, you were the best one there'. She always used to say that.
[00:19:09] And it used to stick in me. And I used to think even though I wasn't, back then I would believe it and it would give me so much confidence. I always remember that from school, I always remember Mum saying that.
[00:19:23] So now I try to do it with my kids. Not because I want them to think they're better than everyone else. It's more because I learnt the confidence it gave me. And when you have confidence, you can do anything. Like, you're unstoppable. And that's something that I really want to instill in my kids because I found it really beneficial for myself.
[00:19:40] I remember telling my husband that because I think my son was doing a soccer class and I was like, 'You're the best, you're the best one, Ace, keep going!' And I was like oh my gosh, don't let the other kids hear you say that! I'm like, I'm doing it because he's gonna really think he's the best! And watch him, one day he will be the best.
As for Alfie, he spent his early years in Terang in country Victoria, where his parents bought and ran a local pub.
[00:21:13] We stayed there for several years. I don't have huge amounts of memories of that, but photos and just the whole process of being associated to that scene is something that still sticks to my mind.
[00:21:32] We came back to Melbourne, just in Melbourne's northwest again, and school was something that I enjoyed. But there was something that was missing for me at school. I always was involved in the self development side of things. So growing up, in my teens, reading Napoleon Hill Think and Grow Rich was my first book. And I was always just wanting a bit more.
[00:22:03] So after school, I went to uni to fulfill my father's wish. Unfortunately, he didn't get his wish. But I enjoyed the challenge that I had, which was the bricklaying side of things. It was a little bit out of left field for my family. You're supposed to be this educated [person], go to get yourself your degree. And now you want to put the overalls [on] and push wheelbarrows and lay bricks, it's crazy.
[00:22:37] Some people would see that as you didn't become the success that we wanted for you. You went to school all these years, and now you're doing a trade.
[00:22:44] And that was probably the reaction probably at that time for my parents. And so I had that challenge, but I had to prove them wrong. And that's something that motivated me as well. So now looking back, you look at tradies now, and you might finish school at say, 18 [or] 19, you do your apprenticeship [for] three [or] four years, and you're on anywhere between $80,000 to $120,000 [annually]. You don't have a HECS bill.
[00:23:13] It's so inspiring. Tradies now, like, I really look up to a lot of [them], especially ones that have their own businesses at young ages. And they're doing extremely well. And they're always booked out, they're always busy. It's really something to look up to.
[00:23:29] And that's something that's evolving. So now more and more people are looking at it as a real option, rather than going to uni and getting your $50,000 [to] $60,000 plus HECS debt and starting off a wage of $50,000 to $60,000. And just corporate level getting 2% [or] 3% increases every year. It's definitely changing and evolving, the world that we live in.
[00:23:59] So after [that, I] got [my] apprenticeship, and then like I said, I was working also a second job at a pizza restaurant. So earning a bit of cash there and also studying three nights a week at a TAFE, getting my diploma in building and construction. Because that's what I needed to get a builder's registration, or to get to the next level.
[00:24:24] So I did that and worked for a builder and worked for a developer and then just started doing my own projects for clients that I would engage with. And that worked okay. And just wanted a different side.
[00:24:43] COVID taught me to diversify your business to a certain degree, because there are a lot of challenges in the building game. Even today where a lot of builders are under a lot of challenges and stress, and [are] broke, which is sad. And then that affects the clients and the developers.
[00:25:04] So it's a high risk business of that side of things. So diversify, get into something that I'd love to do. There's nothing better, Tyrone, than seeing a block of land with an old house or whatever it is and seeing, you know, 'Yep, I could put four units on it, I could put six on it'.
[00:25:27] And then working on the plans, and then being on site and watching it grow. And then giving the keys to the agent, or the owners, and it's just the whole full circle. And that's what I enjoy [doing]. And it's given me an opportunity to have a level of freedom that probably most [people in their] mid 30s to late 30s don't have.
[00:25:52] As in day to day freedom.
[00:25:54] Day to day freedom. And that's something that now iSubdivide gives that opportunity. We're doing stuff for clients, and all that type of stuff. And I enjoy doing that, because especially in these times, you need to have multiple incomes. Having one right now is just... you're too far behind the eight ball, with inflation and everything just going crazy expensive. You definitely need to look at now, 'How do I get multiple incomes?' And that's what I enjoy doing now for people.
Rebecca is as proud of her parents as they are of her, and their strong work ethics have clearly rubbed off on her, just as they hoped they would.
[00:27:17] My dad works for CitiPower. He's had the same job ever since he was... I don't know, [about] 18. Both my parents were born in Italy. Both came over really young, so English is their second language. They don't have an accent or anything. They've developed the language very well.
[00:227:41] But my dad, I guess [was] probably even younger than 18 when he started with CitiPower. And it's the only job he's ever held, he's had it his whole life.
[00:27:49] I just used to remember him telling me how... he would show me his salary and just be like, 'See, see? If you work really hard and you go to work to do your job right, you'll be there one day too'.
[00:28:02] My mum was a kindergarten teacher.
[00:28:08] She would leave to get there, like, at 7:00 [or] 7:30. Sometimes she'd come home [at] 6:00 [or] 6:30. And then, being the typical Italian mother, she would still do the cooking and the cleaning. So we would all be home at 3:30 [or] 4:00 after school, but we would wait until 6:00 [or] 6:30 for my mum, my poor mum to get home. And she would cook for us.
[00:28:32] My mum came from a family, especially her father, who was very in the building and construction industry. He was a painter, but he would develop units, multi units. And I guess my mum kind of had that... that's where she got the idea of 'Invest in property, invest in property', because her dad taught her that. And then when they got married, her dad let them live in one of his properties.
Rebecca and Alfie’s families have more in common than it would appear. Both of their parents and grandparents had homes in more rural areas, before moving to the outskirts of the city for the lifestyle.
[00:29:26] And that's kind of something we said that we don't want to sell our properties that are in good areas, because we don't want to make that same mistake. Because we think, 'Oh, imagine [if] our parents still had that house in blah, blah, blah, it would have been worth a fortune'. But they moved out so they could have a house and this giant backyard that they don't use.
[00:29:46] So we kind of always, both of us, had that lesson of 'If we get something in a good area, we're going to try [to] hold on to it. We're not going to sell it. We're not going to do what they did'.
[00:29:57] And I mean, they're happy with their choices, I'm just saying in terms of for our future, we don't want our kids to say, 'Oh, Mum and Dad used to own that property and blah, blah, blah, I can't believe they sold it'.
[00:30:09] So I guess that's something as well that my parents... they won't say it's a lesson, they won't say, 'Don't do what we did'. But it's something that I learnt from them without them telling me. If we have land, we're going to try [to] retain it.
[00:30:24] And we have done our best to hold on to the amount of properties we have. For our age, it's pretty crazy. Like, you would think the level that we've got into at our age, most people would say, 'Why don't you sell some?'
[00:30:39] But our goal has always been for a good retirement. So we're going to hold on to as many as we can. And we will only sell if we have another project and we need to use the money for that next project.
[00:31:29] Alf and I, we sacrifice now. I guess we could be doing a lot more. Like all our wealth, or everything, even our all our days, all our time, everything is put into property. And if we sold everything now, we could have a giant, beautiful home with a pool and a gorgeous car and go on holidays.
[00:31:52] We sacrifice our present for our future. Because if we can come together and build a really strong foundation, then we won't have to worry about much later on in life, as many people do.
[00:32:05] And that's the goal. Like, we're sacrificing our current. And I mean, we still live a great life now. But we don't have, like I said, we don't have our dream family home. And we probably won't for a little while, and we're okay with that. Because we're so headstrong and focused and motivated to create this life for ourselves, at least by our 40s so that we can have that later on. There's plenty of time for that. We're young now. We want to work and we want to build. That's the goal.
Start ‘Em Early
Alfie’s parents were always involved in property, and after they sold the country pub, they diversified their portfolio by buying several properties. Alfie inherited their work ethic, and started working at a family friend’s pizza shop when he was 14.
[00:00:51] So while everyone was partying going into Friday night or Saturday nights at high school, I was working. And it was a shock at the start, I hated it.
[00:01:02] But then I just enjoyed it. And I developed social skills that [I'm] benefiting [from] right now, where I can go and talk to anybody, and I can have a really good conversation with business people. Because, a lot of times you get regulars at the pizza shop, and there'll be business meetings there, and you interact. And that was really good.
[00:01:29] So, from 14 I was saving my money, pretty much most of it, if not all of it. And I bought my first house at 21. That was an achievement at that time for me. And it just kept on going. So then I wanted to do a development. And then several years later, I worked away to get a property and put a unit at the back. So that was my first development.
[00:02:00] So that was something that my dad always was helping me with. And until today, he's been very, very, very influential for me and helped me a lot in that regard. Just, you know, mindset. And also, if I need a set of hands, he's the first one to call.
[00:02:24] He helps us a lot. And I guess that's an inspiration for us as well. He helps us hands on. So get in there, and save money, do things yourself. Don't just always hire people. Like, you can do it. And his dad can do anything. Like, he could build a house from scratch. And if he didn't know how to do something, he'll just go learn how to do it.
[00:02:45] He's told me about courses he's done. Really crazy thing[s] like [a] welding course, I don't know, all these courses. I'm like, 'Why do you need that?' He's like, 'Because [I] needed to fix something. So [I've] gonna learn how to do it'.
[00:02:56] And I guess in a way, we're kind of doing that as well. So I guess that's something that we've taken from your dad. It's just if you've got to do something, save the money and do it yourself. And look it up. So, you know, we could hire a designer and a builder, but we don't. We do it all ourselves.
[00:03:13] Especially when you've got the skills, you know, you may as well use it.
[00:03:16] Exactly. Exactly.
Alfie delves into the story behind the first property he purchased when he was 21 years old, where he started a pattern he continued for over a decade.
[00:03:34] Up until my early 30s, there was more rent vesting. Where I would buy a property, just for investment purposes. And where I was living, I would rent for example. And the key to success for that is you've obviously got to pick. If you're going to buy a new investment property, it's got to be a property that's going to grow in value, or you're able to add value at a later date, where you [could] profit or you could make some profits that are going to outweigh you buying your family home, sitting on it, paying the mortgage off. And that's something that we did, even when we first started dating, rent vesting, and it worked out quite well for us.
Get Your Thinking Caps On
[00:04:23] Alf taught me. When I had met him I had mentioned earlier that apartment with my parents that I bought as my first investment. And he was just like, 'Yeah, no. When you invest, invest in land. Because you need to add value to it. We need to build something on it'.
[00:04:41] That's Alf's mind. He's always thinking, 'Oh, we can knock that down and put four'. 'We can knock that down and put three'.
[00:04:46] So I quickly got rid of my apartment and we used the money elsewhere. Alf will never really buy an apartment or a townhouse, like, he's always looking for land in terms of investing. Because of that [thought that's] always in the back of his mind, 'How am I going to add value?'
[00:05:04] Even if we were to buy a house that we're going to build at the back, we'll still figure out how we can keep that house at the front. Can we get an extra bedroom in it? Should we go up? Like, we will look at every possible option to add value to that land. So when we invest in property, we're not just investing for the sake of investing, we're actually trying to make money off of it. So that's why we're always looking for land.
[00:05:27] Specifically, we do try to find something where— and this is, like, a pattern that we've had— we can build behind an existing house. So that while we're building at the back, we can keep someone renting at the front. Obviously, we reduce the rent. So that we have income coming in while we're building at the back, and then we generally renovate the front house.
[00:05:50] And subdivide it and sell off.
The Cardamones clearly aren’t afraid of hard work or a challenge, and they’re not put off by long settlements either. Six to 12 month settlements may not be the norm but they’re not unusual, and they work fine for them.
[00:06:21] In that timeframe, we're getting plans and permits. And then once we get that, then just before settlement, or we settle and we sell it prior, or if we have to settle we settle and we'll sell it and we'll make a profit out of that.
[00:06:40] From our perspective, a small deposit of whatever it is, five [or] 10% of the acquisition cost, plus the permit costs has just returned us 100% or 200% return on investment, within 12 months. I mean, that's the sort of thing that we always constantly think about. ‘How can $1 make another 10 cents or 20 cents or 30 cents or another dollar?’ Money's always constantly got to work for you and grow in that sense. Not in a greedy sense, but in a smart sense.
As the stylist for iSubdivide, style runs through Rebecca’s veins, and property is part of her DNA. Both Rebecca and Alfie bought their first respective properties at a young age, before they even met, thanks to their strong work ethics and determination. While both of their sets of parents bought property in more traditional ways as they grew up, the Cardamones approached the situation from a different angle.
[00:07:28] Growing up, both of us [purchased] our first properties with our parents, because we couldn't do it on our own. But we've held on to that mentality, when we need to get money, we will always look outside the box. We don't always say, 'No, we can't afford that'. We'll figure [it] out. We don't go get money from our parents, but we use that same mentality of: 'That can't hold us back. That's not an excuse to not develop, because we don't have the money'. We will find out.
[00:07:56] We look outside the major banks. We use our mortgage broker. We try to get involved in joint ventures. We have developed that sort of mindset now that money can't be our issue. It can't. Because we've educated ourselves to this point where we know it can be done, when we've kind of figured out how we can get the job done, we don't use that excuse anymore, that we can't afford it.
[00:08:22] I just wanted to add that to the whole money aspect, because that's definitely something that I think Alf, especially, is really great at. Finding sites, and working out how we're going to be able to afford this development.
The Power of Education
The Cardamones have ripped the phrase ‘I can’t afford it’ right out of their dictionary and discarded it along with the other frequent excuses. Instead, they focus on the one thing that everybody can access if they choose to.
[00:09:11] It all comes down to education. So if you don't educate yourself or even hire the right people to help you find the money, like having a good relationship with a great mortgage broker, or having great relationships with other like minded people that want to develop and that you could possibly do joint ventures with— that's really important.
[00:09:29] Because sometimes it's not the fact that you don't have the money that's stopping you. It's the fact that you don't know how to get the money that's stopping you. And that's a really big make or break difference into creating and building your wealth.
[00:09:41] So I think people need to change that mentality. Or some people that won't even look into property [development] because they think that it's not for them, they'll never be able to afford it. They don't know anything about it. Like, there's absolutely no reason you can't educate yourself and change your mindset so that you understand.
[00:10:01] Apart from the few percent of people that acquire so much wealth from their parents and keep buying properties— I mean, I don't know how many of them there are around— most people do start off on their own and slowly build, use their equity to buy the next, and so on, and so on.
[00:10:18] And that's a lesson learnt with every industry and trying to be successful is you have to change your mindset. And you have to believe that you can do it, and just figure out how to do it.
[00:10:29] And it starts with the person themselves. Like, we live in 2022, where podcasts like yourself [enable] people [to] get educated. What you offer is the ability for an average person off the street [to] have the intel to learn how to get to the next level. Because obviously, if they haven't gone into property [development] and they want to, there's a barrier there.
[00:11:02] Education, like yourself, podcasts, that gives them the ability to break those barriers, and link with the right people that's going to suit them. So we live in a world where information and knowledge is so available, that it really just comes down to the person.
[00:11:24] It's not, 'I live in this suburb, and I'm going to be like that'. No, there's no more excuses for that. And that's why podcasts like this [are] so important for people. Because ultimately, if we're all living our best lives, we're much happier people. And we're adding value to the community as well.
The Melting Pot of Mentors
[00:11:49] I love it. I love it. And speaking of podcasts, and those kinds of resources, has there been any sort of maybe one or two particular book[s] or podcasts or audio book[s] that you'd like to share with the listeners that has really helped you along your journey?
[00:12:03] For me, like I mentioned earlier, it was Napoleon Hill. That was the first train that I boarded in the self development world. Then it was Zig Ziglar, and Jim Rohn. And all those people that sort of just kept the momentum going for me.
[00:12:23] Look, Robert Kiyosaki, I remember in my early 20s, he was a big thing for me. Steve McKnight as well. But now, as I mature, there's not just one role model for me. So I'll look at multiple people. I look at some of their traits and I'll like that. And I'll download those things, those mentalities or whatever it is for them, and mold it into my own version of a role model.
[00:13:02] Growing up [or in my] 20s, I had my blinkers on and it was wealth, it was travel, property, all that type of stuff. Whereas now, it's diversified. It's being a father, being a husband, a community, leader, all that type of stuff, a business person. So there's just so many more things that need to be attentive to that I just dissect and download a lot from different people. But look, Robert Kiyosaki was definitely someone that I enjoyed. And Steve McKnight, in my early, early days, yeah, for sure.
[00:13:44] We're also really into entrepreneurs, so we're big fans of Shark Tank and stuff like that. I love Barbara Corcoran, and I guess I look up to her being she's a woman, a queen in real estate. And it gives me inspiration as well.
[00:14:00] And I learnt something, a lesson from her. [It] was to always be over prepared. Like, really successful people make things look easy, but they're actually over prepared. They work hard. They're educated. They know what they're doing, and that's why they have success.
[00:14:19] People like that, that we watch who were super, super successful, we just learnt the little things that we take from them [to] help me day to day. I remember those things. I remember things that I've learnt from some of my role models in terms of being disciplined. Like, you're not always going to be motivated. You need to learn to be disciplined, because you can't rely on motivation.
[00:14:44] Things like that that I learn from other people just always stay in the back of my head day to day. Because whether you're successful or not, you're gonna have days— maybe every day— where you just can't help it. Especially with what's going on around the world right now. It's like, I cannot be bothered.
[00:14:59] But then I remember things like that that I've learnt. You've got to stay disciplined. The only way that you're gonna fail is if you give up. So today, if I give up and I can't be bothered, then I'm going to be a failure. Like, I have to keep going. It doesn't matter how long it takes.
[00:15:15] The little things from our role models or people that we've watched over the years have an influence on me day to day, especially now when it's very, very easy to be unmotivated.
‘Just Effing Do It’
For Rebecca, the key is to turn off the thinking machine and simply do it. If you think about it, you can talk yourself out of it— don’t let that train of thought leave the station.
[00:15:56] Just effing do it. Do you know what I mean? Like, just do it.
[00:16:00] Because if you sit there thinking about how much work you've got to do, 'Oh, my gosh, like, I can't be bothered, or there's too much on today'. But that's energy lost. That is time and energy going on in your head that you've achieved nothing. You've just made yourself worse, more stressed. And nothing's come out of it.
[00:16:19] So you can't even allow yourself to think that because it's just downhill from there. Just effing do it.
For two people so interested in property, so much so that they made it their careers, you may think they met at an investment seminar or an open home. They say the truth is always more interesting than fiction, and these two prove it!
[00:17:05] We met on a blind date. That's how we met. In 2013, it was March 2013.
[00:17:37] And we got to talking about property on the date. And, I mean, that's obviously not all we liked about each other. But it was a common ground that we found that we're excited about. And then obviously, things went well, and we continued dating. And then it was only six months into our relationship and we had found and purchased our first property.
[00:17:59] Wow, this was before you got married, and you both went into property together.
[00:18:04] We’re Italian, so...! You would think that we would get married first. That's normally what happens. But we knew, we just knew that we were going to end up together. And we were so excited. We live in one of the houses on that property now. But that was our first major development together. And we bought a house and built two units at the back. And the front house, we redid and that's where we live now.
[00:18:38] So we extended the front house. It was a small, weatherboard, two bedroom, 56 year old [house]. And so we finished the back two units, we moved into the back unit while I was building the front, or renovating and extending the front. And so now this is a four bedroom, three bath [home]. So it functions quite well. But there's also the two units that now we rent out at the backyard, so to speak.
Like all the best laid plans, the Cardamones had an idea of how their first purchase together would turn out. However, life had other ideas in store for them.
[00:19:28] I think we did at one stage consider, like, building a family home. So just one big family home. But this house was too close to my parents because they were just five minutes down the road. And I always thought, like, an Italian girl, I stayed home my whole life, strict parents, I'm going to get married and go live just down the road from them. Like no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that.
[00:19:52] So then it was just straight to 'No, this is investment only'. And then funnily enough, we ended up living here and, like, once you have your kids... they're only five minutes down the road and I think that's too far.
[00:20:03] Like, you don't think that, but actually when you have a family you actually want your parents close. I thought that from the start. But lucky we didn't [move], because now we've created three separate homes on this property and three separate incomes for us eventually when we move out. So I guess it worked out well in the end.
[00:20:23] But originally, it was definitely brought up and it was a conversation that we were going to live here. But yeah, I think it turned out well, like I said, because now we've got multiple incomes on this property.
They currently have nine properties in their portfolio, which are spread out over four projects. With their determination and expertise, though, that figure is sure to jump sooner rather than later!
[00:21:11] Like I mentioned earlier, we've bought properties where we've added value, aka getting DA, or plans and permits, and off selling it, getting the profit, and then just transferring [those] funds to something else, or diversifying it or whatever we wanted to do at the time.
[00:21:29] At the moment, we've got two projects in regional [areas] that we're doing at the moment, but one that's more on site than the others. The other one is more at the moment, DA, getting the plans approved by council. So that keeps us on our toes.
[00:21:55] But we sort of organically have grown to a point where we've done things that we could. Most of our investments have been [with] mainstream banks, and now we've got to a point where they're not wanting to get involved with us.
[00:22:13] And that's okay, because that's where you got to get into. You've got to think outside the circle. And that's where, you know, private bank[s], private funding, or [joint ventures], or other alternatives come into play.
[00:22:27] Because we are trying to hold on to a lot, like, as you said before. But if we had to, we would definitely sell only for another project.
[00:22:35] And that's the thing that we're pretty proud of. There are a lot of people out there that have exploded, and they might put a massive leverage over their heads over the last few years. We haven't really gone too crazy. It's been a quite measured approach.
[00:22:37] And then we're pretty comfortable with that, especially with two young kids. We don't want to put a noose around our necks, so to speak, and really deliver too much pressure on us. So we're pretty happy where we're at, and pretty proud of what we've done.
Coming up after the break, we delve into the nightmare scenario that taught them some crucial lessons…
[00:24:00] Because we were going through the banks, we couldn't use my license as a builder. Because they classified it as an owner builder.
The mindset they apply when things don’t go to plan that allows them to carry on, heads held high…
[00:28:40] Whether you've got one year of experience or 20 years of experience, you will always have something to deal with. And it's the mindset and the knowledge and the people around you that are able to get you through those challenges.
Rebecca shares what gave her the strength to start over in a whole new career field.
[00:32:25] I gave up my whole career. I'd worked up to the top of my game that I could in marketing anyway, and left.
And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.
The Builder vs. The Bank
The couple have done a large number of transactions and developments by this stage, which means in addition to their truckload of success, they’ve come across their fair share of challenges along the way.
[00:23:51] The biggest challenge I would say was we did a development where we had to go through the banks... because we were going through the banks, we couldn't use my license as a builder. Because they classified it as an owner builder. So we had to come up with 50% of the LVR and all that type of stuff. So anyway, to cut the story short, we got an external builder. And it was a nightmare. It was a huge learning curve even for myself.
[00:23:52] It was very stressful for us as a couple, as well. That's another thing, like, we're working together and it's all great. But at the same time, like, we've had to really learn to have a lot of respect and patience for each other. Because when things go wrong, the first person you want to blame is each other.
[00:24:43] And that's something that I guess [is] some [of my] advice to other couples that are doing this together. You do have to really be careful when treading that line of crossing between your professional relationship and your personal relationship, because it can really put a lot of strain on a couple.
[00:24:59] And when we were going through this particular development, and we were having a really bad experience with this builder, there was a lot of strain on us. And it's always a learning curve, and it's something that we built on and we will never go back to going through that with a builder again, because Alf now does all our builds.
[00:25:22] But at the time, when we were going through it and having to learn how to deal with a really difficult builder who was going broke at the time and everything, I must say, though, it did make us smarter and stronger. Because we learnt so much from it, we learnt how to get out of it, we learnt how to stick up for ourselves, we learnt legal aspects that we had never known before.
[00:25:46] And it was at a scale that was relatively small— because it was over a townhouse— that we thought we're gonna use all this knowledge that we never would have got[ten] any other way apart from experience, and hopefully prevent something where we could have lost so much money further down the track.
[00:26:07] The builder was going broke towards the end of the project. So I had a challenge where Rebecca at the time wasn't working full time, she was studying. So changing the contract at that time was going to be a big, big problem for us, because the banks were... we would have had to go through the whole servicing side of things, again, because you're changing a builder.
[00:26:39] That was a massive learning curve for me, and then just crawling to an occupancy permit, and then going through the whole legal challenges that we had to go through through VCAT to recoup some of our losses. And VCAT was slow in that instance, so that was frustrating from that end. You had frustration from the builder and him doing the wrong thing.
[00:27:09] There's a lot of people that go broke, and it's unfortunate. But the way he sort of carried himself was pretty poor.
[00:27:17] So you had those challenges, then you had VCAT challenges, the legal expenses that come with it. So that was a massive, massive learning curve. And look, the learning curve was you 100% try [to] do your due diligence on your builders. And this guy was recommended to us, and we probably let ourselves down, doing our due diligence at the time.
[00:27:47] And he was really... what do you say, like, well priced? So I think that's also a red flag. You get what you pay for. Do you know what I mean? You have to really look into who you're hiring because every month he was late, we're losing income. We need to get all our properties rented out. We don't have the time to wait around.
[00:28:11] It was definitely a challenge. But it was... look, with everything in life, there's never a smooth sailing in property. It's always a roller coaster. And if people don't want to get into property, because they don't want to handle challenges and all that, then probably it's not for them. And that's okay. Because it's a roller coaster.
[00:28:40] Whether you've got one year of experience or 20 years of experience, you will always have something to deal with. And it's the mindset and the knowledge and the people around you that are able to get you through those challenges. And what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And that's certainly something that we grew in that period of time.
Cutting Your Losses
No matter how seasoned an investor is, there are always aspects of deals that they can overlook. Due diligence can and does help, but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.
[00:29:37] It's also important [that] if you do make a mistake, you just have to understand to deal with the failure and to learn from it. Because that's the best thing you will get out of failure, is the lesson learnt. Right? That's what's gonna make you a better business person, a better person, stronger, smarter. And you won't, hopefully go back down that path again.
[00:29:59] So people shouldn't be put off by failure. Because if anything, that is what you're going to get. And lessons are what makes us smarter. What makes us successful. So it's not necessarily a bad thing to fail, because all successful people, they've built their businesses on failure after failure after failure, but they just kept going. And that's the most important.
[00:30:20] You're never ever going to have a perfect development. It's just not going to happen. Like, there will be little things happening here and there, or you might unfortunately lose money for whatever reason. But it's your ability to learn from it, pick up and keep going that's going to make you successful.
[00:30:35] And to add on to that, you've got to make sure you don't put all your eggs in the basket where if there is a big problem, and something goes sour, that you're absolutely finished. You've got to be able to make sure you're... not prepared to go into something with a plan B, plan C, that if you can get out, you can get out less burnt, if that makes sense. Don't throw all your life savings into a project that you don't know much about and just recommended by someone that has been burnt before in the past, or a scammer and all that type of stuff.
[00:31:18] Because there are a lot of people out there that are fantastic on social media, and their marketing skills are brilliant, and they do entice people. And it can be quite deceiving. And a lot of people do lose a lot of money from that perspective. So adding on to what Bec said: Failure is going to be part of growth. But don't throw all your eggs in one basket where if you do lose that basket, you're totally wiped out.
Building More Than Property
The Cardamones cite their first development as their aha moment, when they realised how well they worked together as a team. For Rebecca, this was a pivotal moment for more than one reason.
[00:32:25] I gave up my whole career. I'd worked up to the top of my game that I could in marketing anyway, and left. And [I] started a whole new career because I had so much faith that us working together is going to make it successful. So having our two skills of design and build and also Alf's incredible ability to find property, and also to figure out the finances.
[00:32:55] So I guess this first development was our chance to prove to each other that we could work well [and] create something that was profitable. And because it went so well, I think that's what made us. I mean, because we're doing this together now full time, we never would have been here if we hadn't taken that first step and worked together.
[00:33:16] So I think our aha moment for us, and for us to know we were going to succeed is for us to use both our skills and work together on this. And I guess that's how we've built every single development we've done together. Where I've done design, or we do design together as well, we sit down together on the computer. Sometimes we're up late after the kids go to bed and we're trying to move rooms around and figure out how we can get an extra bathroom and this one and that one.
[00:33:49] Alf was saying, if we had to hire someone, there's no way that he could sit with another designer and sit there and give all his feedback. So the fact that we can do this together, that's our aha moment. The fact that we've we've built that team, and a valuable team.
Couples don’t often work together, but the Cardamones are no strangers to bucking trends. Although they work together, they do so without living in each other’s pockets.
[00:34:38] The good thing about what we do is even though we're working together, we're still separate. So I just focus on design and Alf’s very much into construction.
[00:34:48] So I guess the most important thing, and what I said before, is we need to learn to respect each other and respect each other's jobs. A lot of the time— I won't lie— because I have a really big passion for interior design, a lot of the stuff I want is expensive. And when you're developing for an investment and to make money, you've got the money man here that's telling me, 'We're not going down that path. We're not doing that'.
[00:35:13] So while I need to focus on my own job, I also respect that we're working together, and we need to listen to each other's opinions. When we first started, that was very hard, because I wanted things my way and he wanted things his way. But I guess over time with experience and working together, that is the best way, I think, that we minimise arguments, is respecting each other's jobs and kind of staying in our own lane, as well as working together.
[00:35:42] But also the fact that we're not in each other's face[s] every day. Alf does a lot on site, and I do a lot from home. So that's another great way that we work together. We're not always in front of each other.
[00:35:52] But I think respecting each other's jobs is probably the biggest thing. So I don't get too involved in the construction side [of the business]. If I went on site every day, I think that would annoy my husband. If I went and picked on every little thing. I trust that he knows what he's doing. I've just got to let him do his job and vice versa.
[00:36:18] Any recommendations I would say is you've got to understand what you are first and foremost. Rebecca is my wife, that's the most important thing for me. Having a business partner, that's the benefit. And she's mothering my children. So you've got to come from that angle.
[00:36:37] So when there [are] challenges and times that are tough, just always go on back to the fact that we're both married, let's show some respect to each other. That's more important than what colour painting has to be, that war.
[00:37:00] If you dissect problems, we, as humans, blow up problems out of the water when we don't need to.
[00:37:12] I've got family that don't talk to each other. And you ask, 'Why don't you talk to each other?' [And they say], 'I don't know'. Well, you know, it's blown out of proportion. And then you don't get back to the core, which is just be a good person and you'll get that back.
[00:37:36] We're no different to any other couple, we'll have our challenges. But again, it goes back to we respecting each other's professions and personalities. And sometimes we've got to let loose of our ego to give that person what they want, and vice versa. And that's okay. And there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:38:02] And encouraging each other as well. Like, it's not just about challenges, it's the good things, too. So if Alf sees I've done a great job, he'll tell me. And if he's ahead of schedule on site, I'll tell him. Like, it's about encouraging each other. We're on the same team. And we're actually going towards the same goal at the end.
[00:38:21] We only really came to be this way through experience. Because we have been through those times where we've been the first person to blame each other, because we're the only two in the team. So it's very easy to blame each other. But we've come through that now. And on the other side, it's more about focusing a lot on positives.
[00:38:41] And also when we come to a challenge, we don't quickly panic and get upset or scared, we actually see challenges now as, 'Oh, hold on. All right, what are we going to do? How are we going to get over this? Who can we call?' We think together.
[00:39:02] I think that's another thing that's happened, though, over time, because it wasn't happening at the start. But now if something goes wrong, I'll always say, 'Do you need help? I think I know someone who can help us'.
[00:39:16] Even though it's his construction site that's having an issue, I'll still always offer to help, and vice versa. If I can't get materials on time or anything like that, he will jump in and help with his contacts. So I think that's important when you have challenges. Don't always look to the other person to blame them, help them. You're on the same team.
[00:39:31] As a solution base, go for the solution base sometimes. And that's the key. And the way I see it is that we're two captains on a ship that we know where our destination is going, where we need to go. And we always have to focus on that.
[00:39:51] That will always go back to centre point, which is destination, what's the goal out of this project? What is it? So when we go back to core, it just levels a lot of what we're discussing or challenges, it just sort of goes away to a certain point.
[00:40:11] It's something to be proud of. If you're facing a challenge together and you overcome it together, like, that's a power couple moment. Do you know what I mean? You've worked together, you're the best. like, feel proud of yourself for something like that.
[00:40:22] Celebrate your wins.
There’s That Prince I Was Waiting For!
[00:40:34] So Rebecca, if you met yourself, say, 10 years ago, what do you think you would have said to her?
[00:40:38] I'd probably say, 'Get rid of a credit card'. That's for sure. 100%. You know what? Like, get rid of your credit card and stop spending money you don't have and invest money you don't have. Which is what my husband's taught me through property developing and getting loans and making money from the bank's money. So 10 years ago, I would say, get rid of the credit card.
[00:41:04] And: Your Prince Charming is coming. Because I always thought that... you know, a lot of my friends got married or had babies before me. And I thought it was never going to happen for me. And my husband, who is more than I ever could have imagined came along, and it just gave me... I guess inspiration and confidence in life. Like, just relax and things will happen. Things will come to you.
[00:41:30] And I feel like that in terms of our dreams together as a couple and what we want, like, I don't know it yet, but it's going to happen. And in the future, I'll look back and say, 'I should've just stayed calm, because it was all coming. It was all happening'. So I think that's what I would say to myself.
[00:41:45] Great. And Alfie, what about for yourself? What would you say to yourself 10 years ago?
[00:41:50] Probably believe in yourself more. I think the whole confidence, I think Rebecca touched on it, and I think you did too is that confidence is really, really special. And when you have confidence you can go through barriers that you wouldn't think that you could.
[00:42:07] So I would probably go back and just [give myself a] pep talk about confidence and believing in yourself.
[00:42:14] And focus on what you can be, not what you can't be. Because a lot of society focuses on the fear.
[00:42:27] Someone said to me that the richest place on Earth is a cemetery. Because a lot of people just don't go [for] their dreams. And it stuck [with] me. And it's definitely something to consider, because if you have a goal or a dream, what's stopping you is just you. The person looking yourself in the mirror, that's the person that's stopping you.
[00:42:56] And like I said earlier, we're living in this world the way we are with information being so available, there's no excuses. There's no excuses.
[00:43:11] It's so true. So true. Well, both Rebecca and Alfie, you guys have shared such an amazing story. And I really, really wish I could spend hours talking a lot more about property development with you. But I do have one last question for you. Maybe start with you, Rebecca, is how much of your skill, intelligence, and hard work is due to your success? Or how much of it is because of luck?
[00:43:37] Luck is always great in any industry. But I don't think luck is going to get you that [far]. I mean, the definition of luck, I believe, is when preparation meets opportunity. So you have to be prepared.
[00:43:48] You have to be educated, you have to be able to work hard so that when opportunities come along, you're available, you're ready, and that's how you know luck is created. So I've never... and like I said before, when I learnt from Barbara Corcoran, I like to be over prepared. I never leave anything to chance.
[00:44:05] I definitely believe in luck. But I believe a good percentage of that luck happening is through preparation. And that's why Alf and I are constantly, constantly learning. We never stop. We go to as many educational seminars [as] we can, we're always buying books, we're always reading online. We're constantly trying to make ourselves better.
[00:44:29] So while I believe luck is definitely a portion of success, I just feel I don't believe you can have luck without that preparation.
[00:44:44] [The] key to success is hard work. Skill is definitely a bonus, but a skill can be learnt and trained. So if you want to be the best in your industry, you can work hard. Your work ethic is going to get you there.
[00:45:15] Attitude will determine your altitude in life. And that's where it begins. So your mindset will get you to the point where you will bust a nut to put in an extra two [or] three hours, rather than somebody. If you're in the office spending another extra hour while your colleagues go home, you're going to be recognised by your manager. You're going to get better results.
[00:45:40] And it's the same thing in anything in life. So hard work is key. And look, there is luck. There is definitely some level of luck that's required in this world. But like Bec said, I think you prepare it.
[00:45:56] You can't rely on luck. But, we got lucky when we met each other. So I guess it worked then, didn't it!
Thank you to Rebecca and Alfie Cardamone, our guests on this episode of Property Investory.