In this episode we get to know the active property investor who walks to the beat of his own drum, whether it be here in Australia or barefoot in the Balinese rainforests. While providing tax depreciation and construction cost advice is what has helped him to build his life, it’s only a part of what makes Hyde who he is today. He delves into his family history, from the recent to the not-so-recent, and his travels around the globe.

Timestamps:
00:30 | All About Hyde
04:43 | The Green School
09:38 | Hyde’s Early Life
20:40 | Disruption
13:21 | Coming Home
16:37 | ‘Safe as Houses’? Not So Much
19:49 | Playing His Part
27:12 | May the Odds Be Ever in Your Favour

 |

00:13 | The Breakdown
05:55 | Washington Brown
07:40 | The Tale of the Balmain Apartment Block
15:30 | The True Cost of Greed
21:37 | Shares and Spins
24:15 | Twofer
30:05 | Go Team Ty
33:16 | Stretching Those Mental Muscles
36:23 | The One Napkin to Rule Them All

Resources and Links:

[00:19:49] That's how I kind of wanted to get into property, because I saw how it had affected my father's life and how I wanted to in some ways educate people to try and show them, A, how to make money, but hopefully, B, not to lose it. So the whole depreciation thing that I do is helping people make their life more affordable.

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

 

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with Tyron Hyde, the CEO of quantity surveying company Washington Brown. He shares his incredible backstory that will make you feel every emotion under the sun, but don’t worry: He has a silver lining for everything. Whether you find him in Bali or in Sydney, Hyde radiates hope and happiness each and every day.

Tyrone Shum:   

Hyde has lived a life full of ups and downs, though with his sunny disposition, he manages to see the good in every situation. After a disjointed childhood and some tragic losses, he put his natural talent to work and is now reaping the benefits. As Washington Brown CEO and a loving family man, Hyde has created the life he always dreamed of.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:00:30] I've got a beautiful family, my wife, Sandy, and my beautiful daughter, Taylor. 

[00:00:37] I've travelled the world, we've just come back from living in Bali for two years, running the business remotely over there. Washington Brown's got about 40 staff now doing depreciation work. So we're got a really happy life to be honest, Tyrone. It's pretty eventful, and fruitful and rewarding. And I'm just really in a happy space at the moment.

Tyrone Shum:   

His wife has recently released a book detailing their unique travels.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:01:16] It's called Our Green Change. It's about our journey from Sydney to Bali, to take our daughter to the world's greenest school, which is this big bamboo school in the jungle in Ubud. It's got no walls, no aircon, drop toilets. And it was a fascinating experience. And the school focuses on environmentalism and entrepreneurialism. And so, like, 400 people from around the world go there. And I found myself running Washington Brown from this barley jungle school.

   

[00:02:04] Most of our staff are remote. So before we went to Bali, I put in a management structure to enable [us] to pack up and run a medium sized business remotely, especially one that's involved in hands on inspecting properties. It's not as though I'm a digital nomad.

 

[00:02:23] We talked about doing a big change for a long time. My wife's Italian, [she has an] Italian background, but the timezone there is not really realistic to do that. And then she was reading this article in the paper about the green school and she said, 'Would you go and live in Bali for a couple of years?' I'm like, 'Maybe that could work'. 

He put in a management structure to organise that, with a head of sales, head of marketing, and so on. In the end, it worked out so well that he believes the company runs better without him!

Tyron Hyde:  

[00:03:02] They stepped up, which was fantastic. And now it's running like that. It's still, it's continued. I didn't change the structure when I got back, I just focus on more of the running, doing these type of things, which I find more interesting. Well, not more interesting, but they run the business better. I work on the business, not in it as much, which is the goal of, I think, any entrepreneur.

  

[00:03:42] Dale Boehm, I saw on stage once, I saw when I was young, and said something like, 'You've got to work in your business, [if] you've got to go into your office every day, from seven till nine, you don't have a business, you got a job'. And he said, 'I don't want a job, I want a business'. And so the true test of the business, if you ask me, is if you can work remotely, travel around the world, and still continue to do that business, and have other people do it. That's a business. 

 

[00:04:06] That's also a saleable business. Because if someone wants to buy your business, they don't want to come in and have to work 12 hours a day, do they? They want to have a business that's running, regardless of whether the owner is there [or not]. It's not always that easy to do, of course, it's not that easy, but that is the goal.

Tyrone Shum:   

The Hyde family hadn’t heard of the Green School before coming across it and enrolling their daughter, but it spoke to them straight away. 

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:04:43] She read an article in The Good Weekend, there was an article in The Good Weekend in the Sydney Morning Herald about this Green School. I think it said something like this... not hippie school, but men go there with man buns and stuff like that. 

  

[00:05:01] Education was part of the key as well, like we've got a daughter that's very focused on study. We thought, well, maybe it's not a bad idea to have her exposed to a different kind of education system before she get[s] into high school. So we were always going to come back before high school. 

  

[00:05:19] But the education system there, the focus is not on tests. The focus is on the love of learning, get[ting] the child to love learning and also to love the environment. So that hopefully by the time they become 18 or 17 year olds, they become warriors for the environment as well. 

  

[00:05:32] I went there thinking, 'Oh, this is gonna be a bunch of tree hugging hippies'. It was the complete opposite. It was the complete opposite. I think maybe when it started 10 years ago, that was what it was. But now there's a lot more. There's a focus on the environment. But there's a lot of very clever switched on people that have done incredibly well that now wanted a change. Like I guess what we were like, and also had wanted to be involved in the child's study. 

  

[00:06:02] Because half the parents stay at the school during the day. There's no drop off, 'Here you go, you're not allowed into the school'. They've actually created a Green School for Adults there, which we love. So we were learning every day. 

  

[00:06:17] You can go to this thing called the Bridge. So there's a little kind of... like a workplace, but for adults, and every day, they'd have these fantastic talks. Whether it be an environmentalist, whether it be how to buy property in Bali, whether it be someone who's an activist. Like, Jacques Cousteau's granddaughter came and gave a talk, it was fascinating. And Michael Franti is the patron of the school. I don't know if you know Michael Franti, but he's a hugely famous singer. 

  

[00:06:53] So it's very, very different, very different to here where we drop off our daughter and we can't go in and see her and do anything like that, they encourage you to be there and be involved in school. Some would say that maybe too much, like sometimes the politics I guess, with having so much involvement, which is hard for the school to manage. But at least you're involved.

Tyrone Shum:   

The school environment looks and feels very different to how it does in Australia, and by the sounds of it, it may just have a different aroma as well.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:07:26] They have cows, and horses, cows, and they have sheep, rabbits, and they encourage the fact that music and gardening is as important to a child's development as maths and English. 

  

[00:07:40] And we thought that maybe when we got back to the traditional learning here, she would be kind of [behind, like she] didn't keep up, [but] it's [the] complete opposite. She just became dux of her year in year eight. So it didn't actually hinder her, which was great.

  

[00:08:30] One of the projects, one of the differences, they have, like, green studies there. So they encourage kids to pitch a project and she made a raincoat made of recycled plastic. She was learning about how to do it, how to manufacture it, but then of all the recycled plastic. So they do some really interesting programmes over there. 

  

[00:08:53] For instance, at the end of the class day at 3pm, the local community, the kids, they bring in a kilo of plastic, they get free. So about 300 kids every day come in and learn English for free, provided they bring in plastic from the local community bank jar. So the western end here at three and then come to local kids and learn and they teach them English.

Tyrone Shum:   

We dive into Hyde’s upbringing to discover how he became the businessman, husband, and father he is today.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:09:38] I grew up in Concord, which [is] near the Burwood [and] Strathfield area in Sydney. Back then it was a pretty working class suburb. Now it's million dollar homes and plus $2 million [homes]. The thought of a house in Concord selling back when I was growing up in [the] 1970s is quite bizarre. But it's a beautiful suburb. 

  

[00:10:07] When we went to high school there, it was kind of a brand new school, which was kind of really nice. I ended up marrying my high school sweetheart. So we met at school.

  

[00:10:20] I had a big family. I've got three sisters and one brother. So there's five of us. Both working class parents. They both had to work really hard to keep food on the table. My father was in the Air Force. For 12 years I was stationed in Singapore. I've actually got a a sixth brother, but he passed away when they were stationed in Singapore. 

  

[00:10:47] There's actually a chapter in this book, Our Green Change, where I went and tracked him down. It was like the burial. So he's in a war memorial, war cemetery over there. And I was actually at a Dale Beaumont conference, a business blueprint conference. I met Tyrone through that, by the way. 

  

[00:11:05] And I [thought], 'I will try and find my brother'. And I went there and I searched for the weekend, two days, I walked up and down this cemetery in Singapore, and couldn't find him. 

  

[00:11:15] And so I then came back to Bali where we were living. And I remember I said, 'Mum, where is he? Where's my brother George?' And she said, 'Oh, he's out the back, love'. That doesn't help. 

  

[00:11:26] So I contacted the London War Office and I thought I'm not gonna get [any answers]. So they sent me a map with a little star on it and said, 'Here he is'. And so then next time we were going to Singapore— because we have to leave Bali every two months for visa reasons, so you just go to Singapore sometimes and come back— and we went there on a search to find my brother and we found him and it was kind of emotional, to be honest.

Tyrone Shum:   

The tragic story always has him putting himself in his mother’s shoes as he imagines the devastation she must have felt.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:12:01] He was six weeks old. It wasn't cot death, but he had some virus that kind of killed him. So it was devastating for my mother, because she was in a foreign country. Imagine Singapore in 1958 or something like that. I can't quite remember the exact year, but it would have been pretty harrowing to have a child that's six weeks old, your first child as well. 

  

[00:12:25] She told me a story once where she was running down the streets with him in his arm. 'My baby's dead. My baby's dead'. Pretty teary there.

  

[00:12:44] My eldest sister now— so I'm 52— my older sister is about 65 and George would have been older so he would have been about 67 [or] 68 now, but it'd be quite a bit weird to have a 68 year old brother. 

  

[00:12:58] I'm 52 and I've got a nephew who's 43. So I was an uncle at the age of nine. Which is a bit weird, isn't it?

Tyrone Shum:   

The Hyde family is certainly a unique one, filled with interesting characters and their story packed with endless twists and turns.

Tyron Hyde:    

[00:20:40] But we did move around a little bit. Because what happened was my house burnt down when I was 14. Burnt to the smithereens. All the trophies were gone. And we came back and I remember driving down Build Road, and there was all these fire engines and I could see them from like a mile away. We were driving up the road. And as you got closer you go, 'Oh no'! And so we had to move around because they had to rebuild the house. And they put us in different houses around. 

  

[00:21:13] So then we moved to Homebush and Strathfield, around that area, but I still [went] to Concord High. And then my parents got divorced. And so then I was going through two different houses there and stuff. So a little bit of moving around, a bit of disruption in my childhood.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:21:34] Makes you stronger, adversity. Just out of curiosity, do you know what happened with the house? How did it get burnt down? Or did they give you a cause? 

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:21:41] [We] never found out, actually. 

  

[00:21:47] Well, back then, it was a timber house. I don't think it would have taken much. It wasn't like the fire regulations that we [have] here now. I reckon it could have been just like, a little spark, it was such [an] easy place to go up in smoke, I think.

  

[00:22:10] It's a funny thing. They built this new house. And I preferred the old one.

Tyrone Shum:   

Hyde continues to tell the story of his childhood family and explains how it all brought him to where he and his own family are now.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:13:21] The reason that we came back from Bali is because when COVID hit, we were like, 'Well, my mum's really old'. And we came back and she was in a nursing home at the time. So she actually passed away during COVID. She didn't get COVID, but I'm sure that many siblings and granddaughters and grandkids... she died of loneliness if you ask me, because we couldn't visit her during COVID. 

  

[00:13:48] So we came back for it. But then with the nursing home, we couldn't see her anyway. One of the only times I saw her was about 10 metres away, 'Hi Mum. Hi, Mum'. So that was sad. But I guess the only thing good about that was that we did make the right decision to come back. Because if I was stuck over there and couldn't get into the country for a funeral for my mum, I would have been mortified.

  

[00:14:13] So we kind of got a little lucky. But when she passed away, she was in a little spot where we could actually have like 40 people at the funeral, spaced out. It wasn't one of those funerals where it was only like, heartbreaking when only four people would go. We could have immediate family. So that was one thing, but...

Tyrone Shum:   

His father passed away around 20 years ago, after his own share of struggles.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:14:53] I was about 30. He was an incredibly smart man, my father. He was in the Air Force for 12 years. And then he had, like, four degrees, he was a TAFE lecturer.

  

[00:15:06] But one of my main recollections of my father is that he had a stroke. So when I was about 14, I think, he had a stroke. So [for] the last, like, 16 years of his life, he was paralysed on the left hand side. 

  

[00:15:19] But strokes are very different now. If you ring an ambulance within four hours of having a stroke, they can give you a tablet, and most people don't have strokes anymore. But back then— I'm not a doctor, don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure I've heard that on the ABC— you don't see as many people having strokes anymore. Back then you saw a lot more people having left hand side or right hand side strokes. 

  

[00:15:43] The equipment [for] dealing with strokes back then wasn't what it's like today. There'll be a lot more clothing that makes it easier to live, the shoes, and just even having a knife. When we bought my father a rocker knife— because you try and tie your shoelaces up with one hand, try and put on a belt with one hand after this podcast, try and do your buttons up with one hand, the things you take for granted. Try and cut a steak with one hand. 

  

[00:16:10] I remember one time we bought him a rocker knife, which is this knife which has a little bit at the end like a fork. So it has a knife and then a little, like, shape like that. And then at the end is a fork type element. So he could cut his steak, and then turn around and eat it. And it was like [all his] Christmases had come at once. It was a little thing like that that was amazing for him.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:16:32] We take it for granted.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:16:37] He was incredibly smart in terms of academically. But he wasn't that financially literate. And so he worked on his life, Tyrone. And he retired after [his] whole life working with five kids that you see. He got $250,000, I remember, around '88 when he retired, and he put it all into this company called Estate Mortgage, which was this non bank lender. And I remember the ads back then, it was 'Safe as houses', 'We're a bank', 'We're investing your money into property, we're safe as houses'. 

  

[00:17:20] But what they didn't tell you was they were actually putting it into development sites. They were lending to developers. And so when interest rates went up to 17%, which was the RBA rate, that means developers are borrowing money at 21%. They went broke. And all the money that my father had put into this fund got nullified. So he lost pretty much all his life's work, all his life's earnings, pretty much overnight. I think the administrators ended up giving him after three years, like, 13 cents in the dollar. 

  

[00:17:55] I remember when Burnsville was the company were the administrator, and I'm sure when he used to see a letter come in from them, he was just heartbroken as you would be after all your life and then losing everything. 

  

[00:18:08] So that's kind of where I started in property, because I wanted to educate people about things. 

  

[00:18:16] Like COVID didn't kill my mother, loneliness did, I'm sure the heartache of him losing all his money had a part to do with his demise. There's no doubt the stress of that. It's making me really bloody teary now.

Tyrone Shum:   

It’s an interesting and valuable lesson for everybody to learn.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:18:51] And one thing I'd reflect there would be: A bit of diversification wouldn't have been a bad thing for him.

  

[00:19:00] The funny thing about that is now if you put it into a bank, that $250,000 would have been government guaranteed. 

  

[00:19:08] I think that's what maybe some of the US funds are thinking at the moment, they put all their money in the SVP bank, maybe they should have split it up into different banks. But I guess yes, that's the one key lesson I've learnt from that is a bit of diversification. Don't have all your eggs into the one basket, even in the one bank. 

  

[00:19:27] I guess it's pretty safe [with] the Commonwealth [Bank] and ANZ. We've got different regulations here, which are very comforting. I was reading an article the other day where they were saying Australian banks are over regulated. I'm like, 'Nah, I'm pretty happy with their regulation. I'm good'.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:19:43] We need this in order to keep everything safe. Imagine what happens if a bank goes under. Gosh. It'd be devastating. 

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:19:49] That's how I kind of wanted to get into property, because I saw how it had affected my father's life and how I wanted to in some ways educate people to try and show them, A, how to make money, but hopefully, B, not to lose it. So the whole depreciation thing that I do is helping people make their life more affordable. That's what we do. Or their investment properties more affordable.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:20:16] And it helps people save money as well, too.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:20:20] Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, so that's kind of how I kind of got started into [property].

Tyrone Shum:   

His foray into property seemed to be written in the stars, as his university degree played a role as well. Like many young Australians, though, he took time out for a break from the grind.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:22:39] I did a degree in construction economics [at] UTS. There's not many people [who] do it. I've got a degree in construction, which is a bachelor of science, but majoring in construction economics. I did that for two years. And then I decided to backpack around the world, like all young Aussie[s] should.

  

[00:22:59] And so I took off and I worked for six months, saved up and then I backpacked for about two years. And I lived in London and travelled around Europe and Asia. But then I came back and the number one thing I learnt when I was travelling, Tyrone, was I don't want to work for minimum wage for the rest of my life. 

  

[00:23:19] Most people, I think, when they take a big gap year, or gap three years, they come back and they don't finish their degree. But having that experience of working for minimum wage, [I was like], 'I've got to finish this degree, I need to have a qualification here'. 

  

[00:23:35] I remember at the last bit— I was smoking cigarettes back then, stupid— but I remember I caught the train. I bought a can of Coke [and a] packet of cigarettes and I caught the train to work and that cost me more than I earnt that day. And I went, 'This is it. This is not right’. 

  

[00:23:56] So I maxed out my credit card and went off to— it was actually cheaper to go to Egypt and Turkey for the last two weeks of our journey than it was to live in London. So [I was] living on $2 a day in Egypt, catching local trains back in 1989 or something, back in Egypt, it was an experience. I was with my future wife at the time, we were doing it together. It was an experience.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:24:26] [Did] Sandy travel with you for a couple years then, doing the backpacking?

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:24:30] We kind of had a bit of a gap year from each other there as well. She was living in Hong Kong as a journalist at the time. But basically whenever we've been in the same country, we've been together. But I think everyone needs a bit of a break to make sure it's the right thing, you know. So whenever we've been in the same country, we've been together.

   

[00:25:16] I think travelling as a young adult is probably the best investment you can make, one of the best investments you can make. I think as a young adult, if you can, if you have $10,000 in your bank account that you've saved up— $10,000 back then, maybe you need, like, $15,000 these days— you can go away for a year, and not have to hit up your parents once and live on that. And I reckon that would be the best learning curve you could make, whether you have to forge your own path to work, be independent. I think that's a pretty good life learning skill right there.

  

[00:26:06] Because I've always had a bit of a entrepreneurial kind of thing, whenever I've travelled, you'd see something that's different over [there] that you haven't seen here yet. I guess it's harder now with the internet. It's pretty instantaneous, right? But back then, I remember thinking, 'This will go great in Australia'. I came back with all these ideas. I got back into quantity surveying.

Tyrone Shum:   

By the time he finished university he was 25, an age where most of his peers were well into their careers. Armed with his degree, he hit the streets to look for a job.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:27:12] And they said in the last year, I had to work within a firm. And there was an ad on the university column saying cadet wanted at this company called Washington Brown. Because I felt so old, I have to be honest, I went and stole all the ads. So I was the only one that turned up at the interview. 

  

[00:27:30] But I volunteered to work for a year, because I was so old. I felt I was so old. But now I look at a 25 year old and go, 'You weren't that old'. But I volunteered to work for that year. And then he offered me a job when I finished [my] degree. So I've kind of only ever worked for one quantity surveying company. And now I own it. I feel a bit like that shaving ad dude, Victor, [or] whatever his name was. 'I liked the company that much I bought it'.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:28:08] You're the classic example. So how long has it been, do you remember? 

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:28:14] I was 24. And now I'm 52. So it's been, like, 28 years I've been at Washington Brown. And that's part of the reason why I felt like Bali was calling, because [I] had been in the same job for so long. But the difficulty of Washington Brown is there's a lot of family. 

  

[00:28:42] I actually worked out the other day, the average length of employee time [who've] worked at Washington Brown is 15.2 years. Now that's pretty unusual in this day and age that people stay that long. But it's because we all get on, which is great.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:29:00] Especially [if] you're the owner, who wouldn't get along well with you?

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:29:05] I can't get rid of them, Tyrone!

Tyrone Shum:   

Hyde’s life has been anything but traditional in many ways, and the same can be said for his property investment journey. When he first got into property, he’d say he went down a different path to most— via quantity surveying rather than through bought properties.

Tyron Hyde:    

[00:00:13] I remember one time before my father died, I told him that I was doing this job [that] was going around. Because when I first started, depreciation wasn't a thing yet, it hadn't really started in this. So I did traditional credit surveying, which means that a developer might go to a bank and want to borrow $50 million. The bank doesn't just go, 'Okay, here you go, here's $50 million'. 

  

[00:00:36] They'll go to a valuer and say, 'Okay, well, the completed sales are worth $200 million, you bought the land for $50 million, what's it going to cost to build?' They go to an independent quantity surveyor that's on their panel. And the independent quantity surveyor will say $75 million or $100 million. 

  

[00:00:51] And then each month, you go out and you do what's called a progress claim. And you say, 'Okay, well, you've excavated the site, you've poured the transfer slab, you've done the block work on the site, the job's been 7% complete, probably 10% complete'. Therefore, if the total building work is $75 million, the bank will give the developer $7.5 million and hold the rest. So you do progressive payments, because they don't just go, 'Here you go, here's all the money'. There might be problems if they did them. 

 

[00:01:24] So that was my first job. And I did that for a long time. I loved it. I loved going out to building sites and learning construction techniques. And the developers that I met doing that were just fabulous. [I'd] have a coffee with them, talk about their building projects, and they loved talking to someone on their site. It was [a] really good experience in that regard. 

  

[00:01:44] So when I remember telling my father that I was going to these building sites, and doing all this kind of [stuff like] progress claims, it's probably the one time I remember him being really proud of me before he died. So it was really good.

Tyrone Shum:   

He’s met a large number of developers in his career, including one exceptionally notable name.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:02:20] It starts from Harry Triguboff down. He's been a client for 25 years. 

 

[00:02:30] He uses us for depreciation because he doesn't use banks, so he doesn't need progress claims. He funds most of his projects himself.

Tyrone Shum:   

In the past, Triguboff did need to use banks, but since then someone else has been filling that role ever since they met.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:02:47] I think he got to the point where he got wealthy enough where he just said...

 

[00:02:52] He'd be like, 'No thanks, I'll do it myself'. So we only did depreciation for him. And also, we did some other things like when the GST came along, we had to value every project. It was quite interesting, it was in the year 2000. So June 30, 2000. So we had to go around to every project that he had.

  

[00:03:15] And how it worked was when the GST came [in], if every building was 50% complete, all the work completed after that had to be GST payable, so sales would be 50%. 

  

[00:03:27] So we'd have to go [to] every building site he did and work out exactly what percentage completion of that project is. And it's kind of an arbitrary thing, like, how do you value exactly what it's like? Because some arguments would be that a job is more complete when you're out of the ground, because the risk has been taken out. 

  

[00:03:46] And actually, it was kind of a[n] interesting story where I remember being in this boardroom with one of the big four accounting firms. And I was only, like, I must have been 27 or something. [Maybe] 28. And we were talking about how to value these different buildings, that percentage completion. 

  

[00:04:01] And the accountant said, 'Well, no, you've just got to work out exactly how [many] dollars you've spent, and how much you're going to spend. If you spend 50% of the money, it's incomplete'. And Harry looked at me, going, 'What do you think?' He pointed at me. I said, 'I disagree'. I said, 'The risk is in the ground, Harry. Surely the percentage completion of the job has to be 60%. Because there's more risk'. He just looked at all, he went, 'Do what he said'. And he's been with me ever since.

Tyrone Shum:   

The groundwork needs to be laid just right for the foundation to fall into place without any problems. Problems mean delays, and as we know, time is money.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:05:00] It started with Harry. And it works its way down, I guess. Some of the more salubrious ones we've got, like, the top places of the world. We've worked with them over the times.

[00:05:12] But we haven't done work with them for a long [time]. 

  

[00:05:14] But down to developers that are doing 12 unit walk ups in Pendle Hill, or something like that. So we've worked with many range of developers over the years. Washington Brown doesn't just do big clients, I guess most of our clients now, in terms of tax, are your mum and dad investors, to be honest.

Tyrone Shum:   

As Hyde has broadened the scope of his business over time, it’s grown substantially in the last decade. Since Washington Brown has been evolving, Hyde gives an overview of what the company is all about.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:05:55] The main thing is, these days we do depreciation reports for whether you're buying a hotel, a residential two bedroom unit, a factory, commercial building. 

 

[00:06:06] So we'll go out to the property. Depending on what type of property or whether we've got the cost, we might not have to go to the property. But we work out what you can claim in terms of the wear and tear of that property. And that gives you a depreciation schedule, which will then reduce your taxable income. 

  

[00:06:22] Basically, we're trying to save property investors money, and the ATO accepts what we say, because there's a ruling on that. Accountants used to do it many years ago. And then they worked out that, through the combination of our construction cost skill, and our tax knowledge, that's a good combination to be the appropriate body to estimate these costs.

Tyrone Shum:   

As for his property journey, his first property was in typical Hyde style— unusual. Rather than a freestanding home or even a standard apartment block, he decided to take on an unconventional project.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:07:40] The first purchase I made was with a friend. It was the best investment still to this day I've made. 

 

[00:07:52] I was actually the QS on a project in Balmain. And I was doing the project certification and I put down, with a friend that I was living with at the time, we put down $1,000 each as a holding deposit. I don't know whether developers accept it these days, but back then you could put down $1000 as a holding deposit. 

  

[00:08:12] And then the builder went broke. And so the project got extended for, like, three years, and I was involved in the job and had to help the developer work out how we're going to finish this in terms of budget and literally paying the subcontractors directly, being involved in not just certifying the overall job, but certifying the actual individual sub contracts as well.

  

[00:08:42] It was a[n] apartment block, Balmain RSL, 440 Darling Street, I think it is. And so it was a big conversion, so it was actually quite a complicated build. And that's probably why the building price wasn't easy to get correct. 

  

[00:08:42] It was an existing building that had to be converted, like, an existing RSL Club converted into units. So [it was] very hard to price. Very hard to price. And so when the builder went broke, the developer had to take it over and take over the trades just to finish it. And I helped him in that process. 

  

[00:09:19] And so when it came to getting settled, three years later the price had gone up substantially. And so we didn't have to borrow any money. So they would take the equity and they'd go, 'Well, it's actually gone up $150,000' or whatever it was. So the $1,000 that I'd put in had multiplied by [an] exponential [amount]. 

  

[00:09:44] And I had no money back then, I was like, 'Oh my god, this is a good gig'. It hasn't always been that good.

Because it had gone past the sunset clause, the developer had his work cut out for him.

Tyron Hyde: 

[00:09:58] He was a very fair developer, he's a wonderful guy, I learnt an incredible amount from him— but what he did was he went back to some of the purchasers and said, 'Oh, look, it's gone up this much. You've made $100,000 from the extra time, I'm just asking for $30,000, just because the costs have gone up as well'. 

  

[00:10:16] And everyone did. He made it fair enough for everyone to do it. And it was a fair point. But because I'd helped him through the way, he didn't actually ask me. I was the only one that he didn't ask to do that, which is wonderful. 

  

[00:10:26] So the girl that put in with me, Janine, at the time, she got [the] golden ticket, because she didn't do any work and she got the benefit of it as well. We ended up selling that, but it was a really good investment. So that was the first one. 

  

[00:10:44] The other one I mentioned was another one, again, I didn't have much money. And so me, my wife Sandy— we weren't married at the time— and my brother, we all went thirds in the deposit. And I think it's a good way for younger people to get into the market. 

  

[00:11:02] You've got to have some rules around it. Like what if someone wants to get out? Have something written. If one person wants to get out, you should have something documented about what your exit strategies [are]. 

  

[00:11:18] But again, because we didn't all have the money to put in, I was actually working on the job. It was the finger wolf, Lang Walker.

  

[00:11:30] We just bought a small one bedder there. I can't remember what it cost, but it went up. But I did sell that one because the levees were so high. And so every time we kept putting into something bigger and bigger. 

 

[00:11:46] And so I bought a fair few properties over the years, that's for sure. But as I've gotten older I've tended to sell down and I'm the worst property investor now in terms of growth, Tyrone, because I don't have much gear, which is a nice position to be in. But I'm not gonna be the richest man in the grave. And I'm quite happy about that. I sleep well at night.

Tyrone Shum:   

We take a trip back to Bondi, where Hyde woke up to an idyllic view of the stunning suburb every day. As he loved it so much, he even tried to buy it twice.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:12:32] That was a beautiful spot in North Bondi, Brighton Boulevard. It's a beautiful view over Bondi. And there was only three in the block. So there was one two level penthouse and one below, and a wonderful man lived there, he died about five years ago, he was about 92 and loved it, and we were in the middle one. 

  

[00:12:53] And so when he passed away, I wanted to buy it, and I wanted to combine them. And the other guy upstairs, he wanted to buy it as well. So me and him got into a bit of a bidding war. And I know he was quite wealthy, and I know I'm gonna lose this war. So he ended up buying it, so he ended up owning these two. 

  

[00:13:11] And then when we were living in Bali, then he offered us [the place]. I wanted to die there. He started making some noise about 'Oh, come on, do you want the sell?' And I actually left him a copy of The Castle, the movie, at his doorstep and said, 'I'm gonna die here'. 

  

[00:13:30] Anyway, then he made us an offer too good to refuse. And so we sold and now we bought and live in Clovelly. Which, I guess it's a lot more calmer. But just as beautiful. And yeah, so now it's a nice spot to be here.

Tyrone Shum:   

His time in Bali taught him many things not taught in schools or universities or even in the workforce.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:14:04] You realise [it’s good] to slow down. You can be so busy, busy, busy trying to, you know, 'I'm so busy, I'm so busy'. But you get a bit more relaxed. The Balinese are a lot more relaxed and it's walking down the streets and just looking up. 

  

[00:14:19] That's what I really love about Clovelly. Look, don't get me wrong.

  

[00:14:21] I love Bondi. We lived there for 17 years. But I think I've just got a little bit older and it's not calmer. I love going back to Bondi, but when you live in Bondi it's different. People go, 'How can you live in Bondi? It's so busy', but when you live there, you don't have to go anywhere.

  

[00:14:42] If you've got a car spot, parking is not the issue. A lot of problems that people have about Bondi is parking, but if you've got a car spot there, it's not a problem. You don't have to leave on the weekends.

Tyrone Shum:   

Although his first two properties were such amazing deals that would make any investor swoon, his aha moment actually doesn’t feature property at all.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:15:30] I've invested in a lot of things, whether it be shares or property. But if there's one thing I've had to tell my daughter as a tip, well, firstly, [property] is a great vehicle, and read my book, darling, when you get older. 

  

[00:15:43] But the number one thing I would tell my daughter is to never borrow money for shares. And I said this to her the other day. I said, 'Taylor, what's rule number one about investing?' I said. 'Never buy money for shares'. 'What's rule number two?' 'Never forget rule number one'. 

  

[00:16:03] I've made a lot of money in property, but I've lost a lot of money in shares. And I still invest in shares. But I never borrow for shares. Someone said to me once when I was younger, 'If you can't afford to own a share, don't buy a share'. And I wish I took the advice. And twice I've nearly lost everything via greed. Pure and utter greed. 

  

[00:16:23] And that's why I guess as I got older, I started saying, 'Well, you know what? I don't want this debt'. It's not that I made bad investments in shares. They were good shares. But what happens [when] things like when the tech crash happened, and the GFC came along? You're forced into this situation where you have to either sell up.

  

[00:16:43] Say you buy $100 worth of shares, and you've borrowed 70% of that dollars and got 30% equity. [If] the stock market goes down 30%, which can happen, especially if you're in tech stocks, or the wrong type of stock, it's pretty easy to come back quickly. Your debt, your 30%, is down to zero. So you've either got to prop it up with your own cash, or sell. 

  

[00:17:08] So I never ever, I thought, why do you want to put good money after bad on these two occasions? And it snowballs, because people are getting margin called. And even though you know they're good stock, it might be BHP, it might be Commonwealth Bank, but you just gotta go, otherwise you've got to start drawing equity from to keep it. 

  

[00:17:26] So the gearing ratio. So why I say it's greed is because I was too geared. I was too heavily geared into shares. My only saving grace was that I'd never borrowed money against my properties to put into shares. I never borrowed against the business. 

If he were to start his journey all over again, Hyde sees this as one of the main things he wouldn’t change.

 

Tyron Hyde:  

[00:17:48] I would have lost everything. If I'd borrowed money against the business or borrowed money against properties to put into shares, it would have just gone to snow. So at least if you keep the assets separate, they're not going to be affected. So I still invest in shares, but definitely I never ever borrow.

  

[00:19:04] The thing is, when I was geared, Tyrone, I couldn't sleep because I would be worrying what the NASDAQ was doing overnight. And I was like, 'What am I doing?' And you're not focusing on your business. 

  

[00:19:17] So at least when you're not geared and you just put in this and you go, 'Okay, I'll just buy Commonwealth Bank shares'. They're gonna go up and down, but you can sleep well. 

  

[00:19:57] But if I was to start my share portfolio again I'd probably put half of it into the four banks. Because you know what? Banks don't lose. They paid pretty good dividend.

  

[00:20:13] If I was looking back at my 20 year old self, I'd probably say to myself, 'Why crypto when it first comes out?'

  

[00:20:36] You know when they start valuing companies that have no earnings based upon their revenue? It's a sure sign that there's something wrong with the model. 

 

[00:20:45] Another thing I've learnt in life is when something like a private equity company buys a company and then sells it onto the market, I'm wary of that company straight away. I'm not going to that float. Thanks, anyway. But I think there's a reason why you're selling.

Tyrone Shum:   

To the uninitiated, the share market can easily appear intimidating. Despite its lack of entry-level user friendliness, Hyde is quick to point out that it’s not that difficult— along with a few other things.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:21:37] Every time there's a good company announcement by someone, it's the worst time to buy that stock, because they already know. So it goes up. And then the next couple days, it's gone. So you sell an announcement, I've worked out, rather than by an announcement, because it's already priced in and inside knowledge must, even though it's hard to police, it's got to be there, because you just can see it.

Tyrone Shum:   

As we’ve all learnt post-2020, share market crashes are just one thing that can put the property market into a spin.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:22:24] I sold two properties during COVID. Because I could see that when prices were so low and everyone thought they were missing out, it's time to sell. Some of the properties I've sold over the years I've thought, 'I wish I kept that one'. But I've always generally put it back into the property market, probably in a bigger way. But it'd just look ridiculous to me.

 

[00:22:46] There's about three people in my life that ring me up at the top of a boom and say, 'Tyron, should I get in now?' And when those three people ring me up, I know it's the time to sell. They like my own personal... what's that saying in America? When the doorman starts giving you a tip...! I've got about three doormen in my life and I know when they're ringing me up asking for advice, it's time to go. 

  

[00:23:15] And I guess they were not my best performing properties.

  

[00:23:21] That's the thing during those times, when there's FOMO going on, that's a good time to actually maybe let go of some of the properties, your non performing properties. Not that everyone has the portfolio to do that, but that's a good time where everything's gonna sell. If I tried to sell those properties now, it probably would be a bit [of a] different story.

Tyrone Shum:   

One of his best deals was, again, an unusual situation, this time involving a commercial property.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:24:10] I didn't actually buy it in Washington Brown's name, I bought it in my super fund's name. And then Washington Brown became the tenant. And that is one of the best strategies. 

  

[00:24:17] If you've got a business and you can actually own the property that you're within and you can become the tenant, well, you know you've got no tenant risk. And in a super fund, it's one of the best things about your super fund, well it was until now, but you lower tax rate on your income.

 

[00:24:38] I bought a 300 square metre office in Pitt Street and Washington Brown became the tenant, and that income was going into my super fund, but only taxed at 15%. Obviously now they're gonna raise it to 30% if you're one of those people who have over $3 million in your super fund. But it's still 15% under that. 

  

[00:24:57] So it is a good strategy that you take out the tenant risk. And I bought that during the GFC. And that person couldn't get a tenant. And I thought, 'Well, I can be the tenant'. And so it was a great buy. And then I sold that just while we were in Bali, just before COVID, which was lucky. I didn't know COVID was coming. I've got to be honest with you, Tyrone.

 

[00:25:27] Because I'd set up the business for people to work more remotely, there was a lot of vacant space within the office. So I was like, 'Well, I don't need this bigger space'. And so we just rented one down on the same floor, but a couple of suites down from where we were. And then he couldn't get a tenant, unfortunately. So he chopped it up into four small suites. And now I've rented one of them back off him. So it's gone the full circle.

Tyrone Shum:   

If pre-2020 saw everybody working in the office and 2020 saw everybody working from home, Hyde’s settled on a happy medium that works for both him and his staff.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:26:15] I go back once a fortnight [or] once a week, just [for] the social interaction and getting out of the house. And that's what most do, but we don't really need to... a lot of my staff, like, I've got one guy who lives on the northern beaches. He was travelling an hour and a half each way. He's got three hours extra to spend with his kids. And so they love it. 

  

[00:26:38] Most of my employees have kids. We don't have many 21 year olds. So they're more family orientated. And so they love the extra time to pick up the kids or to spend time with the kids. Everyone's getting an extra couple of hours a day.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:26:58] And especially the dread of travelling, because I find that it's always been difficult, getting on trains and stuff like that. And when I was travelling to the city every day from where I was living, it was a dreadful hour and a half, as much as I love the quietness, to get away and stuff like that. I just felt like it was just the grind. And you find that that extra hour and a half makes you feel a lot better, because you're not in that kind of stress around you as well.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:27:21] But it's not a grind when you're only doing [it] once a week or once a fortnight.

Tyrone Shum:   

Hyde has written two books, but the process to publication wasn’t quite the stress-free experience he had hoped for.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:28:00] And then the laws changed in 2017. And so we can no longer claim depreciation on plant equipment on secondhand properties anymore. And so half of [the] book went out the window, so I had to rewrite it and keep claiming it. Which covers all new budget changes. 

 

[00:28:23] So, look, it's not just about property. It's not just about depreciation. That might put a few people to sleep. It's about property investment in general, about my property investing journey. There's about a chapter on High Rise Harry, my association with Harry and working with him over the years. 

  

[00:28:38] It's not just about depreciation, even though it's called Keep Claiming: A Property Depreciation Guide. It's about property investment. So the funny thing is, I think the number one overwhelming response when I launched it was, 'Wow, Ty, it's actually readable. Thank you'.

  

[00:29:03] And I joke that it became a bestseller, an Australian best seller. And I say well, because in order to have a best seller on your book, you have to sell a minimum [of] 7,000 copies. And [it] became a bestseller. So the fact that my mother bought 5,000 copies is completely irrelevant.

  

[00:29:25] But when I launched it. I actually said to the publisher, because I just thought as a marketing thing, that people put 'bestseller' on it. I thought, 'Everyone just does that, don't they?' And I said to my publisher, 'Can you just put that on it?' 'No, you have to actually legitimately [earn it]'. I went, 'Really? I just thought it was marketing'. There's actually laws around it.

Tyrone Shum:   

Some people claim that writing a book is a bit like running a marathon, but only a few can claim they’ve done both and have the ability to compare.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:30:05] I've done four [marathons]. I've got a sore back now, Tyrone, I don't know if I can do another one. But I've done four. I did Sydney when I was about 30. Then I had a break. And then I have always wanted to do the New York one. That was probably one of the highlights of my life. 

  

[00:30:22] [The] New York Marathon is special. You run through the whole five boroughs of New York, and you run up to Harlem, and the sound of Rocky beating through the streets of Harlem, do dah dah dah, dah, dah. So you're adding like a 32nd kilometre, you hear it to the streets. 

  

[00:30:44] And the whole way when I was doing the marathon, I wore an Aussie shirt. And I had 'Go Ty' and then on the back, I had 'Aussie Aussie Aussie'. And so the whole way I heard 'Aussie Aussie Aussie' and on the back I had 'Oi oi oi' . 

  

[00:30:59] The New York Marathon, the whole way, it is, like, seven to 10 deep on streets. It is such a huge event. It's huge. And they've got, like, bands on every street corner, they've got, like, gospel choirs and it's something special, it really is special. 

  

[00:31:20] Then you run through Harlem. And then you come back down [and] you finish in Central Park. And then when I got to Central Park, there was my wife and my daughter and my mum waiting for me. They've got grandstands there and I was so emotional, 'I did it, I did it', it was a really, really special day.

Tyrone Shum:   

The 42-kilometre New York Marathon was definitely a fitness test and a half, showing Hyde he had the ability to conquer his physical goals as well as his property goals.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:32:07] I'm kind of an all or nothing guy. Because a marathon is a big challenge. Mentally it's more of a challenge. So when I do it, if I commit to one, I reckon I could still do one. But you've got to train for, like, four months, at least, to get there. Because you do it in increments. You might start on doing 10k and then 12k.

  

[00:32:26] What you tend to do is you do one long run a week. So you might start six months out or five months out, you start at, say, 10. Then the next weekend on a Saturday, you might do two intermediate runs during the week. And then on the next Saturday, you'll do 14. And then you'll keep adding it closer, you time it until you get to, like, 38k before you do your big marathon run. 

  

[00:32:52] So it's a process. You've got to build up your legs to get to that point. But then if you only run 38, let me tell you, that last four kilometres where you haven't done that extra, If kills. I've actually read other strategies where you actually run further than a marathon before you run the marathon.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:33:16] It's so interesting. It's about strategy as well, too, because it sounds like you got to have a plan. You can't just go and run that marathon. It's all mental. It's mental.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:33:24] It's all mental. But when you're actually in the marathon, sometimes it's harder training, because there's no one else there saying, 'Come on'. When you're there and if you're slowing down, people will come and help you. 'Come on, let's go', and you're like, 'Okay'.

   

[00:33:53] I broke four hours. I think I did 3:50? Something like that. So it's a long time.

Tyrone Shum:   

Mental strength and abilities play a large role in both running and the sport we call property investment. While one works out your physical muscles, the other works on the mental ones.

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:34:15] Well, learning, I guess I would say that would be learning. So you have to do a lot of study in order to do that. And I've always been educating myself. 

  

[00:34:26] When I first started into depreciation, there [were] no books on how to do it. So I used to sit there all night and try and read tax laws. I know that might not sound exciting, but I used to love it. I used to love it. 

  

[00:34:40] And then a client would come along with a certain different case or they've done something different, because there's so many ways of structuring or different scenarios in property that we still do all the time. There's different leases, they've bought a property halfway, it's been half renovated or the builder's gone broke, and then they're taking it over. 

  

[00:35:03] And so how do we then structure that into what we end up giving the client a report? So there's many different ways and different rulings on those type of things. And so I try and get my head into that. so I can give the client the best knowledge for them to save money. 

  

[00:35:20] And so just a life learning of tax has helped me build Washington Brown. And also the construction knowledge that I also had from doing all the progress claims, actually knowing how building stuff and what it costs to actually build that has benefited Washington Brown, and our clients.

  

[00:35:50] With developers, so when you're dealing with the Harry Trigguboffs of the world, you're learning, like, 'Harry, I've gotta be honest with you. I don't think anyone knows more about property depreciation than, I'd say, like, the head of the QS quantity surveying firms that specialise in this'. I'd say he'd know more about it than a lot of quantity surveyors out there. Because he knows so much about every asset of his business. It's amazing. It's amazing.

When he first completed the book, he sent Trigguboff a signed copy as a thank you for his recommendation. Of course, that was far from the end of it.

Tyron Hyde:  

[00:36:23] He wrote one of the recommendations on my book, which is pretty cool. I used to have lunch with him every year. And I said, 'Harry, I've got a book coming out and you're in it. Do you want to read it before it's released?' 

 

[00:36:34] So he read it at lunch. And then he got a napkin over. He got a napkin and he signed it.

  

[00:36:41] He wrote, 'I made up my mind to work with Tyron when I saw him, and I never went to another quantity surveyor and I've never regretted it. Harry Trigguboff'. He signed it on a napkin at lunch. That's what I use, because Harry doesn't have a computer. Never had a computer in his life. He doesn't need a computer. He knows he can buy land for $50,000, build it for $150,000— this was back a long time ago— and sell it for $400,000, it works. ‘Why do I need a Macquarie Bank spreadsheet?’

 

[00:37:19] So when I sent him the book, he must have read it. And then his executive assistant phoned me up about a week later and said, 'Harry wants to buy six more books'. I went, 'Why?' She said because he's making his executive team all read it. So they had an understanding of it. 

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:37:49] So out of all the things you've done, your business, your property and stuff, how much of that success is due to intelligence, hard work, and skill? And how much of it do you think has been because of luck?

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:38:00] Oh, that's a good question.

  

[00:38:03] I think any successful person that says that luck doesn't have a big part in it is lying. 

  

[00:38:09] I was lucky. I'm lucky to have met my wife, for starters. And this is true, because I was lucky that— she'll love me saying this— but I feel like sometimes I'm the luckiest man in the world. When I die, I want to have the song Lucky Man played at my funeral.

  

[00:38:32] Luck has been a part of it. I was lucky that I met my partner at Washington Brown. I was lucky that I met my wife, because in year 12, I wasn't going [anywhere. In] year 11 I was a bit of a rat bag. And I wasn't studying that well. And then we kind of got together in year 12. And I saw that maybe I should start studying. And if I didn't meet her, I wouldn't have  studied enough to get the marks to go to university. So in that regard, I was lucky. 

 

[00:38:59] I was lucky that I met Tony, my partner at WashingtonBrown, and he had a business that was quantity surveying. And I was lucky in that I went down the path of depreciation schedules. 

  

[00:39:14] But then there's the other side, there's also the determination of doing this. And I, at the age of 27, left Washington Brown and started my own little business. And [said], 'I can do this by myself'. At 27 I picked up and I had no money and I was just ringing people up and saying, 'Hey, there's this new tax law that's come out' and drive around from development site to development site offering these developers a free marketing estimate so that they could possibly sell this to help them sell the units. 

 

[00:39:45] And no one was doing this at the point. There was only one other quantity surveyor that started here at that point. So it kind of paved the way in this whole field. So is that luck or is that determination? I would say that's more entrepreneurialism. This is before the Internet. This is when you had to post out a quote.

 

[00:40:07] But definitely luck has had a big part. If I had to give a ratio, I reckon it's 50/50.

 

[00:40:14] That's a cop out. I reckon it's 30% luck.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:40:35] If people want to reach out to you, want to learn more about your journey, especially in Bali, and all the changes that you've gone through? What's the best way to learn more from you and access those books?

Tyron Hyde:   

[00:40:45] Well, this has got a bit about our whole family journey. It's not just about Bali. It's about how I ran Washington Brown, it's Our Green Change. If you Google Our Green Change. It's not a technical book. Obviously. It's a memoir by my wife. It's a story.

  

[00:41:05] After this podcast, Google 'Green School' and click on the images and you'll see what a fantastic structure [it is]. Every day they have architectural walks through the buildings there. So if you're in Bali, they encourage you to visit the school and walk through it. 

  

[00:41:53] I had a meeting yesterday with a financial planner that I'm talking with at the moment. He's got kids, I think [they're] nine, seven, and four. I talked to him about it, he'd never heard of it and, and I wasn't there to sell a book or anything. We were just talking about it. 

[00:42:06] And then I get a message from him an hour later saying, 'I just bought three books. My wife's really interested in this school'. I'm like, 'I'm not an ad for the school, but it is a very unique experience'. And the good thing is the timezone. So people I think, especially now with COVID, people are going, 'Well, maybe I can travel and study and kids can work'. If I can work from home all the time, maybe I can work from home somewhere else.

  

[00:42:49] Bali is not ‘cheap’ cheap anymore, but it's more affordable than Sydney. Like, we rented our apartment out where we were in Bondi and that paid for our lifestyle. We didn't live in a big mansion, we had an open house compared to what some of the Western places lived down in Canggu there. We were pretty modest in a local community that we lived in. But then also being open plan meant you have frogs jumping through your living room and snakes and all those types of things. Living in nature, it was beautiful.

Thank you to Tyron Hyde, our guest on this episode of Property Investory.