Join us on this episode of Property Investory where we learn about Pilkington’s childhood growing up in the north of Sydney, how her parents inspired her to pursue a career in real estate, her various roles that led her to where she is today, and so much more!

Timestamps:
2:07 | Early Days
5:46 | The Anvil ERA
7:39 | Squash and Schoolies
9:15 | If I Start Something, I Like to Finish It
11:12 | Qualification Qualms
13:27 | Old Chicks Rule
15:11 | From Burnout to Consultant of the Year
17:38 | Shopping Skills Come in Handy After All
21:37 | It’s the Things You Do When You Don’t Realise Anybody is Watching
24:06 | If You Can Sell Your Vision for the Future Clearly Enough, People Will Come Along for the Ride
28:11 | Life Gets in The Way

Resources and Links:

[00:25:25] I never saw myself as a leader. And so I rang all of my franchise owners and said, 'Look, this is what's happened'. And they were overwhelmingly excited about it. And I kind of rang all of them, got off the phone and thought, 'That's weird. Why am I so happy? I don't think I can do this. Why do they think I can?’

 

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

 

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re speaking with the managing director of Laing and Simmons and president of the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales, Leanne Pilkington. We’ll follow her journey from the Northern Beaches of Sydney, working for her parents, to becoming an empowering and inspiring female role model in real estate and for women everywhere.

 

 

Pilkington has always been determined to smash the glass ceiling, and in her decades in real estate she has done just that. This is who she has become.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:00:24] I'm the managing director of the franchise organisation Laing and Simmons where I've been for 25 years. I'm also the current president of the Real Estate Institute of New South Wales. And I sit on the board of the Real Estate Institute of Australia. And I am also the co-founder of a networking group called Real Women in Real Estate, which is just about supporting women in and around property.

Tyrone Shum:  

With so many titles under her belt and jobs on her hands, Pilkington leads a busy life. She shares with us what she typically does on an average day.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:01:06] Laing and Simmons has 45 offices in and around New South Wales. Because it's a relatively small number, my days are really varied. So I'll be talking to our business owners, tomorrow I'm going out to an auction to support one of our team members with his very first auction. I could be organising training. I've got my own podcast called Courageous Conversation. So I host podcasts as well. 

[00:01:37] So yeah, all kinds of different things, signing new franchise agreements, going out doing new business presentations to potential franchisees, interviewing new team members, you name it. Marketing plans, social media plans. That's what I love about my job, is just the sheer variety of everything I get to do every day.

Tyrone Shum:  

Pilkington takes a journey back to her childhood so we can get to know her more personally.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:02:07] I grew up in Forestville and Belrose on the Northern Beaches of Sydney, went to high school at Davidson High. My father had a real estate business in the Hills District. He ended up moving the family when I was 18, moved the family over to Castle Hill. And I still live now in Glenhaven, which is northwest of Sydney, just near Dural.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:02:41] Oh, that's wonderful. So growing up over in Forestville, what was that like, going to primary school and all that there?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:02:53] Gosh, it's a long time ago, I can barely remember. But I think I had a pretty typical upbringing. Dad wasn't a real estate agent in those days. He was a travelling salesperson, travelling around the state. Mom was a stay at home mum. I've got a sister who is three years younger, a brother who's eight years younger than me. Mum and Dad didn't have a lot of money in those days. I remember it was an exciting day if Mum could actually afford to buy us an ice cream on the way home from school. 

[00:03:26] But things changed as we got older and Dad started his real estate business. Actually, he started his real estate business in 1973— he opened his first office and within three months, he got very sick with glandular fever. So my poor mum, who'd been at home with kids for about 12 years, had to go and run the business whilst Dad recovered. And she ended up being really good at it! So Dad ended up opening another office for Mum because they couldn't work together. That's a bit tough. Mum was a great real estate agent. And both Mum and Dad stayed in the business until they retired. 

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:04:15] Wow. That's amazing. So in Castle Hill, back in the 70s it was still kind of farm area, wasn't it?

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:04:23] Yeah. A lot of it. Where I live at Glenhaven— you would know Gilbert Road— back in those days, that was a dirt track. So it's changed massively. And it's still changing! A lot of Kellyville, where you are, that was all farmland and all that sort of stuff. So there's a lot of development going on.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:04:44] Still is, even north Kellyville there's still a lot of blocks of land, and further out that way there's still a lot of development that's still going on. 

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:04:52] There sure is. We had a deposit on a property in Box Hill, my gosh, 25 years ago now, and it was $330,000 for five acres of land.

[00:05:06] And on the day of exchange, the vendors changed their mind. And of course, that parcel of land, maybe three years ago sold for multi multi millions of dollars, that five acres. I just get depressed every time I think about it!

To delve further into Pilkington’s childhood and her parents’ careers in real estate, she details the beginnings of her father’s company and what it has become today.

[00:05:46] Dad started a brand called Anvil Realty. Because it was short, it was strong. And it was at the beginning of the alphabet, because back in those days, everybody used the Yellow Pages and the phone book to find whatever they needed. So a different time. He ended up with three offices in the Hills District. And then there was a brand from the US that came out called ERA. And their premise was— I don't know whether you ever watched MASH? But Colonel Sherman Potter, he was literally their poster boy. And we had this poster in the office of him in his hard helmet, saying, 'if we can't sell your property, we'll buy it'. And so that's going right back into the late '70s. That was their premise. Dad only ever had to buy one property from somebody, we actually did buy a property. And of course, now in the US, I buyers are everywhere. It's a very, very common phenomenon over there. Still not very popular here. And the Ray White brand in 1997 bought out ERA and so Dad converted his business to a Ray White.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:07:06] Which is still there! Actually, I actually know the owners there.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:07:10] Ray White Castle Hill. Yeah, Dad used to own Ray White Castle Hill and, in fact, owned that building.

Tyrone Shum:  

[00:07:16] Wow, that's excellent. A family business that's still there. And you've obviously carried on the brand from there. So tell us a little bit more about growing up— you said around about when you were 18 years old, you actually moved over to Castle Hill. What was that like for you? 

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:07:39] So this is my 40th year in real estate. I'm giving away my age, but I'm 58. I went straight from high school, in fact, I was Dad's Sunday girl because I was a competitive squash player. So I used to play squash every Saturday and I worked for dad every Sunday. He paid me $5 a day. I'm old, but I'm not that old! He was tight! 

[00:08:21] I was planning on being a school teacher but I went up to the Gold Coast as everybody did— as everybody still does, for Schoolies— yes, Schoolies was invented back in those days! And I ran out of money and he was going to send me some money so long as I could work for him until uni went back. So I was going to go to Teacher's College. 

[00:08:44] And of course, I never went. I stayed and I enrolled to become a valuer. So I used to drive and in those days, it did take about an hour and a half. I used to drive from Baulkham Hills, the office was originally, to the city, to Ultimo three nights a week for four years to become a valuer. I was working seven days a week, I was studying three nights a week for four years. Amazing the energy you have!

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:09:15] It was really, really full on. I don't actually know how I did it. But I was determined. I'm one of those people that if I start something, I like to finish it. And within the first 12 months I realised valuation was not for me. I was never very good at maths and of course, it's all maths. And you don't have a lot to do with people, really, as a valuer, and I'm a people person. 

[00:09:42] But anyway, I started it so I finished it, and I went on to work for Dad. I started as the receptionist, worked through property management, and then I was a salesperson and I worked for him until I was in my late 20s. He used to fire me every Friday— he thinks it's funny now when he tells people the story. But yeah, we used to fight. And that was as much my fault as it was he is if I'm honest.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:10:13] Well, it is hard. I've worked for my parents before in their business. And it's challenging because we have different thoughts. There's one way that we can do it, but then they want it done that way. But at the end of the day, we're family.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:10:25] Yeah, that's right. And you don't have the boundaries. There's no way any of my team would ever dream of speaking to me the way I spoke to my dad. So I often say that unfortunately, I didn't really get good at what I do until after I left Dad, because I had to learn to have a bit more respect for the people I was working for. And I didn't show Dad the respect I should have probably, during those times. Hopefully he won't watch this.

Tyrone Shum:  

While she didn’t go straight from high school to university, Pilkington wasn’t going to let that stop her from achieving her goal of obtaining a degree.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:11:12] I went back to university in my 40s and did an MBA. I don't have too many regrets in my life, but one of the things that I do regret was not going to uni straight from school. I did study, obviously. And it wasn't just evaluation, I did my real estate licence, I did my auctioneers certificate, I did a whole lot of stuff. But I regretted not actually having that university degree. 

[00:11:45] By that stage, I was also the GM at Laing and Simmons. And I felt if anything happened to my job at Laing and Simmons, nobody would give me a job at that level unless I had that qualification behind me. And I'm not even sure that that's as relevant today. It's interesting with education. It wasn't that important, then it became incredibly important. And now, I think whilst uni is a wonderful... it's wonderful to learn. But there's lots of people that just get out there and hustle, right? And I don't necessarily have to have that formal degree these days. 

Tyrone Shum:   

She shares her experiences with hiring and training employees, and gives insight into her preference of who she would hire.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:13:27] I'm in a position at the moment where I've put together a group that has bought the Laing and Simmons brand. And there's all different areas that I want to expand into. And I'm just looking at who I need for those roles. And as much as I love the enthusiasm of youth— old chicks rule. It's not just wisdom, it's empathy. It's stability. I know people that are building their careers typically only want to hang around for two or three years. So in my world, two or three years goes by like that. And it's like, 'Oh, God, have I gotta recruit again, am I gonna re-train again?'. Whilst every new person brings different opportunities and different experiences, it's just a pain in the neck.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:14:22] The last thing you want to do is after you've trained them all up, spent at least a good 12 months getting them into that position, then they leave a year later, it's like gonna start all over again. 

Leanne Pilkington:  

[00:14:33] What's worse, though, right? You train them and they leave, or you don't train them and they stay?

 

Coming up after the break we will delve into Pilkington’s career prospects pre-real estate...

 

[00:16:13] So I actually temped for a while. Because I didn't really have any skills, other than I was good with people. Computers were barely invented in those days, embarrassingly. 

 

We discuss her stops and starts in various industries...

 

[00:20:06] Because I'd taken up quite a big step back from a centre manager to a franchise administrator, it was like a 30% pay cut, 25 years ago. So it was a big step backwards for me, but I just wanted to be in a happy place.

 

We delve into her beginnings at Laing and Simmons.

 

[00:21:37] I started in Laing and Simmons in 1995. In 1997, the business was bought by our commercial franchisee, so they were both the franchisor and franchisee. And very soon after they bought the business, they fired the general manager, my old boyfriend.

 

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

 

 

Tyrone Shum:  

Pilkington dives into her progression from working for her father, to travelling, to having an epiphany that changed the course of her career.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:15:11] I ended up going to Europe for three or four months, as all Australians do. And Dad would never let me have holidays. So I actually had four months paid leave. So I went to Europe and on the plane on the way back, I thought, 'I can't do this anymore'. And so I got off the plane and I resigned. What a terrible, awful thing to do. But it wasn't my intention. It was only when I got away and actually had that clear brain space that I realised it's just not what I want to do. 

 

[00:15:45] And— part of the problem— real estate's an incredible career, but as I already said, I was working seven days a week, I was studying three nights a week. Of course that challenged me intellectually. So it wasn't like I was just cruising through. And I was burnt out. I think if I had gotten into selling real estate in my 30s, I'd probably still be doing it now. But I started too early, I went too hard. And I burnt myself out. 

[00:16:13] So I actually temped for a while. Because I didn't really have any skills, other than I was good with people. Computers were barely invented in those days, embarrassingly. So I temped for a while. And after about three or four months, the recruiters said to me, 'Actually, Leanne, we think you would be a great recruitment consultant'. And I said, 'Okay, well, I don't even really know what you people do, quite frankly'. So I went in, and I spent some time with them. And I did in fact, spend three years as a recruiter. In those days was a company called Centrecom. They had over 200 consultants around the country. And in my second year in that business, I won their consultant of the year, which was amazing.

[00:17:04] I was really proud of that. And it was a great job. I really enjoyed it, but it was a bit repetitive for me, because you're doing the same thing. You're finding your business, you're interviewing people... so I was offered a job. An old boyfriend of mine was a shopping centre manager at Brighton Le-Sands, and he offered me a job as an assistant centre manager. So I looked after the shopping centre, but also the office tower next door. 

[00:17:38] I'd never had any experience in retail or commercial. I often joke that the only experience I had before I got to the shopping centre was that I'm a really good shopper. It made a big difference! My old boyfriend got the sack, and I got his job. So I was promoted to centre manager— he still speaks to me!— and I stayed there for three or four years. And unfortunately, my regional manager at the time thought that our relationship should be somewhat different than it was. And so I had one of those awful #metoo moments that I did come out and speak about on LinkedIn a year or two ago, if anybody wants to see the story, they can connect with me on LinkedIn, it's all there. And so I left that job. And I worked for a property developer for 12 months.

[00:18:50] He focused on retail. So my shopping centre experience was obviously was good there. But that job wasn't really what I thought it was going to be. And he ran out of money. And so I ended up getting offered— another old boyfriend, there's a pattern, right?—  another old boyfriend offered me a job as the marketing and admin manager, or franchise coordinator, I think my original title was, at Laing and Simmons. He's the general manager. And so I went there. 

[00:19:29] And it was really interesting, because I'd known him... we were no longer in a relationship, and hadn't been for quite some time, but we'd stayed friends. So I was very well aware of the Laing and Simmons brand, and I really liked it. And I was horrified when I got there. We did some research and I found out that the franchisees hated each other, and they hated head office even more. I said to my friend, 'All right, we've got two choices here. Either I go and find a new job, because I can't— I've just been in a toxic culture for years, and I just can't do it. Because I'd taken up quite a big step back from a centre manager to a franchise administrator, it was like a 30% pay cut, 25 years ago. So it was a big step backwards for me, but I just wanted to be in a happy place. I just wanted to enjoy what I did, and the people around me. 

[00:20:24] And so I went, I found out that Laing and Simmons wasn't as happy as I thought it was, I said, 'Okay, either I'm gonna go find another job, or we can work together to change the culture'. And he was up for that. And so that's what we did. And that culture change is not fast. But it's changed massively now. And if you talk to anybody about Laing and Simmons, that's one of the things that they will tell you, is that we have an amazing culture within the organisation. So I'm really proud that we could actually affect positive change in that space.

She goes on to further detail her beginnings at Laing and Simmons, and delves into an experience she had that changed her perception of herself.

[00:21:37] I started in Laing and Simmons in 1995. In 1997, the business was bought by our commercial franchisee, so they were both the franchisor and franchisee. And very soon after they bought the business, they fired the general manager, my old boyfriend.

[00:22:13] When I started at Laing and Simmons, the people that owned them owned a lot of different businesses, they owned wineries and car parks and all kinds of things. And so the CEO was a man that I didn't really know very well, I knew him, but he had very little to do with me, or the Laing and Simmons side of the business. But when Rob and Tony bought the business, they actually said to them, 'Whatever you do, hold on to Leanne, because she's the one who's actually running the business'. I didn't know that he even knew what I did. And so the lesson for me was it's the things that you do when you don't realise anybody's watching. That was what set me on my own leadership path, really.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:22:56] Yeah. And it sounds like actions spoke louder than the words.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:22:59] Yeah, for sure. So when Rob and Tony bought the business, Tony moved into that— they fired the previous GM, Tony moved into that role. And so Tony and I worked together for about 18 months, and I loved it. I always saw myself as a really good number two. Tony's a very charismatic man, and everybody wanted to be around him, and he would go out and, as charismatic men tend to do, 'We'll make this happen!'. And then he would leave and I'd run around in the background, making everything happen. 

[00:23:39] I tell my promotion story often. When they bought the business, I'd just been promised a pay rise. And as I said, I took a 30% pay cut to get there. And I was working again, seven days a week. That just seems to be who I am. And I had just negotiated a pay rise, and then all of a sudden, these guys were buying the business and everything was off the table. 

 

[00:24:06] And I was filthy. So I stormed down to the— because I knew the guys, they were my franchisees— so I stormed down there and I was determined to get a pay rise. An hour later, I turned around with no pay rise and no pay rise in the foreseeable future, excited about what they could bring to Laing and Simmons. And so that was another lesson to me. If you can sell your vision for the future clearly enough, people will come along for the ride just to see if you can get people excited about it. And so for a long time, they got me very, very cheap, I can tell you. 

[00:24:47] And then Tony was on his way, he was going on holidays. And he was walking out the door and as he left he went 'See you later kiddo, I'll see you in two weeks', and then he walked backwards and said to me 'By the way, you are much better at this franchising stuff than I am. I'm going back to selling commercial real estate, you're going to be my GM. Anyway, I'll see you in a fortnight'. And off he went. And I'm like, 'What just happened?'. And I still didn't get a pay rise, it was like, show me what you can do. And six months later, I got a really good pay rise. So that was crazy. 

[00:25:25] And I never saw myself as a leader. And so I rang all of my franchise owners and said, 'Look, this is what's happened'. And they were overwhelmingly excited about it. And I kind of rang all of them, got off the phone and thought, 'That's weird. Why am I so happy? I don't think I can do this. Why do they think I can?'. And so I rang a few of them back and said, 'Why are you so happy about this?' And they said, 'Leanne, we know how much you care about us. We know how much you care about our businesses. And we know how much you care about the Laing and Simmons brand. And that's what we want'. That's what people want from their leaders. They want to know how much you care. So that was another really, really important lesson for me. 

Tyrone Shum:  

We turn to Pilkington’s property investing journey as she discusses the first property she bought, and her current investing strategy. 

[00:26:37] I bought my first property with my boyfriend at the time and my sister, when I was still living at home with Mum and Dad. So we bought a property in the west of Sydney. And eventually, when my boyfriend became my husband, we bought my sister out, and we moved into it. We stayed there for a few years, and then actually bought the house we're in now. We almost bought at Box Hill. But sadly, no. So we're at Glenhaven in the Northwest. 

[00:27:09] And yeah, we also invest in property. We've got a very specific strategy around our property investment, though we invest in our Super fund— we've got a do it yourself Super fund. Which is not that easy, to borrow money in a Super fund these days, however, we have some property and we buy property that we can add value to. So we've bought property in, again, the west of Sydney, on big blocks that we can add a granny flat to. That's been really successful for us. We bought well, at the right time before the market started to really kick out in areas like Blacktown and Quakers Hill. So that's been our strategy.

Tyrone Shum:  

She delves further into when she started investing into her Self Managed Super fund, and describes some of the financial struggles she had at the time.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:28:11] There could have been. Life gets in the way. My husband and I— when we bought our first house when we first got married, it was back in... it's our 30th anniversary this year. 1991 we got married. You're too young to remember, but interest rates were like 17 or 18%.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:28:41] My parents told me about that story.

Leanne Pilkington:   

[00:28:44] Shocking, and our first home was only... I think I paid $140,000. So our mortgage, by today's standards, was not very big. I was a recruiter in the early days there, and then I moved into the shopping centre. My husband was in a job that he got a lot of overtime. So that was how we— my commission and his overtime was basically what we needed to get through. 

[00:29:11] I still remember very clearly that we actually didn't have enough money to buy food to get through the week. So we would have to have dinner at my parents' one night a week, and his parents' one night a week to get through. I can remember randomly seeing a pizza ad and buying pizza for dinner one night, and I stressed for the rest of the week, because that was really our food money for the rest of the week. And it's like, 'Why did you do that?'. So life gets in the way and then by the time we started to have the money to actually invest in property, we just decided that super was the most tax effective way for us to actually do that. 

 

[00:30:23] For us the properties that we decided to buy, we bought them for return, for yield. That's not necessarily the strategy for everybody. So you've really got to look at your own circumstances and take some advice from the professionals. I'm a professional real estate franchisor, I wouldn't pretend to give people advice around property purchasing and building a portfolio.

[00:31:14] And one of the things that a lot of our business owners do is talk to their own teams and say, 'Okay, what are your dreams?', and often, it's about getting into property for the first time. So they'll put a strategy together to help the employee to actually save the money for a deposit, connect them with the right mortgage brokers. It's really important to understand what banks look at, for example, when they're going to lend you money. Things like Netflix and Uber Eats, they go right through all of your spending. And all of those things is really... if you know that in three years’ time you want to buy a property, then you need to get that stuff sorted out now, ahead of time. There's no point in three years’ time going, 'Right, I want to borrow money', for the bank to go 'Oh, no, sorry, you spent too much money on Uber Eats'. Seriously, it's crazy what the banks look at!

[00:32:30] My argument's always been— well, I mean, I've got a serious shoe habit, as anybody who knows me will attest to, and I'm like, 'Well, I can afford to buy shoes at the moment. But if I wanted to get another mortgage, I would have to stop buying shoes. So why is what I was spending last month relevant on what I'm going to be spending next month?'. But the banks don't see it that way.

 

Leanne Pilkington’s story continues in the next episode of Property Investory. Join us for part two where we’ll discuss how everybody has insecurities...

 

[00:05:47] They tapped me on the shoulder and said, 'We'd like you to consider being our next president'. I was like, 'Are you for real? Like, I can't do that, why can I do that?' And I thought to myself, 'Oh Leanne, get over yourself. Of course you can do it.' 

 

How sometimes things don’t work out the way we planned, and why that isn’t necessarily a bad thing...

 

[00:10:22] One of the things that I do with my team every year is we write a letter to ourselves in December of every year to be read at the December of the following year. We write it as if we've achieved all of these things. So it's like a business plan by another name, right? And 2019, I struggled with it, and I wasn't looking forward to 2020— little did I know what was going to happen in 2020, right?!

We hear about her other ventures and what got the ball rolling on those.

[00:22:03] But from a mindset, interestingly, I've mentioned that I started the Real Women in Real Estate network. And I started that because I was nagged to death about it, from a couple of girls that worked for me. 

 

And that’s next time on Property Investory.