It’s important to establish a learning culture where an organization acknowledges mistakes and a certain level of openness is enforced so processes are improved and mistakes are worked on. We want people who make mistakes to own up and learn before it becomes a bigger issue. However, it does not mean we should not hold people accountable for mistakes when that is warranted. When people, including the media, make a big deal about all the mistakes that have been made, we encourage people to push them under the rug and pretend they did not happen. When that happens, people do not learn and improve. In this episode of the Thriving in Complexity podcast, Susanne speaks with Kathy Campbell, an experienced non-executive director. Kathy is currently a Director on the Board of the Brisbane North Primary Health Network (PHN) and the Wide Bay Hospital and Health Service (HHS). She is also qualified accountant (FCPA and FCA) and a Fellow of the Australasian Institute of Digital Health. Kathy shares her learnings from working across complex health systems. We cover the challenges associated with scaling projects, the benefits of thinking systemically, avoiding blame cultures, and engaging with consumers and other stakeholders. If you’re wanting to get a better understanding of how people governing our health systems think, you should enjoy this episode.