Safety FM with Jay Allen
Bill Stettiner
April 21, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Bill Stettiner. During the interview, they discuss Bill's career and his thoughts about the ASSP and the BCSP. Our host presents a challenge to the CEO and the President of the ASSP. Find out more on the Jay Allen Show! Consider joining us on Patreon!
thing is brought to you by safety Eyes Streaming Safety FM dot life Hello and welcome to this addition of the J. Allen Show. Today's Tuesday, April 21st of 2020. I hope all is well with you and yours as we continue to go through these difficult times throughout the world. Well, I want you to sit back today and enjoy a conversation that I'm about to have here with. Bills Trainer, also known as Uncle Bill Unlinked in Bill, is a safety professional with over 20 years of experience. He says that he enjoys building relationships and has the ability to explain technical concept to non technical folks in a fun in non threatening way.  Bill has a great deal of experience with successful change. Management in building culture of safety is a major change for many in the construction industry, just as it was in the Marines and the Fire Service bill has learned teamwork in the Marines and learn how to be self sufficient in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. He learned process for McDonald's and learned how to work, employ well with others in kindergarten. Yes, you might be wondering if Bill, our Uncle Bill is a comedian. Sounds that way from time to time.  Well, take this moment and welcome bill to the share. Got it? Got it. Got a good How are you doing today? I'm doing How are you doing? I'm doing about the same. So thanks for taking the time of actually doing this. I know that this was probably one of those weird things in life you're like, Why is this dude randomly reaching out to me via linked in to try to get me on to a show? Well, you know, as we are all extremely busy right now, I know you understand the sacrifices I'm making.  Uh oh. He Hawes over. So, you know, I got nothing until two. Okay, Well, that's that's the important part. So let's see. I'm in the Eastern Time zone. You're in. Let's see your in the Pacific Pacific. Also you We got some time, then for sure. That's the good part. Why? I appreciate your taking the time to do this. So originally, when I reached out to you, I was interested in having you. Come on. Of course. Everybody's talking about the same thing. Covert 19. The things that are going on in the world and, of course, the world of safety where we kind of hang out in.  So as I started going down the journey, the more research I did about you, the more interesting a guy. So I like to always start start off asking people all kinds of weird questions. But I guess I'll start off asking the most, I guess. Obvious question. How did you start getting involved in the world to safety? You know, it's a funny question. Um, I joined the Marines in 1984 Okay. And safety, you know, it's cool to say safety is everyone's responsibility, but safety was the small unit leaders responsibility.  Okay, Yes, Everyone was responsible for their own safety and the safety of their teammates, but there wasn't a special safety person. You know what I mean? The corporal or this sergeant was in charge of safety. Uh, after the Marines, I played around in the, uh, I t field and got into, uh, project management and business process and things like that. And again, this was all stuff that I was used to handling as a non commissioned officer. Right? You know, we have a process. How do we improve it?  How do we make it take less time? How do we make it more effective? How do we make it take less effort? Right. So it was kind of weird. I kept, uh, going back in my mind towards what I had learned and finding it to be useful, right? What my mentors had taught me. Then I got into the fire service and both as a volunteer and as a paid firefighter and as an empty and a voluntary empty. And I enjoyed the heck out of that. I got to help people, but it got old very quickly because you never got to prevent the problem.  You always helped with cleaning it up. I took a job as an MT. At a construction site, and for the first time, I'm working with people whose title is safety. And they're they're explaining all this stuff to me. And it it sounds like Wait a minute. Why is this a job? Why are there special safety people? It didn't It didn't make any sense to me from my perspective. But I thought, gosh, here's something I could make a difference at. Right. So I took my OSHA 10. I took my OSHA 30.  I took my OSHA 500. Uh, that 90 59 01 5900. I don't remember all the numbers, but basically, I took a whole mess of classes. And then I started helping Mawr and Mawr on the safety side because there was very little for the MT to do. And so I had some really good mentors, and they were showing me things and all the things they thought were bad that safety people sometimes do, like, you know, running in and say Everyone stop. You're all horrible people, and I'm going to issue you citations. Um, these were all things that I had learned in the Marine Corps and in the fire service.  These were these were not good ideas, right? You want to come in and you want to say, Hey, how's it going? What do we do it? Why did you choose to do it this way? What? What were your trade offs? You know what I mean. You have conversations with people you don't dictate. So then I got a job just doing safety in construction. Then I was able to right up enough of my history so that the B C S P said OK. You You've got two years experience in safety.  So I took the CHS t test, and now I'm a safety guy. Hold on. You did use, um, unique wording there. He wrote up enough to show that you had two years experience. But at this point, you had way more than that. I mean, not solely as a safety person, but you had enough things things be CSP doesn't particularly care for the fire service as a azan example of safety experience. Right. So I had to show that I was responsible for the safety of my people, not just putting out fires and, you know, untangling cars from around people. Yeah.  I mean, why would putting out fires or untangling cars counters anything towards safety? I mean, what are you talking about here so often? Sarcasm. Just in case sarcasm. Just to get get your life, we perceive the world through a lens, right? And so if you take someone whose only experience is, uh, only experience with the fire service is the movie Backdraft or or the show emergency? Then you think that the primary requirement for being a firefighter is a mustache, right? Um, if if your only experience with the military is watching Gomer Pyle or Hogan's Heroes, then your impression of, uh, the leadership, skills and abilities of a non commissioned officer it is fairly low, right?  We we all view the world through our our own lens and our perspective. Whether you call it perspective or bias or whatever, we're stuck with it because it's built into us. So at the B. C S P, in many safety people think of firefighters as horrible safety people because they always want to run forward and just fix things. No, you actually have to exercise that muscle between your ears as a firefighter. Sometimes avatar management services exist to make the world a safer place. And in the wake of Kobe 19 they could help you conduct your essential safety.  Training Avatar is offering you a free 60 day access to their learning management system with their LMS. Your training will be mobile, friendly and easy to upload. For more information, call Avatar Management Services at 3309633900 or visit their website at Avatar m s dot com During these challenging times, it is important to maintain focus on all industry risk. Unfortunately, slips, trips and falls continue to be significant risks in the workplace. And it whom Training and Envirodyne slip simulator has bourbon to reduce the risk of slips trips and falls by up to 70% through innovated hazard awareness that is also lots of fun.  Search, slip, similiar or visit in via nine dot com. For more information on purchase lease or to schedule on slip simulator training, we can work together to improve safety at your workplace. Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need. Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford slash Safety of Way are back on the J. Allen Show on safety FM, and I think that's what people tend to forget from time to time. So how did it lead you into the safeties?  Makes it led you into the safety space because of the different things that you have done and you realize how easy it was? Well, say easy with air quotes, Of course. So part of it is that with air quotes just but part of it is, uh it was a way to get ahead of the curve right ahead of the title way. So as a firefighter, whether whether you're a volunteer or a paid firefighter, because, honestly, there there's no difference. Um, to the emotions and the brainpower required and everything else.  Okay, uh, the person filling that slot might be different, but the requirements of the same. So let's say you're a volunteer firefighter, and so you have a pager that's gonna go off. And when it goes off, it turns on radio receiver so that you can hear the call. Okay, and it plays a recording of the call. You You now know whatever the dispatcher knows about what's wrong, and you have to go there, figure out what's actually wrong if it's different, which is 99% of the time, unless it's like a fire, fires are easy.  Um, and then you have to quickly use the little Lego blocks of skill sets that you have to build the solution to the problem. Okay, you don't get to get ahead of it. And that was kind of what was need in the Marine Corps and kind of what was neat doing. Ah, business process analysis and engineering and re engineering was that you could get ahead of the problem, right? You could You could prevent the horrible calamity, right? You could prevent the next calamity. Um and so that was the neat thing about safety was.  Now, instead of showing up and there's blood everywhere and broken bones and people in need of immediate help, here's your chance to say, Hey, wait a minute. What? What if instead of just a sign that says 20 miles an hour around this corner But wait, just blocked off the road right now, you and I know that someone would just run into the blockade we built, but it you know, it's the thought of how do we prevent the pain and anguish and and horrible results on unwanted outcomes. So as you decided to go down this and do this stuff, what has actually kind of been the driving force behind everything?  I mean, So you've taken a look at the different aspects. Of course, you have a lot of experience. I mean, right there from when you were in the Marines, to pretty much the firefighting thing, especially with something that you're doing right now. We're talking boy, 84 current. Got about accurate. Well, there was a big break. Okay, So after fun in the sun 91 I got out of the Marines, and I did a year running. Ah, software store. Okay, that's that's a hell of a change. Well, that was the job I could find. Okay.  Well, then that makes sense. The thing is, when when, But believe it or not, even though every Veterans day, everybody says, Hey, you know, thank you for your sacrifices, and they mean it. That's important that you understand that they mean it. People fear hiring veterans. Um, because they're different. It's not because veterans air scary. It's that they're different. They think differently. Okay, so after fun in the sun. 91 right? You know, we just had a 10 day war, okay? And and we stopped it because we ran out of background music.  You know, people started playing stuff and the higher upset. No, no, that's it. If you people can't find your own music, we're done here. But when I get out, I started trying to find jobs that I thought were things I could handle, right? I figured, Well, I should be, You know, uh, running a business unit or doing this or doing, you know, something important. I I have all this experience. People were terrified, right? Add onto that the fact that I was, ah, high school dropout with a G e d.  And had no college except for a bunch of one off classes. Viet Navy campus, right? Hey, those those count, don't you know? Don't discredit them. They count, They count. Right? And I studied aeronautical engineering flight operations, which was a major. I made myself okay, but it doesn't. It doesn't equal a degree, right? Especially in the nineties and even even today, people look at that degree and they say, Okay, you're qualified to start at the bottom. And if you don't have that degree, you're not qualified to even start at the bottom.  So after a month of living in what used to be my old bedroom at my parents house, which was now my mother's office for her tax business, I decided I just need a job so I can make money so I can have an apartment. Right? So I went and I took a part time job selling at. Here's a blast from the past Egghead software. Nice. Within. Within 30 days, I was the assistant manager of the store because no, nobody who was working there wanted anything out of their job there, but the discount on software and hardware.  So let me let me kind of go a little bit further down. Then, if you don't mind, how does? Okay. And I know that a few days ago I asked you this before we kind of got on. And I normally don't try to get any information ahead of time, just on purpose. And when I asked you, how did you come up with the character of Uncle Bill? You told me that is not a character. Now I've seen the videos online in. I mean, if I if I would say I would have said that they're very character driven.  But you told me No. That is a pretty much a term of endearment that you got when you were in the military. So how did this come about that you decide to start going? Let's post some of the stuff online. Uh, it was Mawr. Uh, the fire service. Um, I wasn't old enough to be Uncle Bill when I was in the Marines. Oh, okay. So I have I have this whether you call it a blessing or a curse. I inconsistencies, uh, flash out at me, right or what I perceive as inconsistencies.  So they're not necessarily inconsistent. Just what I see as being consistent and one of the inconsistencies that has really been bugging me, um is kind of this bias that I perceive in the safety community, okay, Not the folks outside the safety community, but within the safety community. And so I was looking for ways to to express that, right? So I'm gonna express a new idea. Two people and I want them to actually listen instead of getting turned off. So I typed, try and be a little fun about it, right?  And I talked to them like I would talk to people on a construction site or people in a firehouse or people in a squad bay, right? It just honest and genuine and a little bit of humor mixed in because you've got a captive audience, and so it's easy, right? And so this is how I would communicate with people in the fire service in the military, in construction safety in industrial city. So I just brought that to the to the screen, basically because I had nowhere else to bring it right.  You know, you you can only have so many safety interventions with your cat. This J. Allen show. Uncertainty in the unexpected are uncomfortable, and even though we are in the sea of it, you don't need to feel adrift that be highly reliable. 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Best safety ok dot com for more information. Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need. Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford slash Safety of Em Way are back on the J. Allen Show on safety FM before they decided to try to kick you out. Yes, absolutely. Well, I was gonna say before. Well, then let me ask the question because you're taking the we'll see the different approach, But you're also kind of tied into a group.  And if I will go by name here with the American Society of Safety Professionals, that's kind of world known for standardization and doing certain standards. So how does how does your vision lineup of what they're doing? So I have I have no problem with standardization, right? I think standardization is good, but where? Where? I have some differences of opinion. Okay, just strictly speaking about the SSP, right? Are is this gonna be okay? I want to make sure I don't get into any trouble if you read my stuff.  I say this all the time. I say this as SSP meetings, whether it's regional meetings, uh, local meetings. I said it at the national meeting last year. I'll say it again at the national meeting this year if we have one, uh, it zits looking virtual at the moment, just and I understand. And that'll make it easier for people to um So currently, we say that there is a difference between a member of SSP and a professional member of SSP. Okay. You with me? So far, I am.  Okay, so the main difference is a degree in anything. Okay, that's a pregnant pause. I understand. Waiting for feedback. Um, I'm usedto conversations in person, so I can't see your facial expressions, so I know that that's why I love radio in podcasting. So much. So you have a PhD, right? Correct. Um, may I ask, what is your PhD industrial organizational psychology? Okay. Now, to my mind that is something that could be very useful to a safety professional. Okay, what if your PhD was in animal husbandry? We're definitely be taking a different approach to life at the boat.  Now here's the thing. Um, as as a safety professional, something that at some point we all come to grips with is that people from all kinds of different backgrounds can be very successful at what we do. Does that make sense? Yeah, I agree. So there's there's no there's no line that says someone with a PhD in animal husbandry cannot be a safety professional, right? And there should not be line. I'm not. I'm not advocating for that. What I am advocating for is if a person with a degree in a the doctor is in, uh, please correct me if I get this wrong industrial and organizational psychology, okay?  And a person with a PhD in history of the American musical. If both these people are qualified to be professional members, then why wouldn't someone with 30 years experience in industry or 30 years experience in the Marine Corps or 36 years experience in the fire service? I'm not so so let me ask the question there. Is that something that's enforced by the A S S P or is it enforced by the B. C S B. Which ones actually making that determination? Both groups independently have rules that are very, very similar.  The difference is the BCS P says you must have this degree to sit for the CSP test. Okay? And at the SSP, they say you must have this degree to be a professional member. Okay, so the two are different If you have a C S P certification from before the four year degree was required, right? You still can't be a professional member of the A S S P unless you have a four year degree or better. It's on the website. It's in the rules. So do you think that the rules are outdated and antiquated?  I think this is an opinion question. So I mean, that's why I want to make sure And I don't want to get anybody in trouble, because I know that sometimes, because here's what happens a lot of times, if I talk to someone and this is the norm, that's from the A s, S p or involved of the A s S b. Either the conversation gets cut really, really short or they don't want to go down the path with me. And I can understand to some extent, here's the thing.  I have nothing to lose, right? I don't. I don't make money running an organization that prefers memberships or, uh, prefers certifications or anything like that, right? I'm just a person trying to disrupt the status quo, so I have no problem talking about this. And what's the worst that can happen to me? Oh, are they gonna someone gonna kick me out? Really? That would you to be exiled. You'll be exiled. There's already a B is B. C s P sniper team outside my house. You shouldn't even joke about that.  I mean something that this funny part that you mentioned that because a lot of people tell me that based on some of the things that I say on one of my other shows, that I should be careful of what I say about the SSP and the and the B. C. S. B because you know they're there. They're significant money involved with some of the things that they dio and that I should take that into account before I say some of the stuff that I say, but sometimes they just don't have some common sense when I'm actually doing it well.  But here's the thing. There's nothing wrong with them making money. They need to make money to exist, right? We can't help anybody if we can't keep the lights off. Okay, So like recently the BCS P came out and said that their exam core could be used for re certification. Right? And I put a thing up on Lincoln where I said, Is this an ethical problem? And several people came out and said, Your stupid It's okay for them to make money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah And they miss the point the point, or or I failed to get my point across, right?  Let's let's be 100% fair, right? They might have missed it, or I might have failed to get my point across. But it's not about the BCS P making money. It's about the fact that the B. C S P authorizes instructional entities, whether it's the A S, S p or some training company, somewhere to issue, see, use, and then they turn around and they authorized himself to issue see ease. This is a conflict one time, of course, it raises ethical questions, and people were were just pinning on the money.  And it's like, Well, what? Why doesn't anyone understand what I'm saying about ethics? And at first I thought it's because ethics isn't taught in college. That's not the problem. The problem is that there are so many different schools of thought on ethics, and I am stuck with my view on ethics that I was taught and that I have taught others and other people are stuck with their view on ethics, and many people think of ethics and fiduciary responsibilities as the same. So at any rate, back to the A S S P. If we agree that a person with a bachelor's degree in history of the American musical and a person with a bachelor's degree in theoretical physics are 100% identical when it comes to that plus two years experience and safety, you can sit for the SSP SSP CSP B C s P CSP test, right?  Already test. Then we're saying these air both valid sets of prerequisites to be a safety. Professional. How is that different than 30 years? Experience in the Marine Corps being mentored and mentoring others or 30 years experience in the fire service for 30 years, experience in industry. And what have you been told? Uh, at the SSP. They told me they were looking into that and thank me for bringing it up. Um, how many years ago? I'm joking. Last time I said it in public. Okay, so I said it at a rock meeting, right?  Regional operating conference, and and I told it out. That is a great point. Thank you so much. And then I said it at the House of Delegates meeting or for the actually the annual members meeting after the House of Delegates meeting in in New Orleans last year. And again, everybody in the room applauded and gave me, you know, the eighth grade nod, and several people came up and spoke to me. You know, people in positions of authority in the organization. They didn't take you into a different room wearing 100 people with authority.  You said people with authority, you know, pull decided target. I just want to make sure you're very positive about it, and yet there's been no change. Now I think part of this is because, you know, I write about it up on Lincoln and people respond with, Well, it's a profession. There must be a barrier to entry. But there is, and there isn't. That's the fun part about the whole thing. I mean, it's kind of like it's an older set of rules. Now, what throws me off for get to be kind of weird out about some of the stuff that actually occurs inside of the A S S. P in particular?  Is that okay? They have a lot of good concepts in regards of what they're trying to protect, and I'm not saying that they don't. But what happens is is they make it seem like they're going after millennials, which, if you look at some of their marketing aspect, there's a lot of millennials in their marketing. It is great, but what I have went to some of the meetings, I have not felt that same way that there's tons of millennials there, especially from the national side. But a lot of the rule said seem to be like older demographic, like those things have not been advanced or changed.  The other portion that I look at is that I go and look at some of the requirements like I refuse to get a certification based on based on me having a doctorate. So why should I have to get something else in regard to being part of this part of this group? That's just my my opinion, that's what What I've often to dio now. I did have a certification coming up because I used to be in the transportation world quite a bit, okay? And I remember talk. You wanting to talk to someone inside of the SSP about their membership for the show, and I was actually on the conference floor.  One thing this was in San Antonio and I was told that they would not talk to me on the air because I actually had certification related to another organization. This was this was free air time. I was there, I wanted them to promote their memberships, and I was told no, because I had a designation from the World Safety Organization, not the World Health Organization, this picture. So I thought I'd ever since then it's kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. That was one of the things and into some of the weird requirements on some of the other things that have taken place.  So let me kind of go back for a moment. You right now have a C H S t. Which for those who don't know a construction health and safety technician. So would you would you do it over again? The thing is, uh, I'm in California and California. Very certification centric. Okay, um, you either have to have a degree or certification there to work if you want to do something other than going to the freezer and getting the box. So I got this. That's what that that's with the union.  Keep that in mind. Okay, so, you know, the union doesn't want a higher Ah, 53 year old or even a 48 year old because the union rules say, at 55 you can retire. Um, so they're terrified that I'm just gonna be around for a few years and then retire. Um, but but at any rate, the I like the idea of both the BCS p in the SSP. Okay. I think they're great ideas. I think that, like with anything, everything could be improved with iterative improvements. J. Allen Show Hop University We cut the bull of human and organisational performance training.  We were born out of Necessity Way. Hear it all the time. Human organization Performance courses are expensive and hard to find. Safety classes put me to sleep. Help. So we did. We offer on demand, high quality online courses and human and organisational performance, safety and leadership all in by season safety and hot practitioners. No need to schedule time for that conference. No need to track down the latest guru in no stuffy classroom required. Join Us Day at hot university dot org's That's H o p university dot RG. Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need.  Make sure to join us on patri on Ford slash Safety of em and we are back on the J. Allen show on Safety FM. Okay, so let's run with that then. So let's say, for instance, tomorrow the A s S b and the B S c p reach out to you and say, Hey, listen, Bill, we want to get some of your ideas. We want to move forward with it. What would be the first thing you would want to change? And no, I'm not gonna ask you to run for president next.  Just in case somebody already had the discussion. Said history was the first SSP president to be assassinated. Oh, geez. Wow. You did. You went deep and dark relatively quick in the military and the fire service. That's where humor goes deep and dark. Well, well, well, well. Both of my parents were in the Marines, so I kind of know where it comes from, but it just, you know, for audience purposes, it's kinda like, Wow, where did what did you say? OK, so for instance, why don't we start with the B. C S P just because that's where the certifications come from.  Okay, so currently, we have different rules for different people for taking tests, right? Correct. So if you have a a PhD, the amount of experience you need to take a test is different. Then if you have a bachelor's degree or no degree whatsoever, and that kind of comes out of the world of academia, right, where your status, your title. Your level of completion of education has a bearing on your status. Okay. But you know what else the world of academia has is they have a publish or perish rule.  So why don't we? If we're gonna follow the rest of what academia says, why wouldn't we? We do the one stringent thing that they do, which is you have to publish original thoughts and original ideas, and it has to be approved of by your peers. Okay, Why don't we have a rule like that? Why isn't that part of re certification? And have you brought this up and have you received an answer? I brought it up on LinkedIn, but you know how that is. You get people from linked in, and I'm not picking on people on LinkedIn, but we get a lot of keyboard warriors, and I mean that with the with the best thing behind it.  You have some people that agree, some people that disagree, and that's perfectly fine. But then you have some people that take these really deep dives into. I just want to argue for the sake of arguing, and then they want to type a way of let me bring my other for remembering my other connections in for we can argue with you to see if you actually just close it down. Well, yeah, there is a lot of that, but it's a public four that has reached two people that for involved um, Now, I can't really communicate with anyone directly in the B. C. S. P because those that I was connected with are no longer connected with me.  Um, uh, they they removed themselves or you remove them. They remove themselves, but it could be many reasons we won't speculate about. There was there was a virus inside of the computer system that caused them to remove you in particular. That's what it was. They were using Lotus notes now joking, expert. Now, as as we move on from that point in theory, if we there is very valid reasons for saying Hey, wait a minute, you don't just have to have a safety degree to be a safety professional.  But since we specify an ethical code, you would think that X number of hours of instruction or mentoring in ethics and a proven ability to utilize ethics would be a pre requisite for any certification? Um, ethical validation of ethical knowledge and abilities and traits isn't really easily, um, judged by a multiple guest computer test. Right. Um, if you had any of the b. C s B certifications, you would have seen some ethical questions on the test. Uh, the ethical questions I saw on the test were kind of kindergarten level.  They were so simplified that the answer was obvious. Okay, And realistically, where we're ethics to me, where ethics comes in is when everyone around you wants you to take a certain action that, you know, deep down his role, that's where ethics comes. Okay, Um, so that would be the next step is going to have prerequisites. Let's have prerequisites that build towards what we say is important, right? We say every time there is a study or a survey done, we say that the soft skills air quotes are the most important thing to a safety professional.  So leadership, communication, ethics, morality, intestinal fortitude, you know, these sorts of now I have an issue with society. Referring to these is soft skills, and my belief is that we refer to them a soft skills because they're not easily taught in a classroom with a book doesn't mean they can't be. But there it's not easy, okay? It's not easy to build standardized testing for these things. And yet universities used to teach this 60 70 80 years ago, right? It used to be a byproduct of your education, right? The Marine Corps, the U. S. Army, the US Navy, the Air Force, the Coast Guard sports teams, the fire service, the police department, a pair paramilitary type organization, service type organization seemed have ways of teaching this.  So where where did we lose it? And why can't we bring it back? Why? We refer to them as soft skills, air quotes. But are they soft or are they re alive? Hard, technical things that can be taught can be learned, can be mentored, can be germinated, whatever you want to say and develop. And I think they can. Okay, So maybe instead of saying, are our barrier to entry is you must have a degree. How about our buried entry is that you must prove that you understand ethical behavior.  So let me ask a strange question. And I know that you referenced earlier the strategy that you have a GED. So are you. Would you think that people might say that you're saying this because you're anti college degree? Well, I've also got six years of college. I'm not anti college, and I'm not anti degree. So just as I think it's wrong for some to say because you don't have a degree. You can't do this. I also think it's wrong to say Well, because you do have a degree, you can't do this, right?  Both Both of the opposite sides of the same coin. Okay, let me let me ask you this When you originally got your bachelors degree. Okay, Did did you meet any single person in your college career? Those 1st 456 years, however long it took you to get your bachelors, you really? You said you said that You said five years. Geez, man, what you think I think it was something like that. You're right. I also know people who did it in three, but yeah, I was taking the van. I took the V and Wyler pass a bit longer than most anyone in college who you felt possibly wasn't someone you would want to trust with.  Uh, your car, your family, your business. Yeah, Most people. Um So what you get out of college is based on what you put into it? Possibly it hypothetically, it is possible to get the degree and not really learn and retain new things for new ideas. Or we agreed. Agreed. So so is the piece of paper which we say is universal. Right. So at the B. C S P, if you have a four year degree in animal husbandry from a university in Wyoming that is accredited or a four year degree in market Indian language studies from a four year university in India that these are the same, how are they the same?  It's all about perspective, but you already know this. It is. But what we used to do was we would make the person with the foreign degree go through a special set of hoops to prove that their degree was equivalent to the U. S. Meanwhile, in the world of education, a majority of the world is ahead of the U. S. Absolutely right. So it just seems odd. Why should I? If I got a degree in France or Germany, why should I have to prove that it's equivalent to a degree in the United States.  When when I was in high school, they were saying that a secondary school diploma was equal to a four year degree in the United States. Right? Ah, European secondary school diploma was equal to, ah baccalaureate degree in many subjects in the United States. Do you know how many people are upset right now that you just said that out loud? I mean, here's gonna hear is in me the funny part about this some of this conversation, You know that some of the groups that you're talking about, some of their higher ups, they're gonna listen to this and of course, there gonna be upset about the conversation being had.  But this is also a conversation that needs to be had in a public forum. I believe where the discussion is there, and let's kind of get some people to really have the conversation opposed to you. Let's hide behind our our rules and our guidelines. And this is the stuff that we have written out. And we can change it unless there's a board vote about Okay, let's stop with the crap and let's go to have some realistic conversation. Those on what's going out there and you keep on using the example of somebody who has 30 years experience inside of the safety industry.  So why does that not count? Okay, I do not have 30 years in the Marine Corps. 30 years in the fire service, 30 years and industry. I'm not talking about something that would benefit me. I'm great. There must If if we can say that the degree in history, the American musical and the degree in sociology, psychology or physics are identical, then there must be other things that are also again. Okay. And if one of the one of the tenants that the B. C. S P and the S S P stand behind is we want safety people to develop, we want organizations to develop innovative and realistic safety programs that are resilient and can constantly be improved.  So shouldn't our own processes meet? The same test shouldn't 100% 100% of the ship. Last year I went to the OSHA working group on eating indicators, and I was very pleased. Teoh here Several high ranking OSHA Uh uh. Supervisors, managers, directors, bites presidents whatever talking about the need for organizations to not treat their workers as if safety were just a punishment. Right? Boom, boom. That's golden right there now. So I raised a question right, because I'm a loud mouth. I said, We want the business owners and the business executives toe look at safety as a positive and proactive thing.  And yet we the safety industry, meaning OSHA, meaning the insurance agencies, we treat those same business owners and those same executives as everything about safety is only punishment. Why do we expect them to grasp this higher meaning if we can't find ways to utilize the higher meaning when dealing with? And I think that is the question right there, right? And because, honestly, there are a lot of people out there that are good people, that they have families. They have Children, they have puppies and kittens and they don't kick them or mutilate them.  Who honestly and truly believe that many of the rules and requirements that we give them are unfair. Okay, we need to address that way. Can't just go about saying more. Safety is better safety. We're gonna have more rules. We're gonna have more regulations, We're gonna have more requirements. Safety is better Safety. I don't care how many times you say the word safety in a day. I care how many times your workers here, the word safety in a day. Does that make sent That makes sense. And, Bill, I think we're gonna leave it at that.  Here's what I'm gonna offer to you. And, of course, you tell me if you can or not. I would love to have you come back and continue this conversation because I think that there's more that we can dive into. But for right now, if you don't mind, tell the listeners where they can find some or information about about you. Um and then you do reference. Of course you have the videos. I also did notice you're an author, but we don't get into that. And so that's gonna be some stuff that I want to cover as well understand?  Uh, yeah. So all my stuff is up on Lincoln. Nothing's behind a firewall. Uh, you know, you can read the dirt bloodbath, safety professional stories up there. You can You can watch Uncle Bill's safety minute videos and Uncle bills. Obviously. Zombie apocalypse minute videos. Okay. Well, Bill, I do appreciate you coming on to the show. Having me, I I apologize that your users wasted an hour now they didn't waste any time whatsoever. This is gonna be I'm gonna tell you. This one's gonna be what I say your whole gold there.  Well, this brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. As we have discussed on some of the other shows on safety FM. I would like to actually present this out there if Jennifer McNeely, the CEO for the American Society of Safety Professionals, or Diane Steagall, the president of the American Society of Safety Professionals. I would like to come onto the show. They're more than welcome to. We would give them as much time as they want on safety FM dot com, The radio station. This would give them the ability to interact live in an unedited format on safety FM dot com and safety FM dot Live way will present you this opportunity until May, the fifth of 2020.  Police bill free on reaching back out to us here at safety FM. If you would like to do so, don't worry listeners will be back with another episode of the J. Allen show Before too long. Goodbye for now. One small of the J. Allen. Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need. Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford slash safety of them Theo views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company.  Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only example. It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen