Safety FM with Jay Allen
Linda Martin, Ph.D
August 21, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show, (we know it's not a Safety FM Mini) Jay has a conversation with Linda Martin, Ph.D During their conversation Jay and Linda talk about the changes in the safety world, Linda's struggles and how she is a no holding back kind of person. She also talks about the Soteria Society, and how this will change the game of safety. Enjoy this episode on The Jay Allen Show
Today on The Jay Allen Show, (we know it's not a Safety FM Mini) Jay has a conversation with Linda Martin, Ph.D

During their conversation Jay and Linda talk about the changes in the safety world, Linda's struggles and how she is a no holding back kind of person. She also talks about the Soteria Society, and how this will change the game of safety.

Enjoy this episode on The Jay Allen Show

[00:00:00] spk_1: you're listening to Safety FM and men brought to you by safety Friday. So you already knew that this will know it's not gonna be a safety FM mini episode. I got a special treat for you today. Hang on. It begins in Orlando, Florida, and travel steadily to west, beaming across North America and planet on your head. World of Safety never stops. And now the Safety FM podcast and broadcast with Dr J. Allen. This episode of the broadcast and the podcast is brought to you by safety focused moments. They're consultants that want to help you get the safety culture you've been looking for. For more information, go to safety. Focus moment dot com Well, it's not all the time that we do it, but from time to time, we do change up the Friday episode, and this is a special occasion today. Today I have the privilege and the honor of having a conversation with Dr Linda Martin. Linda is an independent safety professional, a professor in a Lorax. She does not have a hard time speaking what's on her mind. So in other words, if you're easily offended, this may not be the episode for you just want to let you know ahead of time. But we do take some deep dives in some different aspects of what's going on in the world of safety. This is almost a combination between the J. Allen Show and the rated R safety show. Take a listen to the conversation between Dr Linda Martin and myself here on the J. Allen show. But normally, what I'd like to ask people starting off with the whole thing is why did you decide to get involved in safety?

[00:01:59] spk_0: So, um, you know, I've had a very career, Um, and I think people would be surprised by some of the stuff that I've done over the last 30 years. Um, I actually started out, um, after college, I had gotten a geology degree and there weren't any jobs in ah, geology, Um, in the oil business. Um, and I was schooled by, um, one of my friends who's, ah, veteran, um, in history. And he said, You know, that's because of the Iraq war and some of the things that were going on around that time so you couldn't get into the oil business. So I went into an environmental consulting and, um, environmental consulting at the time was just kind of coming kind of into its its own. And, um, so I did environmental consulting because I I had no other job options. Um, and I became interested in safety because I quickly realized that, um, people weren't really well versed in has whopper or exposure. And, um and I was being exposed to things. Um, So I became interested in that way. And as I became more of a project manager in that field became more interested in safety as, ah, as an occupation. Um, so, you know, I think that's kind of where it kind of took a turn. Was maybe five or 10 years in After I had sat on a drill rig for, um, several years and watched a lot of gooey gunky stuff come up out of the ground. Um, so that's kind of how I got involved in safety. Um, it took and take taking some very turns over the years. I don't know if you're interested in those.

[00:03:46] spk_1: Well, here's the funny part. I actually had found the geology thing online, and I was like, I was like, Is there a typo here? Because, of course, that is a definitely a huge switch between one to the other. Why did you want to go down? The geology face? Starting off. So what was the interest there?

[00:04:06] spk_0: Um, so I was one of those kids that really didn't know what I wanted to do in life. I knew I wanted to go to college, and, um, I was involved in sports. Bear with me here, and, um, I

[00:04:20] spk_1: won't hold it against you. Hold that against you. I went to

[00:04:24] spk_0: school for physical therapy, and, um, physical therapy was in the same Ah, in the same science building as geology. And I took my first anatomy course, and they opened up the cadavers for us to look at, um is part of one of those anatomy courses, and I thought, Oh, no. Yeah. I'm not I'm not doing this. And you know that I was It stunned me, because then I was like, What am I going to do with my life? And I was walking down, um, through the building, thinking to myself, What am I gonna do now? And I saw this display of rocks and I thought, Wait, Hey, I can get a degree in, like, Earth science, right? It can learn about nature and earth and how was built. And, um and it just kind of blossomed from there, and I and I and I actually still very much appreciate, um, the geology, But, um, I have, even though I have geology credentials, um, I've never really used them, and and so, you know, I've I've taken my career path many different ways. I've been a police officer. Um, I worked on an organic farm for a while. Um,

[00:05:38] spk_1: hold on your bill. You're blowing my mind. Several changes. Okay, so I mean, this is good. This is good stuff because I said sometimes sit back and go when I tell people that have changed majors five times. I kind of struggle when I first mentioned that, but this is good. At least I know there's somebody else out there like me now. You know, that has changed things, you know, that's actually go ahead.

[00:06:00] spk_0: I was just going to say that's a really good, um, Segway into, You know, when people are looking for what they should be doing in life, life's a journey, right? And, um, you know, to take that path right and and figure it out, even if it lasts six months or or whatever. Um, don't be Don't be hemmed in if you, for example, get a safety degree or geology degree, and then I think that that you have to do that for the rest of your life because that's just simply not

[00:06:28] spk_1: true. So you have to tell me about, you know, the police officer society, You know that that's going to definitely be a point of interest here.

[00:06:35] spk_0: Sure. So, um, I have been doing environmental consulting for for a very long time. Probably. Let me think. I was 34 years old, so I had been in the in the field, maybe 12 years or so. It sat on a drill rig. I had worked in the field. Um, I had done project management. I had gotten all the credentials I needed to, you know, stamp things and sit in the corner office. And, um, I never really liked what I was doing. Um, I I did like the protect the people thing, and I did like the protect the earth thing, but, um, nobody ever like to see the environmental consultant coming.

[00:07:13] spk_1: I know. I used to work for transportation companies. I entirely know what you mean there. Right?

[00:07:19] spk_0: So you know eso you'd show up on a site in and everybody's mad at you, right? That the people that are being, um you know, the pollution is getting to is they're mad at you. The person who's hired you is mad at you because, you know, even though they caused the problem, um, you're the one who's was costing the money. And so it was It was just a very tough, um, situation for me to be. And I'm very sensitive. Ah, toe other people's energies in. So, um, at the time I thought about being a police officer, it had always been something in the back of them. Of my mind. Um, my brother is ah, police officer. And I thought, you know, let me try this out. You know, I mean, I'm in a transition phase. I'm in a good space. Ah, Financially, um, I worked really hard to get shape. I actually got hired by the Kennebunk police department in Kennebunk, Maine, and, um was a police officer for several years. Um and it was it was a fantastic job. Um, you know, you get to work with people. Um, you get to Ah, if you do it right. As a police officer, you get Teoh solve problems. Um, you get to get into situations where you see things that you never thought you'd see in your life. And it was a great job. Um, for a while, um, it it ended for me. Ah, when I had to go to the police academy because I'm not really good with authority. And, um and I'm also really I have I have a great idea about police being, um they should be peace officers, and they should be helpers. And they should do all these things before they pull out. Um, force and all these other things. And I know I'm kind of digressing here.

[00:09:12] spk_1: Oh, no, I like where you're going, But

[00:09:15] spk_0: But we you know, when? When I got to the police academy, they were teaching all kinds of tactics, Um, to these young people, Um and I say young people because I was 34 at the time, and so they were a lot younger than me. There were 2122 year old young men and women, um uh, to always be on their guard and almost be, um, somewhat proactive instead of looking for a way to solve a problem in a peaceful manner. And And that's not to say that all the cops out there are that way. Um, but this particular police academy was with that's what they were doing and had a problem with it. And, um, I brought it up and ended up not being in the police academy in

[00:09:58] spk_1: divorce. Do I? Do I ask the question, Was it a choice or how does that under of working? It's so I think, the illusion of choice. Do we go with the illusion? I don't know if I

[00:10:10] spk_0: want to tell everybody my life

[00:10:12] spk_1: story, but you're here. I ended up

[00:10:15] spk_0: telling the head of the Kadre to do something. Ah, to himself.

[00:10:22] spk_1: You can say it if you want to. I have no Can I say swear words on this? Absolutely.

[00:10:30] spk_0: The head of the Conrad Ittefaq himself. Um And then I said my piece and I was ushered out

[00:10:40] spk_1: almost immediately. He said it was time to go. It was

[00:10:43] spk_0: pretty immediate. It was Bernie media. In fact, it was It was one of the, um ah times in the night when they would get you up at you know, 2 a.m. You know, ring the bell, gets up a 2 a.m. And you have to have certain things on and they play all these little games. And you know what? 34 years old, you have some life experience and you know, they're going on and on and they're yelling, and it's 2 a.m. And you're standing there in your raincoat and with your flashlight, and you know, whatever else they told you to have if the bell rings and I just I just stepped out of line and I thought to myself, You know, I'm not doing this. This this is teaching me nothing, right? And I have a say here in in what I'm learning and what I feel like this. This experience is doing to, um, the minds of the people that their training And that's not to say the training is not right. It's It's to say the training was not right for me. So it was. It was an immediate ushering out because they

[00:11:49] spk_1: know how many weeks. Are you in this particular point?

[00:11:52] spk_0: Um, I think

[00:11:53] spk_1: I made

[00:11:53] spk_0: it a week Eight. Um, and it was an 18 week course. Eso So in Maine, you can, or at least when I was, You know, I mean, I'm 52 now, So it was a while ago. Um, at the time, you could be a police officer for certain amount of time with a 40 hour course and some fuel training before you actually went to the full time academy. And so, um, you know, had I been able to put up with that at 34 years old and gotten through the full 18 weeks? Um, I think it probably would have been a different path for me because I really, really did like working with the public. I really liked connecting with people on that level of I can I can help you, Um, whether it be a medical situation or, um, domestic disputes or, um, you know, any any litany of things that that happened? Um, but I really did like the police work. Um, but

[00:12:56] spk_1: it s so here's the interesting part here. You reference something earlier that, you know, it does affect you the feelings of others. To an extent, you have chosen a couple of interesting pass where you know your positions, that you might not be the part of the most popular person inside of the order. So let's talk about the police, the police thing, and going into safety does not make you, you know, highly popular when you when you normally walk into most places. So how did you How did the decision here of going? Okay, this is how I feel. Why am I going to do this? Where to an extent I worded this way. But you're always going to be the sore thumb, the person that sticks out because it might not blend in with everything else. So why the decision to go down there

[00:13:40] spk_0: to go down in safety path? Correct. Um, you know, I think safety is Is this I mean, obviously, we're all in the business of of trying to help people help themselves, right, um, to make good decisions, um, to think about, um, either the task of the job or their family or whatever motivates them, um, to make the right choices in the workplace. And, um, you know, there. There are many different ways to do that. I mean, from everything from the safety cop to the to the person who's the M path. Um, I think that I'm or of, ah, the empathetic person. Ah, when it comes to safety, I want to know why people do things. And I think that, um, you know, a lot of a lot of people have been burned. Um, a lot of workers have been burned by people who it's just like, do it this way and there's no discussion. And, you know, it's my way or the highway. And I know better because I have a degree of certification and experience or whatever it is. And, um, you know, I come from a blue collar family, and so I know that that doesn't work very well on a construction site. Um, works well on a construction site is you know, you have a lot of experience. Guys, um, tell me why you do things the way you dio And you know, I'm not here to tell you that I'm always right, because I'm not, um,

[00:15:16] spk_1: but your doctor, you're supposed to be running on everything you think you say That is incorrect.

[00:15:21] spk_0: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. There, tons of things that say that that I say that are incorrect. And people call me on that all the time. And you know what? Here's the thing. If you have the humility to say, um, you know what, You're right. But I think that goes a long way, right?

[00:15:40] spk_1: And I'm so glad that you bring that up because there is this perception with PhDs in particular, that if you say something, you automatically know that it's 100% correct word guard less of what you say. Because I had had conversation with other people that have Ph. D's. And they say it's so awkward that people think that I know everything and I don't I think, and I always love it when I get somebody on and they say, Yeah, I don't know everything you know, Is this okay to say that I was wrong?

[00:16:09] spk_0: It is okay to say that you're wrong And, um, you know, can I insert a pet peeve here when you know, as I've been doing research, um, to get that PhD finally, um, which, you know. I know you have your PhD in it. Ah, that moment that you get it, you're like, Is this really over? You know, is this pain? Is this pain that I put myself through? Is it really over? Um, what I realized in the process is that there's a lot of stuff out there, Um, especially in our field where, um if people say it enough, it becomes true. Um and, um, So

[00:16:54] spk_1: we could still go down Teoh

[00:16:58] spk_0: very much about, you know, people being experts. And, well, I'm not I'm not about them being experts, you know, that's fine. If they want to call themselves ones, but nobody's expert. And nobody's Theo the ah, thought leader. And you know, if you have to if you have to give yourself that moniker, um, you're probably not. And so, um, I see a lot of people publishing in different magazines. I'm not gonna mention which ones

[00:17:28] spk_1: you're so nice. So nice. I know that. You know that I was told that if when I got you on the Chew a controversial figure, So I'm kind of shocked that you said you're being nice. Well, so it's literally 60 minutes in, so we'll see how this guy trying

[00:17:43] spk_0: not to suit. I also want to save some stuff for your x rated show because I go. Answer rated. But so I see a lot of people publishing and let me be a little more specific. I see people publishing in magazines that are associated with, um, membership organizations. And

[00:18:07] spk_1: you're so nice. You're so days, You know that I have I don't have a hard time saying the letters, Okay? Letters, You know, they're not a fan of mine. They made that abundantly clear.

[00:18:17] spk_0: Okay, so we're talking about the same people.

[00:18:20] spk_1: I'm pretty sure.

[00:18:21] spk_0: Um, And, uh, while I like to read, um, People magazine. Okay, I take people magazine with a grain of salt. Right, Because most the time, it's not research like reading the National Enquirer. Right? But if people say it enough and you see it in enough magazines and, um, you know, people just keep hammering that that point home that they want to make and it may be a great idea. I am. You know, I'm not I'm not saying that some of this stuff is not a great idea, but but there's no research behind it, right? And so um, you know, show me the research. Great idea. Great. Right up. Great thoughts. But show me the research and I and I don't think, except for maybe the Campbell Institute and some a couple of the publications that are really, truly peer reviewed in the industry. Um truly peer reviewed. That's a little knock there, too. Um,

[00:19:24] spk_1: well, and that's that's something right there. And because that's the other thing is that some times people don't really take that deep dive into the peer review that they don't realize that sometimes there's other companies that are behind the quote unquote peer review right that are actually financing the whole thing. And I'm not saying that's the case with this particular organization, but sometimes people don't do enough research. They just go. Oh, it's peer reviewed by accident. It's good to move.

[00:19:49] spk_0: Yeah, yeah, I mean, so So that's kind of that's kind of what I'm getting at is, you know, there's there's peer review and then there's real peer review, and, um, you know, when we talk about things like that, we're talking about safety, science and and ah Campbell Institutes magazine and you know, a few of the other ones out there that when you are actually, um, putting together research for your PhD. Um, those are the things that you're using. Your not, um, for example. Citing professional safety.

[00:20:24] spk_1: I'm so smiling right now, but nobody could see that. Am I gonna

[00:20:29] spk_0: get in trouble for this?

[00:20:30] spk_1: Who were getting into trouble? But nobody nobody listens to this. I don't know how many people listen to this. J just a couple 1000. I don't really don't talk about numbers, but a be a guest now because it's not a beauty. You're more than welcome to be, believe me. So I always tell them. But we have a lot of space here, so

[00:20:57] spk_0: you try not to be controversial. I think I think I am. I think I think we're seeing um Then you can tell me if this is true or not. Um, you know, self perception is a little bit different. Um, how other people see you, but, um, I I think that people are seeing me is controversial because I'm different. Um, I think that I, um At least at this point in my career, um, honey badger. Ah, excuse my language, honey. Badger. Don't give a fuck. And, um, I'm you know, I'm an independent, right? And so I can actually have my opinions at this point. And, um whether they mean something to you or they bring to or not, Um, that's fine. And I'm trying to put stuff out there, you know, especially on lengthen that I really believe in. And, you know, and I believe in a in a unified profession, and I believe in all these things that I'm saying And I hope people see that, you know, what you see is I'm Lizzy Wig. What you see is what you get,

[00:22:07] spk_1: what I think that that's the way that it should be. And I think that, you know, some people money turn around and say, Yeah, you're controversial with some of the stuff that you that you think, And that's perfectly fine because you don't have to always be pro establishment. And I have to tell you I have a hard time with some of the organizations that are out there, and this is my opinion now putting words inside of your mouth. I just wanna make sure that I'm clear here. This is that it is kind of like the good old white guys that are sitting behind the scenes trying to set all this thing up to make sure how much revenue they can generate. And that's my opinion. Their marketing materials shows like they're actually going after a younger demographic, and that's not the case there. Normally going after these older people that you actually present money to them. There is a membership fee to be able to attend any of the events, and then you have to. If you want to become popular inside of the organization, there's a lot of butt kissing that ends up taking place. And this is by also my opinion. They actually put you know that valley behind those three letters that could put behind your name are different. The letter sequences, but the letter sequences on how you obtain it is very, very strange, because you have to go through kind of multiple sources on how how you can get it, where you can almost get it from two different sources, and it's kind of different each way on how you are able to obtain them. Eso very odd.

[00:23:16] spk_0: So say it's just your opinion again.

[00:23:19] spk_1: It's just my opinion. What did she just say now? Back to really safety talk on

[00:23:29] spk_0: safety FM. So So it's just my opinion, all of everything that I'm saying, Andrzej Ellen's show today is just my opinion, my personal opinion, no opinion of anybody else's. So I sort of agree with you, Um j Well, I don't sort off. I do agree with you. And I think, um, at at this point in my career, I'm finally finding that, um, you know, I served six years on the B. C s P board of directors, and so I have been inside of an establishment, and I do see, um, some of that happening in organizations. I'm not going to say, you know, uh, which ones. But But if you look at the demographic of who gets on the boards of any of these organizations, it's not the young people or the bright people or the right people, Um, for that matter. And, um, you know, I've had these conversations with multiple colleagues that, um, I have I have issues with calling, you know, people, young professionals, and having a young professional board because, you know, if I've got somebody who's 25 years old and is a hotshot and smart and has great ideas. Um, I would put them on a professional board any day of the week. Um ah. Seem with same with somebody without a degree. Um, if they have the experience or the, um, presence or, ah, great ideas. They belong on those boards to and the and I believe it that we've created. Um, at least across the industry, we've created a lot of hierarchy and, um, we exclude people for the old white guy board.

[00:25:25] spk_1: Oh, absolutely. I think it's funny, cause I kind of go back and take a look at a lot of this stuff. And I've had conversations with different people through these different stages of what we've been Dave able to do here. And I find amazing that if I have a background in firefighting, this does not apply for me to be able to move forward for qualification. There is certain limitations based on what my degree could be based on what I'm just like, they don't get it, and I have all I have a hard time understanding it. And I still think that it's interesting that there is such a such a value to the three letters that most people like Tiu obtain nowadays with things that are going line, it's crazy that I don't think that the industry I'm not talking about the safety industry I'm talking about just industry in general doesn't understand what some work that has to be put into that. So I was looking at an ad a few days ago looking for a safety professional with the CSP in a master's degree. A master's degree, $15 an hour.

[00:26:24] spk_0: Uh huh. So can you send me that? I get a job? Just

[00:26:31] spk_1: no, But seriously, I can send you the information. But it's crazy because it means to me that standard organizations don't understand what that brings interest inside of an organization. And ideas don't know if we're actually pitching it correctly or how it's actually being presented. But then I kind of look at the other side is why is this not being caught from the organizations that are making this available?

[00:26:54] spk_0: Well, I think I think, for in some respect I think they try to do that. I think they try to sell the value of, um, you know, belonging to an organisation. They try to sell the value of certification. Ah, you know, I think that's the you know, that's the disconnect. Um, if you have a solution for that Ah, I think you'll make a 1,000,000 bucks. Right? Um, because

[00:27:21] spk_1: why? They're making a lot more than all right. Sorry. Did I say that?

[00:27:24] spk_0: But I think I think there is a real disconnect with with, um you know, Hajto. Employers choose value. Like what? What is value, Right. And, um, you know, from my perspective, value could be any mix of things. Um, you know, I'm that person that has the, you know, I have the 30 years of experience, so I'm a PhD. I have all the letters, Um, I have degrees like crazy, and I'm getting more, so I'm I'm I'm the person That's the silver spoon of the industry. Right? And, um but but I will say that I have people with 30 years of experience in no degree and no letters behind their name, and they can run circles around me, and I believe that they have great value. I also have colleagues who are that I've been mentoring who are young people, and they haven't achieved certifications yet where they haven't joined something. Um, and they're very, very, very intelligent and could be very useful to an organization. But they can't get hired because, um, organizations don't know how to, um, select somebody that meshes with what they do or what they want to achieve. Does that make sense?

[00:28:48] spk_1: That makes sense. Of course. I'm gonna ask you that. Very strange question. Okay. What do you think that could be done? To result something like this? Because you remember, you've sat kind on the will, say the other side of the aisle just and so

[00:29:00] spk_0: I didn't want to the dark

[00:29:01] spk_1: side. Some people might say that this is the dark side. Now you never know, But think about it like, what can we do? As we'll see is an industry as safety professionals to be able to kind of move this kind of change that and believe me, I'm not saying that there's not value added with some of these, what some of these organizations are doing because I don't want to come across that way because that's not what I'm saying. But there's some things that are in place that don't make sense to me, Average Joe Consumer. So I just don't know how do we move forward? Because, yeah, they've been. Some of these organizations have been established for a while, and I think that they do bring some good elements. So I just want to make sure that that's very clear looking we do to improve,

[00:29:44] spk_0: I think what happens with some organizations and, you know, again, you can choose any one of them, Um, is that they get to a point where, um making money and innovating, um, becomes more important than the professionals that we're trying to serve. Which witch is which? Should be the primary thing, right? The money making should be the primary thing. It should be helping the people. And how do you do that? And, um, you know, I'm going to give a pitch for my my city area society. Right? Because that's that.

[00:30:18] spk_1: Of course, that

[00:30:20] spk_0: is, that is the impetus behind, um, this idea is that, um listen, I want to space for people where everybody has value and everybody can learn. And, you know, we're not gonna look down on you because you don't have letters. Um, there'll be people with letters in there. Um, we're not gonna look down on you if you don't have a degree, although will be people with degrees in there. And we're not gonna look down on you if you're a student or you don't have any experience. Um, the profession should be open to everybody. And, um, one of the things that I always say is that, you know, we hand pick in our profession, and again, this is just my opinion. I think some people are hand picked, um or, um, from the from the the, you know, the easy fishing spots. And they are, um, at a certain age, put into a young professionals board and elevate themselves when they're 50 or 60 years old to, um the boards and or positions of power in the organization. Right. And I'm very much

[00:31:32] spk_1: so love the to chuckle every time that you have something really good you want to see Oh, you know, I think

[00:31:38] spk_0: everybody's gonna de friend me on linked in

[00:31:40] spk_1: right after the way I knew that I should not do this one live okay about on the radio. If you need me to, I can always offer,

[00:31:53] spk_0: um so again. And I will say every single thing that I say on this problem is is my opinion, right? And in life is a journey. And so, um, I had to go through many things in order to to see, um, that the path is inclusion and not exclusion. And so, you know, that's kind of what I'm trying to do with the city area society. This is something that I'm doing out of the, you know, the goodness of my own heart. Um, do I know what direction it will take? I'm, you know, I'm looking for people to tell me, um, you know how to do it. What has value to them? Um, you know, I don't want it to cost a lot of money. That that's also very touchy subject with to me that, you know, memberships, cost money in letters, cost money and professional development costs money. And I'm a big fan of all of that. But I also think that when you're paying money, you should get value. And so, um, you know, I've got a website and paying for out of my own pocket and bunch of things that I'm paying for out of my own pocket. And I'm trying to create value and find value. Turn up value where, um, Where it exists, you know? And so, um, you know that that's one way I'm trying to get there is, you know, how do I create How do I create the disruption? And, um, you know, if if you want to call me a disrupter, I would be pleased. It's probably better than it's probably better than honey Badger. But, you know, I would like to disrupt what we're doing and offer a different path.

[00:33:40] spk_1: So let me ask because, you know, this is gonna come about. So then people are going to say we'll only do you want to actually disrupt because you're trying to do your own thing? Does this mean I have to have see use in a membership for this to be ableto work? If there is a new path that comes about because, you know there's gonna be 10,000 questions?

[00:33:56] spk_0: Yeah. And you know what? I'm trying to answer those questions. I mean, I'm not trying to be anything that exists out there, okay? I'm just trying. Teoh, give honor and and a place for people to feel like they're part of this profession. And it doesn't matter if you have a degree. It doesn't matter if you have the letters. It doesn't matter. No, I'm No, I'm not trying to create another certification. I'm not trying to create a membership purse per se. I'm trying to create a place of honor for people in our profession that they they they feel like they're part of something. And if there's a way that we can offer low budget, um, or even or even free professional development, you know, I mean, I think I'm working on some things that that I'm that may work for people to be able to get, see user hours in without paying a couple 100 bucks in order to maintain certifications. And so I think there's a path for that. I mean, I think there's a I have to find a way to fund it. Um, but, um, you know, I'm not trying to create another certification. I'm not trying to create another membership of trying to create a place where we all have the same goal, which is, you know, the absence of injury absent in the area and, um, absence of fatalities because that's our That's our goal, right? And so if you join in you where the pin or you, um, commit to mentoring somebody that you're doing it not to get them a certification, Although you you could do do mentoring for that, but really, to help them learn. Right, Um, because there's a lot of people that don't get a chance to learn because they weren't handpicked for that trajectory to be on a board of an organization organization. And I gotta be honest with you, I mean, and again, this is just my opinion. I lucked out, um, to get on the board of certified safety professionals When I did, um, I was nobody special. Um, I don't Oh, I don't even see myself as somebody special today. And, um, it just so happened. I feel like hopefully some people think I made a difference when I was there, and I served with integrity. Um, but, um, you know, that doesn't always happen that way. And I want people to feel like they they can make a difference in whatever space they are.

[00:36:36] spk_1: So I'm gonna ask a couple things here because I want to make sure that I have a clear understanding. When did you come up with the idea to come up with a society? Like roughly. When did you say Okay, this is what I want to move forward with.

[00:36:45] spk_0: Well, so So this was kind of germinating back when I was working before I came off the board. Um, I was, you know, thinking about this. I had had kicked around the idea of, you know, what would it be called? That kind of stuff. And, um, I actually was consulting and in doing some other things. And then, um, just so happened that ah, position came open with the board when I was coming off. I think people know that I was the chief learning officer there for five months. Um, didn't work out and ah, you know,

[00:37:26] spk_1: Oh, you know that you showed is grazed over that workout. Didn't

[00:37:32] spk_0: work out. And so, um, let's listen, Jay. Don't get me in trouble here.

[00:37:38] spk_1: I'm not getting your trouble. I'm just asking the questions. That's what that's what the audience wants,

[00:37:42] spk_0: since it didn't work out. And so you know that this is my way of kind of going back to the roots of what I believe. And, um, you know, I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I really am not I I believe in certification, and I believe in obviously believe in education, because I I am in instructor at several schools. Actually, just recently, I took a job with Capital Tech University where I got my PhD, um, to be their safety programs chair. So I believe in education, right? Congratulate. Thank you. And A And I also believe in experience, right. But but But most of all, I believe that there's no right or wrong way to move through a career. And, um, that one does not supercede the other when it comes to being a good professional or being good at what you dio.

[00:38:40] spk_1: So what would you say to the people that buying turn around? You're only doing this based off of, and it actually get back to the people that were you left.

[00:38:46] spk_0: Ha ha. You know,

[00:38:48] spk_1: you know, you know that somebody's out there thinking that always. You know,

[00:38:53] spk_0: I listen I've always done my own thing, ok? And, um, spoken my mind and, um tried to live with integrity and ethics, and I would hope that people don't think that that's my motives. Um, you know, again, I'm not trying to make money. I'm not trying to take money from anybody else. It's just it's a labor of love and, you know, quite frankly, um, after I was no longer with B c s P, I had a period of time where a lot of time to think about what's important. And, um, you know, that happened to be on my patio with with a couple of beers. But, um, you know what? Whether whether you take it at face value or not, Um, what you see is what you get in a care an awful lot about our profession. I care an awful lot about people, and I care Karen off a lot about the workers that were trying to protect. And I know that sounds trite, but, um, I do care, and I and I, I'm the I'm the law racks, right? I'm the law rex of the safety profession. I care and whole awful lot about what we're doing. And I care an awful lot about people who have potential, um, and don't have a path

[00:40:16] spk_1: while you so this way he referenced universal at the same time. There the Lorax. I love it. You should searching. You showed me that trigger turned everything orange. Now that you have just to make a reference that I see the marketing all over,

[00:40:29] spk_0: I'm gonna put the lower except as my picture. Arlington. Um, you know, I mean in. And maybe that's, you know, maybe I'll find that that's not the way that people will come out after I talked to you, and they'll say, Oh, she's full of shit. Or, you know, there's always gonna be somebody that says I'm full of shit, But, um, you know, I loved I loved my time at B. C s B. I think it's a great organization. I think they do good things. Um, I think, um, SSP does good things. I think an A C does some amazing things. Um, but this this is different. This is about, um, just a place for people the land and be valued.

[00:41:11] spk_1: So if somebody wants to know more information about the society working the go get some more information.

[00:41:15] spk_0: So I set up a group on Lincoln. Um, I probably shouldn't have set that up first. But, you know, I just kind of was I just kind of was just like, Well, are people interested in this kind of thing? Like, are they Are they interested in, um, not being classified and in this way And, you know, again, the the foundation is Listen, if

[00:41:40] spk_1: you want

[00:41:40] spk_0: to get a certification to go do it right, if you want a degree, go do it. And if you want experience, go do it and And I stand ready to help you find a way right to help you find a path or at least cheer you on. Right. And what I found is, um, I'm getting a lot of feedback from people in the industry who have all these things or none of these things. And they are also standing at the ready to help others. And that is an amazing feeling. You know, um, I just wanted to mention a couple of things that have come up. I know you asked me for how to get in touch, but let me just met, mentioned, you know, I had somebody come up to me in the last week and ah, say, you know wow. I wish you were a not for profit because I have a full scholarship for an M B A from a regionally accredited school. And I'd like to be able to, you know, have you, um, administrate. And you know, I'm not a nonprofit yet. I don't even know what I am right now. I mean, I'm just trying to gather people together and see what people want. Um, but that kind of support I've had companies come up to me and say, I think I think what you're doing is great. And they support everything else. They support a SSP. They support be CSP. They support NSC, but they still want to support this kind of, um, idea to right, which is to me is amazing. And so, um, I think there's a space for it. Um, So there's a So let me get back to your question, because

[00:43:24] spk_1: I know I like what you're doing here because you're really kind of laying down the groundwork of, you know, here's what's going on, and let's just kind of to call it for what it is. It's kind of like that grass roots aspect. It's kind of like building it and seeing where it goes. It's not this plan. Determination of Hey, this is where it's going. Toe end. This is where the journey is going to g o it's Yeah, you know, destination

[00:43:47] spk_0: J j. And I with the stuff that I dio I make enough money for my family too to live. And, you know, the teaching that I do in the jobs that I have in the consulting. And, you know, I'm always open toe other opportunities to, um So I'm not looking to make a 1,000,000 bucks. I'm not looking to make ah, you know, something that puts other people out of business. I'm looking for Ah, Away too. Be a helper. Right, Teoh, take those people that always feel like, Wow, I don't have the letters or none of the degree or don't have the experience and people. People don't take me seriously, and I'll never you know I'll never be able to have a voice and to give them a voice. Okay. And, um so to get back to your question that the group is on Ah, Lincoln, the city area society, and you can invite yourself, um, you also can connect with me. They're unlinked and if you want accepting connections. Also accepting, You know what about this, You know, Give me. Give me a message. Um, and then I also have a website up that I've been working on. Um, the you are Ellis W W W ah, city area society dot com. Um, And again, I'm looking for people to, you know, give me feedback. I'm certainly I'm working on this on my own on my my free time and putting my own money into this. Um, just because I believe in it.

[00:45:25] spk_1: Okay, hold on. You said free time. You you don't have a lot of that. I don't. I knew this. I know how long I had to get you after you to get this. That happened today. So? So I do have another sense since

[00:45:40] spk_0: May and us can. You can come that back since May have had a lot of extra free time. I do do a lot of teaching, and so you know that that keeps me busy. But I have five and seven year olds to girls, and so I've been spending a lot of time with them in the afternoon. Um, while they swim in our $25 Christmas tree pool, and, um, I drink beer on the patio. When I think of things to dio, um, I e am coming out with I'm actually signing the contracts this week and probably next week for three books with Wiley Publishing.

[00:46:18] spk_1: Woohoo congratulate! You

[00:46:19] spk_0: know, I'm really excited about it. I've actually partnered with a few of my colleagues on, um, two of them, and I'm gonna write one of them on my own. Ah, I can tell you, if you're interested, I can tell you what the books will kind of be,

[00:46:35] spk_1: You know, that that's what exactly I was.

[00:46:38] spk_0: Um, we're gonna have to come. I'm gonna have to come on for another session and I want to be on the X rated version. I think that's really kind of interesting

[00:46:47] spk_1: What you tell me, what I tell people with that other show is that they can host it. So we would just give you the reins and you just

[00:46:54] spk_0: swear for, like, 45 minutes or something,

[00:46:56] spk_1: that if that's what you want to dio were also unlinked did on that show currently. So yeah, about

[00:47:02] spk_0: that. Um So what was that? So so the three books. One is, um, one is basically a practical field manual for, um, safety professionals. I think that there's a gap when we teach young people. You know, in any professional for that matter that you know, like it coming back to school. And they're getting their safety degree and they get out in the field and they go, Oh, um, you know, the instructor said confined space are always like this, right? And then you get a confined space, and it's really not, um, like that. And so we're going to write a pretty lengthy field manual. Um, Dr John Mulroy, Um, who's the OSHA consultation? Pho sort of consultation Director. Um, and a colleague of mine. We're gonna write that together, and it's basically going to be geared towards kind of ah, cookbook of Now what? I do What? Um, and certainly you can't put everything in. And now what do you want now? What you gonna do? Book? Um, but we're gonna we're gonna do. We're gonna try. You

[00:48:13] spk_1: already. See, there's an app being built around this for the quick answers of What do I do next? Boom, boom.

[00:48:20] spk_0: Yeah. Yeah. And you know I'm a fan of phone A friend. Right. Um, when I was consulting and I told this story a lot that, um I went out on my own and, ah, you know, when you're on your own, the paycheck is you. And so when the phone rings, you pick up the phone and somebody goes, can you write and then blah, blah, blah. And the answer is always Yes, right. The answer's yes. Yes, I can do that. Um, I have I have something going on right now, but let me call you back to discuss that, and you hang up the phone, you go. How the hell am I going to do that right? Or who I know that can guide me, um, to the right answer right? Or can't who has done and can help me do it right. Um and that's a very important skill. Um, so that's kind of it. It's kind of a phone, a friend, but in a book form. And, you know, hopefully city area will serve as the phone. A friend. Ah, area where people can get something without paying. Ah, big fee. But we'll see how that kind of shakes out um, the second book I'm writing with, Ah, friend of mine. Um, that's 30 30 years. He's been my friend. He's a p e. And it's gonna be a book about how to, um, get safety, uh, people to be able to, um, participate in design reviews in a meaningful way. Because I think a lot of times engineers and designers and architects, um, you know, when we talk about 30 60 90 design reviews and prevention through design, Um, they're all speaking a different language than we are, um, as safety professionals. And so when we come in on design reviews, um, we're thinking of kind of obvious things, and they are thinking nitty gritty. Ah, you know what kind of rebar am I gonna put here? You know, homey, how does this room look? Are, um and so Ah, actually, my friend Glenn came up with this idea. Why don't we? Why don't we kind of lay it out? How engineers think right, so that safety professionals can can come in and not say at the 30% design review. I think those stairs should be yellow. Right, because stairs should be yellow is 90%. It's not 30% right. 30% is I really think you need to put a parapet wall in there. 30% is, you know, um, what are you doing with electrical? Um, that kind of stuff. And so So that's kind of the gist of the second book. And then the third book, Um, I said I'm a lifelong learner. Um, at capital tech, there's a, uh, tuition remission for additional ah, degrees. And so I'm taking their master's degree in construction, cybersecurity and, um, and kind of just general cybersecurity. And I'm going to write a short manual on construction. Cybersecurity. Very interesting for the next year. So So I'm I

[00:51:46] spk_1: don't have time for all three books.

[00:51:48] spk_0: Well, the contracts are supposed to be coming in this week and probably not even supposed to be talking about, Um,

[00:51:54] spk_1: I'll believe this system until, like,

[00:51:57] spk_0: next week here. So, um, you know, So I'll be working on those three books, two of them with other people in and one by myself. Um, I'm sharing the Department of Capital Tack. Ah, which has a construction safety, bachelor's and master's online, and then also working with dissertation students. Um, on their PhD and occupational health and safety. And so

[00:52:25] spk_1: Oh, the dissertation days. Oh, I'm telling you want so one of the

[00:52:29] spk_0: things that I get great pleasure out of. And you mean when you're on the other side of it, it's painful, right?

[00:52:37] spk_1: Of course, when you're

[00:52:38] spk_0: when you're in the coaching part of it, it's really very fulfilling. And, um, I get to get my hands in a lot of the research, um, that I normally wouldn't. Right. Um, I have 12 dissertation students right now, and they're working on, you know, everything from ergonomics and the hemp and industry Teoh CBD gummy effects, too. Um well,

[00:53:07] spk_1: I see a theme here, so

[00:53:09] spk_0: yeah, kind of welding exposures. Um, you know, fatigue, psychological safety. And, you know, it kind of runs the gamut, and I get to get my hands in all of it, but I actually don't have to do the the heavy, heavy duty lifting in. Um, but there are a lot of people out there that that are so excited to be doing that research, and I'm happy to help.

[00:53:36] spk_1: That's good. That's good. That's good to hear that they're excited about doing his idea that during that time of life. It is very frustrating in regard to the things that were happening, at least for me at that particular point. Well, then I have to tell you, we're gonna have to do this again. There's just no way that I think this is gonna be a one and done. Definitely It could not be this long A period of time.

[00:53:54] spk_0: Oh, no. Oh, no. And it's everybody gonna hate me At the end of

[00:53:58] spk_1: that I e Wait, let me rephrase that. There are some people that are not going to love you after this, but there's gonna be some people that are really going to love you. So it's kind of a mixed bag. This is the way that it will take

[00:54:09] spk_0: the people who are gonna love me. I mean, I'm I'm gonna tell you right now, jm I'm a good person. What you see is what you get. Um I'm empathetic, Teoh. Everybody in our industry and I wanna I wanna make it a better place. Um, I'm on the end of my career. I know that sounds silly in my fifties, but, um, you know whoever and give a leg up to at this point in my life. Um, God damn it, I'm gonna do it.

[00:54:34] spk_1: Well, I have to tell you, I have quite a few friends that are in their fifties that they're telling with their that their, you know, their semi retired. It done. I think they work mawr. Now that they've been saying that seven retired since then. So I'll take that with a grain of salt.

[00:54:47] spk_0: Right? Well, I have little kids, so I mean, I'm probably gonna be working.

[00:54:50] spk_1: Film, like 80 anyways will be wiping tables at McDonald's with a mask on. Well, this brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. Definitely not our traditional safety FM. Many I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Dr Linda Martin. Firm or information about the city area Society. Go to city area society dot com. It will also be listed in the links. By the way, are you wondering why the heavy metal music? It's the kind of music that Dr Linda Martin likes. Anyways, I have been your safety manager and host Jay Allen and until next time, be safe once more. The J. Allen show home the views and opinions expressed on this

[00:55:46] spk_0: podcast or those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only example. It's not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available, as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in

[00:56:12] spk_1: a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means

[00:56:16] spk_0: mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.