Safety FM with Jay Allen
Judy Agnew, Ph.D.
January 28, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with world-renowned author, Judy Agnew, Ph.D. They talk about her career and how Judy landed her dream job working with Aubrey Daniels International. Enjoy this episode of The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM.
This show is brought to you by safety Eyes streaming on safety FM dot life Hello and welcome to the J. Allen Show. We are broadcasting live from Orlando, Florida This is your host, Jay Allen, on this episode. Like all episodes, we're gonna talk about everything because we just don't focus on one subject. We focus on a little bit of everything that's going on around the world. I do appreciate the time that you give me on a weekly basis for us to have these basic discussions about what's going on in the world here today.  We're going to have a conversation about things in the world of safety as we have discussed it, the previous episodes. From time to time, we will have different discussions. But today is a discussion about safety. Now, I'll tell you, I know that I tend to focus a little bit on the past and some of the things that we had going on before. But I'll tell you that with the safety FM flagship show, I don't think we could have been able to pull this interview off. So let me tell you what we have going on today.  Today we have an interview with Judy Agnew. She is recognizes, thought Leader in the field of safety, Leadership, Safety, culture in behavioral safety. As a senior vice president of safety solutions at Aubrey Daniels International, Judy helps organizations create evidence based strategies that use positive, practical approaches to improve safety performance, ensuring long term sustainability and organizations that are safe by design. The complexity of today's work environment require scientific approach to the human performance Comm. Opponent of safety. Applying her PhD in psychology In more than 25 years of expert consulting, Judy helps clients analyze the impact of organizational systems such as work procedures, management practices, performance metrics and incentives.  She then helps leaders of just systems and practices to enable and encourage safe work. Judy understands what it takes to ensure that everyone from the board room to the front line engages in Proactiv behaviors required to create in sustain ah culture of safety. Judy has worked in a priority of industries including transportation, oil and gas, mining, forest products, utility, food and non food manufacturing, distribution and retail. Her workers spend and diverse employee population in organizational issues, including organizational culture, change, safety leadership, effectiveness, employee engagement and ensuring consistency of lifesaving behaviors.  In addition to industry and corporate events, Judy has presented at major safety conferences, including the American Society of Safety Engineers, National Safety Council and Behavioral Safety. Now she has frequently interviewed for national in trade publications and is the author of three highly regarded safety books. Safety by Accident. Take the Luck out of Safety leadership practices that build a sustainable safety culture, with Aubrey Daniels removing obstacles to safety with Gil Snyder in a supervisor's Guide to Safety Leadership. Now I'll tell you, in the past, I don't think we would have been able to get this interview, and I'm get it.  Say that it's mostly base that we talk about human and organizational performance, and there's nothing wrong with human organizational performance. But if you're familiar with Aubrey Daniels, you are aware that most people are familiar with them. Based on behavioral safety. Today, I would like to welcome Judy Agnew to the show. Your company reached out to me, so I was going to surprise, especially for the kind of show that I normally do about my subject. Better show what was what was the point of interest. Well, um, you know, we're always looking for ways to get our message out to people, and we know a lot of the folks that you've had on your show, and I guess we just sort of felt like we would love to have the chance to kind of share our message and join the conversation Get because I always think it's interesting because a lot of people are little hesitant and first, especially if they're not part of the part of the house of where most of my speakers come from.  So the way that I look at it is I think, that there's always a good conversation that could be had from any side of the house, especially when we're all trying to make sure that people make it home safe. Exactly. Exactly. And and you know, I'm really a believer that there's something to be learned from every approach to safety, and I think that the behavioral approach, unfortunately, he's gotten a bit of a bad rap in many cases, and, uh, so I always look forward to the opportunity to kind of, ah, share our perspective and talk about how we can see everything working together to improve safety.  Well, how we'd like to ask the question starting off was, how does everything start for you were How did you get involved with safety? Why did you decide to get him some bald with safety is normally the best question to ask. Yeah, well, it wasn't a decision per se for me. Um, you know, So I started. I have, ah, PhD in behavioral psychology, and so my passion was always just helping people change behavior in whatever format in whatever venue. Um, And when I joined a ti, I I started working not in safety and and just to give some history on 80 I, um our work we've been around for 40 years.  I haven't been there for all 40 but I've been there for 28 years. But early on of the consultants would just go into an organization and say, What do you want to improve? And if it was productivity, they'd work on productivity. If it waas safety, they'd work on safety. So we have been doing safety work sort of all along, not not really a specialized product, but we've been doing it. So when I joined 80 I There were some safety work going on, but I I wasn't involved in it. For whatever reason, I just started.  My very first project was a quality project, so I did a lot of that. I did a lot of of customer service kind of work. Um, And then I was just invited by a colleague to work with her on behavior a safe to project in a mine. And I was sort of hesitant. I don't know. I don't know what the safety stuff, and, um, she said, you know, I know it's not sexy. I know. You know, safety doesn't sound very interesting, but I guarantee if you try it out, you're gonna like it.  And so sure enough, I did. I mean, I I loved what I loved most is working with the frontline population because most of my other work was with supervisors and managers, and that was fine. But, um, I really love working with her from frontline population and, um, really empowering them in more ways than just around safety. Ah, it was just so rewarding to see people who had so much to offer and they knew they had too much to offer, but they really weren't being given a chance.  And so that really got me hooked. And so I continued for a few years doing some work outside of safety. But then, pretty quickly, I specialized in I've been doing really nothing but safety for many, many years. So does 80. I originally reach out to you already. Are you going after age after 80 I And then the other question becomes a right away. To how do you go from a behavioral psychologist? What you still are and decided to go into the consulting world. Oh, well, that that was really because when I started college, I was interested in business.  And so my first year, I was taking business courses and, ah, accounting was one. And I thought, Okay, this is business. No, thanks. And so I sort of took a year off, actually, because I just I just wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And when I went back to university, I took a variety of classes and a behavioral psychology class was one of them. And I just thought, This is it. This is what I love. This is, you know, just just sounded really interesting to me.  And so being able to combine my interest in business with behavioral psychology is what really led me to. And I was always as a graduate student. That was really what I wanted to dio to use what I knew about behavior to work in a business setting. And so 80 I at the time was really one of the only behavioral consulting firms out there. And I read a lot of Aubrey Daniels books and, you know, it was really my dream job on. And then it happened to meet Aubrey at a conference and, you know, had an opportunity.  Actually, Thio help him with a book chapter that he was writing when I was a graduate student, and so it kind of went from there. Jay Allen show. Have you learned about a human and organizational performance? And you wanted more, Or how is your chance? Fisher Improvement Technologies is conducting an advanced H. O. P. Practitioner workshop. Now is your opportunity to learn these advanced hop techniques in this two day workshop that is designed to give leaders the ability to understand and manage integrations of advanced air. A reduction in organizations also noon is Vera.  Participants are provided with multiple experiential learning opportunities to ensure they could use the information in their day to day interaction, firm or information, Go to arrow hp dot com. That is e r o hp dot com and click on the link that says Open enrollment and we're back with Judy Agnew from Aubrey Daniels International. Oh, pretty. That's pretty interesting. So all this in your dream job lands in front of you. So how does the past heart for you? How does it How does it go where you go from being a person that's helping to all of a sudden?  Now you're at a T I Yeah. So well, and I know it. I know I'm asking questions from a long time ago, but I just find the storm so interesting. Yeah, well, um, you know, of course, I was interested in working with Aubrey. So, you know, I made that clear, and then it really like many things. Timing is everything. When I was coming out of graduate school, they were looking for some people. They had a really large quality project that they were doing, and they were in a position to be able to hire some folks.  And, um, you know, who knows why they picked me up? You know, sometimes I look back and think, I'm not sure I would hire me just because I was young, you know, inexperienced. But But they took a chance. And ah, And so here I am, 28 years later. I know, but you are now. Well, I don't know how long it's been, but you are the vice president of safety solution. So windy. Where do you start off? And how does this actually transition? How does it go far along.  I know that she started off with point in the story of how it went, but would you start off as they are? You're consulting, walking in the door. S so so. Yes. I was consultant, of course. Started off kind of it in more junior position. But as years went by, I just a whole lot of consulting work, sort of boots on the ground, going into clients, doing assessments, doing training, follow up, consulting, support, coaching on. I did that for many, many years. I mean, that just had, you know, a series of clients that I would work with Um And then as time went on and I got more more experience, um, I moved into more of managing projects.  We're on our bigger projects. And then I started, much to my own surprise selling business, which is not something I ever thought I would do. But, you know, turns out, when you're passionate about something, it's you make a good salesperson because it's not. You know, I used to think it would be like selling used cars, but really, I believe so strongly that a behavioral approach is helpful and really makes a big difference. So it's easy for me to talk to people about how it might help with their organization.  Um, And then I started writing and writing was, You know, you can't You can't get through graduate school without doing a lot of writing. So it was something I did. But, um, again finding just something I'm so passionate about, it became easier to write about it as well. And so, um, just, you know, gradually started writing Maur and in 2010 Aubrey Daniels on and I wrote the book safe by accident, and that really was a turning point for me in the sense that it was, Ah, book that really captured a lot of people's attention.  Ah, they were interested in having us talk about it. And so I got a lot of invitations to to give keynotes and things like that. And so that really changed the trajectory of my career, and I started doing more of that kind of stuff more. We're speaking more writing, um, that kind of thing. So it's been It's been a fun career, so let's go to do that. Let's go through the belief system that you have with the behavior based safety side of the house and how you actually see the approach that safety ship it looked at because I think that sometimes when people started taking a listen to the different variations are from safety that we will don't take a look at everything that's out there.  They heard of wine. Stick to that particular one, and they don't want to look at anything else. So could you know people some of some of the things that that you teach in that area that you actually bring into organization? Yeah, I'm glad you asked that, because I think, um, behavior based safety has has done a whole lot for safety, as I think most people will acknowledge. But because it became so popular Ah, there were a lot of people who sort of came out of the woodwork saying they did behavior based safety when they really didn't know too much about the science of behavior.  And so unfortunately, there were many sort of sub par Mabel programs out there. And so that led Thio, you know, not very effective programs off lead to people calling it a blame. The worker process, which is just drives me crazy because it is so not They blamed the worker. It is, in fact, the opposite of that S O s. Oh, I'm glad to have the opportunity to kind of talk about that, and and I find today so many people will say, Oh, we don't want that behavior stuff.  And so the word behavior has almost become this taboo thing that you shouldn't talk about because people have a bad taste in their mouth. Um, you know, what I would like to tell people is there's a science behind what was behavior based safety. What is behavior based safety? There are many bad programs out there. That doesn't mean you should reject anything with the word behavior in it. You know that? That only does. It doesn't. It's such a shame. Um, you know, the bottom line is everything we accomplished.  And safety is accomplished through someone's behavior. Whether that's senior leaders making decisions to fund something, whether it's an engineer making a decision in terms of howto howto build equipment in such a way that it's safer or all the way down to, of course, front line supervisors and frontline employees. So we all have to engage in the right behaviors if we're gonna create the safest possible workplace. And so to better understand behavior is just to better create a safer workplace. If we can understand, what are the things that influence a frontline supervisor to spend more time out in the field interacting with people, asking questions, Ah, helping as opposed to just being a safety cough.  If we can understand that, then we can create conditions where supervisors will do more of that, and that's gonna help safety. If we can understand why senior leaders make the decisions, they dio why they cling to, for example, lagging indicators and therefore dr kind of a reactive approach. If we can understand that, then we can begin to change it on. That's gonna impact safety. So, you know, the behavioral approach is really just about understanding behavior in any circumstance, anybody's behavior and then being able to make adjustments to improve that behavior.  So where did you start seeing where people started looking at this as a bad word being related to behavior? Because I see so many different concepts of safety. But I'm always have always been trying to trigger on when, exactly it occurred that people started looking at it from a different light where they started saying, Well, this is not for me. Yeah, you have, like, a timeline or a time frame or something that was occurring at the time when the user to notice. Well, you know, there was.  There was always resistance from the very beginning from some unions, and they just decided that behavior based safety was about blaming the worker. Ah, because it focused on changing worker behavior. Those were not the same things at all, but they just really believed it. Woz and they, you know, in all good intent, were trying to protect there folks from something they thought was not helpful. So there was always that kind of element there, but I think it really it was really after probably 10 15 years of favor based safety, where again there were there were people that were, you know, marketing themselves as behavioral experts that, um, we're not at all, Um, and by the way, the the behavioral community people who are trained in behavior analysis, it's a fairly small community, you know?  I know most of them, you know, that s o so you know, you see these people and go, You know, I don't know who that is, but I know they're not trained in behavior analysis. Um and that doesn't mean they wouldn't necessarily do good work, but they didn't have the scientific foundation. And so a lot of people thought, Oh, this is just about getting people to do observations on each other and getting people to do feedback. Well, it's a lot more complicated than that. It's yes, it's partly that, but it's about understanding behavior in context.  It's about looking at what are the things that are influencing behaviour and changing those things Not just giving somewhat feedback. So when people took a kind of superficial, almost like a formulaic approach to be here of a safety, that's when things started going south. We're you know, after a while, of course, it wasn't having an impact. In some cases, people thought it was the only thing they need to be needed to do. And so they apparently I never saw this myself. But maybe stop doing some of the other things that were doing around has a recognition in those kinds of things.  Um And then you know that that then, of course, things didn't go well. And so people started saying, this behavior stuff doesn't work. Um, you and I always say it's like anything else. Nothing works if you don't use it properly. If you really understand behavior scientifically, you're going to make it work because you're going to make adjustments to what you're doing based on what the data are telling you. And if it's not working than you need to change what you're doing because you're you're not. You're not making the right adjustments to make behave the safety even more likely.  Hi, everybody. Todd Conklin. I know lots. You get your information while you drive down the road or sit on planes or sit in meetings and look interested. And now you should know that three of my books are available for your listening pleasure on Audible. With the help of J. Allen and Safety FM, we've produced three the books Workplace Fatalities, The Five Principles of Human Performance and my very first book, Simple Revolutionary Acts. And they're available now where you get audio books and we're back with Judy Agnew from Aubrey Daniels International.  Let's talk about that for a moment because I think that that's kind of a focal point there. Because if you're saying that people are sharing toe, lose the way that they focus on things and then they're not getting correct data because, let's say, for instance, they're doing a root cause analysis if they're doing a job observation, if they're not doing it to the way that it should be laid out. Of course, the data that's going to come back is going to be in exactly. So when you start seeing a lot of this occur, what can you do to help organizations to kit?  I guess we'll say to get back on the correct path. Of course I have some more questions, but I want to hear your concept on that bird. Yeah, well, and that's a That's a good question because there's a lot of the lot of really great processes that I think organizations put in place that if people use them properly the way they're intended, it really would make a difference. Um, what we do is we say Okay, if you're not getting the l comes you want from whatever it ISS incident investigations near Miss reporting is another great example.  If you feel like people are just going through the motions, they're just pencil whipping. You know, the job safety analysis that they're doing, Then you gotta look at, well, what happens to people. How are we setting them to do it? Are we giving them the time to do it? Do they have the training, all those kinds of things, But then are what happens to them when they do it. If it's just a bunch of paperwork that they do and it goes into a black hole and they don't see any positive impact as a result of doing it, then you know they're likely to stop doing it.  They're gonna just quickly pencil whip it so that they can get back to the real work. And so a big part of what we do is say, you know, we've got to make this stuff meaningful for people we have tohave conversations with, um, about what they've done, You know, let's say someone does pre task risk assessment and they do a thorough job of it. If someone's there saying, Tell me about this, tell me what you did. And then what adjustments are you making? Based on having taken time to do this?  Well, you're now making it more like that person is going to do one in the future because you're starting to have a conversation. You're helping them See? You know what? I did make some changes to what I did because I took the time to do that analysis thoroughly, as opposed to just Did you do it? Did you not do a check the box? You don't no follow up. No talk about why are we doing this in the first place? And is it having an impact? And if you are as a supervisor, are talking to somebody about doing pretest risk assessments.  And every time you talk to them, they say, Yeah, now I did it, but I didn't change anything, you know? It didn't help me. Okay, well, let's talk about that that maybe maybe we've got to change our process. Maybe there's something different we need to be doing, but to just let people keep on doing things that they don't see value in that they don't see impact of then, you know, we shouldn't be surprised when people pencil with. Well, that's a point that I would love for you to drive home piece.  I think that sometimes that's some of the miscommunication that's out there. People believe that if they actually do a assessment, if they're doing a job observation once they're actually done and they actually cram the file into a drawer all this, then they believe that that change is going to work. It's also not gonna make them safer. It's not gonna do anything if you don't take the data and go back and use it exactly. And that's by the way. One of the things that happen to a lot of beer based safety programs were people were doing observations, they'd enter them into a computer and not doing anything with.  Um, well, why would I keep doing observations If I never see that anything changes, You know, a good behavior of a safety program is one where when I go out when I take the time is a front line employees to go out and do observations that I then see data that says, You know what? We're doing this behavior more frequently the right way or we have had some good conversations and we're changing this process as a result off those observations. So anything that shows me that my doing observations has made some sort of impact, it's improved something.  I'm gonna keep doing it. But if I just turn these forms in and they go into a black hole and I never see any data and never see anything change, then it just becomes about a quota on paperwork and it's meaningless and you know people don't want to do it. But that can happen with anything it can happen with, you know, pretest checklists any anything you know, the people we do, and safety can can fall victim to the same problem. One of the things that I love about the H O. P movement is it's really brought, said Light.  Fact that we've got to let people talk about what they're doing, what's working, what's not working. Um, because the more we do that the more engaged people are gonna get, the more they're gonna feel reinforced by participating in safety activities because they're going to see change. And that's what it's about. I'm almost thinking that she must have exactly No, you must have the script of what I'm going to ask you. That is exactly what I was funny now, and I want to ask you about that. Because, of course, you're hearing a lot lately about safety differently or human organization performance.  However you wanna work, you know the key phrase, the key phrase that's going on right now, even though a lot of people are calling it new view of safety. Even though I had what I can discover or have been able to discover, it's been around for about 27 ourselves. I don't know how that's new, but somebody it is. What is your opinion on that? And I'm just asking for an opinion and then I Then I want to talk to you little bit about more, a little bit, about the philosophy of what you hear about.  Yeah, well, I like a lot of the things that I hear about it. I mean, in fact, when Aubrey and I wrote safe by accident, I was reading just culture and I was looking in and I just thought, Oh, this is great. It fits perfectly with the behavioral approach. I saw his very complimentary. Um, and I have been grateful to the movement for a number of things because they've been a frankly, they've been better able than we as behavior analysts have to convince more people that we need to stop punishing people.  Ah, that we need Thio start talking to people more and asking people about what they're doing, that we need to look at behavior in context. We need to understand the systems within which people are working all of those things. I think they've done a fabulous job of really bringing to the forefront, getting the conversation going so more and more people are willing to have those conversations. We've always thought those things, and we've tried to get up them But you know, again, just not as successfully, I think, is some of the h o H o P folks have.  So I think it's It's so go ahead. You know, I was just gonna say, I think I think it's very complimentary in what's been disturbing to me is when I hear some of those folks, um, being quite critical of behavioral approach. Um, it's it's unfortunate because I think it's all based on Mr Misunderstanding. It's based on their understanding of a poorly designed and executed BBS system, as opposed to a behavioral approach of behavioral science approach. And I think to dismiss a behavioral approaches to really miss out on the opportunity to learn right.  It's all about organizational learning. And the science of Beaver has a ton to teach people about how to improve safety s Oh, it's just unfortunate that that it gets dismissed by some folks. Think Jay Allen show. Are you tired of not being able to reach people inside of your organization? What if there's a better approach? What if you could contact them in a click of a button? Here, it's safety FM. We can assist you reach your team, be a podcast. How about setting up a private podcast for just you and your team members?  We will cover topics that are important to you in your company. Visit safety FM dot com that safety FM dot com and click on surfaces for more information about your own private podcast. Safety FM a Safety focus moment venture and we're Back with Judy Agnew from Aubrey Daniels International. But now the interesting thing is, I've had a pretty interesting mix of people come on to the show and I've had people from the H o p side of the House, people from the BVs side of the House and they all have different opinions on how hop came about.  And you being a scientist, I have to ask. Of course, the following question is going to be worried. Kind of weird. But it was based on a conversation that I had with Tim Ludwig. He stated that if it wouldn't have been because of behavior based safety, hop would have never existed. What is your feelings of line? That statement? Well, I can see why he said that, um I don't know. I don't know if that's true or not. I really don't know what it is because he says that that really hop was develop inside of the BBS side of the house.  Now I don't have any information, white paper, someone that states otherwise that agrees or disagrees with this point of view. But it was a common that he made on the show, and I've always been interested. The more more people I talk to you because I look at hop is being a bolt onto BBS. That's just my opinion, and I could be absolutely incorrect from some people's point of view. But I look at it and I go when I get to talk to somebody who's a behaviorist. I always like to ask that question because I'm interested in their point of view, especially for somebody is you've been doing this for about 28 years now.  So around the same amount of time that give or take, that hop has been around based on the information that I could find. So your point of view, of course, will be important. Well, I guess you know, and again I have no expertise on this either. But it's it was my impression just based on you know when I started reading about it where you know, if I if you look a TTE reason and Decker you know, they is my understanding really started in the area of of medical errors.  Ah, where where? BBS Frankly, it has never gained much traction. So to me, it almost seemed like they were kind of on parallel tracks. Um and then just, you know, in the last whatever it's been 8 to 10 years of kind of kind of come together. Um, I do think behavior based safety has has laid the groundwork. I think in many ways, because really prior to behavior based safety, I mean, it was commanding control, right? Just you just tell people what to do and you don't talk to the worker.  And you know, one of the things that bothers me about people blaming BBS for for the blame, the worker mentality, it you know, people workers were being blamed long before BBS ever came along. Right? That was always the default that if they did something wrong, it was their fault. We were punished them. We tried to correct that by saying, Look, there's reasons why you know, you start with the assumption, right? Always if it's if it's a good worker is is 99. 999% of the people are They're just trying to do a good job.  So why would a good worker do something that puts themselves or others at risk? There's reasons, and it's not because they're a bad person or they're stupid or they're lazy Or all the other reasons you here. So we were always trying to say We've gotta understand behavior in context. We gotta understand what's going on for that worker again. Assuming is a good worker. Why would that good worker choose to do something that puts him at risk? And so, you know, I think those those thing we were starting to have those conversations and tryingto educate the people that we were working with to start looking at that.  And I think then at the same time, the tube P folks are saying we got to start talking to the workers were you know, they got a look at behavior and they would talk about it a little differently, but we've got a We've got a look at what's happening in the environment and look at the systems. People are working in tow, understand errors and obviously to create better systems to prevent Ares. So I guess I see them as a CZ parallel. But again, I have no scientific evidence.  So when it comes to the whole concept of when you hear that hop is a philosophy, how does that make you feel in that particular regard? Because behavior of a safety is not a philosophy. Yeah. Ah, well, I guess, um and I know I'm not supposed to ask the scientists, but I have this terrible habit of doing it all the time because that's just how I do my scientific work. But I also like to know how people feel about things, because I think that kind of really drives a lot of it.  Yeah, well, I mean, that was a the first. My first exposure to the H. O. P. Again was sort of with the reason. And Decker's kind of work was I loved the philosophy and like, Is it to me? The philosophy was very complimentary to, you know, a behavioral philosophy. Um, but they just talked about it in a way that seems so much more compelling to ah safety audience. Um, and I think the philosophy is very helpful. I mean, Thio to get people to start thinking about safety differently, thinking, you know, we would use a little bit different language, but to say you got to stop, we've got to stop blaming people.  Uh, we've got to start looking at what they're doing in context. I mean, I think that whole if we're gonna call it a philosophy, great, but getting people to shift, how they look at safe and at risk behavior, how they look at errors. Um, and and by the way, I would say that at every level, Not just that, the front line, because supervisors and managers are doing things they shouldn't be doing, too, but not because they're bad people, but because of the the environment we put them in, and you know all of the pressures on them and all those things.  But that philosophy of shifting the way we look at performance is very helpful is very helpful. You mentioned something there, too, about the supervisor, and let's talk about mid level management. I think it's a very interesting place for the mid level management to be because they're kind of sandwich in between, depending on what's going on between the worker and the actual organization. Depending if there's a change going in. And let's say, for instance, there behave. They're looking at her from ah baby s point of view if they're looking at from a pop point of view.  Sometimes I think that transition has to be very interesting for the middle because everything is going to be based on you, kind of like in the sandwich if you want to really look at that, what you're the meat of the sandwich is things could go one way or the other. So when you do your BVs interactions with people that are in middle management, do you see a lot of pushback on regards of? I have to get the right information to the people that air, possibly in the sea level, and then I have to make sure that I'm giving the correct information to the people that are out there on the Yeah, it is a very, very difficult spot to be in.  And, um, you know, sometimes the conversation with people at that level is your job is really thio. Protect the people below you from whatever pressures you're getting from up above. That air focused often largely on lagging indicators, right? So So they're the ones who were having getting called to the carpet, you know, around incident rate and those sorts of things. And so my advice to them is, you know, if that's what you're held a column before then, then so be it would love to work with senior leaders to get them off those lagging indicators and start holding you accountable for proactive things.  But if we can't do that, then your job is a middle manager is the buck stops there? Don't then let that flow downhill. Your job is to figure out what you want your supervisors to do and your front line folks to Dio to prevent incidents and hold him accountable for that. And you know that that's a hard thing for them to do, because that's not what they're being held accountable for. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So now I have a question for you know, normally, when an organization reaches out to you are the unit, do you normally see a trend?  They're in some kind of a particular process or they're getting stuck in a certain area inside of their system before they actually reach out in contact. Yeah, we get ah, lot of people who will contact us and say some version of this. We have done everything we can think to Dio were we Platt, Toad, we know that we're not doing a good job of behavior, you know, they'll often say that we don't have the behavior piece. Um, you know, so they know that they're not. They're not getting consistency around behavior, whether that's leadership behavior or frontline behavior or both.  Usually, and so they come to us, you know, for help with that. Ah, we also obviously is. A lot of consultants do get people coming to us because they've had, you know, either a rash of incidents or serious incident finality, um, and there scratching their head often after unsaid investigation where they figure out that behavior had something to do with the incident. And again, they have done everything they can think to dio to ensure the people do things consistently, and they're just they know they're just not getting it.  And so they come to us for help without, and that's really that's really in a nutshell. What we do is improve behavioral consistency, and a lot of our work now is with leaders. We do more safe, Delia, Behavioral safety leadership work than we. D'oh! Frontline behavior based safety. Well, I always find it funny when you walk in and sometimes have a conversation with certain leaders where they say, Well, we have this problem and we need it fixed by ex time. Do you run into any other? Oh, yeah.  Oh, yeah. How quickly can you fix this? Yeah. And, you know, again, talk about philosophy changes. You know, part of it is giving getting leaders to see that it's not about fixing them. It's actually about fixing you. Turns out, because leaders of the ones who create the context within which work is done, right, so they're creating and managing the systems. And so, you know, it's really has to start with them changing what they're doing to get the change and and so, yeah, we get a lot of, you know, people are impatient, they want improvement right away.  But, you know, I always say, If you've ever tried to change a habit, have you ever tried to, you know, lose weight or exercise more. That doesn't happen overnight, so you have to be patient now, Judy, with thing has surprised you so far throughout your career that you didn't expect to happen. Ah, well, I will tell you. When I first started, um, we had to define what we meant by behavior. Um, it was just not a word that was used in a business setting. People would say, What, what?  When my kids behave, But what are you talking about? You know, so that was a surprise. And that was really a function of behavior, of a safety that really changed everything. And the the fact that people now really understand the behavior is at the heart of everything. We do not just safety. And it's really important to pay attention to behavior and why people behave and understanding it and and better, better being able to set people up to do the right things. That that has been a pleasant surprise.  Um, I'm also surprised frankly, when I look back at the progress we've made in safety, I mean, it's remarkable when I think of when I went into organizations help the incident rates, you know, it's just so much more. You know, so many more people getting hurt. Um, such a really. Now it feels archaic way of managing safety. I mean, we've we've come a long, long way, and we've certainly got more to go, But, um, it's been it's been really nice to see that improvement, and I think it's just it's kind of taking off.  My hope is, and I think H o. P. And behavioral approach or, you know, if we can join forces are gonna make this happen. But I think if we can get to the point where we stop relying on lagging indicators in safety, we're going to see a step change in safety. I normally have a lot of conversations with people about their beliefs in safety and how they look at things. And not that I think you're gonna retire anytime soon. But I always like to ask this question.  What do you think your legacy will be for the industry, boy, I don't know. That's a That's a heavy question. Well, I hope that, and it's probably largely through my books. And maybe, um, maybe some of articles that have written that that I just they're great articles, by the way. I want to thank you. I hope that I've been able to help some people view behavior differently that they get away from again. That the blame that blame and punish, blame and train that doesn't help anybody ever Ah, and get more to understanding behavior, understanding, consequences and the influence they have on behavior.  Understanding the importance of talking to people, looking at behavior from the performers Perspective. If I could, you know, think that I helped, you know, some people get better at that. That would be a good thing. Did you have in anything that's coming up there might be open to the public that they can come and see you speak. Ah, it's good question. I am D'oh! Open the public. I can't think of anything in the near future. Um, yeah, uh, usually have something. The places that I'm speaking out or not open to the public on a near fusion.  I know the public, the public portion of Gold Partner. Of course, I'm not speaking at SSP this year for the first time in many, many years. Um but I But you're still, but you're still coming to Well, I probably will because, you know Yeah. Hey, that's where you live, right? Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always a great conference. And now if people want to get more information about you working to get the best place would be our website, So Aubrey Daniels dot com So a u b r e y Daniel's than s dot com.  Um, there's lots of resources there so you can buy our books there. You can get articles. There's a few. We do what we call behavioral minutes short little videos, or were you just share little bits of information that usually people find helpful. So there's lots of resources on that website. Well, Judy, I do appreciate you coming on. Well, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. This brings this episode of the J. Allen Show to an end. I hope you enjoyed the conversation is a bunch of it.  I did. It won't be too long before we're back with another episode of The J. Allen Show. Goodbye for now. Once more, the J Allen show The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or physician of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It's not be utilized in the real world that the only solution available as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company.  No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen here.