This is what this show is brought to you by Safety FM Hello and welcome to the J. Allen Show. Today's Tuesday, July, the 21st of 2020. I hope all is well in your neck of the woods. We are streaming live from the safety FM's studios in Orlando, Florida So let me tell you of what we have going on today. Today we have a conversation with Sidney Dekker. Sidney Decker is a professor in a director of safety science innovation lab at Griffith University in Australia and a professor at the Faculty of Aerospace Engineering in the Netherlands.  Sydney has lived and worked in seven countries across four continents and won worldwide acclaim for his groundbreaking work in Human Factors in Safety. He coined the term safety differently back in 2012 which has since turned into a global movement for change. It encourages organizations to de clutter their bureaucracy and set people free to make things go well and to offer compassion, restoration, learning when they don't. An avid pilot of planes large and small, he has been flying a Boeing 7 37 as an airline pilot on the side. Sidney's best selling author for most recently, Foundations of Safety. Science.  The Safety Anarchist, The End of Heaven, Just Culture Safety Differently. The Field Guide to Understanding Human Error, Second Victim Drifting to Failure and patient Safety. He has directed the documentaries safety differently in 2017 Just Culture in 2018 The Complexity of Failure in 2018 and Doing Safety Differently in 2019. His work has over 12,200 citations in an H index of 47. It is my pleasure Welcome Sidney Decker to this limited commercial episode of the J. Allen Show. Sydney. Welcome to the Show it. So let's start off from the very beginning. I always like to start off the conversation with Got You to Fall in Love with safety.  Why did you decide to dedicate mean your whole career to it? At this point, you had to. I mean, if you've been doing it, protect a long period of time. There is no way that you can have some levels of love into it all. There's there's all kinds of ways to look at that one, this one Is it really cynical? And if that's it, well, let's start off there, then Grisly. All friend of mine said, it's up at some point. It I just earlier, uh, curve your career, that's which want to call it, he said.  You know said, The problem is, the more you have done, the less you can do. And I found the super depressing but quite accurate because the war you've done of a certain thing, the more people associate you is that the more of it is on your eyes on your resume, uh, the more people are willing to give you jobs associate with that sort of thing and not with anything else. It's so so there is There's actually they seem to be a truth. Do this. Uh uh. How did I fall in love with?  No, I fell in love with flying my football Muppet Aviation. First it. So, uh, that happened when I was three years old. My parents actually didn't have a talent television. Right. I, um I was, uh I grew up in the seventies. No television. Um and but my grandma had I had a television. I'm gonna say for the seventies, it's kind of late for not having a TV. I'm just throwing that out there. You know, I'm not trying to be judged tha Netherlands the You know, it wasn't. Yeah.  No, it is a little bit, but but it's okay. So it's a point of the show up in my life. I must be the teenager way so, And we're on radio. Where now? Our You know, our other other media Elvis here either. So, Bailey J So So I watched a, um, a program. I was three years old watching this program, uh, my grand Gramps. And had she, uh, certainly grandma's. And she, uh, um she had on something back was about flying and eating in the mountains. And I went, Oh, my word that it just made such an impression that I decided this is something that I would really love to, uh and so?  So as soon as I was legal, age to go fly, which is 14 were flying gliders, I it is so low it started flying. And then, interestingly, I am taught at a school in uni Um, and already pretty early on, I started studying psychology, my major, and, uh um I found a way to combine the interested in psychology human performance with with flying. And so there's aviation psychology. I turns out to be an entire field, and so eso Then I try to specialize That and I got it.  Woods to Ohio State after I got a couple of masters to get my PhD. So the first thing that I learned there is that, you know, the police in the lab, a date Windsor writing a really cool book on, um, going behind the label. Human error. And so what can we find behind this label? O que era? Um, I found a super fascinating And and, of course, as you grow, you know, 15 years or 20 years later. Yeah, um, I redid the diversion of that book behind human error with states and his colleagues, uh, two dated and get bullish Teoh, uh, beyond the Air Force publication that they had at the time.  So then you sort of tumble into this on the combination of psychology of one hand and of course, engineering. The other had built stuff. So so people don't get invitations. Screw the thing. The who was, uh, was, uh, what's the right word to use? What's the motor? The engine behind behind the engagement with with safety. Interestingly, Jay, I think, is only in the last 10 years Let me tell you why that I got engaged with what we would turn workplace safety or hard hats safety here. Because all of the work before then was in sexy high tech world's I take healthcare stuff.  High tech aviation stuff, fast jets, eyes. I was working with Saab in Sweden, building fighter jets. Yeah, well, I wasn't going to say hold on here. There's more than just really with the British Aerospace of the UK, you know? And then they were really five agents. And so it was a little It was through the literally the pointy nose, end of safety eyes the with the meese that do relatively high end safety stuff. And but then eso at some point, you know, of course I make flying into the career is well on the side, which, which happened when I got tired by by Louis University in Sweden is a professor and a T. And I, uh, had the opportunity type rating on 7 37 get all my other ratings up.  Well, I'm gonna have to ask you that. How do you create extra time. There has to be a secret to it. You can't be doing all of this work and all of a sudden create a secondary career. I mean, the way that I This is true. And I have had, well, a sweet and helps. Yeah, I can explain that. I look like a 25th hour in your day that we don't know. No, but the sweets are super efficient people on dso. What they do is a version way on three kids, eight street.  Look, three little kids at the time. And, well, little Fiji, it's and my wife is an academic. And so she has her has agreed You should buy a biochemist. So there's none of this, uh, this, uh, single job, single career, family nonsense. This is a career to academically. Super busy. Uh um my childhood sweetheart, by the way, eso So we've known each other since. Oh, God. And, um, so married twin tickets on, uh, with sweets. When they do, they give you, like, 400 days. Parents will leave her kids pain flood in the US for sure. Exactly.  And so on. And yes, they think they produce pretty efficient well grown as has has it badly Azzan other places this week. But but them. But what that does is it creates a situation in which family life and developing a dual career is actually doable. Um, you know, yes, there's There's IAEA's unity. There were quick home with kids, in fact, that so bored being home with with the 1st 1 that this is whenever he feels that to understand. If you did you see that out, should you say that?  How about that? You got bored with the first kid? No, I love him to bits. I love it to bits, but, you know, maybe speaks, you know itself. So you're okay. Or like, now you know how it, uh, what's the windows or something? No, I was actually in the baby room, so this is really cool. The first field got to understand that you were the one that told conflict. Picked up a few years later and then to golf with his stuff. The one I wrote 2001. Uh, well, publishing was written in Jonathan's baby route and, you know, a little desk set up there and then, uh, so easily crew, he's dozing away and writing the book.  And then, you know, we start stereo. I got this finish. Wanted co author credits is what it was. That's what he was working on at the time. That's interesting because you know that, right? Theorem? He's now what? What what TV is 2020. But Tim eso So that's That's where the first book was. Bored literally out of that sweet parental leave, which was, isn't the intention of parent believe looking when it when else do you have the opportunity is apparent to write a book or has an academic too busy with other other stuff.  So which is ironic anyway? Come back in the act of the 77 fly? Um wow. Yeah. I mean, I think I did borrow a little little from the marital bank for that one. Um and so I have to admit that because the pacing of the training is pretty severe. Even so, there's on. The timing is crap. What I mean by that is the the simulator slots that you get assigned, you know, you four hour slots, right, plus briefing before and half. So which may happen in the middle of the night because every time I have to drive to Copenhagen because that's where it was, which is in a country of the wages of the country.  And, uh so So that was quite yeah, that was a bit of an old sport. And so, um, my wife was was wrapping up her PhD at the time, So those are not times to really, you know, borrow against marital credit. Uh, so it'll work out good, And, uh, and then I was able Teoh to basically tell the airline which we just tickle to have a professor, if you in factories and safety and also there, uh, fly with. They thought that was very cool idea to tell him that I needed to do this part time after going through my lying training.  And so, uh, and then I was pretty much able to negotiate with Scheduler. Um What? I wanted him, which so the coolest trip was was from from Copenhagen, at Venice. Uh, show up 10 car more in a which is a gentlemanly, our no nonsense of five years 6 30 pushback to fly a bunch of people down to my like Carson Sun destination. You know why you're in this. They haven't even had breakfast yet. It's all Andi. And he has to remind you so I'm doing this because it's fun because you love it.  You love it. I mean, it's something you've been looking at since you were three, So Yeah, true. True. Although I think most miles we read that. You know, Theo, the infatuation with flying is not necessarily thing that you experience when you sit there three hours into the trip, looking at the ordination, doing all the things and with nothing to look at outside because you're either a night. All right. At some point, you should always be flying in tonight s O. But then you know these airline you start descending.  And it was actually airline that encouraged hand flying. Which is why I do it on computers. I have computers there. Yeah, so, driving something by hand ways, you know, 65 tons 60 tons is actually really cool. So you click it off in 14 50,000 feet, just fly all the way down. That was so that made triple. Always it. And I mean, the longer your hands like before landing Definitely the better the landing gets you know you really have developed the field to saying I then And so, um, anyway so But that's certainly what was interesting about that, Jay, was that the young, uh, was the position of a copilot in an airline that still have a couple of crusty crystals captains in there.  And I I recall one instant in which I was, uh, flying to a dark story field. Middle Denmark, Uh, 11 evening with the captain that who might fling with before. And, uh uh oh. Didn't like Professor Hole and thought he could drive this which it by himself. And, uh, you know, the typical role for a copilot is uh, uh, Gear up, flaps up. Shut up. Okay. And so, um, there still around? And, um, the everything we write about Sierra accrue short management and speaking up, um, copilots decided to remain quiet and then drive themselves into their own death.  Um, actually became a lived experience, which which, uh, which renders me to this day. Uh um, not humiliated, but at least really modest about making claims and expecting people to do the right thing in situations like that is if someone who talks for a living who has absolutely no problem blabbing and talking, writing and expressing himself gets configured into a situation in which he's policing to silence. Um, and then no one is superior to anybody else in this right? And so what? What was re cool about the whole thing, though, was was it's It's very different from just blabbing about you.  As I said, you live the experience. You will be the first at the scene of the accident, which means that it really focuses the mind where I point the nose. Ah, 189 people are going okay, and they have no say in the matter. Um, and so the ethical implications of that, instead of just being an academic, are huge and I think have have rendered me, if anything, I hope or authentic, more, more, more willing to see all kinds of viewpoints. Uh uh. So, um yeah, that that that's an interesting combination of safety, Theo, Interest in safety and and living it.  Now Do you think that this gives you a different perspective compared to most academics? Because it gives you on operator perspective as well as an academic perspective because of what you've been through from the airline industry. In a way, I would hope so. Although I I I'm in no position to judge the perspective on the experiences that background that anybody else breaks to to what they believe will find. Um But what I do, uh, recognizing how I work myself is and this is this gets the trauma of quite a few times, actually, Jays is that I am very sympathetic to the few point of the operator, um, to the point where where I frequently fight with managers and boards about there stultified limited, arrogant, um, uh, interpretations of of work has done on on the floor of the example.  I was I was working with a company that makes, uh, makes palates. You know, they think that making as well and then you preparing, um, so there's a huge production pressure. They like the resource is of the time and all kinds of other things going on on dove course like old kinds of lines. You know, you've got this in in clearing centuries or fulfillment centers said Amazon and others. Uh, lots of lines and lines get stuck, you know, boxes gets jammed, didn't you? And So what do you do?  What? You gotta stop the one You want to stop the line Because that stop that has all kinds of no consequence. Just money, money, money. Yeah, make a lot of bullet happy. And so what do you do? You crawl into the line, unhitched the saying and boom, it goes easy on and so on. But of course, employers would would cry foul it. So I can't do that. You do that, you're fired. Okay. And so, um, so that was the case here. I like this stuff guy guy on jams it with the paddle slams back and braces.  Stuff on. This is on video. See? Happen. Poor dude. You know, folkies She had happened. So we look at this right enough tracing. A lot of you have done the field thing and site. So there's this as the story goes on, human error is not because of trouble. It is a consequence of trouble. Deep rate the organization. Right. So true to my own words, um, I put this before a whole suite of managers of this pellet company, and, um and then this This, uh, the operationally responsible manager After listening to what he considered pure drivel And sweet, soft, fuzzy, nonsensical human interest Nonsense.  Just grunts every clearing. Um, and, uh, j I lost it. Just lost eso I try not to get angry uses. Really, It's not useful. Uh, but and I think to well controlled for them. But so hold on. When you say you lost it, what happened in return? What did you I mean, you have to go into specifics, but what was the seller so well, What? When I when I say I lost what I What I first did was was expressed very strongly my disappointed thistle appointment and deep in patients with his, uh, with this a clear, uh, unwillingness stove in his mind, doing different way of looking at this problem and that by doing what he was doing and saying what you're saying, all the resulting was asking for the next one and so on that we hadn t talked for an hour and 1/2 to arrive at a point in which you just legitimate to say what he just said.  I think it went down like that a little bit. Um j I don't think it made a damn difference, actually thinking just folded his arms and said, Setback on GATT's My Loss Night and if you is you're incapable of keeping beautifully the conversation then then that's my loss. So So when you when you go back and you take a look at this, of course, it's a learning scenario for you as well. Is that it is for the organization? How did you think? Or looking back Now, how do you think you could have done it better?  Yeah. Now, that's good. That's a good question. Um, in particular one actually not not, uh, you know, not hindsight. 2020. I'm not trying to pull that. No, no, no, it's not. It's actually digital question. Ask, um I am, uh I don't know in the exact dynamics of the situation, what it would have been. But what I have learned is that, um, the main aim in doing this and getting through to people is to keep them engaged in the conversation. If if what I do in my impatient reaction to somebody who had like, after an hour and 1/2 still doesn't get it on clearly wants to posture in front of his colleagues that he's got it all under control.  That's people that just bloody idiots. If I am my reaction to that, uh, somehow May his voice and his viewpoint sound utterly illegitimate. Um, then that's that's not constructive. To the discussion and to the learning moment. Uh, and and in conflict avoiding cultures, it's you quite embarrassing. People, like a little of the gods were not conflict avoiding from other other cultures through. And so And I'm very aware that, but I seek, um uh, looking back, I think I should have invited him in a conversation by by asking questions.  Um, tell me more about Rome. What would write hey and presentable. That could be a question, right and bright. But he says, Are you did the wrong thing? Well, tell me what wrong? What what was the right thing that is wrong. And so and then move him to a place in which we can start talking about how he says people of for doing the room thing rather than sending his people up for doing the right thing. Uh, by constricting their choice choices available to the point where where this is the only legitimate option that people see as available to that would be an accomplishment.  And that would be nice. So that's NJ. I'm human too. Only you know, I lose patients. I at some point decide people are worth investing in, you know? Good. You know, and I ask the question because a couple different things I want I want people. Toto, listen. His listers, of course, and myself is to Does you know what examples you can give up scenarios that you've had. And I think it's a great thing for us to be able to learn from, especially you're going through something similar to that.  So I have to ask a question. Of course. Is gonna throw some things off. At what point? During your your career did you say I have an idea of I don't know. Do you deem it a movie, or do you deem it a documentary? How do you How do you look at it? The just go try? Yeah. Do you call it what you created? You call mother with just culture, right? Uh, no. That started as a book, and it started, right? I know it's a book, but did you look at when you said we're gonna do video filming?  Do you look at it as a documentary, or do you look at it as a movie? I've always wondered. Wow, I should with my with my with my filmmaker. I thought Todd would've prepared you for some of these crazy questions that I asked. I contend that it's cool. It's cool. It's cool. I can make and unmake some thing. No talk has not done anything. So, um, but a movie or a doctor? So what did they do? Meet the definition of either. And Well, here's when you will hear.  Let's kind of backtrack. When you came up with the idea for the for the movie, was there already the thought process of something to put on video? Ah, no. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. In fact, this is a really interesting story. You're getting all the back stories. You think this is? What is this? I want to make this different in some of the other interviews that you just throw because this this again, this has everything to do with my kids. So, um um, so we move Teoh, I'm not living in my seventh country and you know so your languages ways of ways of being and eating and cultures and people, which is really nice and lovely and rich about life.  So we moved to this one to Australia a few years, have a go. And then I took with me Ah, an old mobile phone cell phone that I thought your and so which, which was a sort of really old model life. Well, it gets older, every body respond until, um and so apple when she and so the this phone is still with me and and it does with a phone does which is cold and get cold on that people that someone people these days expect. Teoh, you're always fighting the theme.  The the, uh I'm calling both this phone and it works. And my kids increasingly see this as a source of utter embarrassment. And and so, um, it's not like Richard Cookie uses it. It'll you know, clamshell foot. What? Which it is just so cool. But anyway, so I'm of this phone and his number. Then I'm flying on an airline here with a big kangaroo of the tail that, uh, another's a pilot. But, you know be ferry from one talk to the next and and they turn out to have a WiFi system aboard.  And then then you could. You can watch movies and documentaries by streaming them and I go. That's need to look at my phone and say, Of course, has no idea. It's utterly incapable of connecting do anything on DSO because it refused software updates for many years. And so eventually my kids convinced me to get a new folks. I got a new phone and then, you know, the newspaper we're reading. In fact, the New York Times stops delivering paper copies across the world, so I want to read it on on the screen.  I mean, why don't want to? Rio is good. I know choice. The illusion of choice is what I call it, the illusion of choice. You can read us everywhere. Yeah, true, but so about what? Everything were attacked in your time shows up. But the on the phone and I watched this is this is how it is that really tiny digital screen that's that's useless tiny one with the biggest tree. So my kids then convinced me to get, and I felt with a big, you know, here I felt.  And so, um, which which? Free eso the first time you take this into this airplane, this new iPhone I've all of it will be much Watch a documentary, J. I'm kidding. You're not. The first documentary I watch is a French documentary. I forget the name, but, uh, it really is about the the the Rhineland model of managing and changing a world of work from both men on the hierarchy and imposed constraints and orders to one of collaborative decision making Much flatter on. They did this across a number of industries.  And so the interview people, I go, man, I should do this with safety differently. I should do this with safety. We're doing all these cool things. What will wear a send with origin, energy and with weights of Hell's that we're doing all these cool things that you were writing about it, You see, second on. So So that's when engaged filmmakers and I think safety safety differently, I think came out in 2017 was 1st 1 I mean, that also shows you when I got finally into an age in which you're following, did more but um I have books to write who's got time to watch the phone.  So anyway, so and then, uh, yes. 70. And then, um, very quickly After that, I got a call from UK. Great. And so, uh, so that film comes out, then I get a call from pulled out. I got an email from my mom notes Who is the the HR manager of mercy care. Urgent care. So I mean, they a mental health images. So National service trust in the area Liverpool. And so every population, about five million people is a pretty big organization. Andi, she writes me just a few lines and say hi, it's us.  We're where we've seen Ah, using your phone con Just culture. The third edition which deals with story of Justice Onda, We have some amazing results. I, uh uh just want to let you know if ever there is a chance for you to be over and I look, we'd love to show you around, um knows it on. So I write back and, uh, no to come by. And for the few times this this very quickly this invitation morphs into something more, more more formal. But riel. But I say, you know, I'm happy to come to Liverpool to come take a look, but I will bring a camera crew him because I'm thinking and I really enjoy making the previous one.  Let's that this sounds like it's No, this is cinema. This could be really good on them. And so Mark Jacobson attacked along my filmmaker and, uh, did an amazing job. Now it doesn't answer the question whether to movie or a documentary. Well, you refer, you refer to it as a film as a film. So you put you put me in the middle there, so that was kind of way I see some admiration came about so that I really appreciate you saying that now there's some different things that I have noticed online that are coming about that you're about to start doing so You I notice that you're getting into the world of virtual sessions about to come on.  Eso eso Howard Howard, how are you feeling about this? Especially in how do I feel? Virtual session? The odd J there is There is nothing that conception to for the lift sense of the energy and the vibe in a room, right Where, uh, people, you see people get the light, you see ideas grow, you see faces scrunched up and and really struggling with a practical or moral question that comes out of the things that you're discussing. You can you can, um, and one of the things that gives me a lot of meaning in life is the sense of holding the room in my hand.  I mean, I don't want to sound arrogant or or possessive for our controlling with that, which is the sense of, um, you're so in the flow. You're so in a moment yourself. And I love that it's the It's the energy of the room that kind of guides the direction on where you're going. That's exactly right. And let's just be realistic in this particular format. Even now, as we're speaking now, unless we're engaging and I'm looking at the screen and you're looking at, your screen is kind of difficult to see where we're going in it is it's kind of difficult.  Sometimes when somebody gets that ah ha moment of I get what you're saying. I know be able to doing it virtually. I mean, I'm I'm kind of crazy. So I'm locked up in a room and talk to myself all the time. So I'm a little bit okay with you. Yeah. I really think about you, James. You don't even have to be looking at a screen to be talking to yourself, right? A man that psychological. Um wait till you know you're right. Minutes of the experience of having a screen full of little squares with faces is just not the sex is not the same thing.  It's a poor substitute. However, however, um, there is a huge advantage to it, and that is that the the reach can increase and diversify dramatically. And what I mean by that is people don't have to travel. They don't have to be part of a particular organization that either invited me organizing conference or in order to be there and be part of the conversation. Um, this is super low threshold, low price, low cost, low threshold, and on it's really cool when I see you citing up J Man, um, it'll be radio hosts like you.  It'd be is, um uh, maritime rescue volunteers from from, uh, somewhere around the atlantic. It's, um a ah ah. Firefighter and, um, I forget the country. It's a ah, mountaineer outdoors instructor in New Zealand. It's a, uh, it's a nurse in the UK it's a a construction executive in the US It's on the wall, and you go, I mean, but doesn't Does that diversity not present riel issues with getting a discussion going? Um, Well, first of all, we'll see, but I don't think it will. Actually, I think that sort of diversity when you talk about things that really are of generic concern how do you deal Beanie Fleet with the aftermath of an incident that could have heard somebody really bad?  Hey, that's a question that goes for all of them. Um, and they all have some moral stake in doing dealing with that question. How do you, uh, for how do you deal with the increasing bureaucracy ization of frontline work? There is hardly any world in which that is not happening, right, So they will share that concern. How do you How do you interpret the the uh but I mean, I remember many questions that way come up with but what I have found, you know, because of course, have racked up a whole bunch of experience teaching online, Given that the universities across the world have have very quickly had to have a thought.  That model is that a discussion, whereas it is possible, is not something that you can either let simultaneously Iraq the war leads you said, for let let it be created by the find of the energy of the room. Um, and an associate guiding hand, Um, A So you can do that live. Um, here I have found that you have to be as an instructor and a little bit more, um, structured, which I walking through ideas. The terror first talked about this agent. We get some questions and ideas and then some examples that we'll have somebody some things around that they want to know what this went about.  That and then eventually end up here. So, you know, just culture. Whatever you want to do is walk people through. The eso is where does this start? And why are people they'd be concerned about? You start writing about it. Um, Then what is it about those ideas that, uh, that really don't work or start working against us, right? In terms of the retributive just culture this nonsensical idea that you can just do the of behavior. It varies and risk taking and negligence or something about this until early, bizarre MacDonald ization of just culture, as if it's an algorithm that you just run behavior through it.  The answer. Popes out, you know, it's it's it's I shape. I had disbelief that people would commit to something like that, but, um, and be I know it's so, um, I'm editorializing. My own story. Thank you. Here here's the thing to you're doing three different sessions. So it's not like you're doing three back to back that and are the same thing which a lot of a lot of people are doing. But you're doing three totally different sessions. So yes, just culture. And then there's safety differently or doing safety differently on then the 3rd 1 which is foundations of safety size and half a day s Oh, that's really cool.  Well, they're already called Thea, so when we talk about safety size because I really was the thief. But first, the real challenge J you You might believe this, but was I right? So much, you know, and so I mean, I rail and arguing It's paperwork and all I do is produced. I write so many books and because I have ideas and I need anyway. So every year there's a new book and I go. And how was the so called last, uh, Kate herself go? How how can I sort of, uh, coagulate all that stuff that's in those books, Half of which I don't remember because I read them, I write them.  So, uh, how can I calculate that into meaningful ice ice? Uh, online deliveries. And so that was quite a struggle. So well, why you're strong over the I. And then I started. I told you, some ex students and other people around me Oh, no, what would work? Right. And they basically came back and said, You know, well, the brands would be just culture would be six differently, because you're pretty much overlapping with those pretence and then s o do notes. And then I decided, Yeah, we can walk through those, But then I really wanted to do, um for everyone out there.  My last university class, which was, you know, the foundation safety signs. Students don't get it out today. They would love that they'd be like, OK, Thea Bridge course. No, they wouldn't. They love listening to me. I'm not saying Don't they just want course they wanted it? Of course they want this to happen. So maybe three technical given, Teoh. That would be a very Andy Kaufman move of you if you actually read the word directly out of the textbook. You know so well. I mean, I have read my some of my other books right there.  Audiobooks, right now. Not next to me. You can't make it audio. We got a textbook, Jamie. I mean, that's gonna be everyone to sleep, right? There's gonna be so I'm also in the world of audiobooks creation. So there are There are some people that do the textbooks into an audiobook. And I'm not going to disagree with what you said. I'll just put it. I'm willing to look at her mama todo look. And so since I found it a terrible book to write. Good. But I think, but, you know, you're writing about other people's ideas and, you know, I'm finding myself building on those ideas and disagree.  I go, I want to write about my ideas. What's always an honest and writing about other people's ideas for 100 years. You don't be not writing for years and years. And so, but the really cool thing is is that it's hope. So what happens in that? And that's where of course, I feel tested it that one in the three hour version on it works really cool people coming back to Ohio. My company does. I cams all the time and you go OK. And they had no idea that I can't write this this 100 built with stands for but it's it's Ah. Anyway, this investigation method that lots of or existed use for the lack of knowing any better now because it delivers any meaningful results because it doesn't and so and they had no idea that this is based in late 19 eighties.  Ideas about, you know, Newtonian cost effectiveness, as depicted by the Swiss cheese, which itself is a 50 year later, replication off the domino model from the late from the early thirties, hydrate in which, you know, just imagine right the dominoes. They have eyes writing that you line them up, and then the eyes in the dominos. 50 years later, become holds in layers of cheese with the basic Newtonian assumptions underneath, Evolve are still, say, right, cause effect. Something small cannot leave something large once they asked elite next, it's completely linear.  And at the end of it'll, in order for the old models who work, you need an unsafe act by a front buying person at the sharp end to screw it up. And so these assumptions and even phrases and words are common across these two models and then find their way 50 years later again in an ICANN that some unwitting safety person applies even investigation, because that's what they were told to do now to be part of the revelation, which is really drivel for a professor. Biggest. You know, you do this living right and you find out where these ideas come from.  It laid out the geology of, um, but to be part of the revelation of somebody saying, Wow, I had no idea that by me doing this, I can. I am importing assumptions of human performance about how organizations work in safety and and gets broken and made in a in a company. I'm importing assumptions from basically 19 twenties late Industrial Revolution America in how I look at this 2020 in my company today. Um, and that is so empowering. Has just one example just one example. Uh, other examples drifting into failure, right?  It's not something I made. I wrote a book about it. Shirks three idea. The idea of a new organization slowly but gradually renegotiating unwittingly re negotiate when it sees as acceptable risk and making small steps toward the fridges of what is sustainable is not new, right? The first, the first really explicit work. It not This is from the 19 seventies and which is recall, right, Very turning. He starts to look at this, and he was 1st 1 in Cardiff in the UK to write a book. Um, that shows that accidents really should not be understood as engineering issues, but as administrative bureaucratic, human organizational issues.  And, uh, that happened after the 19 sixties, and it had to happen after the 19 sixties because until then, J and write it, I could explain the least thing trait that until there you you can you can you see the world as a za believer in modernism and if we built stuff well, we will get better. It compiled kinds of consumer goods and on Ben, all of a sudden, during the sixties, you get this awareness grow. There were lots of fakes growing, by the way, right on old of mine states around stuff.  But the people start seeing hang on is all of these great things of re building nuclear power plants and chemical plants and give us all these great things like plus it they could blow up in the night Agon create re debate trump for us, right? And so there's a ugly underbelly to all of this which which generates all kinds of awareness in the neck acceptance which of them gives rise or creates the cultural conditions for the appearance of this work of drifting into failure, which again, is not a word or a phrase that very attorneys.  But so it goes back to that. Then you go back to, you know, iceberg thinking and trying. You know, this this this completely misguided idea and you go, Well, where's the come from? Is people probably know. But I don't know. You find out that that, uh, hungry and insurance man not a scientist, right? Whose scientific method, By the way, right scientific method was four lines long. The method description for wine. That's a perfect four lines. Who needs more peer reviewers in journals today? I want to be the criteria scientific. Right.  But never mind, um, was an insurance man who had, of course, uh, agenda, which is to save up money, right? And so you want to reduce the number of claims coming it. Now, the shuttle base of the triangle eyes consists of incidents without any consequences. Right? And so, um, and you go, How could you know? Because, you know, his basic material was insurance claims, clothes, clean files. And if there is no harm, there's no claim. If there's no claim, you have no data. So it turns out, the deeper you take, it turns out that he made it up.  Agent made it up. There is actually no literally no basis for the triangle. And so when should get into And this You know, there's not only what science you do this with any critical mind should do, you know, is ask very fundamental questions about the assumptions underneath somebody's claim. Somebody's model and then review revealed hands of things that not necessarily make you disbeliever because those Navy style is very famous. Anthropologist would say, Is it still going to think with breath if it can still be good to think with?  But it can also be really destructive and stupid to think with because it gets you to do the wrong thing. As we know as we know, you know, county incidents and injuries is absolutely not predictive off you boiling stuff up in the night now, do you? You look at this also as well. Is it you at this point, this triangle, Morse's college dumb model has gotten people to safety differently or safety two point. Oh, or, however, people want a demon because they're noticing that it is not compatible with with work on how it should be done.  You know, I get asked that a version of that question a lot, also in terms of, for example, just culture or even, uh in understanding human error, uh, where people go. Oh, but shouldn't we first be doing a fax? You know, if your benefactors, whatever its quote in this show pigment police, um, in order to get where you are, shoot, we not first were through retributive, just culture with thes thes, thes wacky categories of honest mistakes and every state behaviour recklessness believe on. And I'm not saying that we should go through it, but I think do you agree that it has led people to get to safety differently?  To an extent? Um, it's an opinion question. So they're not I don't know what. It's an empirical question. Is there? Do I have a miracle data that says that that's the case. Yes, I do. This is true. Sorry. When I was trying to do in an answer, the question J. Was saying, I find it morally objectionable that we should be misguided people before getting them to a place that is probably more constructive for them in their organization and and more morally uplifting, right, that just on. So, um, but I think where people, If I look at the at this, well, if I could call it fan mail, um, it's ah, uh is very often the dead end that comes out of utter frustration with the way things are done in people's organizations to that point.  Um, either when it comes to responding, just the two incidents or Kalantari bureaucracy. A the disempowerment of people on the front line with increasing compliance requirements, eyes those frustrations and vexations and that get people to start living there, their nose and their their view and trying to find other other ways to do this stuff. So you mentioned something there. You mentioned fan mail. So I would imagine because you receive fan mail, you also receive hate mail. Just an assumption. Yeah, it's actually interesting me on dso you a couple of things.  I don't perceive a lot of hate mail. No good. Most hate mail? No, not directly. Because that takes courage and a lot of people don't have it now. And the reason that I bring this up because, of course, I look a different social media is because of what I do, you know. Now there is a guy that is convinced that safety differently is called safety differently because of your initials, and he posted online all the time. I was like, I never put the association, but I was like, That doesn't sound right.  I was like, If I have the source here, I have to ask the question as the yeah, it's also standing for a seat heist east. Um, beings, I threw you out that I would assume that that's not the answer. I just wanted to make sure that I have that point clear, but I didn't think it saying I have. I have a I have a wife who cuts down my ego back to regular size every day. It's still, uh, I have no need, no need for any of that now, But it's interesting.  I hadn't made that decision. Uh, that's that's a fast it. Well, good. All good on the person. I was amazed because I was like, I had never seen that I was like, Wow, I think you think is going to make this claim and stand for it without asking the source. But I don't recall having me ask this, but that's all right. They can say I have learned very quickly J that social media is the monetization off vituperation and hate and resentment on I refused to participate. Eso I don't read.  Not only did I not on Facebook and so let people say what they want to say, I really do not care. Well, I mean something because nothing I care about the corruption of my ideas. And there's a lot of there's a lot of people that corrupt your ideas. Let's be well, that's so a scientist. You do care about a little bit and, uh, the questioning of my integrity and character and that I will say it so. But I don't I don't want to be part of it because I have learned that that's in the more serious way of doing this Great.  And, you know, peer reviews is something that by which science lives, right and quality control is very, very strange. It in that regard here, if you bad reviews always make me feel worse than good reviews may be feel good. Okay, so it never sort of equals or balances out. So I'm not gonna go look for bad reviews. Look for improvement opportunities that feedback. And, um and but my my senses J. You know, more people are not talking about this stuff yet that are talking about Hitler, and so it's OK, it's OK. So what do you eat?  This conversation? What do you cannot be doing? What we're doing? Things will keep getting what we're getting, which is not good enough, right? Not good enough for sure. So what are you seeing right now with everything going on with Kobe? What? It What is your thought process and what? What are you writing about now? No good. The eso the book that will come out hopefully the in the, uh, beginning of 21 growth spirit, because we walked out so I could finish it, but also because it is inspired part by Will Seiko down.  And that is, um, a part of a larger discontent with free market thinking and what the detractors called neo liberalism, right? The idea that free markets are the solution to everything that the smaller government is, the better we can deal with all kinds of societal challenges, right? That was the idea that that year it Reagan introduced back in that back in the eighties, and it was certainly necessary to to deal with somebody crusted entitlements. And he shoots. And at the time, for sure. But that book, what I do is I trace on.  I don't think it has done that yet. I traced the very clear connection between free markets and unfree people. Um, on the one hand and free markets and fragile systems, on the other hand, and so free markets. At some great advantages, however, they counterintuitively produced unfree people by introducing a whole host of new compliance demands rules to follow, uh uh, checklists to do which didn't exist when, for example, government still owned that particular activity, right? But the government sells it off that of the market market full of contractors, full liability concerns for boards full of manslaughter, loss for it.  And all of a sudden it you've got this. This this mushroom of compliance demands that could be traced back to free markets entered into that activity. And so really interestingly, the the the The paradox of the whole idea is that free markets still unfree, people know, Actor called it. What we also see is that there's clearly between free market thinking and introducing free markets to, for example, health care. For example, uh, electricity distribution, other things that creates a new fragility, uh, vulnerability brittleness in the systems that are supposed to deliver these services.  Um, because ultimately they don't meet Adam Smith's, uh uh ideals of what a free market should be present. If you're sick, you're safe. You're not a consumer on Adam Smith's free market. That has a choice, you know. Do I want care or not? You know? Well, you want care that the question it becomes can you afford it, Which is inhumane, immoral and and greedy and clannish on any site it organizes itself. That way, you have to make choices like that as if you were a consumer with free choice on DSO.  We make increases in that the argument is more complex than that, obviously. So it because you have to read the book, which no one will. We've got to be something more thought audiobook, of course. Uh, Anyway, so, yes, there is a definite infusion of covert experiences in that, You know, if we, um if we whittled out government and make it essentially a hollowed out, slimmed down version of itself in which all got old with lots of confident people are pulling away because they no longer see it, a zit has a reasonable place to work.  Um, then you're asking for the kind of trouble that you get it right. And so that's perhaps to moralize it. But, um, and had a very short shriek version of the argument. But but that most people would probably recognized that. Something it. So So the other thing is yet where the the only thing is, uh, I run a research lab, right? I never had the idea that that research lab to be so vulnerable to, um a a simultaneous nosedive in all industries from which we get research money.  Normally reminding goes down. But then another industry groups up oil and gas go down, but then something else works out. So all of the sudden covert comes out, everything tanks. You know, that was a failure mode that we really hadn't planned for. And I don't think we're alone. However, we've, uh we've got lots of interesting work from healthcare. Uh, that actually has realized that bureaucratic talked down responses to a surprising, very uncertain, quickly escalating, uh, pandemic, um, are are not useful. And that a much deeper understanding of complexity and probability and emergence is necessary for them to train their front like clinical leaders in order to meet the challenges of a pandemic like this and to be at the forefront of something like that.  Well, I mean, great. Yeah, is really exciting. So as you look at the big picture in the big scale. Do you think that the impact that this has had on so many different industries will change the way that we do business going forward in the future on how the systems are built out? And part of me is optimistic with part of these pessimistic. And I see people are saying this about aviation, for example, right. We shouldn't be flying to us to a sunny destination for $29 way at the expense of the environment.  It's all this is old bad. Why we're doing this right and, um on. And so we shouldn't be shipping. We shouldn't have supply lines drawn thinly across the entire globe. Bernie Heavy diesel oil in Truckee containers across the world. In order to put things together that become our consumer goods, we should have more on shore manufacturing and thinks like that. All of those voices were legitimated through the early months of Covic. How much of that are we seeing? Sustained. Now, J, I'm a little pessimistic there, right people?  Uh, the for example, companies with supply lines deeply to China. And that is really organized co permanently around this, despite everything political It's so easy to Teoh to say it is too hard to find a meaningful cost effective alternative to this. You see the same flying and people are desperate to get out of. There were, you know, So let's go flying and all their really their own special till 29 bucks. Uh, let's go to the sun. Let's go for it. Out where you're ready are you know, So, um and you know, if you if you live in Montreal who complain you so we're really going to change I, um when did you should read the interview and other people with others?  There's a whole There's a whole science around this, a historical and sociological work that shows that yes, pandemics in the longer run have significant consequences for society. I just met You want the black? The black death in Europe, for example, had a significant impact on, uh, emancipation of what? Such as it was female him into a emancipation hand workforce participation because there was no choice they had that not happened. Who knows? We may not have had a female suffrage in the 1920 So whenever came in the USA, I'm making this up right in the big stretch of history.  And that makes definitely, uh, leave their trace in the immediate response to it, uh, the signs that are are not entirely immediately encourage. Right? Because people go there is no way out based on public opinion is really holiday, and important is how they look at it. Well, I appreciate you taking the time on coming onto the show. Please don't let this be a one and only I would love for you to come on multiple times in the future. Especially when when your books about to come out if you do have the opportunity of doing so.  I know that you're extremely busy. For the most part, I think it almost took me a year to get you onto the show. Not just just saying Just saying I hear Yeah, I had emailed you a long time ago, but I know you're a busy person, and and I had I had to talk to Rob Fisher. I talked to time. I talked about Ivan public e Anybody's like we're gonna talk to we're gonna get you on. And I was like, let me try one more time even to went through Sam and said, How did you do it?  What was the magic trick? But I really appreciate you taking the time I'm doing this now. If people don't get what you want to get more information about the things you're doing, where could they go to find out more on fire citi dot com So and you spell the name correctly cities of the traditional English way that I'm English but s I d. Anyway, I heard the K k R is a Dutch city. Decadal com That's it. That's where you go as lots of paper used in my book.  Sit there and you can sign up for the workshop. Yes, I'd love to see you. Your listen is there. I appreciate you coming on. Happy to DOJ, they'll be building a restorative just culture workshop on September the third, doing Safety Differently Workshop. That's also it's 7 a.m. Australian time. And then on September, the temp Foundations of safety Science at 7 a.m. Australian type both Thank you for taking you listen to this episode of the jail in share. If you're interested in hop 101 class, it's taking place on July 29th of 2020 Bill for you to go to safety FM dot io There are still tickets available.  This will bring another episode of the G. Allen show to an end. Thank you for always being the best part of Safety FM, and that is the listener. Safety FM is the home of real safety talk. We'll be back with another episode of the J. Allen show before Too long. Goodbye for now, the views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within with podcast are only example.  It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited. Undated Open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen