Having the conversation about a prenup isn't the easiest and that's why people avoid it. But the stats show that it's the worst mistake you can make. Over 50% of couples get divorced and most of the negotiations at that point are messy. So why not save yourself the hassle? On this episode, we have guest Anna-Marie, a divorce lawyer, giving you insight on what you need to know before you get married!
Check out Anna-Marie at https://www.mlawgroup.ca/
Welcome back. I'm the host. Thank you for tuning in and listening to our podcast and I'm excited because we're gonna be talking about. An interesting topic with a very interesting person. We have anna Marie here who is a prenup and divorce lawyer in the Toronto and surrounding area. We've had some really awesome conversations. Um it's a hot topic, right? It's a it's a really and sometimes maybe even a taboo topic. So Marie, thank you for joining us today. Well, thank you for having me in my experience. Any time we talk about love and money, there's always a lot to talk about and a lot to unpack. Yeah, there's it's one of those love hate relationships, right? So let's get into it. So maybe you can tell our audience a little bit more about the work that you do and why you got into this area. So, um most of my clients typically are professionals, business owners, um typically I would say mid to high net worth individuals and what we've been seeing is sort of an increased trend. Um First of all, people are getting married a little bit later in life and so they're getting married while they have assets, um a lot of people have homes now before they get married, um pensions, businesses, anything like that, and so what they really want to do is is have some certainty um in the event that they do divorce their spouse or they break up with their spouse if their common law. And so we've really found that there's been a big uptick in. People who really want to have these conversations about what their financial goals are, what their financial future looks like, um in a few aspects, in the aspects of, you know, maintaining the relationship if everyone, you know who they stay together, um what that looks like, and then as well, having those difficult conversations, what ifs of life, what if the relationship doesn't work, what does that look like? So that's really sort of, how I got into this was really seeing that there was a need, and there are a lot of people who really wanted to um have that sort of those conversations and really have certainty in their life. Yeah, that's really interesting. You talked about something that I didn't even really think about, which was, yes, um it's pretty evident that people are getting married a little bit later in life, so before you should have a childhood sweetheart or high school sweetheart and you end up getting married and then later in the twenties and now it's thirties and even forties, and so that dynamic is completely shifted, but I didn't think about the consequences, or I should say the things that come along with that, which is greater assets, You know, people actually have stuff um that could be lost, or could, there could be some turmoil involved in terms of trying to figure out who owns what assets, but when you're younger, you come into a relationship with pretty much nothing. So the whole dynamic, you're absolutely right. And I'm interested to know as well how much of this, you can say challenge comes from people coming into a relationship thinking, well, this is, you know, this is the whole concept of prenups, this is mine. And if we leave this relationship, this part is going to continue to be mine because I earned it, I built it, this isn't a joint thing because I'm talking about my personal perspective is, um, you know, going into marriage is always like, okay, we're, we're in a union, right? And not necessarily that we make this work if things aren't well, right, but should we get married? Because we wanted to be lifelong? So I guess this is a two part question. The first part is how do you deal with those conversations with clients or their spouses when it comes to, hey look, you know, yeah, you're getting married, you're supposed to share, but just in case you don't end up staying married, then you have to divide. How does that work? Well, I think the first step is, it's the language you use. So if you start the conversation with, I want, what's mine and yours is yours. These are very polarizing words. So instead we sort of encourage the couple, um, to have conversations that are more about, okay, what would be fair, what would be reasonable in the event that we did separate. Um, a lot of people get very confused. They think that the law is fair that it's 55 50 equal share. It's not the law actually is not fair at all. There are many nuances that people are shocked to learn about. And so that's why having this conversation um early on at the before they get married to say, what would be fair? Is it taking half of the value of the company that I built? Is it taking half of my pension? Maybe not. But the other idea that we also have these conversations with clients is It's not all or nothing. So we don't have to have these agreements where one person keeps everything and the other person is left destitute. Well maybe it's not 50% of the ownership interest in the company. Maybe percent, maybe it increases depending on the number of years you've been married. There's just a lot of different ways we can put these agreements together. That makes sense for the couple from a financial perspective based on their unique situation and I think that's really where the value add is in these agreements. Mm That's very interesting. Yeah, because the term fair, I think that is a great word to use. I think that's important when we do work with family businesses. That's one of the things that comes up is what is fair versus what is equitable and that's not necessarily the exact same thing. And so now you're also telling me something interesting. The courts are not fair. You go into that because I know I know a lot of guys and gals will be listening to this thinking okay what's going on here? What do you mean by that? Well what I mean by that is there's a formula that the law applies and when dividing up assets and so what typically happens is couples think okay well in some instances some people think okay well if this asset is in my name then perhaps I get to keep it or what does that look like? And the reality of the situation is no you you don't necessarily get to keep that asset. Well you can keep title in the asset, you will have to share the value. So somehow you're going to have to buy the other out of their interest in that particular piece of property. Um There are different nuances as well. Sometimes you get exclusions for things, sometimes you don't Um so this idea of oh well everything we own is 5050, it's not necessarily the case and in most instances it's not um I have many clients and men in particular who are absolutely shocked to learn that their pensions which can be in the millions have to actually be defi and and shared. And what that means is men are working longer now because they've lost half the value of their pensions, the retirement plans are gone. Um they have to figure out ways if they want to cash it out, how are they going to come up with that million dollars in money to pay out their spouse. So um the idea that, you know, people put all this hard work and energy into building their net worth into building their businesses into building their careers, etcetera. Um They're very shocked to learn that potentially all of that can be shared and frankly, without a prenup, there's nothing I can do as a divorce lawyer to help. Interesting. And do you have any stats? I'm not sure if you do, but you have any stats in terms of when it comes to marital splits, How many people actually have prenups? It's, I don't have the statistics on it, but it's very low, but I can tell you the good news story is it's, it's steadily increasing and really the cohort of people who are responsible for that are the millennials, right? The millennials are the ones who have been through seeing their parents for the most part go through nasty divorces. Um They don't want to go through that themselves. They saw happens, you know, financially when you don't have agreements in place. Um as we talked about earlier, they're getting married much later. Um They have some really interesting high paying jobs, they have assets coming into um not only cohabitation but marriage relationships and so they're the ones who you are saying, yeah, you know, we really should have this conversation and we should put something in place. And what's interesting is both sides of the couple are in agreement to do this. So the millennials will come and both um both sides are, yeah we need this agreement. So it's really been a bit of the culture shift and I'm happy to say. I I think the millennials have have really nailed it on this one. And I'm assuming, and do you see from if we take a look at it from a percentage perspective as well, I'm assuming that second marriages have a higher percentage of people going in with prenups. Um I just know a few individuals that have done that because the first obviously the first marriage didn't work out well and they wanted to be well protected going into their second marriage. Do you see that or is that just something that I'm seeing in my network, just in your network and I wish wish wish wish I could get that message out to people who are getting married for a second time. Um I will say what the trends that I see in my um practice is for the most part it's men who are very nervous about asking their partner to do the prenup for the second um this marriage or second relationship. Um A lot of them are very much saying, but I'm in love like how do I do this? I'm in love and we're in love and We're gonna be fine. Well the problem is second marriages have a 70% divorce rate. So it's much higher than first marriages. And we've already divided the pie, I'll say once with the first marriage. So we've already divided the business once. We've already divided the pitch in the investments, the property one, and now we're going to do it again. So we're now coming into an even worse situation. So from my perspective, it's absolutely mandatory if you are getting married for a second time or moving in with someone that's another one. People often forget um you need these agreements. Yeah. And I've seen so many men fall apart. Um not just after their first separation, but particularly in the second because now they are left with pretty much nothing. It just reminds me of An experience that I had, I had bought a piece of property. This was probably 15 years ago off this gentleman and it was, it was a distress sale. He wasn't able to afford the mortgage and I I purchased it with a partner and we invested in this property and it was a great piece of property. We just basically paid out the bank and this gentleman was left with a small amount to pay off his credit cards. And the reason why he got himself into this situation which we understood was he became a drug and getting involved in unfortunately selling drugs and not necessarily selling drugs himself, but his property became a drug haven for people who wanted to go because it was a larger piece of property and he was he was actually a nice guy. He was, he was a genuinely nice guy. Just got caught up in real tough times. I remember him talking to me and sharing his story and when you see him and I'm not sure what's happened to him now, but when I saw him at that point you could tell he was on drugs, he was on cocaine, he was just withered. He was skinny, completely unhealthy and he was talking about how his second marriage just broke him and broken financially as well. And he said that he didn't fight in both instances. He didn't fight because he wanted to give to his exes, but he was left with nothing and now he was a broken man in in no relationship and I, something's happened when he left and we took over the piece of property. You know, it's a moment that I'll never forget because he left pretty much everything and it wasn't a good situation the way he had to leave. That's a whole other story, there was like drug dealers in the house, my brother and I had to go in and actually physically kick them out. But he left his pictures his whole basically life, all his pictures there and when I looked at him when he was healthy and he had pictures from his first marriage and his second marriage, I had to hold back my tears. Gentleman, that was a solid stand up gentleman. You talked to all his neighbors, they were like, you know, Rudy was a great guy. He was an amazing person. He just, his relationships broke him and he was left with nothing. And that just really taught me a lesson how someone can just go from having, let's just say great life and just being a vibrant person to having nothing and being a completely different person. And it taught me a lesson not only from a relationship standpoint, but also from a financial standpoint because that stood out for me because he just talked about that. He said he was left with half and then half of half, which was, you know, he was, he was struggling after. So this is real, this happens. Um, and unfortunately he never took his pictures. I called him many times and he just never came back. So here's this whole entire life that he left behind. And I'm not sure what's happened to him. So not that I want to bring it into the zone of um, you know, negativity or bad news stories, but I think this is a reality, right? I'm sure you see this Annamarie like you see this day in and day out, I'm sure where people, um, are left with nothing and then maybe the content or maybe they have obviously second thoughts to say maybe I should have done this. Well, it's kind of the twofold issue right there. They're dealing with heartbreak, which is horrible to deal with in and of itself. And then at the same time you're expected to make decisions about your financial future when you're in that mindset of trying to deal um you know, the heartbreak of separation, etcetera. And so they're really kind of left in this bit of a, not a bit of it is a dark place and it takes a while for the process to for people to start coming out of the process. And so, I mean, just from even a mental health perspective, if you knew exactly what was going to happen to your assets, if you separated and then the experience happens and you're dealing with heartbreak, but you don't also have to deal with the money because you already dealt with it. Well, the two of you were in a really good place. Well, the two of you had those conversations about what was going to be fair for the family. Well, I mean, it's night and day with how much faster from a mental health perspective. Um, clients able to rebound sooner and really to move on with their life because that's the key. Um it also keeps people out of the court system out of fighting through that system, which inevitably extends these divorces. I mean, it's not uncommon to hear about people going through divorces for 10 years in the court system and every single time you have to get called to testify with the judge or go to court and take time off work and it wears you down. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. So this idea of saying no, we're gonna put together our plan, what that potentially looks like. And I don't mean plan for divorce. I mean, financial plan and we're just one of the, it's in the toolbox as part of your financial plan. So you've got insurance, you've got will's, you've got your prenup. We're just another tool in the toolbox. Yeah, very interesting. Um, just just on that note, then, I think it's similar to, as you're talking here, there's a couple of things that popped up for me. First one is, um lawyers who are in disputes, love people being in disputes because it's more billable hours for them. And so you're kind of doing, it's, it's kind of like the medical system, which is, there's the symptom based, you know, there's a preventative and then there's reactive most of our health care system is based on being reactive, right? It's pop a pill, you know, do this and, and you know, you'll you'll be able to keep your symptoms down, but it's really about getting to the root cause, which is what you're trying to do is help people avoid the challenge before it actually happens, which I commend you on. And one of the interesting things that I found when we were talking originally was you had asked if I knew any good marriage counselors or couples counselors because it's your intent wasn't to say, hey, look, you know, you want people to break up, it's, you want them to stay together. And I think that is so valuable. And I think that is such a different approach than what not to throw any other lawyers under the bus, but I think it's so different than what most people practice these days in law. Well, it's, it's really, I guess because I, what what happens right with the nasty divorces, what that all looks like for me, the biggest thing is the toll it takes on the Children. It's absolutely destructive. Um, parents don't, and I don't blame parents because they're in their own mindset trying to frankly just survive what's going on, the heartbreak, figuring out the money. Um, they don't realize how much damage is being done to the Children. And the problem is, um, the Children, for the most part, actually will not be able to recover. So for me, I see it as, um, if we can do as much as we can to prevent the conflict because it's the conflict that destroys the kids. Lawyers love conflict, frankly, we make the most money, the more conflict there is go to court, the court is a conflict system, adversaries. That's actually the term we use adversaries? Well, this is a family. So the idea of putting family members and immediate family pitting them against each other, having the battle out seeing which lawyer is the best. How is that helping the Children at all? So, for me, um, it really is so important to not only have these conversations early on, let's get the prenups in place, and if you do divorce, and even if you do divorce without a prenup really doing everything you can to keep yourself out of the system at the court system and doing what you can to collaboratively resolve these cases. It's so critical. Family's well being. Um, I completely agree with you because I think I see this a lot and it's really interesting because we do have some stats here. I don't know what the exact numbers are these days, but more women initiate divorce than men do, which is really interesting. A lot of people think that guys are the ones that just pick up and leave and take off or do whatever. It's actually not the case, it's kind of the reverse. Um, so guys out there thinking that, hey, look, you know what, I'm going to be the one that's the person that's gonna be the deciding factor in this relationship, although we have a big impact on whether a relationship stays together or not, it's women who are more often leaving the relationship, one of the reasons why I know that guys stay in the relationship, not necessarily, you know, guys do want to make things work and I'm not saying women don't, but it's that fear of losing their their wealth, their net worth. That is a huge thing, but also the Children And I'm seeing this trend and I'm and I'm I'm being very open and honest here, the show, this podcast, majority of our listeners, about 70% actually think 62% are men, 38% are women. So our our female audience is actually growing faster and faster, which is really interesting. And so this isn't a knock on women. But what I'm seeing more of from my personal experiences in our network is that women seem to becoming less, I'm gonna say conscious and mindful of these types of conversations and relationships seen firsthand, I've experienced it in working with individuals where I've seen women be more combative when it comes to the assets where the men, for example, are like, okay, I want to give you know, you deserve this, where the women is kind of like, I want to stick it to you now. That's that's kind of what I'm seeing more of these days, and I find that very interesting. Do you see that, do you do you see that kind of my own take on the dynamics of men and women and when they get divorced and what, so this is just my own take from my little bubble of information. Um one of the big things I would say the biggest thing for men, it's actually not about money, it's about the reputation, They don't want to be the bad guy, I don't want to be the bad guy who left my wife and kids, I don't want to be the bad guy to my family, I don't wanna be the bad guy to my friends, I don't even want to be the bad guy at work when everyone hears about me leaving my wife and kids, but if she initiates well what could I do right? She is the one, so it's it's a it's a problem because what's happening is um in general and this is not every man of course um they sort of wait for the woman to initiate and they kind of stay in that limbo space of the relationship where you know it's not working, you don't know how to fix it, you don't know if it should be fixed, whatever that looks like, you don't know if you should leave and restructured to be amazing co parenting family because there are families who are killing it, co parenting um they don't know what to do, so they stay in limbo, which is an excruciating place to be absolutely excruciating. Um and then the women are initiating but here's what the women are doing, women are planners. So the women have planned, so I have women who have called me, we've had multiple conversations about what it's gonna look like. They will plan to the last detail before, they will tell their partner okay, this, we, we have to break up. So by the time the man learns that this is the state of the union, um, their wife has already met with, the lawyer has already looked at the financial system. So, so the man is so much further behind and then he has to catch up. We'll catch up emotionally catch up. I mean, it's practically impossible. So it really puts them at a disadvantage, but it's the reality of what's happening. And then when you talked about, you know, women, I know you didn't use this word, but you know, going for the jugular, going for every penny. Um, the women want to feel all people want to feel valued. And so for the women, it's not necessarily a situation of, I just want to be a jerk and get every dime that I'm entitled to for them. Oftentimes it's how they feel that they were valued and they mattered in that relationship, especially when it comes to men who maybe, um, you know, spent more time building their career building their businesses. The women want to feel like they mattered and that they valued and that they were part of this process in this building and that's where they get the value from is by saying, well, no, I'm entitled to all of this and I'm going for it all because that's how I'm going to feel valued, that's very interesting, Uh, and I openly talked about my relationship. So my relationship with my wife has been very interesting over the years, we've been married for 11 years now and we had our challenges. Um and we had by, you know, this isn't to knock my in laws, but my wife comes from a set of family where her parents were separated and it wasn't the best way that it was done. And there's still some tensions there. And that's just kind of how she grew up. And people have this interesting belief and a lot of our beliefs come from our parents, which are really interesting and their marriages and we had some interesting conversations and I'm very open again as I said, when we were doing our will when I found out that she was first pregnant. Um my first instinct was okay, I gotta increase my insurance policy because I just in case something happens to me, I want to make sure she's left with something like and and taken care of. She doesn't need to worry about anything. And we also had to redo our will and everything as a result. And one of the interesting things that came up was what happens if if one of us passes away. Well, it was a natural conversation for me because I come from this, this world working with professionals and entrepreneurs and I basically said, yeah, obviously, you know, my my share whatever it is, it all just gets transferred over to my wife and then when the lawyer was talking to my wife, she's like, well, I think I wanted to go over to the kids. I'm like, what the heck. Well, I think this is strange and I'm like, okay, so I had, I was I was taken back because I'm like, this is just not something I expected and I had to respect. And I said, well why do you feel that way? And even the lawyer was like, why, why do you feel that way? She's like, what if you get remarried and you have kids and you don't take care of our kids? It was interesting to see her mindset because that was the experience that she had. Um and I'm I'm sharing this not to knock anybody or even my wife because she laughs at this, but we even went through an instance where we were almost separated and a lot of it had to do with external pressures and just belief systems about relationships. And there was a period where she had actually met with a lawyer and you're talking about women planning? And she told me after, I'm like, what the heck? Like where did that come from? Like, you know, I didn't even take it that far, like what's going on? So this whole perspective that you have in terms of women being planners. Um I think that is, I think that's important. I think um maybe a lot of guys overlook that. And and again, the challenge here and Marie is for me, I'd love to get your take on this is when it becomes these opposing forces in a relationship. How do you ask that? Especially when talking about prenups? Because, you know, it automatically becomes almost like you versus me, even though there's a fairness aspect, it's almost becoming like two sides versus one. How do you approach those types of conversations? Well, I'm no expert in this, but from my perspective, a few things, number one, open, clear communication is key. Um, having the conversation the way you say things, the word choices you use, like we talked about earlier, mine, yours, um, those can be very hurtful words. So you have to prepare if you're going to have this conversation, this isn't something we're just gonna do on the fly, you know, saturday morning over coffee with their spouse, like you actually want to be thoughtful in this conversation and then what you just touched upon was the wise, okay, I hear what you're saying. Why do you think this is something that would be good for us? And then when you unpack the wise and you learn a little bit about from your spouse's perspective, why this may potentially makes sense for the two of you. Um, that's where you can then really start making the decision, but if you come at it from a bit of an accusatory way. I mean that's when the other person just shut right down, you also have to give the person space, like a lot of times, and this happens a lot. I see it when people have conflict in their life where when they're having an uncomfortable conversation, they want to get out of that place as soon as possible. But we have to have the conversation now, we have to resolve this issue now so that I don't have to feel this uncomfortableness and that's just not the reality when you're making big decisions that sometimes people need space, they need to think things through. You might need to regroup and have multiple conversations, you know? But this this notion of, okay, we're in we're in a conflict situation and right away it has to get resolved and and and we have to figure it out right away because I I don't want to feel that uncomfortable pit in my stomach, which we feel when we're, you know, in that sort of place of having difficult conversations with people we love and care about. Um it's really important that, you know, you're mindful of how these conversations go and here's a follow up question to that. When is the best time to have these conversations? Well, I can tell you this based on my practice. Um the people, the couples who are on the same page when it comes to their money have the most success when it comes to marriage and success to marriage to me does not necessarily mean the two of you stay together in an unhappy relationship, that's not a successful marriage in my book. Um what I mean by that is a fulfilling relationship that two people have for many years, they grow together. Um They deal with the bumps of life together, those really meaningful relationships. Um if you're on the same page when it comes to money, it just happens to indicator of whether you're likely going to be able to have that that kind of um gold marriage, I'll call or goal relationship. Um So the sooner you have the conversation about money, in my opinion, this is probably the better um you know, certainly I'm I'm going to suggest maybe you don't do this on your first date and tell the other person, but maybe at some point when you are now starting to think about, okay, we're planning a future together, that would be a good time to start having conversations about money. And this is just another aspect about having those conversations about money and so we're kind of taking a look at it from a guy's perspective, We'll talk about it from a woman's perspective as well, because the assumption is that the guy is the one that makes more money, right? And has more the asset. So I think we're gonna have to kill that assumption because things have changed significantly. Um but it was, it was really interesting, I want to share again again, some stories here when I moved from british Columbia over to Ontario and Bc is kind of more of a, you could say laid back kind of western, you know, chill kind of environment. And I came out and started dating in Toronto, it was a really different dating scene for me and I was dating professional women and what I noticed was even within the first date or two, they would ask me questions about my financial status and I was not used to that, like I was just not, you know, I was in my was I I was in my late twenties And almost 30 and I would be like, what, what's going on here? Like what about me as an individual? What about me as a person? Um and I went so far as even making fun and joking around sometimes and being like, I'm an apple picker because literally we have an apple orchard and that's one of the things that I would say just to see the reaction. Um but I'm wondering like, I don't know if it was just, I'm sure it's a product of the environment of being in Toronto with professional women. I just found that very interesting, but I I wonder how well they would have taken it if I had brought up the conversation around? Well, I make X amount of money, but how open are you to having a prenup, like does it work both ways from that perspective, but okay. How about the other side? How about women? You know, women are making a lot more money right there taking a lot more responsibility. I do see this a lot where a lot of men are not stepping up, right? That's one of the biggest challenges right now. If I talk to my colleagues who are relationship Counselors and helping even women in the 30s trying to find someone, a lot of women are saying, yeah, the guys aren't stepping up. So do you find that women initiate these conversations as well when it comes to prenups? Not particularly. Which is a little bit surprising to some degree, the women will professional women. Um they will be having these conversations, they will be the ones initiating the call. Um For the most part, I would say, no, it's definitely still men who are the ones to be making the first inquiries. Um which is somewhat interesting given that women are the ones to initiate divorce then are the ones to initiate the prenups. I'm not sure the dynamic there. Um what I will tell you is professional women who are getting divorced where their partner perhaps didn't step up during the relationship. And and I'll say that from their perspective um and recognize there's two sides to every story and every couple's experience. Um but you know, they will view themselves as the primary breadwinner. They will view themselves as the primary caregiver, they will view um the contribution by um the spouse to be um not quite equal. Then they come to us and they say okay, you know, we're getting divorced etcetera, and then I have to break the bad news, which is okay, I recognize what you're saying, that you did not feel there were equal contributions to the relationship, but in the eyes of the law it doesn't matter, he's still going to get half of that everything. And so it actually sends um my women clients into such a dark place that they spent all this time and effort building the family building their businesses, building their careers and now they have to give half to their partner who they say, well he had all these opportunities to do the same things I did and he didn't do it and now he's and they're like absolutely not reality is they have no choice. And so for professional women, it's absolutely absolutely critical that they get prenups in place. That's very interesting because I think there is um yeah, there is a difference in thinking there and I can see that from women too, because they do end up being, you know, bringing in the money, but also taking care of a bigger chunk of the household as well. So there there it's almost like, and this is a generalization right that they've put in more time and effort and energy into all aspects, so I can, I can definitely see that as well, so this is, this has been a really great conversation. I have some more questions, but I want to save this for another episode because I think there's so many things that we can talk about, but maybe you can give your last bit of advice to the individuals out there who are kind of on the fence. Um and in the next episode, I do want to talk about those guys who are, I'm already married, what the heck do I do now? I don't have a prenup. So I think that's going to be a cool episode to to do. But for now, what is your advice to guys who are on the fence or haven't even thought about it, but they listen to this episode? Well, I think it's important if you have any assets of any sort investment accounts, pensions, properties, if you're getting a large inheritance, anything like that. Um I will tell you absolutely, you need a prenup period full stop. Um how you have those conversations, like we talked about, um you have to be very mindful of it. Um you have to be very um about your intentions on it. Um, I think it's a great idea for men in particular when they're doing their um whenever they do their annual review of their investments and what all of that looks like um to also take into consideration. You know, what happens, what ifs of life, What if I I di what happens, what if this relationship doesn't work out what happens. Um And just again really sort of including this idea on this notion in your larger financial planning. We you know we kind of are a little bit tongue in cheek about it but really what this is is its relation insurance to buy auto insurance and you don't expect to be in a car accident, you buy fire insurance because you don't expect your house to catch on fire. And this is the same thing. It's it's like relationship insurance. And so um our best case scenario is we drafted this agreement, you put it in a filing cabinet and we never see it again. That's the best case scenario. But if you do need it man, are you gonna be happy to open that filing cabinet and know exactly what's going to happen? Yeah great insight. I love that. So where can people find you if they're thinking guys are thinking or gals are thinking okay I'd like to talk to anna Marie a little bit more. Um And the work that you do, where can they go to connect with you just to our website and log group dot C. A. Um We were happy to answer any questions through email. They can even book a complimentary call um And just to get some information calling me doesn't make a decision on anything and I know people think when you call a lawyer it means okay we've we've done, we've taken an action on something, it doesn't have to be that way, you can simply be information gathering and and I'm happy to provide insights and and help um your listeners really sort of look at their particular situation. Great, and can you repeat your website one more time, we'll put it in the show notes. But for those who are listening, can you just repeat it? Great, thank you so much. And this podcast is all about having success, it's all about being successful. Hopefully the relationship doesn't fall apart, but we know the statistics, but I do want to recommend one book, I think it is just a fabulous book. This, I picked up this book almost 20 years ago and it changed my perspective on relationships and my approach um and has helped my wife and I significantly and we always go back to this book and the book is called Fall in Love Stay in Love by Willard Harley Jr Fall in Love Stay In Love. I recommend every single couple or even a single individual to pick up this book because if you're not in a relationship and you want to be in a relationship in a healthy relationship, this is a great book. Now, I'm gonna warn you, there's some traditional aspects in this book that talks about traditional marriages but there's a lot to be said about traditional marriages and the success rate and the happiness of each individual. So pick up that book, it's gonna do you a world of good. So I thank you for tuning Canterbury for being such an awesome guest and providing so much value here because I know there's people out there, they're gonna be really, really taking in this information and thinking about this seriously. So yeah, my pleasure. So thank you for tuning in and stay tuned to another episode.