Jim Poesl of Safety Wars drops in to talk with Sheldon about some of his recent guys. Topics have included the International Conference on Climate Change, Global Financial Crisis, Data hiding from OSHA, the OSHA general duty clause, Soverngn Immunity, and many more topics.
Keywords: Environment, Sustainability ,Workplace safety, Hazardous materials, Industrial hygiene, Occupational health, Safety regulations, Hazard prevention, Risk assessment, Chemical safety, Ergonomics, Health and safety, standards, Environmental policy, Workplace health promotion, Environmental health, Air quality, Water quality, Climate change, Green initiatives, Sustainable development, Government news, Public policy, Politics, Government services, Government programs, Public administration, Political analysis, Government leadership, Federal government, State government, Local government, Government accountability, Government transparency, Government efficiency, Government reform, Legislative updates, Government decision-making, Government technology, Government innovation, Public service, Workplace safety, Occupational safety, Safety training, Health and safety compliance, Safety management systems, Risk assessment, Safety audits, Safety culture, Incident investigation, Ergonomics, Hazard identification, Industrial hygiene, Safety inspections, Behavior-based safety, Safety program development, OSHA compliance, Safety policies and procedures, Job hazard analysis, Safety performance metrics, Safety certifications, Sheldon, Primus, Sheldon Primus, Safety FM, Jay Allen, Dr. Todd Conklin, Dr. Sydney Dekker, Safety Differently, HOP, BBS, COSS, COSM, Oil and Gas, Chemical Manufacturing, Medical Compliance, Human Resources, HR, Podcast
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[00:00:16] Sheldon Primus: Welcome to the Safety Consultant podcast. I'm your host, Sheldon Primus. This is the podcast where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. We talk about OSHA compliance, get you on record with some of the stuff that I believe in safety and health and how we could make our job better, make more sense for the people who have to follow our rules. Alright. Well, I will come on. Oh man. So how is everybody today? I hope you're doing well. Well, hey I’m coming to you with an episode that I did with a live streaming. I used to do a lot of live streaming and I kind of backed off because of scheduling and, and traveling quite honestly and being on the road all the time, sometimes I don't have the background and all the other stuff you need for a good uh show. So honestly, I have not uh been as consistent as I would like to be. And actually, it's been over a year. I feel like it's just so terrible even saying that. So, I am sorry. But I am getting the bug again. So just to, just to let you know, I'm starting to think about it. What that looks like is me actually going out there and uh honestly just, just really making it where I am going to do a episode live, me recording it, and you guys could see it on the Facebook group, you could see it on LinkedIn and I'll do the extended version on safetyconsultant.tv, so safetyconsultant.tv.
Alright. So, thank you to all the countries listening. So US, Finland, and this is in order. US Finland, Austria, Hong Kong, UK, Italy, Croatia and Hungry. So that's the top eight. That’s all I got on this chart actually. Thank you. That's awesome. You guys rock.
So what I have today is we're gonna be talking to Jim Poesl of Safety Wars. He's a fellow broadcaster as myself and podcaster and you'll hear both of us on safety FM. I have to give you guys a couple of disclaimers. One, is the audio quality is not up to where it normally is, uh I was literally in um an Airbnb uh when we're doing this uh episode and it was no kind of sound studio or anything, it was just loud and uh reverberating around this empty room, basically. It's one of the things I found about these Airbnbs, honestly, the room it's like some people are just trying to get the quick bucks, they're not spending the time to really make it home anymore. Anyway, that's my other like, please, you know, you wanna have people over, you might as well make it look kind of good, right? Please. So anyway, uh so the audio quality is you just bear with me on the audio quality, so I'll let you know that. However, the information though, we get really, really like uh in rapid fire sequence because it's not a long interview at all. But we started talking on the International Conference of climate change and different uh philosophies and guests that uh Jim had on his show regarding climate change. Uh We talked about uh the global financial crisis, uh a little bit about sovereign immunity and how uh the numbers that we're even looking at for data for injury and illnesses is skewed because there's hidden data. There's a whole bunch of people who aren't counted in the data for illness and injuries on OSHA's site and a few others. So we talked a little bit about that, uh talked somewhat about uh the general duty clause for the employer to take care of the employee, regardless of if there's a standard or not. Talked about some things happening where, you know, one of the thoughts that came out of not having um uh state OSHA plans, which would leave some workers not being counted for injuries and illnesses, it also leaves those workers unprotected. Uh So the only person that's watching them is their employer, not always a good thing to do. And I have a lot of cities and counties as my clients and I'll tell you it is not always pretty. So, um, that's why we, we got on that conversation. So I honestly would believe that if you are anyone who's, um, likes to hear both sides of the story as far as, um, making sure that, you know, each side keeps each other honest, um, Info Wars that you may have heard uh, in the past, uh, we've got our version of it called Safety Wars and that's uh hosted by Jim Poesl and he's gonna be coming on. So again, I apologize to quality, but the quantity and the, the information given is just great and, uh, when I come back after this, I'm gonna just wrap it up slightly, and then send you on your way. All right, listen to Jim and myself, uh, for those of you that's watching this on Safety FMTV, yes, he's literally at a baseball field. He does the play by play for his, uh, his son's baseball team. So I caught him um at the field. So, yeah, those of you on safetyconsultant.TV, you're seeing this interview and you can see even more hilarity in the background. Those of you that are listening, you'll be hearing the baseball field. So again, excuse the audio, but we got you with the good information. All right. So I'll see you back right after the interview.
[00:07:23] Sheldon Primus: All right. I am live with Jim Poesl of Safety Wars. I know I haven't done a live in like forever.
Jim Poesl: Well it's been too long, man. Too long.
Sheldon Primus: It has been too long. I really, really missed doing live and I've been talking about it with my wife for like a little while and like, I envy you Jim. I know when you get to your, your live show, you're, you're just loving it.
Jim Poesl: Oh, well, what it is, is I do better live than I do prerecorded. I do better live. And, uh, at least I think I do better live.
Sheldon Primus: It’s fun!
Jim Poesl: Well, what it is is it's usually a monologue. So I do have interviews and stuff. Some, I've had some very controversial figures on lately in the environmental movement. Uh, if you've been following, uh, or if not, and uh was one of them Taylor of the Heartland Institute and, uh, a couple of other folks. So, um
Sheldon Primus: I did not hear that. Um, fill me in, backstory.
Jim Poesl: So, uh, down in Orlando in February, they had the international conference on climate change. Um, and it was sponsored by the Heartland Institute out of Chicago. So I've known those guys for a long time from my political days back in another, another life. So when I heard that we were doing, uh safety wars, they said, uh, why don't you come down and do your show, right from the thing, do some interviews, what have you. So I ended up going down there and we did interviews and uh basically, uh we all forget that there's a different side of the debate for global climate change. And they do have some legitimate questions, legitimate criticisms, in my opinion. Uh Everyone knows where I go come down on this and that is that there is climate change going on, uh what the causes of it are and what the and everything else, the details are there, but it's primarily a land use issue. Uh in my opinion, at least. Because so for example, during the last ice age 80 of the New Jersey shoreline was around 80 to 90 miles out to sea, maybe 120 according to some people and it's gotten higher, climate has changed. We don't have any, you know, we don't have any uh uh didn't have cars, factories or emissions back then. So there's something else going on here. We had a couple of guests. One guest believes that the whole issue is geologic in nature. Uh Another guest felt that with the energy with electric cars has not been thought out or any of the electrical power grid going alternative fuels has not been thought out well enough. One of the points was according to him, at least uh that we have if we were going to go and create, put everybody on solar panels today, right? We replace all of our power with solar panels, you don't have enough stuff to last 15 years. So it's really not sustainable. So, the sustainability, uh, the sustainability issue, uh that's how the solution goes because that's, that's sustainable in that opinion. And we go into a little bit of that. I also had on a financial expert Murray Sabrin, Professor Emeritus from Ramapo College who, uh, complete disclosure, I used to work for him and he ended up, uh, you know, being on for an hour talking about the global financial crisis.
Sheldon Primus: So, and that's good, thought-provoking stuff.
Jim Poesl: Yeah. Well, what it is is, uh, the, uh, I'm sorry, I got totally thrown off here. Uh, what it is is what’s the safety work I was on with Ian from coast to coast AM. Uh, that's a syndicated show, 600 radio shows. I said 600 radio station, uh, free to six million listeners a week. Uh, and he had, uh, the, the house in Ohio, uh, train track a discussion on that back in February and he had some follow ups and what's the safety work? He asked me, what is the safety or? I didn't really have a good articulate answer. Safety work is essentially everything that is involves safety. It could be financial safety, it could be what we deal with industrial safety, environmental safety. Uh, you name it, uh, it, it is what it is on everything and they so, well, why do we call it a war right now. We have anywhere roughly 5000 people, give or take, every year. We have 2.8 million injuries a year, give or take. And we know that all these injuries and deaths are under reported, we know that, because they don't include self-employed people, uh
Sheldon Primus: They don't include the workers that are literally working with no state OSHA plans, so where's all those numbers?
Jim Poesl: Right, right
Sheldon Primus: They just disappear somewhere
Jim Poesl: They disappear. And we know when the states report things, just like with the uniform uh reporting that they have in the last 25, 30 years, uh international, I forget what it's called. But anyway, those statistics are all self-serving, right? They're, they're numbers but they're all self-serving. So, how exactly are they? Are they good? Are they bad? Are they this, I don't know, I don't know what they do with them. So that’s more fatalities than in uh, Afghanistan, that we fought on our side and a lot of the other wars. So this is a war.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah. Yup. And truly like um, you're, you're seeing like, uh the, the agencies that are going out there right now. Uh Like, uh right now OSHA is getting really, really strong on compliance enforcement. Uh You can look at that through their budget that they're getting really like there. So, uh you know, that, um there's some people that think that there might be war within, of like the federal OSHA and the employer, and I've seen some people try to escape, uh, that kind of, um, confrontation by not having workers, per se, but they're trying to 1099 everybody NEC.
Jim Poesl: Right.
Sheldon Primus: So that might be, you know, that, that whole thought process itself is honestly like, you're, uh, it's, it's like a, you, it's almost like a game, you know. Like it's like they're trying to gain, gain gamesmanship. I know that the terminology or reasons more and, uh, and, and in times honestly, I feel like that, especially with public servants that have no state OSHA plan. Someone's got to fight for those people.
Jim Poesl: Right. Well, what am I? We had this discussion before offline, uh with uh sovereign immunity. Big issue for me, sovereign immunity.
Sheldon Primus: Tell everybody what that means.
Jim Poesl: Well, it's basically where the government is not responsible for anything that they do. And on the health and safety end, and a lot of the environmental end, I don't think that that's right.
Sheldon Primus: There's a, um hold on, let me give them a little more context too. So with sovereign immunity, every company, every country or every state or every federal government, uh or even local government, they're called a sovereign. So at that point, um the taxpayers are paying to keep that sovereign established. And uh if you were to be a city worker and you now have an incident that maybe was fatal, uh at that case, now, your family can only sue that entity, that sovereign, for a certain dollar figure. So you have to, in the US, check your state
Jim Poesl: If they're allowed. Yeah. If they're allowed to even sue at all.
Sheldon Primus: That's true.
Jim Poesl: If they're even allowed to sue it all, depending on the situation. So, for example, um, a lot of these school shootings that are out there, my idea is to make public school teachers, have a purview of OSHA
Sheldon Primus: Absolutely.
Jim Poesl: Why? Now, why would that be? Well, at that point under the general duty clause and the school is not doing what it's supposed to with, uh, uh, security of that school. Now, you're gonna be treating it like a regular employer. Why aren't you doing? So, for example, you're a bodega owner from, it's a convenience store in New York City where you're, you're from, not my area
Sheldon Primus: Born and raised.
Jim Poesl: All right. I don't think they call them that anywhere else, right
Sheldon Primus: Yes
Jim Poesl: And, uh, and, uh, you have these, uh, Bodegas, they have security, they don't have security there. Now, all of a sudden the employer could be held liable under OSHA, under the General Duty Clause. Same thing with crowd control, uh, some large retailers were getting into that issue a couple of years ago. Uh, I mean, like 10 years ago. Things of that nature. We put these things under that uh jurisdiction, then they're forced to protect their, uh, uh, workers, uh, their teachers and on extension, everyone else is benefiting from this. The students and the contractors and everyone else that comes through here. A good example out, outside of the school violence, uh, issue is in colonial, Colonia, New Jersey, uh, my hometown. It's part of Woodbridge Township, where these high school was, uh, has a lot of contamination on the inside of it. Uh, PCBs and a whole bunch of other stuff. Well, guess what? They were dragging their feet and when they were notified of this, uh, uh, by accident it was just a weird, strange sort of circumstances. And, well, ok, well, we don't have to do anything there. Well, we're gonna drag our feet and people like me were like, look, why don't you give us a call? We could put together a system here. A plan of, well, no, we, no, no call backs and now they have egg on their face. And, you know, uh, I don't know. I mean, this is an indoor, I used to do indoor air quality consulting. Uh, a lot. I've got bad at it because there's a lot of fraud in the industry. I cannot, I'll be quite up there. I can't compete with it.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah. And, uh, truly if you even try, uh, you know, the, the profit margin for them is, you know, it's ridiculous because they're not operating as an honest business in the first place. Right? Uh, hey, let me go back to the.
Jim Poesl: Hold on, I'm still here.
Sheldon Primus: That’s awesome
Jim Poesl: I'm in the parking lot. All right. Hold on. Ok. I'll be right there. I'm sorry about that.
Sheldon Primus: We got the time! Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we knew that that was coming.
Jim Poesl: Uh, but, uh,
Sheldon Primus: No, that's actually
Jim Poesl: No, we're, we're start, I'm very happy with safety consultant TV. It's a great idea, uh, and everything. Uh, that's why I'm doing a lot of YouTube Live, Facebook live and we're gonna be expanding that on our channel and everything and that's how I, what's going on here with everything.
Sheldon Primus: That's great, man. And I, um man, I, I've been thinking a lot about uh some of the things that has been happening with, uh, with just safety as a general. It seems like we're, we're now uh post-pandemic or at least I, I know there's, it's always gonna be with us but uh,
Jim Poesl: Uh, not as of May 11.
Sheldon Primus: Oh yeah, that's true. There was a declaration. That's right. Uh So, uh so for, um let's say then for the declarations sake, post-pandemic, uh you know, it's been one of those things where in safety, uh there's been so many people now that their eyes are awakened as to us being that piece of the puzzle of the organization that uh all of a sudden they didn't have the workers that they needed because workers had to go away because of the safety issue. And now we, all of a sudden, had to shine, in those last few years. Uh there's been burnout, there's been, you know, people who with suicide rates going up. There's been uh you know, all kinds of things that safety consultant stress wise have been feeling. But then on the other side, we've actually seen more work coming, you know
Jim Poesl: Well, it's a, it depends on, depends on where you are in this whole situation. What I'm finding is, is that we've had to rebuild a lot of our reputation, because what do they expect, who do they expect to enforce all these pandemic restrictions? For example. Nat it's the safety professionals. All right.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah
Jim Poesl: And that cause you're, when you're removing someone's agency for doing something and doing something, or you're forcing them, quote unquote, to do something and there's gonna be push back, there's gonna be,
Sheldon Primus: Yeah
Jim Poesl: And I found that with the way that these companies are managing that a lot of them were not safety issues. This is not a, you could go back to my podcast, uh Safety Wars, right? A lot of this stuff is not a safety issue, this is a human resources issue here and they're treating it as a safety issue. Why? To push it off, oh the safety guys or the safety gal said to do X Y and Z. Well, OK, but they're giving us that policy to enforce.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah
Jim Poesl: And one of the things I said was, look, if you want me to enforce the policy, no problem. I have no problem. You're paying the bill, not an issue. All right, but you're going to have to give that to me in writing, just give it to me in writing. And, uh, some of the clients that I had would not give it to me in writing and some would, so on the ones that did give it to me in writing, I still have as clients. Uh, because when you get into a situation where if you're throwing people out of the facility, now you become liable for some. That's because all your fledgling safety consultants out there, uh, you know, you could open yourselves to some liability if you're getting rid of people without having a paper trail behind them. Uh, with that
Sheldon Primus: Always need a paper trail. And, uh, now it's best coming from, uh, like the frontline supervisor. Because honestly, if you're gonna start penalizing and having, uh, people think safety is the safety cop, then you're gonna lose them. So, uh, you could make, um, like a recommendation that, hey, this person needs
Jim Poesl: Right
Sheldon Primus: They, they need that they need to go or, or it may be something that you might end up seeing where, uh, you know, for, for our sake that, uh, we're gonna tell you what the behavior has been, once you see it again as a frontline supervisor, you need to take action.
Jim Poesl: Right
Sheldon Primus: And let the frontline supervisor do it, as opposed to safety.
Jim Poesl: Exactly. Exactly. So, uh, if you are, this is the other thing you can, if you're a consultant, you have to have somewhere in writing what you're doing. So I have in all my contracts, I do not have the authority to hire, fire or discipline someone until I get it in writing, from you.
Sheldon Primus: Nice
Jim Poesl: You have to do it. Because what happens? You, you, you end up in court, you end up wherever. I do not have the authority to do anything. The person who has the authority is the frontline supervisor, this person, HR, what have you.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah
Jim Poesl: When you're just reporting Now, if they give me that authority, it better be in writing and I'm gonna be very judicious about going out and using it. I've never ha,d in 30 plus years, I've only had a problem with 11 people. And I've worked with tens of thousands of people over the years. Because
Sheldon Primus: Eleven. That means they made an impression enough that you know the number
Jim Poesl: I know the number and it was nine at one job site.
Sheldon Primus: Oh, ok. That makes it a little bit easier to, to do the math
Jim Poesl: Yeah, it was nine at one job site. And it was, uh, you know, and again, you had to make recommendations. When you're doing an incident investigation, one of the questions is, you know, we use the uh Sam Kinnison uh line, right? You remember Sam Kinnison with the yellow?
Sheldon Primus: Oh yeah, oh yeah
Jim Poesl: How the bleep did you get this job? Right.
Sheldon Primus: Remember Jessica Han?
Jim Poesl: Yeah. So, you know, how did you get this job? All right. But no, you don't say that and that. But, you know, you want to inquire how the person came about the job, what their experiences are and everything else and often with the really big injuries and everything that I've had to investigate, uh, um, uh, that's been, uh, one of the issues. Nepotism, they hire people who aren't qualified who, uh, don't have, would never pass a criminal background check ever for anything. And, you know, uh, with that and, uh, you know, it's just a horrible situation.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know you've got a heartbreak and I had to make sure I keep you honest.
Jim Poesl: So you're gonna have to, for the audience here, he had my home phone number. He called up my wife and she answered the phone.
Sheldon Primus: Oh this is gonna be great.
Jim Poesl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheldon Primus: Alright, Jim Poesl, everybody
Jim Poesl: By the way, my wife just to let you know how she is, she told off Donald Trump right to his face.
Sheldon Primus: Oh wow, so she's hard core.
Jim Poesl: Hard core. Uh yeah, she did, she was doing an event for him and he did something that you don't do with my wife, ever. You know what that was?
Sheldon Primus: Not pay?
Jim Poesl: He was, he was late.
Sheldon Primus: Oh
Jim Poesl: You're talking to a woman that, when we were dating, I used to have to send her an itinerary as what we were gonna do.
Sheldon Primus: Wow.
Jim Poesl: Yeah, yeah
Sheldon Primus: Yeah. That's so much of a romance there. You can't, she's gotta know.
Jim Poesl: I don't know. She wants the itinerary what you're doing.
Sheldon Primus: That's great. Oh, everybody, this is Jim Poesl, safety war. You got us, both of us on safety FM so, thank you.
Jim Poesl: Absolutely, Sheldon. And, uh, you know, we'll, uh, I'm sure we'll have a more lengthy discussion in the future.
Sheldon Primus: Yeah, absolutely, man. Go, enjoy, go, uh, it looks like what is that? Go A’s? Angels?
Jim Poesl: Angels. Ok. This is a very rare hat in New York. You know, that
Sheldon Primus: Oh yeah, goodness yes
Jim Poesl: My son’s little league team
Sheldon Primus: Oh good
Jim Poesl: That doesn't, that doesn't happen. Uh uh No, on the east coast, I said to my, somebody where you got the, I said, when was the last time you saw one of these on the east coast? Never,
Sheldon Primus: Never. Yeah. Yeah, you can't do that. All right, Jim. Well, have a good rest of your day. Good catching up bud.
Jim Poesl: All right, buddy. Catch you later. Thanks.
[00:27:18] Sheldon Primus: Welcome back. So, I'm glad that you just stuck around so you could hear all that was being said, it was a nice uh just time getting to talk to Jim again. So, really enjoyed that one. So I hope you guys have got something from it.
Next week, what we're gonna do is, I'm gonna talk to you about five ways to have a safety side gig. You know, the side gigs, the stuff that you don't want your bosses to know, you kind of dip your toe into the safety and health, uh, consulting side and then if you're ready, you would have already kind of felt out how the waters would be, and when you're ready to go full time, it's not cold anymore. So that is what we're calling a side gig. So I'm gonna show you guys five ways to start a safety side gig right now, to help you with your business for long-term, later on. So thank you so much for just hanging out with me, and go get ‘em.
[00:28:38] Announcer: This episode has been powered by Safety FM. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast or broadcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within the past hour are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based on very limited and dated open-source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast or broadcast may be reproduced, stored within a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form, or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast or broadcast, Sheldon Primus.