This is the dear corner office podcast or workplace leaders learn why Black Latinx and indigenous women, Lee, and how to get them back. I'm your host, Michele Heyward you are because we have Florrie coming up. And as you're doing the poll, I want to start introducing you to Florrie as well. And so Florrie is the founder of a fantastic nonprofit. And one of the things I love about the work she's doing not only because it's in June is around gender equity, but it's around employers getting them ready for that work. And so Florrie is the founder and CEO of gender ideal is a nonprofit that uses data to shift the norms of workplace gender equity, and inclusion standards. Gender ideal equips businesses with improvement roadmaps and performance insights to advance their gender equity practices. Florrie was a senior international economist at the Overseas Private Investment Corporation in DC. She holds an MA in international relations from John Hopkins, Sai s, and a Bachelors of Arts from Colgate University. She currently lives in Brooklyn, with her husband and two children. I want to say Brooklyn in a different way. So I'm going to get him in the poll. I'm going to share the results Wyatt while we get Laurie to Florida to join us, so I get 40. And Laurie, hi. Hi. So everybody, before Florida starts, you can see the numbers, right? skill base hiring, that's where you're you're focused with skill base hire for it's like, somebody's look good. Some things I might have some questions about, she can tell what she needs to help some some of your organization's right now. responses. I do this, so the speakers understand who's in the audience where you currently are. And sometimes we may meet and or from some of the questions and sometimes maybe the speaker may dig in deeper from some of the responses. So we do this to get so you get the most out of these conversations. So Florida, thank you so much for being here. How are you doing?

Hi, good morning, or good afternoon. Now, I'm doing great. And I'm so excited to be having this conversation with you. I've been listening to all the speakers this morning. And there's so much rich, good content and conversation coming out of this. So yeah, I'm thrilled to be here.

Yes. So let's take a step back before we get into gender ideal. What were you doing in your career? What nonprofit equity work were you doing out in the world? Because you've done some stuff. So I will let you tell us how you got started.

Yep, yep. Yeah. So I started my career actually working in international development. And I was so lucky to do this. Because I was I was young, and I got to travel the world and go to far flung interesting places. But I wasn't there as a tourist I was there meeting with businesses and looking at the development and the economic impacts of those projects. And one of the things I was always struck by that I always kind of carried with me. You know, I would ask a whole bunch of questions about the impact of of these different companies and projects. And but invariably, I'd get to a question, I'd say, Well, do you offer paid maternity leave? And it didn't matter where I was in the world? If I was in a rack, if I was in the Democratic Republic of Congo? The answer was always, of course, we offer paid maternity leave, we offer six months paid or a year paid. And, of course, because we support families, like it was kind of almost crazy that I would even ask the question was how it was received? And I would always think, well, if I would say back to them, you know, in the United States, we don't have any such thing as paid family, or even paid maternity leave as a standard benefit. 

And they've kind of looked at me like, well, that's crazy. So anyways, I and I bring up that anecdote because I always stuck with me. And I always thought, gosh, yeah, we are really far behind on some of these very basic issues around, you know, equity and supporting women and families in the workplace. And so I did that for a bunch of years. And then I spent about a decade at the organization behind the B Corp movement. It's a nonprofit called B Lab. And there we were working with, again, businesses thinking about their impact their sustainability. And one of the things that I learned while I was at the lab was what we called Impact management where we were encouraging all companies not just So you know, be corpse, but regular businesses to use our tools to learn about where they have positive impact, and then to think about where there was opportunity to get better. And what was really fascinating in that role is it like 1000s of companies used our tools as a diagnostic. And then they would say, we'd say, Great. So now you have your you've got your, your baseline, how are you going to become more impact oriented? And what they really wanted from us was, will tell me how I'm doing relative to other companies like mine, and tell me based on where I am, what are those things I should be doing to improve? And I really carried that with me when I left the lab and when I launched gender ideal. So anyways, that's a little bit of anecdote or background on how I got to where I am today.

Well, I love that you started there, because my next question is, Okay, where did gender ideal come from? Because you're already doing this great work? Where did the concept and idea come from? And where are you today? What gender ideal? Yeah.

So when I left the lab, I was totally burned out. And you know, during the my time there, I got married, I had two young kids, a partner that also, you know, works really hard. And, and so when I left, I spent a lot of time thinking like, Why? Why did this feel so hard? Right? Because, in theory, right, I have all of the supports and structures, I am a proven, privileged white lady. And so like, what is going on that is not making this work. And I spent a lot of time reflecting on that, and having conversations and found myself kind of like increasingly researching this topic of gender in the workplace. And what I kind of distilled it down to is that there are like these three, more than three, but I distilled it into three things that are problematic in helping to advance gender equity in the workplace. 

And so those things are number one, when we talk about gender at work, we tend to like lean on these two metrics, women in senior leadership, women on corporate boards as like the the metrics that tell the whole story. And those are not two metrics to tell a whole story, they tell a little bit of a story for a certain subgroup of people who happen to reach, you know, the upper echelons of business, either by being in a C suite or being on a corporate board. So I, but and yeah, they're the most frequently referenced data points. And so I felt like, gosh, you can't really make progress if you don't even have the data and information to have a nuanced, more comprehensive conversation about the topic. So that was number one. Number two, the data that we have is also just data from large public companies. So these are, you know, big, you know, fortune 500 companies that are disclosing who's on their corporate board, who's in their C suite, maybe they're telling a little bit about a maternity leave policy or something like that. But like, it kind of ends there. And it's just that segment of the business community that even is sharing that data. And the reality is, you know, three fourths of the workforce does not work for large corporate companies, they work for small, medium sized businesses, they work for themselves, they work for nonprofits, they work for government. So again, we just don't even have the data to really know what it is that's happening, and then and how to how to how to how to advance it. And then the last thing, and this I had, I really kind of reflected on from my time at the lab was, that's what I feel like we have a great clear vision for what an ideal workplace should look like from a gender perspective. And when I talked to companies about work that they were doing on gender equity and inclusion, I kind of kept hearing the same thing over and over again, which is, yeah, we know, we need to do better on this topic. So you don't, you don't have to sell up people on this idea. But what they would say is, we hired a consultant, and we did an anti bias training, or we did this, we did that it felt really good at the time. But we don't know where this work is going. 

We don't know how we continue to advance and we don't know what success is ultimately going to look like. And so it was kind of those three factors that kind of drove me to say, Okay, well, what if we created that framework for what an ideal organization looks like? How they are scaffolding the organization from a structural perspective, from the policies and the processes and the benefits, you know, but really take a big picture lens. And then again, kind of leaning on my experience below. I thought, okay, so why don't we create that framework, and then encourage companies plug your data and provide that organizational level information. And once you've provided it to us, we'll share it back with you, but back to you with performance insights. So like with benchmarks against other companies that are the same size, they're in the same geography that are in the same industry to really cut To inspire that, like, you know, business is ultimately about competition, right and competitive advantage. So if you are underperforming, if you're lagging, wow, well, that's the information, listen to insights, you need to know that you have to catch up. And then also, those in everyone want to be best in class, that's how you're going to recruit talent. That's how you're gonna retain talent, which I know is the focus that we're talking about today. And so use that data to make sure you're the company in your industry that everyone wants to come and work for, and that they're going to stick around for a long time. So feeding into kind of that dimension is is kind of like core to how we engage and work with companies.

I love it. I love how you said, What is the ideal workplace like gender? I? Oh, no, it makes sense. It was so simple. It was right there.
Well, and it came from conversations with other women, women who don't have kids, women who are starting their careers are at the end of their careers. And they would all say, what if jet? You know what if workplaces did this, it it comes from this place of imagination and envisioning what we all want. And so then the question is, well, how do we get there?

Now, during this, you were talking about organizations looking at their data, and only looking at the top? Let's talk more about data? Because well, I'm an engineer, right? Tell us how using organizational level data, can it can advance gender equity in the workplace? Yeah,
yeah. So there are a couple examples I want to share. The the first two are kind of like macro level examples, right. And and there's, I make that distinction, because we do kind of like engaged with businesses through two lenses, right? One is like, based on where your company is, these are the specific things that your company should focus on improving in the next 12 months. But then the other thing is, we do aggregate the data, and we try to kind of pull out those trends to say broadly, here are ways that businesses in general can improve and can can outperform. So the first one I want to, and I'm looking down, because I'm kind of looking at this data in front of me, this was from a pilot that we ran in 2021, where we had about 30, companies take our assessment. And then we aggregated that data. 

And we looked at the trends. And I think it's really relevant to this conversation today. What we found is that 58% of the companies in our sample had already taken steps to eliminate or reduce gender bias through the recruitment process. So these were companies that were doing things like writing job descriptions, and then having either a software tool or a third party, evaluate the language being used to ensure that it wasn't, you know, you're not talking about a rockstar programmer, because data shows that is language that appeals to men, but you're using kind of unbiased language and your job descriptions. These are companies that are being explicit in advance about, you know, bringing in diverse slate of candidates, and then tracking that kind of information through the recruitment process, which I think was one of the questions in your earlier survey. And so again, we found a majority of businesses, and I should say these are, you know, these tended to be small, medium sized businesses that participated, but that they have already kind of begun to take that action as it relates to who they're hiring, who they're bringing into the organization. That's great news. That tells us, okay, this is becoming a norm, right. It's, it's a majority, it's common, it's pretty well defined. But where we found tremendous opportunity for improvement was around. Okay, great. Once you've made those hires, once you brought that diverse community of employees into your organization, what are you doing to make sure that you are reviewing them in an unbiased way, which, again, data shows, performance reviews and promotions, are where bias really surfaces, particularly around gender, but also around, you know, around race. And what we found from our sample poll was only 16% of organizations had had really done anything to start the process of determining how to run an unbiased performance review process, right. And so there, there are things that companies can can do. 

There's data that shows Okay, train managers on how to evaluate and recognize their own bias, right. I think, you know, let's assume positive intent. So bias doesn't necessarily have to come from explicit ill intention. Bias is kind of there in the subconscious. But if we can help people to understand oh my gosh, that's my bias showing up. Oh, that's my you know, that's my bias. As to want to advance people who went to the same college as me, I need to question that I need to check that, you know, but to train people on on that is one way that you can integrate or eliminate, I should say, bias into your performance review process. The second is doing 360 reviews, and having kind of a set a set list of questions that have been designed in a way to eliminate bias and having a group of both peers. And and and supervisors use that 360 review to evaluate people's another great way to have an unbiased performance review process. But again, you know, these are things that we know, and that are relatively simple, they do require some investment, but like, these are things we know that companies can do to keep that talent let's they've got them in the door. 

And very few companies are doing that. And so that is and actually the second dimension of that, as well was then we asked Do you track the data that shows? So let me back up for a second. The Lehman McKinsey survey which comes out every year, and they survey you know, 1000s of companies across corporate America, on their agenda practices, lean in identify identified back in 2019, that they call it the broken rung phenomenon, right, which is, hey, look, we've got women graduating at higher rates from college than men are. And at hot with higher rates from advanced graduate programs, higher rates than men, they're coming into the workforce at the same level with the same training. And at that very first promotion level, right, one year, two years out, where you start to promote people into management or supervisory roles. Women are drastically under promoted relative to men. So hey, it's actually relatively simple for an organization that, well, we don't want to be doing that. Why is this happening? What's the first thing you do to figure out if it's happening, you track the data, you track promotion rates, and you break it down by gender, and you should also be breaking it down by race. Um, fewer than that 16% of companies was doing that. So that's, again, a really basic example of ways that companies can put little systems in place to even identify where are these issues happening? Are they persisting internally to then understand, how do we fix that problem? So I use that, again, as an example of great, let's celebrate the fact that companies are being really thoughtful about their recruitment process. But now, we really need to elevate the fact that you've got to be doing a lot more about around retention and promotion, to to address these, you know, generational and systemic issues. Um, you know, another another example, I guess, I would, I would cite, again, more at the macro level, but it's just like progress on maternity leave. 

So I mentioned that anecdote at the beginning of, you know, being in countries that we like to call least developed countries that are socially far more progressive actually, than ours. You know, and I'll reflect I have a 10 year old and when I, when he was born, I got a 12 week paid maternity leave. Turns out two of those weeks actually, were my annual vacation. I didn't quite know that at the time. But nonetheless, I celebrated, because very few other people in my cohort, even got 12 weeks of paid maternity leave. Well, you know, what the great news is, this issue has actually gotten a lot of attention. And the data now shows that as a country, we've made a lot of progress in the last 10 years. So I think now it's 30 to 40% of American workers do have access to paid leave. But but there's a big but because the majority of hourly, part time, lower income jobs do not provide these kinds of core benefits. And so even though it's great that we've made progress, a lot of that progress has has kind of lived in like corporate America, white collar professional jobs. And so we need to keep pushing the business community. And there is a very compelling business case around talent, retention and recruitment. And the data is there, that these are norms that need to shift for all of America's workers. But then the very last thing that I would say is on that micro level, going back to that individual company that's like plugged their data in and, and is now thinking, Well, what do I do with this data on these insights, we generate custom sets of recommended actions for each company based on where they are. So it's not just a one size fits all solution. It's very much based on where you are today, here are four things that your company should do in the next 12 months. And then once the company has implemented those four things, we say, okay, great, come on back. And now we're gonna, you know, little, you know, bread crumbs. Now do these next four things within the next 12 months, but you can rest assured that you are making progress towards long term goal.

I love that I love how you bought in unbiased performance reviews, I was reading a report from Textio. And they were saying how the reviews for black women, especially black employees, was non actionable. And I was talking to women in the community. I said, Well, what did your manager say in there your review? And he was like, Was it anything you could take? You could take action on it was like no, I said, you need to go schedule upfront with your manager, and ask very specific questions as to what you need to be doing specifically to get a promotion. If he or she, they don't provide that, you need to find switch roles. So you get a better more supportive manager unforce, because this manager is, is not the one that's going to help you get a promotion, or you don't have to leave the organization. And so sometimes we have to have those conversations. And note, first, we have to know to have the conversations, what to say in the conversations to gauge whether or not who we're working for is in support of us, because we like Well, everybody gets performance, you know, Todd might have been told to go take this training class, perform at this level on a project to get a promotion, you're like, Well, you know, just keep working hard. You're doing a good job. That's not actionable.

No, and it's not, I mean, your advice is the right advice for that individual. But for us to ultimately, as a society make collective progress, we've got to change at the system's level, right? Because people need to everyone needs to know how to understand their own bias, and then how to eliminate it and to recognize and accept that we are imperfect. But in pursuit of being better. These are things that we all need to collectively change. Because otherwise it becomes like really whimsical and subjective. It's just Oh, I'm asking Joe, my boss, No, you shouldn't have to ask Joe. Joe should have gotten the training. And Joe and everyone else at Joe's level should already be very cognizant, familiar and able to talk about it, right.

I think the work is going to end up being done in several directions, I wish we could wait for it to be done through the orcs. And right now, the pay gap, especially black women has widened in 12 months. And so you have we have to do some additional work, at least to keep the negative the reverse widening of the pay gap for black women. So unfortunately, yeah, I absolutely agree organizations need to do the work. But unfortunately, they're not going to do it fast enough. Otherwise, we'll be working two full years to get the same pay as a white man earns in one. So yeah. So before I have another question, before we wrap up this, this always goes by way quicker. Can you share some examples of what this looks like in practice? We what this you know, like gender equity in the workplace really can really look like can you give an example of that?

Yeah. So I mean, again, it's not one size fits all the specifics for an individual company would would look really different. But it could be anything from you know, a company doing a pay equity assessment, right? I mean, you talked about the pay gap? Well, guess what, only about 40% of companies in the United States have conducted a pay gap, a pay equity assessment. And this is an area where just in the last couple of years, there's been a lot of advancement and progress in the tools that you can use and the data that's available so that even if you're a small company, there's a lot of good data that that would help you compare and know. Yes, we're paying up to an industry norm. And we've we don't have those inconsistencies internally. So you know, that could be one example of one and then you know, another and I think this is an area where there's still a lot of opportunity for kind of additional research and validation from researchers and academics. But, you know, one area that's really important is creating that inclusive culture. And so something that that we've been doing a lot of work actually with a great kind of partner organization called habitus Incorporated, but is in how to run inclusive meetings. So, you know, you get everyone in a room where you get them all online, how do you make sure that everyone's voice is heard, that it's not just dominant voices, that everyone feels like they can contribute equally. And again, there are some really interesting software developments on that front. But then there also are just some great kind of trainings that you can do with a group so that everyone is synched up and aligned on like, okay, cool. This is how we're gonna do meetings, so that we are creating a sense of inclusion for all of our calls. Colleagues, those are just kind of two specific examples of the kinds of recommendations that would come out of our assessment. But I would say like, like, really importantly, we kind of see our tool as like the diagnostic as like the first step, as companies are digging into this work. And then, really importantly, some of the folks that Christina and others who you've had on this call, like, once it's been acknowledged, oh, we need to pull apart our recruitment process, or, you know, we need to really invest in our mentorship and sponsorship programs, then you bring those experts in, and they're gonna help do the implementation and really make sure that it's done right. It's all of the right details. But you're, you're kind of prioritizing the right set of logical next steps and low hanging fruit based on your company's performance.
Thank you, thank you so much for that this has been really great. And before we get out of here, how can people connect with you?
Yeah, um, so our website is gender dash ideal.org. You can go there, you can email me directly, I'm sorry, at gender ideal, sorry, gender dash ideal.org. And I also just want to put a quick last plug in, we also have a new website we've just launched called Protect reproductive health, that org, which has a set of resources for businesses, to take the right steps to protect the reproductive health rights for all of their employees, especially their low low income employees. And so I'd encourage folks to check that out as well. But happy to stay in touch.
I appreciate it. And I'll drop in the link for the reproductive health rights. I'm pretty sure I have it from when we did LinkedIn, a couple a month or two ago, I forget with my throat. out, I'll be sure to share that in the chat for those of you that are interested. Florrie, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your expertise, the results that you've gotten through your organization, gender ideal, and I hope you have a great day.

Thank you. Thanks, Michelle. Take care everyone. Bye.

Bye. So everybody, be sure you go into the chat and click on the link to give your feedback on flurries talk doing phenomenal work at Tinder ideal. What does it look like to have a gender? The ideal gender equity workplace equitable workplace, what does that look like? I think sometimes we do so much work in this space. What does it really look like? I don't know, maybe I should. Talking to kids really brings about what it can look like we always go back for those of you that were around or watch the reruns of the Cosby Show. Many of us have that concept of what a diverse workplace will look like what the ideal workplace will look like, but it's still missing some people right? Who was maybe feel was divergent, right? Because he had he was dyslexic, or he had dyslexia. I don't ever try to tell somebody that they are they are the condition. But what does that really look like? So I'm really interested in dreaming about and really focusing what does that look like? And writing that down and talking to other people? Like how do they find how do they describe a gender ideal workplace? Don't forget to rate review and subscribe to the podcast. It helps me grow. Visit positive hire.co That's positive hire dot c o