Property Podcast
Everything You Need To Know About Joint Ventures
August 15, 2021
In this jam-packed, tell-all episode of property investory, we speak to foreign investor Salena Kulkarni. Kulkarni and Tyrone teach our listeners everything they need to know about joint ventures in Australia and America.
Kulkarni also unveils the secrets about investing in America that will change your preconceived notions about the international market forever. They also discuss the important things to remember about Joint ventures, and the red flags to look out for in a JV partner. All that and more on this episode of property Investory.

Timestamps:
00:00:55 | What is a joint venture ?
00:07:49 | Time is ticking away
00:10:59 | Short term vs long term deals
00:16:26 | Assuming the loan
00:26:57 | Tips and tricks
00:31:02 | Be careful who you work with
 
Resources and Links:

Transcript:

Salena Kulkarni:
[00:13:22] you can go in, and let's say this is a distressed homeowner who for whatever reason can't make their mortgage repayments, you can go in and assume the loan without dealing with the banks at all

**INTRO MUSIC** 

Tyrone Shum:
This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.
 
I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we talk to international investor and Amazon best-selling author from Freedom Warrior, Salena Kulkarni. Kulkarni enlightens us on joint ventures in the US and explains how you can use the bank's flexibility to your advantage. She also discusses how you can get into a development with very little money. 

**END INTRO MUSIC**

**START BACKGROUND MUSIC**

Tyrone Shum  
Kulkarni teaches us from her experience what you need to know about joint ventures in the United States.

Salena Kulkarni  
[00:00:27] for me, the word joint ventures is really about leveraging into networks and other people's skill sets, access to deal flow, just lots of different ways you can kind of describe joint ventures, but you know, in the space of alternative investing, it has a particular meaning for me.

Tyrone Shum    
[00:00:49] Okay, well, maybe let's sort of talk a little bit about that. What does that mean for you?

What is a joint venture ?

Salena Kulkarni  
[00:00:55] So I think joint ventures in the traditional sense, I think means just partnering in order to achieve an outcome in the context of alternative investing. Joint ventures for me is about how do I leverage the network, the skills, the access to deals in order to be a more passive armchair investor. So you know, to some degree, a lot of deals that you and I do could probably classify as JV’s. But when I talk about joint ventures in, in, in my world, the thing that distinguishes it from other kinds of deals is the ability to profit share. And I think that's, for me, that's probably the the minute point of difference.

Tyrone Shum   
[00:01:45] Yeah, yeah, I agree with you on that. And I think, you know, the more passive it is, from an investor's point of view, the better will be for all of us. Obviously, there'll be somebody who's in this kind of potentially joint venture partnership that would need to do the work. And I usually call them the working partner. And I've been a few of those. And then I've sort of been the money partner, where I've just brought the funds in and sort of teed up the legal side, and also putting all the accounts and everything together. But still, there will be some kind of agreement that comes into place. And joint ventures, I guess, from experience, they've come in different various stages, and also comes in that sort of various different levels. So you know, when I talk about different levels, I'm talking about the percentages of what you get, because everyone that comes in is going to bring in a different skill set, as you've alluded to, but also you will get a different sort of reward share and part of the deal. So what about your experience? What kind of joint ventures Have you been involved in? In the past?

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:02:38] Yeah, look, I'm happy to share some even most recent deals that I've done, I think the thing that you just touched on, which I think is really, you know, it's quite an interesting point is, I think, when people go into joint ventures, especially if you're new to joint ventures, you have no sense of what's fair and what's not. And so I think if you are going into a joint venture, I think the first thing is you want to make sure your, your capital is protected. That's obviously the first thing and that you have full faith in the person that you're doing the deal with. But I think the second part is, you know, as you said, like every deal is completely different in terms of profit share, and what level of protection you have, and so forth. So I, I do think, you know, if you are thinking of doing a joint venture, you know, having a little bit of context for what's normal in a particular space is really, really important. Because here's the thing, like what one of the things that we've talked about previously is like lending deals or you know, syndications or funds where your return can be capped at a certain rate. And, you know, that has to be palatable. But in a joint venture, what you're saying is, well, I want a rate of return that's going to be on par with how this deal pans out. So, you know, if the deal is a home run, you want to actually have a piece of that profit. So I think understanding what's normal for return is really important because otherwise you can go in there and feel like well, as the money partner, I want a big profit share or or as the you know, working partner, maybe you want a big share of the deals, I just think you really need to sort of have context for what's fair.

Tyrone Shum    
[00:04:29] How would you work that out though, that's that's the biggest challenge because even when I went into the my first few joint ventures, I didn't negotiate and you know, being the money partner, but at the end of the day, when you work out the the amount of work that's involved from say, for example, a working partner, it was fair in that instance to them have a larger pie because he is going to be doing a lot more of the work. But you know, how, how do we determine what's fair and what's not fair in these type of deals?

Salena Kulkarni  
[00:04:54] Yeah, look, that that is, I think the most interesting point of conversation around jayvees is What we're saying is, how do you decide if it's fair. And I'll give you an example, I have a really close friend who has, in recent years become a very successful developer. And initially, when he started out, lots of his friends wanted to jump in on deals with him. So effectively JV to some degree, and he was offering them a profitable, but fixed rate of return, and then making quite a lot of money in terms of the profit on the development itself. 

And, you know, he was doing all the work, he was obtaining all the finance he was, you know, these, these guys, were really just piggybacking his experience. And, and after doing a couple of those, he turned around and made the decision that he just wasn't going to take people's money, and he wasn't going to JV with people anymore. Because for the amount of headache for him, it wasn't worth the money. Yeah. So I think the thing to recognise is that, you know, I think in media, we give a lot of importance, or, you know, we shine the torch on people who, they're the money, so they have the power. And I think that's definitely true. If you're, if your JV partner, his capacity or her capacity to go ahead, depends on you putting the money in. And that way, you know, you've got a lot of power. But frankly, most people who are worth jiving with, that don't necessarily need your money, you know, and you're, you're really, you can't access those sorts of returns without them. So I think it's really about recognising who you're working with.

 And, you know, let's say, for example, you're working with someone super experienced, who gets access to killer deals, and there's just no way in your world you could access them, you're going to maybe trade a bit of return for safety. Whereas if you're going with someone who's less experienced, maybe greener in lots of different ways, but they're offering you a higher return, then, you know, you sort of adjusted your risk return there. And so therefore, maybe that makes more sense. So I think it's about looking at lots of different variables, but experience, you know, how much time is involved? What's your level of exposure? How much of an armchair experience are you going to have? And then looking at what's normal within industry? So for example, like some of the deals that that that I've seen that you do super lucrative, but who I think the question you got to ask yourself is, are you happy with that return as an investor? If you want to be greedy and say, Well, no, hang on, I want to share of the development profit as well, then people may or may not want to do business with you, I think is the upshot.

Time is ticking away

Tyrone Shum    
[00:07:49] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree with you on that side of things. And what I wanted to add as well, too, is, and I've experienced this, you know, it can be very easy to look at a deal and say, Well, you know, there's a lot of profit based on the paper. And, you know, it might say, Take 12 months or so. But if you're working with someone who may not be as experienced, the deal actually may take a lot longer, which ultimately eats into the profits. And I can tell you from experience, I've experienced that it's hard, because initially, when you look at it on paper, you've done all the numbers and everything stacks up, you know, I thought I would be earning an extra, say 100k, on top of the profits and stuff, but due to unforeseen circumstances, and also due to some some lack of experience from developer that I was working with. We basically the whole project extended for more than 12 months, then anticipated. And therefore at the end of it, we made no money at all and omit any profit. Luckily for the money partner, he still had funds. 

And because we agreed upon that, he'd still have his percentage cut and share. And that can mean the difference between a successful investment or successful development to a deal that you know, where you're working with experienced developer who has had the experience to get done on time. So you got to take that in, because, you know, sometimes you want that safety to know that, yep, you know, this guy is going to be able to deliver on time and also deliver a profit and supposed to have a profit then to have something that's delayed and experience a longer timeframe, and not even make money at the end of day that we're doing joint venture. And hence, that's a reason and the risk that people will need to consider when looking at doing joint ventures as well, too. So that's my two cents on that and the experience.

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:09:29] I think you raise a good point, I think people forget that, you know, saying so for example, like you're gonna get a 20% return on your money or 30% return on your money. The longer that drags out, the more diluted the effective return, because you could have been doing other deals. And so yeah, I do think, you know, timeline and capacity to stick with timeline matters.

Tyrone Shum    
[00:09:54] And also opportunity costs too, because as we've just kind of talked about if you're invested or you're you know A large chunk of your funds into this particular development expecting, say a 20% return in, say 12 months. But it turns out that it's going to take say 18 or 24 months, and you get maybe a 10% return, that opportunity costs or that extra, say 12 months that you've lost in there could have been reinvested those funds somewhere else that may have returned you, maybe a close to 10% return for, say, six months. And you do that over and over again. Hence, the reason why I look at opportunities and work out. And so you know, if I have to invest my money at this period of time, what is the potential opportunity cost that I might have to forego for another opportunity down the track? And sometimes it might be just better waiting, you know, for an extra three or four months to find the right one, then to you know, jump into something that looks really, really good on paper. But you don't know due to all these other factors? 

Salena Kulkarni   
Yeah, absolutely. 

Tyrone Shum
So, yeah, well, let's delve into maybe an example of your experience of saying joint venture that you've done in the past runs and sort of background behind, you know, what you've done? And some maybe some numbers behind it, too.

Short term vs long term deals 

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:10:59] Yeah, sure. Well, look, I think the first thing that I want to kind of distinguish between is in my world, there's what I call short term, JV deals. And then long term, funnily enough, they're actually a similar length. You know, short term is anything up to two years, and then long term is theoretically two years to five years. But on average, they all end up being around the two year mark. So the The major difference is how the deals get structured. So in the alternative space, predominantly, where I lean now is mainly towards US based jayvees. And that's because the the network that I have there, they're really good at these small JV deals.

 And the way that typically, the ones that I've probably done most in the last even say, 12 months have been the short term ones. So one that I did, February last year, I'll go back to feb because then it's come to fruition, I did a 12 month, short term joint venture. And the terms of the deal were, there was a particular house that my trusted advisor had acquired, I can give you the numbers, basically, they'd acquired it for 96,000. And it was in it was a beautiful house and a really great, great area. And basically the after repair value was 188,000. So huge margin for for sort of error there. In today's world, it was probably worth about 150, the loan that he was looking for was 19,900, which is tiny. And when you looked at the photos, really what they were doing was more of an update or cosmetic update, there was no major structural anything's it was just a bit of paint and updating some bits and pieces. 

And obviously in the states 20 grand goes a really, really long way compared to we're 20 in 20 grand, you will barely even get your bathroom. You know, and the interesting thing over there is how the deals come into play this, as I've said previously, like, there's so many different ways to acquire real estate that we just don't have over here. So for example, you can go in, and let's say this is a distressed homeowner who for whatever reason can't make their mortgage repayments, you can go in and assume the loan without dealing with the banks at all. So, you know, in terms of how did someone get a hold of a beautiful property like this at such a cheap rate? It's probably because they went in and assumed the mortgage. So the mortgage was 96,400. So they said, Well, I'll just assume that. And so that's how come they've acquired it for such a cheap rate. Basically, you know, with the loan to value ratio, with my money included the mortgage plus my money was only 60%. So as I said, like huge equity cushion, which I'm always like, that's all that matters to me. And the terms of the deal were. And this is where it why I call, particularly in the world that I'm in, I call them a hybrid deal. So that they're a joint venture, meaning I do get a taste of the profit, but it's hybrid because it's a lending deal as well. So it's a lending deal. So I'm going to get on my 20,000 I'm going to get 11% per annum for for the money. And then on top of that, I'm going to get a 10% profit share. Now the actual... I picked this deal out because it's um, it actually went full turn.

But so I made 11% interest and my profit share at 10% gave me an overall return of I think It was 22 point something percent. And typically, because obviously $20,000 is not crazy money, but you know, if I've got sort of five or six of those going at any one time, they average somewhere between, I'm going to say 18 to 27 28% per annum. And so what I love about these deals is, it's not like you got to have a tonne of money sitting around every time, you've just got a little chunk, you can throw it in, throw it in and, and get, you know, a pretty good a much better rate of return and a high degree of downside protection. And it's short. So let's say for example, I'm thinking that I'm going to do some other deal in 12 months.

I know the this particular deal maker has a plan ABCD in order to get me my money, it's not just it doesn't hinge on a refinance, it doesn't require sale, it's it's like there's multiple ways for them to get the money out. So I know that I'm going to have that money. And that allows me to plan for what other deals I'm going to do. The only thing I would say about the short term jayvees is you are in second position. So you're not in first the bank where the primary mortgage, they're in first position, and I'm in second, but again, because we've only got the total debt is only 60% of the value of the home today. I'm actually okay with that. 

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Tyrone Shum:
Coming up after the break, Kulkarni explains how much litigation would cost if a deal goes bad

Salena Kulkarni
[00:17:22] I actually perceive this to be a lower risk deal than even a traditional buy and hold in our market. 

Tyrone Shum:
She lets us in on the American investment secrets that the Australian banks don't provide 

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:22:09] States and in other nations, the banking system, the way that it has evolved, is much more entrepreneurial, it's much more flexible.

Tyrone Shum:
As well as her tips and tricks for investors looking into joint ventures 

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:28:05] And as the investor, your job is to have a set of rules for what you will and won't do, and then apply those rules to every deal.

Tyrone Shum:
And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

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Assuming the loan

Tyrone Shum    
Next, we discuss the consequences if a deal goes bad and the time frames and costs involved to recover the initial funds.

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:17:17] It's minimal. And this is why, you know, for various reasons, I actually perceive this to be a lower risk deal than even a traditional buy and hold in our market. Because the downside protection is phenomenal, the way the process around and different states are different. And so you need to be mindful of that. But the process of going in and taking possession of that property is very straightforward, doesn't cost very much. And I mean, I, in this instance, like, you know, the JV partner owns the deal, but I'll tell you, like the worst case scenario, from my perspective on this particular deal. And one of the reasons I like this particular JV partner, is he has a waiting list of ready buyers like a waiting list, because he there's so many moving parts to the model of this business and the strategy that he's like. 

And that's the thing like you got to work with someone who's an expert in one particular strategy as this guy's and so the process around acquiring properties like this requires a whole team of people in multiple states, the whole process of renovating, you know, whatever level requires the team of people, the whole process of selling or refinancing requires a whole team of people. So that's why there's no way in a million years. As a single investor, I could time effectively find the deals, find the people to buy it structure the deal for sale, it just isn't worth it. Whereas I go in and I say, Well, look. Let's say for example, on this one, I know I'm going to get my 11% as my interest payment. And that's usually because the property's cash flowing during like it's got a tenant and so I can see the numbers around that. And they will usually get give those to you as part of the due diligence pack. And you can see, okay, well, you're already collecting more than enough money to pay me so I'm happy. But that the biggest downside protection, I see where this is the worst case scenario, if it all turns to custard, I see you liking my food metaphors is that we'll just sell it to the next person on the waitlist at 80% of the property value. 

And that's the worst case scenario. So then I go Okay, well, let's say we did sell it at 80%. And typically, what we're trying to do with these deals is that the velocity of money and how quickly you can turn these deals over matters. So we're not trying to get top dollar. So this, this property in the open market might be worth let's say it's a couple of 100,000 but I don't want to wait around to put it on the you know, the real estate.com equivalent and what Wait for a buyer to come and get their finance. I like that he has a massive list of already vetted qualified buyers who are ready to go. And the reason they are so hot, and the list is so long, is because what we're trying to do with these deals is we're not trying to get market rate, we are trying to sell slightly below, so that we can sell fast and get the cash back and minimise the risk of that there's no chance in all of the deals that I've seen, they've never run over. They've never run over because Plan A is you sell it, you know, to the list, Plan B, you sell it in the open market Plan C, you continue to cash flow the property and you negotiate to take it over. Like there's so many different ways to skin the cat that I just feel that, that you know that that idea of having multiple exit really, really appeals to me.

Tyrone Shum    
[00:20:57] Definitely. And I agree with you on that side. I mean, I've learned from other developers that have multiple exit strategies, is your protection because otherwise, if you rely on just one exit strategy, and that doesn't go through what happens next is kind of get stuck. So it's so important to look at multiple and least having minimum two or three is so important. Because things can change the market can change developer might, you know, have some other things that may happen to them? You don't know. And that's the thing. I'm planning plan for the unplanned or planned for the worst case scenario, if things do really do go to custard as well. I do want to ask you a little bit more about this assumed mortgage, which I have never heard that term before. And listeners may be scratching their head before when you mentioned, what does that all mean? How did that work when you sort of assume

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:21:44] so in Australia, if you buy a piece of real estate, there's really only one way to transact it you you have to involve a conveyancer or solicitor, and we have to transfer title, if there is any lending required for the deal, the banks have to be involved. And they will vet you, they will vet your finances, they will look at the deal. And then I'll say yes or no. In the States and in other nations, the banking system, the way that it has evolved, is much more entrepreneurial, it's much more flexible. And so it just lends itself to lots of different ways of transacting property. So one of the questions that someone asked me once in a q&a was, well, you know, what is the days on market look like? Because that's a metric that we go to often in our market. And it's a relevant metric, because there's only one channel that people can, you know, transact real estate. And so it means there's something over there the concept of days on market, it doesn't actually mean much, because you don't know exactly how many properties are getting moved and transacted through other channels. There's, you know, you can assume a mortgage, you can quit title, a deed to someone else, meaning you just give the deed, you can do tax liens, which means that, say, for example, your rates haven't been paid, the Council have the right to swoop in, take the property off you and then sell it for peanuts cents in the dollar. So there's so many different ways to transact real estate that I know we're deviating now massively from our JV topic, but it's, it just makes if you've got an entrepreneurial mind, that's why we all scratch our heads when we think of people like Donald Trump, because we go, you know, how does a guy like that end up so wealthy, and it's because the way to do deals in the states literally means you don't need any money. There are ways to transact real estate. So if you look at the JV deal, I just gave you, the JV partner has gone in, assumed the mortgage, and then put it together with my money to do some cosmetic tart up in the kitchen. And then it's gone up massively in value, or it's, it's worth a lot already.

And like, I don’t have to do anything for that. And he didn't even put any money into the deal. So he's, he's made money from something he's gonna give me a 10% profit share, and he's gonna make 90% of whatever profits left. But seriously for the work done. Is it worth it to me to earn whatever let's say I earned 18% on that deal. Absolutely. I don't have to do anything. Yeah. So I think that's the question I'm always asking myself is, I can see sometimes in the JV deals that I do that my JV partners making a lot of money. But the question that I keep coming back to is, is am I happy? For the risk that I'm taking and for the time it took me to vet the deal? Am I happy with my return like to route to run my eye threw over that deal. I looked up some comparable sales, I looked up that you know, that what's happening in that market, I looked at different aspects of the contract, and I went, yep, looks great, probably took me 30 minutes. And I've made, you know, a few 1000 bucks, you know, the loan was only 20 grand. So it's not, you know, I can't retire off that one deal. I like a couple of things. The reason, there's a couple of things I like about the deal, number one, I get paid every month, you know, I'm not waiting till the end of the deal to see the money. And number two, you know, I'm happy with my 10% profit share. And so that, and I probably should give you an example of a longer term deal, because, you know, long term JV deal, they sort of look the same. But the major difference is, I'm in first position. So what we've done is we've gone and acquired a property that's massively under market now whether we assume the mortgage or bought it through some other channel, it's a distress sale of some sort. So let's say for example, I put 45,000 in to acquire the asset. And the goal is somewhere between two to three years, maybe four years, I think the deal, the contract terms is 60 months. But I'm going to get I think the it was 8% interest, as so there's that there's the lending component, which is, you know, I'm getting 8%, I'm first in line on the mortgage, so I am the bank. But the super sexy thing about this deal was I get 45% of the profit. Yeah. So. And that's why, you know, I do say the way that deals are structured and how you go about doing them, there's like millions of permutations. And so, you know, don't hold this up as the benchmark for how all deals should be. It's, it's every deal is different, as we said, and it's really about saying, Well, what feels fair and equitable for you?

Tips and Tricks 

Tyrone Shum   
[00:26:57] And are you able to, sort of maybe give tips or sort of strategies around how to determine what's going to be fair value for different parties. So let's say for example, take a simple joint venture with two partners. One is maybe the money partner who brings in the money to fund the deal. And then the other one's the, the joint venture partner, who does the met this column working partner who does the finding of the deal, actually does whatever they need to do, whether it be developing and subdividing and renovating the property, whatever, to be able to generate that profit. If it's just two simple partners, what would you do in that conference? Or what would you recommend in those conversations that they have? To better determine, you know, what's fair and equitable? You know, we're not going to put a percentage specifically around this, but what things that they need to be aware of that they need to consider when putting together a joint venture deal?

Salena Kulkarni  
[00:27:47] Well, first off, I think it's very unlikely that an average Joe investor is going to be the person putting the deal together. What I think is what I said earlier, the more experienced the JV partner, the less flexible, they're probably going to be about what the terms of the deal are. And as the investor, your job is to have a set of rules for what you will and won't do, and then apply those rules to every deal. So in this case, you know, if you're someone that just says, Well, look, I like the deal. I like the strategy, I like where we are in the market, I like the downside protection, but I don't like that I only get 10% profit. This, this partner will probably just go Okay. Next,

Tyrone Shum   
[00:28:31] move on to the next one. Yeah,

Salena Kulkarni  
[00:28:33] they've got a ready. In fact, you know, the better quality the JV partner, the less they need your money. You know, they have waiting lists of investors and you know, come on, like, I go, like, you get 2% in the bank right now. And you they're offering you somewhere between, let's say 15 to 20. On a short term deal for a small amount of money, in, I think to quibble about well I'm only getting 10% profit share would be foolish. So I think it's about using some common sense if you're working, like the more inexperienced you are as an investor, the more important it is you find experienced JV partners, the more experienced you are as an investor, maybe your capacity to discern good deals from bad deal is better. So maybe you would, if you found the right person who had less experience, maybe you'd take a punt on them, but you'd expect a bigger profit share. But I think in either scenario, what you're really trying to do is mitigate risk. You know, you're more experienced, they're less experienced, but you get paid accordingly. So I think I'm not sure if that answers the question. 

Tyrone Shum    
[00:29:52] it's good. It's good. I mean, that's just some factors for people to actually think about, you know, from an investing point of view. And also to I probably want to add as well is how much work would you need to put in, if you're an investor, we say, you know, as the money partner going to deal, would you be expected to do any more work than just investing the money, and if you are, then you would obviously want to have a little bit more profit share or percentage of, you know, the deal as well to, you know, just want to experience if I didn't need to do any more of that accounting work, or manage expectations of another investor, etc, I would have been, I would just put my money in just passively without having to do too much and just get updates on a monthly basis. Yeah, I would have expected less in the deal but because I was doing a little bit of extra work in there, and I was quite in depth in involve, I said to him, you know, I'm going to be done. This is why I would expect I'd have a lot more. And that's where you got to present your case as well, you know, as an investor, because you've got to sell yourself, you know, it's not as easy as just walk in and say, I'm gonna give you x y&z and that's it, and I'm done, I'm going to walk away, and you told me back in 12 months, you return my money, it's not as simple as that you still have to negotiate, you have to sell yourself and state the reasons and put a case for it. To why so

Be careful who you work with 

Salena Kulkarni   
[00:31:02] that's such a good point. That is such a good point, like, and I just want to add to that, you know, don't go into a JV deal, unless you feel experienced enough to ride the roller coaster. Because depending on it, you know, there may be it may be very smooth sailing, and it may not be. But if you prove to be a pain in the butt as an investor, during the course of the deal, do you think that JV partner will ever want to work with you again. So one of the things I'm very mindful of, and even with guys in the programme is before I introduce them to someone, I'm like, you make sure that you've dotted all your i's and crossed all your T's and you've asked every niggly question you've got before you participate. Because you know what? No, one of the great things I, I see, and I hear from friends who are very successful in whatever niche that they're in, is, the worst thing possible is dealing with a pain in the butt, high maintenance investor. And the friend that I mentioned earlier, who's become quite a successful developer, he's just stopped because he just doesn't want to deal with the emotional, I guess, feedback that comes from working with investors.

Tyrone Shum   
[00:32:18] Yeah, and that's so true. And hence the reason why, you know, if you're going into any type of deal, as maybe a developer or as an investor, and if you know, you ever work with me, we also do what we call some personality profile questions and testing as well to just to check to see because we want to make sure we're dealing with people who understands and has invested before, you know, this is not for a newbie, you know, who's just starting out, you know, if you want to go in that path, then I highly recommend, yeah, taking some education, and you know, perhaps even looking at some means programme and so forth like that. But that's the thing you need to also be aware as an investor of what you you know, you're capable of and if you're able to sleep at night by letting someone else invest your money, you can't be calling them every weekend, say, you know, what's happening what's happening. Tell me I'm worried ya ya ya ya. Yeah, it's got to be an investment in our passive but at the same time, sell the reason why you've got to be part of that joint venture if you decide to go into it.

**OUTRO**

Thank you to Salena Kulkarni from Freedom Warriors on this special episode of Property Investory.