Michele:
Welcome, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me today. It is another dei Thursday, but it is very special in several ways. Number one, number one, we have Mr. John Graham with us today. And I love John, let me say, first of all, he he calls me sister Heyward. Yes. But this is also the kickoff to open spaces system. Hey, sorry about that. This is the kickoff for the virtual Summit, equitable workplace creating the future of work. We always talk about future work being technology base. But to me, the future work is already here, and it's about equity. And we're starting off with John because he has written this fantastic book called plantation theory. Now, I will tell you all a secret that I can tell John yet. He knows I'm from South Carolina, I'm sitting in South Carolina, in a subdivision that starts with the word plantation. I want you to imagine that. So welcome to America. We all get into this really good and the next 30 minutes? Because I want to first have you introduce yourself to everybody that's watching and listening today.
John:
Absolutely. Well, Michelle, it's a pleasure to be with you. I'm happy to to be discussing such an important topic. I currently am the Vice President of Global employer brand diversity and culture for shaker recruitment, marketing, full service recruitment marketing agency that helps we help our clients build diverse and inclusive employer brands to attract, engage and retain the world's multicultural workforce, but also ensuring that the marketing actually matches reality so that companies aren't selling a false narrative and unintended ly driving up attrition rates, the work that I do is steeped in lived experience. So my contribution to moving dei to 3.0 status is working backwards from the lived experiences of the most marginalized talent in organizations, and helping, you know, consulting as a thought partner to chief diversity officers chief, a chief HR officers, chief talent, and people officers to tailor their strategies to address those needs of those most marginal in a way that that you can then stand on as an employer and employer brand. So I'm also the author of, as you said, plantation theory, the black professional struggle between freedom and security, which I know we'll talk a little bit more about today, but yes, happy to be with you.
Michele:
Glad you're here. Okay. What you kind of tell what the book is about with the title. And let's let's get into the title of the book plantation theory, the black professional struggle between freedom and security. What? What does that mean?
John:
Yeah, yeah, so I mean, plantation theory on its own right. A jarring headline, people don't necessarily associate their daily corporate jobs or professional jobs with a plantation. But what I've seen, not only throughout my career, but more so glaringly in the last 18 or 19 months is the struggle between freedom and security, meaning black folks being so being highly credentialed, super capable, outperforming based on work output, having brilliant ideas and the capability to do more than what their job titles showcase. But not being given the opportunity not being valued, not treated fairly or equitably in their organizations. And so it poses the question, Well, why don't you just leave, right? Go build your own start your own? Well, the notion of freedom. This is super scary, right? We weren't necessarily taught how to be free. And what I weave in and out of the book is the historical connections between the why and the what, and then starting to talk about how but yeah, freedom is a scary thing for those who are never taught to be free. And so we default to security.  We go to what we know the job security, get a good job stay with an indoor and we attribute That or connect that to like staying in an abusive relationship. So this is that struggle wanting to do more wanting to be free, but yet competing with the necessity and the urgency of security.

Michele:
So as, as we talk about the corporate struggle for black people, have you found that where we are in dei employers are still surprised about the experiences that black employees are experiencing in their workplaces?

John:
Yeah, I'll say an aggregate, no. But when it gets down to their specific organization, there are I see a lot of clients who are like, surprised or shocked by some of the things that we uncovered through our approach. And that's, I think that speaks to a bigger a bigger challenge of the power dominant group not being exposed to the lived experiences of marginalized people because they don't have to be, right. They they live in largely homogenous communities, their networks are largely homogenous, their entertainment, their religious experiences, sports, all of these things, right. Don't lend themselves to the experiences of those that don't look like them. And so when you see that uncovered in an organization where they believe, is doing well in some of these areas, while you start to realize they never stopped to ask better questions, and really examine what the lived experience is,

Michele:
are they also tracking maybe more metrics and numbers to a degree than they are actual incidences? are recurring patterns in your organization's certain metrics?

John:
Right. So depending on where an organization is in their maturity, right, and Dei, you have metrics in place, a lot of times they're representation based? are we increasing diverse talent? Numbers over time? You know, you're starting to see companies look at tracking the reduction of attrition, right? Are we maintaining or retaining the talent we have? What I'm not seeing is those exit interview data points, those Employee Relations complaint data points being used actively as a metric that's driving strategy. They know of that that data? They're aware of it? Is it incorporated into their public or transparent or widely socialized strategies? I'm not saying that.
Michele:
They're very interesting. So let's go back to the actual lived experience of black black people in corporate America. And let's talk about that for a bit what are some of the recurring incidents or behaviors or things they're encountering that that surprise or surprise employers that are going are continuous? In your organization?

John:
Yeah, great question. I mean, I highlight a bunch of these in the book. But I think in general, let me let me start with a higher framework here. So if we were to say in the last 18 or 19 months, if you look at most of the companies that have put out commitment, statements of change, allocated resource headcount, dollars to organizations, built relationships with HBCUs, all of these activities that they've embarked on, if you were to ask black folks at those same companies, have they seen a change in their daily lived experience? The answer is still resoundingly No. So what haven't they seen a change and they still find themselves the only ones in meetings that look like them. There may have been some incremental change in leadership, elevating a few folks in non p&l responsible roles, right, so supportive, or administrative roles. The daily slights, the micro aggressive management, that the emails with, you know, micro aggressive or macro aggressive tones, you know, being excluded from meetings that they should be not getting the performance review outcomes, that that would be commensurate with their work outputs. So these are the things that are still going on. If we think about representation, authenticity and development being the three major things that we track in our lived experience based approach. Well, we're still not meeting the mark on all of these, right? So you're not seeing the representation in leadership levels or board levels. You're still not being a you're still finding that it's hard to be your authentic self without repercussion, right. Code Switching the Reducing of the reduction of threat perception amongst power dominant culture suppressing ethnicity changing hairstyle like all of these things are still a daily reality. And then development opportunities are still scarce right, not not having a clear path forward for career development, not being given insider information or valuable information through access to informal networks, right, where most critical information on success norms, the unspoken or unwritten rules of advancement and leadership culture are translated or transmitted. So these are the things that still aren't being done, that we have opportunity to, to address.

Michele:
I absolutely agree at I remember years ago, talking to an engineer, who was working on a very specialized project, only one in his department, working with a whole other teams, very special, young black guy. And the organization was bringing in training and what he was doing on this particular project, he did not get invited to train and he even asked to attend. And he was like, Oh, you don't need to go. But he was the only one in his group in his function that was actually doing the work. And he ended up taking the opportunity, repositioning himself, right with that experience that was so unique with his skill set, and found another employer. Well, guess what? Now all of a sudden, his bosses approaching him to stay lightweight. When I asked for this, you told me I didn't need it. And it's really interesting how you point out, you don't provide me the opportunity. That's the training I need, right? Because now you're no longer pet. Right? Now your competition? Yeah, you're, you're no longer pet, you're a threat. And we see this often. And and one of the things one of the things we do with positive hire, specifically is train women with different skill sets. non technical skill says they have the technical ability. It's like how do you maneuver in these spaces, and literally taking a one hour webinar, like 4060 minutes, 75 minutes, and they're able to reposition themselves right things differently, and get a promotion of a new job. But nobody's teaching them this or given them that training. And sometimes we don't know what to ask, sometimes you are asking and being told no. And they are begging you to stay. And so it's really interesting that you bring that up, because the first thing I ever did with this organization was provide training, and to train and how I knew to provide this training, there was an older white woman when I lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma, she said, this advance your career. This is what and I went to the executive training program, I had to fight to get the money, right? story, but nobody had told me this, oh, you need a mentor. That's what they tell you. Nobody tells you about these other things. And so I'm glad you brought that up. And just for those of you who don't know, if you're especially in a large organization, they have 1000s of dollars available, usually to you for Training and Development, you don't know what to ask for. You're probably even paying out of your pocket for your own career coach, or training programs, certificate programs, and they love that. And I literally had somebody in my community. She's like, Michelle, I want to get this. And I went and asked my boss for it. I said, who you know, at HR. She like the person I know, let's say reach out to that person. And let's see who else she's up to HR. So she found somebody else and they covered it. They like, oh, yeah, we have money left in the budget. Her boss is. So you have it's how do you maneuver it? So I love that. So so. Go ahead, John.
John:
I'm sorry, I was gonna say you brought up several phenomenal points. Number one, we aren't taught the norms of corporate culture and the language required to be in leadership. There's a reason for that, whether it's proximity and access, growing up, education. These are things that aren't taught expressly right until you get to these executive leadership courses, which is interesting, where they fashion you to reflect the image of leadership. And what we know is the default image of leadership that cisgendered able bodied white men. That's one. Secondly, when we talk about this implantation theory, our ability to reflect whiteness is a determinant of access and proximity. And I say that because people, right there's a reason why you don't see many non white male and even white female, in this case in executive leadership roles and because they don't view you as leadership based on it's not even on your work outputs, it's your ability to, to speak the language right to understand the norms, at an intuitive level to be able to navigate the politics, the positioning, the jockeying, right, all of these things that are required at that at that level. And so why would they elevate those who are working twice as hard for half the pay into a position as an equal? That's, these are the tougher conversations that we have to have about diversity, equity and inclusion? Are we really addressing these undercurrents of cultural disconnect in these Grand Canyon esque divides between us in terms of racial realities? And this, this goes down to language, this comes down to cultural norms and nuances that are largely on top. So
Michele:
absolutely agree. And I know, I don't want to tell them what's in the book, The Show gotta go read the book. So I knew some of my examples. So you can go read the book, The Secret just?
Yes, please do.
John:
So one thing that I want to talk about, and you, you know, we hang out on some other platforms and have discussions, and I shared a 32nd clip last night on on on LinkedIn, and I did on the ground. And I think we were probably surprised, like, where she get this from?
Clips are real.
Michele:
But I knew that because I knew this cop was coming like, Oh, this is juicy right here. Okay. Let's talk about that accountability for diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives and goals. Right? What is this accountability? who is accountable? Who should be accountable?
John:
Well, I think we first have to define what accountability means. Right? We have a shared assumption of what accountability means. If I were to say, Michelle, I want you to be accountable for this, that comes a lot that resonates with you very differently, right, then it would for maybe somebody outside of our racial reality. So accountability can mean fully standing in ownership of the success and the failure and admission of guilt or wrongdoing or, right. That's what we perceive as accountable. That's not necessarily what accountability means in other cultures. So let's, let's let's look at it from a different lens. What if accountability means simply, who's responsible for leading or guiding this program? Who is going to measure the success of this program? What are the outcomes that we've all agreed on? Okay, cool. But nowhere in that accountability definition is a consequence mechanism for if it fails. And without, we don't have enough time to get into the underpinnings of what I'm talking about. But culturally and across racial realities, the way that language is transmitted, and consumed, can mean the difference in outcome. And so we have to be clear and aligned on what we mean by accountability. And when we think accountability, we're like, Well, who gets fired? If this doesn't work out? Right? What is the consequence for a mid level manager who's not embracing and advancing the approach to inclusive culture building? What happens if you're bringing diverse slates to hiring managers with diverse panels, and they're still not choosing diverse talent, even though they're more qualified? What happens if those are the accountability conversations that we have yet to get to? But there's also the other side of that, and that's incentive, right. So who gets rewarded, if these goals are met, these metrics are attained and so forth, starting to see a little bit of that introduced to tying it to Performance Review Bonuses at executive level leadership, cool. I daresay it provides or creates perverse incentive, though, because you'll, you'll work towards the number, not necessarily to improvement of the lived experience or removing the toxicity that's driving these negative experiences. So yeah, accountability has to first be defined.
Michele:
I love it. I love it. And I like that that last part, where you're talking about who's incentivize, and it's like, it's interesting. How often do we incentivize kids are doing their homework or cleaning their rooms? Or maybe people just don't? I don't know. I don't go in everybody's house. Right.
John:
I know, we had consequences for not doing that. I don't know about incentives. That's relatively new.
Michele:
I mean, you get to live here. I'm just according to my parents, so that's right.
John:
Do you like like heat, electricity, all of those things? Yeah. That's your incentive. But that's the point right? So we know human behaviors is altered by K carrot or stick right incentive or consequences is not new. So it's, it's, it's interesting to me that these known human caught on human behavior, social psychological behaviors are applied to our, to our change, change strategies and organizations. It's interesting.
Michele:
It really is. I remember hearing the incentive side at a Black Enterprise. It might have been it was a tech conference, it was in the bay, this was probably 2016. I don't remember which, which fortune 500 It was like, you get incentivized for doing what's right. Wait, I thought that was just? Yeah, I thought it was just your salary. Okay. Maybe that's just the show up fee. That's, that's just what what you charge them to show up at a job?
John:
And who defines what's right, right. It's subjective. It is,
Michele:
it really, really is. And I think there are ways to define what's right. And who, who can help define it, as you said, are marginalized employees marginalized people, and if they're not defining what is acceptable in the workplace, but you also can't lean into them to, to go through and build out everything. But they definitely did have a good portion of the statement as to what is right, and what that what accountability also looks like, as well. And I would love to see stakeholders in organizations, have a have another say before, executive side as to who's accountable and at what level? Because they always say, well, the stakeholders need this bed. Let the stakeholders speak. Right? And see what they have to say and what they're going to point towards as to what it who's to be held accountable, and what those those goals should look like. So let's, so I like, Yeah, you did everything. Now we need to push stuff back up. Because, yeah,
John:
well, you can't you can't define an outcome for somebody without ever incorporating or including their lived experience in the conversation. And that's largely what we've seen happen as the DEI initiatives are initiated at the top of the organization, typically by those most entitled privileged and status, done research and brought in data to inform hired Chief Diversity Officer cool. But when we actually talk about what are those daily lived experiences that never enters the conversation, so what you end up getting is a strategy that is designed to cover all right, when I asked one of the most critical questions in any client interface around EI is who are the intended beneficiaries of your work? And you'd be surprised how often that question doesn't get asked? Because their answer would be everybody. But I'm like, everybody's now marginalized. So if we're creating solutions for everybody, who are we actually creating solutions for? Nobody. And so now we have to ask ourselves, are we committed to solutions? Are we committed to activity? I need to know upfront, just so I don't have expectations, that that shouldn't be placed there. Right, and that your employee base doesn't have the wrong expectations either. Absolutely. So
Michele:
yeah, really. And you know, I'm an engineer. So I like the, the research and the data. But sometimes the data is wrong. The benchmarking you're utilizing is if you look at Tech, all of them doing poorly. So why are you going to? Well, they have 1.2% Black employees, we have 1.5. Why else? But but the area you live in is 13%. Let's really talk about why only tech companies are the only ones that can keep up. So it's a pipeline problem. Let's look, have you looked at your exit interviews, going back to what you're saying? Sometimes the data is so flawed and has so many biases built in, you cannot utilize it, you're gonna have to go out and find benchmarks to go.

John:
So that's exactly right, exactly. Right. One of the things I do in the book, in the last chapter is I pose a series of questions, checklists, checklists, questions for executives, but also questions for recruiters in this effort to encourage better questions. And you'd be surprised on what kind of response I get from those questions in that book, right. Like how many people are like I never would have thought to ask these actions. And we're talking about, you know, white men, we're talking about Asian Latin x, we're talking about black folks. Right? Who never would have thought to ask some of these questions. But to your point, the data is only reflect right when they say, garbage in garbage out, right? So if you're not asking the right questions, and then your output isn't getting, you're eliciting the results you're looking for? Well, then you have to question your questions. Question, the questions that look at your survey instruments, what are you? What are you actually trying to solve for? And are the tools that you're using the right tools to address or get at that information? So, you know, Tech has done. We've seen companies do Herculean efforts in very little time when it comes to threats to their business function. It's not a capability question at all anymore. We're at a willingness stage, what are you willing to do? If you're only interested in the bare minimum to stay in legal compliance? Okay, well, that's what we've seen for the last 57 years. But at this point, candidates see through it, existing employee see through it, the attrition rates are spiking right now, especially across black talent pools. And the questions that are being asked at the recruitment stage, they're opting out, because they're seeing the signals at first, first point of contact, that this isn't a place where I'm going to be valued, just based on the cultural competency or cultural intelligence levels of recruiters. So we've got some work to do beyond just the activity commitments and looking at real solutions that actually benefit those who are intending to benefit.
Michele:
gone absolutely, absolutely agree. So for those of you who are interested in John's book, so John, one question I have, because because it's about me, right, this book is about me. So I have the book, it's autographed, I got my an autograph. Book really for like, who is because you said is a list of questions. People who is this book really for?
John:
You know, it's interesting, my, my editor asked me that to AMA publisher, and they were like, you know, who's your target audience. And I said, I didn't want to write it specifically for one audience. But here's, here are the few. It's for the black HBCU students, freshman level or senior level thinking about what major they're going to choose or what career path they're about to embark on. It's to give them the the crystal ball to lay out the road ahead of them as they're going to experience that nobody's telling them in their coursework. It's to give them the talk that we didn't get before we entered corporate to know what we were going to experience on a daily basis. It's to help them to ask or at least evaluate the relationship of a corporate job differently than the premise we've been sold historically, right? Go to school, get your degree, get a good job, or 30 years retire and die. You have more access to information and network than anyone in the history of human civilization at this point, so you can make better decisions. Conversely, it's for the pedigreed B school student who is going to be tapped as the next titan of industry, to give them a perspective that they've never had based on proximity, environment, exposure. It's to help them lead differently to be an inclusive leader, not just in statement, but also in action, is to ask yourself better questions to arrive at better solutions that ultimately lead to better business outcomes. And for everyone in between. So that's who it was written for. It's also and lastly, I'll say it's written to tell our story as black professionals in a way that hadn't been told before and saying all of the things that we wanted to say, but we're afraid to for fear of risking security.
Michele:
Absolutely. I want for every, every black person who's being asked in the workplace to retell their trauma, to direct people, to direct people to John's book, because I think it's really important that we not have to relive it. But we still be able to show it and share that experience. And if you're like me, like look once twice after that, I need a fee, or I'm just not gonna do it. Right. In really, it's it's these types of Publishing's in materials that really help us not have to relive things but start to heal, and find and find places because we go home and we talk about it, we get on Twitter and we talk about it, we might be on clubhouse talking about it, right. But the ability to heal through what we experience is truly important, especially if we're not having to live it and tell it in the same place.
John:
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Michele:
So, John, any any final, final words for those joining us today?
John:
Other than thank you, again, for the Space Platform and the opportunity to disconnect with you. Always a pleasure, Michelle, and those are positive hire anybody listening? Certainly visit plantation theory.com. Get your copy, I'd be happy to sign it as well, if you want to drop me a note on LinkedIn and let me know you did so. That way and then also, I mean, what I encourage people all the time after any of these conversations is start asking better questions. Right, if we're not seeing the outcomes that are desirable? Well, let's look at what questions are being asked and really start to push our leadership into into action that's beneficial for those who are it's intended to be. So thank you.
Michele: 
You're very welcome. John, thank you so much for joining me, everybody. This is why I had John kickoff the equitable workplace virtual Summit, because it ain't equitable, yet. It's a lot of work to do. These stories are not old, they are present day. And we need that accountability kicked into high gear sooner, like 2019 sooner than later. So, John, thank you again, everybody. Have a great day and we will talk to you later.