This show is broght to you by  Safety FM. Hello and welcome to the J. Allen Show. Today's Tuesday, July the 28th of 2020. Hopefully, everything is going good in grand in your neck of the woods. Well, today we're doing a couple of different things. Today we're taking a stab at a video podcast. So let me explain. We will be releasing the podcast in the standard format that we always do under your favorite audio catcher. But we are also going to be releasing a video version of the podcast.  So if you go Teoh any of our social platforms such as YouTube, twitch and so on, you'll be able to see this video content as well. So before I get too winded in regard to talking about this, let me tell you what's going on today. We get to sit down and have a conversation with Andrew Baker. Andrius Passion is helping people understand the use of the principles of human and organisational performance pop. When she is asked what hop is, she often defines it and a cross between system design in psychology.  But that just isn't enough words to define it So we'd like you to take a listen to this conversation between Andrea Baker teacher myself here on the G Ehlinger way perfectly in the ordinary. I know this is our new world. Think how the world works now. So talking about how the new World works now, how are you enjoying it? Um, which part? Well, I mean now that as our friend Bob Edwards says the computer whole, how are you liking that aspect of it? The computer whole, Um, it has its pros and cons.  I find it much more tiring and in not a good way. So I find it any time that I get to talk about a subject that I love, I find it to be tiring, But usually it's in, like, a recharging myself way. I find that talking into the computer hole, um, is often tiring in a not recharging way where I'm still giving all of the energy I have. But I get very, very small amount of feedback back. Right. So, uh, yeah, so it's difficult, but I guess for the pros are that I get to talk to people that I probably normally wouldn't get to talk to, Uh shortly should be difficult.  So there's a couple of folks that I don't know for the last two or three years have been trying to attend a course trying to attend some conference and just have not been able Teoh And they have been asking for some period of time for these sort of virtual engagements to occur. And I have not done that yet until I was sort of forced to do it. Um, edibles s way. Were you prepared for this change? Like, were you already getting ready with you seeing everything that was going on?  Was it one of those things where you said, OK, this is coming. So we're going to start shifting over or it was okay, we're all on lock down, and now you just have to do it a little bit of ALS. So I was familiar with doing training remotely just because of my past life in like corporate role. I had to do a lot of remote training, so I probably kicked and screamed then and it sort of got the kicking and screaming out of my system so that this time when we had to go to kind of do this new world.  Yeah, I didn't have to complain about it minutely as much as I did the first time that that was sort of mandated to do it. So, um, historically, a corporation managed me to do it. Now the world sort of requires that we do it this way. And so I was familiar enough with how I wanted to to do this type of engagement that it wasn't It wasn't nearly as difficult as the first time that I kind of tend to struggle through how to do it. So as you look at this now, when things have changed and this is the new version ality of what the world looks like, you say that there's a lot more stuff that you have to put into it.  So do you feel that people are more adaptive? Or do you feel that there people are more willing to engage with you because of this format? Or does this You can't really gauge that at all. Um So what I find is that if I'm doing classes where people have chosen to attend and they've signed up, then the engagement is maybe even better than it might be in a classroom because so you almost have, like, equal footing with with the Each person has almost like this private audience with the person who's who's talking, right.  So when When I'm teaching and I've got you know, 20 or so people who are just these independent little squares on the screen, it feels as though you can sort of equally jump in where the dynamic in a classroom is not always that way. You know, people tend to dominate conversation out of specific table, and so you tend toe, maybe sit back if the person sitting right next to you is dominating that conversation, Um, so that peace is actually surprisingly lovely. I think by the same token, if an organization sets up a training and they sort of required people to come to it, then the mental schema that they have in their mind is like every other training or in every other meeting that they have to attend now.  And so it's much harder to engage people because they, you know, have the same mental model that they might have had from, you know, that 45 meetings that they were required to go to you that morning where they could be multitasking and getting their email done. It doesn't feel any different when the only thing that you see is like a little blip on your calendar. It might not even be a different color, right? It's just you look at your calendar day and you're like, Oh, I have this really long meeting And then suddenly the meeting is supposed to feel different than all the rest of the meetings that I went to today, and I think that's hard for people to adjust to.  Um, do you eventually know they do eventually. But, um, but the kind of the beginning, the beginning feels like pulling teeth. To have people be like, Oh, no, we're actually gonna talk to each other are not gonna just talk out. Well, that's the other thing, because I've seen some different courses. I've seen the ones where there zoom style that I've seen the ones where they do the interaction directly on a computer screen, not a computer screen, but it just the chat box. How soon do you see interaction?  How soon are you seeing people engaged? Because this is the other thing cause people normally are kind of shy like me, where their shock and they don't really want to talk at first. And then once you get them going, they'll go. So does that work good in the zoom format? Um, so I try a couple different things. A swell Aziz. You know, when Bob Edwards and I get to teach together, we try very hard toe set a stage where it's easier to talk, and one of the ways that we do that is that will sign on early.  And as people joined, we engage in conversation the same way that you didn't get age of people were walking into a room. Um, rather than it's sort of being like, Okay, we're starting at this time and suddenly this lacks wearing turns on, and everyone is just kind of like there or not. There a Z people are joining there listening Teoh, you know, chitchat about the weather and like what's going on and how are you feeling today on, and that helps people realize that they're allowed to talk.  I think we don't really know what the social norms are right. They the social norm for a lot of calls is that you're supposed to quietly listen. And now we're trying to change that in some circumstances, but it's hard to know, You know. Am I supposed to jump in here? Are you expecting me to or you're not expecting me to? So anything you can do it front to kind of tell people what it will be like, I think helps people are walking in with their eyes open and knowing that they're going to be engaging in conversation and those types of things.  So as this changes, let's kind of backtrack a little bit. So you were gone for a period of time doing the hop training stuff because you were out on maternity leave. So So congratulations. Number one and number two. This change. How does this kind of how did it set everything up for you? I mean, of course. Now you have the child at home. Your there? I don't know. If you want me dropping names, I'm not dropping names. How does that work now? Do you like it? Because I would imagine that you were kind of set up to start traveling again.  So now with that now she's there. You're there. How does this work sometimes really well and sometimes terribly, sometimes not well at all. So my original plan was I was gonna take some time off, and I was gonna be home full time. And then I was going Teoh, try to do some remote training, but travel at least once a month. So that was what was on my calendar. That's what is planning on doing. And obviously that's not what happened. Um, so I actually started working sooner than I thought I would, Um, I think, three weeks after she was born, I started to do, like, a virtual session here and there.  So that changed. And that was hard to adjust to as a new mother of you know what? What am I doing? Am I doing this too quickly? I'm sure anyone who has had Children can understand if they're trying to balance a career. And the Children of you know what trade offs are you trying to make in your head? And is that acceptable tradeoff? Um And so, as I said, started working earlier. Then I planned. But now I also get to be home more often than I planned.  So that's a nice straight off, But the physically trying to do both at the same time. It's not ideal. Not, um I kind of thought I was gonna be superwoman originally. I was like I could do both of these things at the same time, right? Aiken schedule things during a nap. And you know, I'm good enough to predict that, Of course, and totally wrong. That's not true at all. Eso we did have Teoh ask for some help. So we have a lovely lady here who helps wall, and she's with Penelope right now so that I could do something like this.  But sometimes things don't work is planned. And I have done training before where I've had to apologize and be like, This is also my daughter and she's here making this motion for long periods of time. Um, so, yeah, best laid plants as we know in the hot world. Well, I mean, I think it's one of those things is it's interesting on how it works. And I mean that in the best of ways possible, because people can see, you know, there is a real person behind the person because, you know, sometimes we put people on pedestals, especially when they do the things that such as you dio So I look at it and I go, It's good to see the humanize version of you behind the scenes.  But as we go down this and you're getting to, you know, to be the mother and be the teacher you have done some different things in most ha practitioners are not doing at the moment. And right now you are offering something every Tuesday at two oclock in the afternoon where you're doing kind of, Ah, private session is what we'll call it where you're opening it to the general public to come in and pretty much ask questions they have about hop. How did you come up with the idea?  Um, so I'm not gonna take credit for this at all, because actually, it was Bob Edwards, his wife that came up with the idea. Um, and it was something that people have been asking for for a long time and historically, to be perfectly honest with all the traveling, there just wasn't a set time that we could offer anything like this. So historically, the repressed always was. Hey, is there? Is there a place that we can go right. The people who are learning this, that people were practicing this, that you know, people who are experts in this.  Is there a place we can go a community that we can get together and just share knowledge and share information? And, um, I had tried to create something like that, like, there's, ah Hop Collaborators Group on Lengthen. But it just wasn't the same as having a conversation. And so sort of in fits and Starts had tried to set up some meetings before where I just kind of connect people that wanted to connect together and just have a conversation. And suddenly, when we had all of this scheduling time available and the ability to create sort of a routine schedule without having to worry about flights, and you know all those other logistics that get in the way, there was an opportunity to actually, we'll do that.  Just have a time where people could come together and talk, and it is one of my favorite times of the week. Honestly, to be ableto have those conversations because I mean, I don't know, Jay, you're on some of them, so you can kind of give your opinion on this, but I hope they actually helped like that. My my whole goal in doing them is that you're frustrated with something you don't exactly know where to turn. You actually have a place that you could go ask people who are doing the same thing, and we can actually help each other instead of kind of just being frustrated in our own little bubbles.  So what I like about it And this is just my opinion, of course, is that it starts off in a very interesting concept. It starts off with. We normally have two questions, is normally how it starts on the majority of them, and then it becomes, Well, we're not gonna focus on those. We're going to focus on turning it around and saying Talk about whatever you want, which is not a normal standard format, because most people can't adapt that quick. When it comes to questions and answers, they want to know.  I will tell you the amount of people that I talk to that I need to know everything. Just you're gonna ask before it happens. And they normally don't feel comfortable cause they don't do that. So you're doing it in an open forum and it's not one person and it's not two people I've seen. I think up to 12 13 people in some of those groups that are hanging out and you just you just take him and it's go wherever you want. So I find it amazing that you're it, that you're willing to do that which most people won't.  Do you think that that's cause is part of the drive for them or for me, a combination of both, because you do have some people that show up and they don't know what to expect. And then you have people from time to time that will jump from one session to another. But you were pretty par booked out. So do you think it drives them because it's kind of the open format, and then what drives you on doing? It s so I think that people like it because they can just bring questions to the table like we're sitting around having coffee and just having a chat about things rather have access to you.  Let's be really having access to the oh so Bob Edwards is there and we've got Helen Harris there as well. And we got, you know, many, many people who have lots of great thoughts around this way. You have a heart of a teacher. Let's not play. I won't. I won't be. I won't try to drive too much because I know how you don't like compliments too much. So I will try to be calm with it. But you have a heart of a teacher. You will really take these deep dives with people the most.  Yeah, well, I like Teoh. My entire drive is just to give as much information and help as much with practical advice is possible. So I really enjoy the sessions because get help it expand my thought. If I was worried that I always had to have an answer, I think that I would find that the session is very stressful. But because there's also people on the call that have been doing this for a while and we can tap into each other's knowledge, I feel as though for the most part my job is to facilitate and then offer what I can from my own background.  Um, so I'll offer my thoughts and then open it up and usually Some of the best advice comes from other people that are just kind of struggling through the same thing. So I hope that people like coming to it because they feel as though they can actually get information and sort of a straight answer to things. Um, and it feels a little bit less theoretical when you're struggling through the very specifics of this is exactly what I'm trying to do. And these are the exact struggles that I have versus when you're doing sort of open training with a bunch of people.  You have to speak in generalities cause it's just there's just not enough time to go through the specifics for every single person. So I guess the fact that a form exists to be able to do that for me is exciting because historically, as I said, just wasn't able toe figure out how to make it happen. Let me then you also do some things that our uncharacteristic for most people that present and let me and I mean this in a good way, way late. Make sure that I'm clear.  You will literally tell somebody if you don't know something that you want that you don't know. And you will grab something. I've seen you grab a phone. I've seen your type into your computer, where you literally look right there on the spot and get the answer that will be best suited for what they're looking for on the moment. Not pretending of. Let's put it on. Let's put it on a parking glide. You know, you know the board where you're gonna come back at some point in time, you get back.  It never happens in most sessions, Not with you. I'm just saying, you know, I understand. So you decided to do this like that. But you're willing to be vulnerable at the same time to and let people know you don't have all the answers where people look at what people look at you like, you know everything. And I mean that in a good way. Because I know sometimes when I say things like that, people go Well, thanks. But you know what? You know what? I think we're I don't Yeah, I I don't s So I think any time that you're in a position where you get to share knowledge, whether you're, you know, a professor, whether you're Europe.  Ah, teacher, Whether your trainer, whatever that folks see it is your job toe have the knowledge? Um, I guess I see it as my job to connect knowledge. And along the way I get to pick a lot of things, that bread I get toe learn things myself. And I get to explain at least how I managed in situations. And I did have a lot of time to get to trial and error things, and it really was trial and error wasn't like I, you know, had a playbook to follow and knew what I was doing.  It was seems like it could be a good idea. Let me try it. That did not work. How it plans. Let me try again. Um, so I get to share that. But then the rest of my job is just to connect people where I can with other people and other information that I have sort of come across that might be able to help them, because I would be I would be foolish to think that I would ever understand everything about this subject or be able to answer every question.  It's just, you know, I'm not. I don't have the mental capacity to do that. I'm sure somebody somewhere does. But I don't have the mental capacity to do that. So the best thing I can sort of be is like a weird role index of information and, uh, throwing some of my own experiences ago. So when would you say quote unquote? You found this one? What was the timeline that you found? Hop And I will use the term that I like that most people hate that you fell in love with this portion.  Loved with a love. It was love at first understanding. Hold on. First understanding. I think I'm still trying to understand this way. I for sure. I'm still also trying to understand it. First, first recognition. Maybe that's a battery love at first recognition. So I, before being exposed Teoh what I would call like, formally exposed to hot concepts. Um, I thought I was trying to do them and felt like I was always swimming upstream. So I almost got I'm not gonna say almost got fired because it's probably an exaggeration if it felt like it at the time.  There is a one term there's a different term. You almost got promoted to customer at the time. It was it was very traumatic. For May I was an intern race. I'm interning with this company, and I was told I didn't go to school for safety related anything, right? I went to school for engineering, So I don't know anything about the subject when I walk in as an intern. And one of the first things that my mentor at the time told May is that, you know, here, this company, we believe that all accidents are preventable and I was like, That doesn't seem right.  And I was given sort of this very firm talking Teoh about how if I was going to survive here, I needed to understand that that was true. Since you're in the back of my head, I was like, OK, well, I know that we strike. We're striving for that, like I understand that we strive for that, But still, fundamentally, it seems like thinking that that is a truth in the world is probably going to set us up for failure. So that was the first inkling that maybe I was swimming in the wrong direction, compared toa the rest of the folks that were in, you know, the corporation with me and then kind of throughout my entire career, I always felt like I was on the wrong side of the argument at the time until I heard about human and organisational performance.  And the first time I heard about it was from Dr Todd Conklin. I didn't know who he was at the time. He walked into a plant that I was working at and started talking about these concepts, and I, like, naively walked up to him, having no idea who he waas and was like, Hey, this is really cool stuff like, could you teach me more? Um, and very graciously said yes. But when I heard the concepts, it was my first understanding that there were other people that thought the same way that I was thinking and that they were actually terms to describe why I was thinking in this way and that there was a community of people trying to make a change on.  And so that's when I absolutely fell in love with the concept. I think I was in love with them all along, but that's when I had a name. I had a name to fall in love with it that way. Now, I'm gonna ask the very rude question What year we talking about? Oh, that's a good question. Um, and I'm really bad at dates. That's only reason is taking you so long. Hold on. You remember your birthday, your wedding date in your kid's birthday? Oh, my husband has to remind me when?  When? When we were married. And when I go to the doctor's office and they asked me when my daughter was born, I've gotten it wrong twice. So I'm not kidding you when I told you that I don't know. Um, so I actually have to do math backwards. I'm gonna give a guesstimate, but it's literally just a guesstimate about eight years ago. So it was eight years. So, you know, you need, like, a specific date. Yes, I need the date. The time that it clicked. So we're talking roughly 2012. Yeah. Okay.  So how does this transition for you? How do you start looking at this and go? I like it. I want to move forward with this. And at what point do you say I'm going to leave? What I'm doing to go that do this and teach the world. And let me rephrase that, cause I know you probably didn't use the term teach the world, but going you and I know, I know I've learned, but rather in teach this to other people. So there are a couple couple phases of this because first, it wasn't my job to teach this constantly within my own corporation, like not my job at all.  Um, learning at this time is the studio. So I was at the time I heard I was. And this is why I'm like, questioning the date trying to make a great time with this one. But at the time, I was on environmental health and safety leader at, like, a facility. And I love the concept so much so that I kind of didn't want to do my day job and just wanted to focus on the concepts. And so on some of my own personal time, obviously, right, a bunch of things.  And then I went toe seminars and stuff, and I just got lucky that at one point, um, I was asked Teoh talk on the subject, mainly because I think people just let me hanging around a lot like we have clearly heard this, you know, talk enough times that Would you go have this this little discussion and it with was with Cem social regulators. It was, Or maybe it was a regional ocean conference. All I remember was being nervous because the name Ocean was involved, right? And so up until that point in my career was like, you know, like there.  So I did not feel prepared it all to have this discussion. But at the time that I had it, there happened to be somebody that worked it, my corporation sitting in the room as well. And so when I was done talking, he approached me and said, Hey, don't you work for the same companies idea? And I said, uh, I think so, Yeah, And so we asked whether or not I would to have the same talk at his facility. So that's actually how I started. Talking to this subject within my own corporation was just word of mouth of doing that a bunch of times and sort of the same thing started to happen sort of outside of the corporation.  So once I started doing it is my full time job, which took several years of this transition. Then every once in a while somebody would say, Hey, are you willing to do this like, not for your own company? And I said, I think so, but I don't know what legal. So e like asking Havel conversations with HR and lawyers and so on. And so I was able to do that on my own time for a little bit on. And then, uh, my husband and I were moving and I had to change jobs, and the job that I really wanted was no longer available.  And so it just felt like the right time that, you know, I was gonna make a jump, I would make it. And I was really lucky enough to have a husband who was supportive and said, You know, you can make the leap and you know, if there's no water at the bottom, it's OK. I'll be there will catch you, and we'll just do something else. So it wasn't the traditional if you had to pick me or the career. So in what point in life during this whole thing does Bob Edwards coming to your life.  Oh, so early on. So I met him. Probably like the week after I met Ah, Todd Conklin because he also was speaking about this stop within his own, you know, sector of the business. And she came to my facility to talk about learning teas, and in our conversation we realized that I was doing learning teams. But I had never called in a learning team before. I had been doing a alternative event investigation. What a great like more of a name that I've come up with right on dso When we started sort of comparing notes, we said, Well, there's so many similarities here that we started to talk about teaching it to get out there.  And then, you know, I learned from what he was doing and he learned what from I was doing. And so we started to make some changes is to what we now call learning teams. But at the time, I honestly think that name was just kind of made up on the spot, pretty sure that at one point Bob looked a tad. He's like So what are these things that you know we started to do? He's like, I don't know. It's like a group of people together is like a team.  And, um, I think we're learning. So probably learning team were like, Okay, Yeah, that sounds good. Sounds like a whole bunch of better questions to me. No, just joking. So you decided to start. So you're at what point do you move? That you leave the country and you're working for this organization outside of the country. Oh, so that was people that don't know the back story. There was a portion when you were knotted. The US Gosh, you're asking dates again. So I think I've been doing this on my own for three years, Right?  So much so I have to work backwards, not don't. Kid weight doesn't have to be exact. Doesn't have to be, like, probably, like, ballpark it sometimes. Like in the wrong state. Like you have a ballpark come in and my husband looks like not even close injury. So, um, so three. So I've been doing this on my own for three years, and then to joking, right? And then before that, uh, we got to my husband and I got to live in Italy. Sorry. Keep hitting my screen, which is making, um for two years.  So 2. 5 years, So add those together. And that's when I moved from the US. We're living in a Cincinnati and we got to go over and live in Turin, Italy. I mean, nothing in Cincinnati, but Cincinnati to Italy, you know, world a change. There it is a pretty big change, especially cause we got to live in, like, the city center of this beautiful city that I probably think is undervalued by tourism, which was wonderful for us because there weren't, like, a lot of tourists in the area. And we got to actually see what it was like to live there, but also is a gym that people should be, you know, visiting more often because it really is a really beautiful city.  So so do you learn the language while you're there, and then start teaching habas well, or how does that end of going about? So I got lucky that I did not have to learn the language to teach. I was able to teach in English, and I was able to teach throughout Europe. Um and yeah, throughout your I think part of the regions that I helped with. We're outside of Europe, but I don't think I've physically taught anywhere except in Europe during that time Western and Eastern Europe.  And so I got to speak in English and I was in a lot of different places. My husband learned Italian quite well, said he worked in a plant, and by the time we left, he was, you know, all of his meetings were in Italian, you know, just thoroughly impressed by his ability to do that. Me on the other end, I could get to a grocery store and I could hold, you know, really terrible conversation with people that was not intellectual at all. That maybe sound like I was probably it, like a fifth grade lead reading level.  But that's good in some places. Anyway, Um, so yeah, so I e I was lucky to get to to get to be able to do this in English, and, um, I think I'm is probably one of the bigger downfalls that we have is, like, sort of a global community. Is there are not that many people that, uh, thinking in this direction and can speak as many languages as we need in order to cover the communities that we're looking to cover, right, So there's a lot of people that are multi lingual on.  There's a lot of people that are studying this, you know, that have the ability to speak, you know, more languages than I could even imagine trying to speak. But still, even with that, there's a lot of groups of people that, um, we've run into along the way that we just can't reach because there is a language barrier on. But it's hard to find people that are able to willing to actively translate the concepts because there's so much nuance toe what we're trying to discuss that it's it's hard when it's your native tongue.  It's hard to talk about. Um, S O, Yeah, One of my hopes for the future is that we have some more folks with with the language abilities that can help. Well, I get to talk to all kinds of people, and as you part might now we're not now way end up. Seeing a lot of is that a lot of people say that only probably about 10% of people have heard about hop. Do you think because of how things are going right now, and people being ableto have access the way that things were set up currently.  This will make it easier for that number to prop possibly increase. I do. But I'm also a little bit worried that this could be the moment where some of these really difficult, nuanced concepts become very water down. Um, because it's hard. I mean, it's really hard to talk about real things through a computer whole, you know? I mean, Teoh stuck. Now I'm sorry it's stuck forever. Charlotte shout out to mark Estimate. Pretty sure that was the original terms, but it's it's it's hard. And unless you are passionate about people understanding that piece of this, I don't see any reason why you'd want to, why, you'd want to spend the day because it drains you of energy to.  To be able to do it, drains you of energy and person, but joins even more of energy. You know, when you're far away, Um and so I I guess my concern is that very well meaning people, um, will inadvertently water down some of the concepts and people will walk away with just the ideas of some tools to use without understanding where they come from. Um, and then Hot becomes a program which we kind of know the history of the fate of programmes of we do it for a little bit.  And then because our belief system around things are assumptions, haven't changed about the world's, then we don't really see any reason to do it after a while. It's just, you know, it's the flavor of the month. You scared off some of the audience by saying the help is not a program like what? It's not a lot of program. It's a philosophy and settle bills. Where's the pills? Pills Exactly? Future itself. So it's a philosophy and, um, and it augments a bunch of the things that we do safety being one of, um, and you know, not everyone has to speak to the philosophy.  I understand that, right? Not everyone wants to speak to the philosophy, but if we don't understand where it comes from, and we don't struggle to think differently, well, then none of the tools help us because the tools have to be used in this frame of mind and to get to the frame of mind. You have to do some personal work to think about the world differently than maybe we have before. So for the people that are out there that say that a lot of the stuff about hot.  But I'm asking a question, not trying to be a jackass because, really, no, I think that that it's a pseudoscience. What do you think? Uh, your opinion, Your opinion is what I'm asking. So so my opinion is that it's actually based on extremely well documented understandings of how the human brain works. Um, I think we don't know everything about how we're trying to apply it. And I think that that's true about almost everything that we dio in the world. But it's, I mean, it's based on psychology and complexity.  Science, right? So based on what we currently know about those things, that's what is based on um, and there's a lot of very, very intelligent people that spend their entire careers teaching us what they know about those concepts, and so there'd be a lot of people that would be wrong in a lot of places. I'm not saying it's impossible, but what I do think is that when these philosophies are taught. Well, they're very, very hard to argue with because they line up with so many other concepts about how we know as human beings we would like to live.  And I think that's the strength of it. Because it draws from draws from, like, even adages, that your parents taught you growing up, right? It SSM my parents. I don't know, Tonto. Um And so, yeah, I I personally had the same concern, right? Jay, I You know, when I heard all of this and I was, like, enamored with the concept in the back of my mind, I said, What is this beast on like, Is this just like somebody like with Cem? Really cool ideas getting up and just like being really good, you know, talking to people of convincing people like, um, I like marching off the cliff somewhere, and I don't even see the cliff coming.  And so part of what I needed to do for my own understanding is to understand where this comes from and where these ideas are drawn from. And so actually, my personal, I guess the ah ha moment for me was understanding, complexity, science and I say of understanding very loosely because I have an expert in complexity, science. But in reading about how complex worlds work, right complex environments, it was like a light bulb light bulb level. This is why we do this. This is where that thought comes from.  This is it suddenly started to make a lot of sense is toe where all the information was coming from. Not all of it. That's probably an overstatement where much of the information is coming from. Well, I mean, and you have so much belief and faith in this and how these concepts work, that you've done something, and it's been a little while where you've done it. I think it's a year and change just in case for you, for me, that great. But you and three others of the time developed something called Hop Hub, and I decided to give out all the resource is of everything that you teach, not for a fee, not for membership for people to have.  And it's not some of the things that you teach. It is the actual presentations that people go to your classes to at least the ones that were in person at the time. I don't know. I think the other virtual stuffs all there. Okay, How did you come up with the idea? And I guess the other question is, why did you decide to come up with the idea? Um, so the how is probably not nearly as, um, romantic as it should be. Like I could come up with, like, a romantic backstory.  And that'd be awesome, but the whole point. But there is no remission like the how was, um, you know, we got together as the small group that we were at the point and realized that just like the logistics of trying Teoh get people are slide decks was hard. And so we should just put them somewhere so that we can always just say here, just go to this web site, and that's where it is. Very romantic. Way to get an order, Teoh. Make sure that people, like, knew they were in the right place.  You know, as I'm setting up the website was like which probably at least have, like, a page that says who We are on it. Right. So So this is this is what it is. In case you Google and you find out you know who these people are and where where this information is coming from. Because originally was just gonna be, like a page with, like, just resource is on it. And nothing else was like that kind of doesn't look professional. Um, so yes, So that's the unromantic story working from the idea of giving away slides.  I'm also not gonna take any credit for that because that's what was that's how I started to learn was the fact that people were willing to teach me and teach me freely and give me access to what they were using his teaching materials so that I didn't have to recreate everything. And without that stepping stone to begin to try to explain any of this to someone that was in my own corporation of the time it would have, it would have felt like too big of a barrier.  And so the goal of giving it away so that hopefully we can just create more of people that are able to talk to it because the more we can talk to it, the more that other people understand. And there's a lot of people in the world right. So there's no way that, you know, a small group of people that are teaching this now will be able to get that information out to everyone. That's the reason Well, I mean, it's interesting because here's the thing and I will say this that way.  I don't before. You don't sound like the bad person, but I will say it actually don't actually give out any of their materials. They are very protective of their materials. They want to make this a program, as you say that it is not in its their intellectual property and there'll be some name changes and you're disrupting the system. It almost reminds me of an older movie I've seen many years ago called the ST where the Lady want to give free fusion to the world, um, for power.  So when you look at it, Ugo, you're becoming a market disruptor with that part of the intent. No, no, actually, I really apologize that that's happening to people because that was not intended. All know, like literally no, no thought that that would even happen just based on my inability to see the bigger picture. Right? So when you start doing stuff like this you don't even have an understanding of who else is in the community doing these things? And you certainly don't know what their business lines are. Right.  So, um oh, if you only knew So there is probably just, like, lack of understanding from my part specifically is not recognizing that something like that could be detrimental to other people in my head is only helpful, but clearly, I'm sure from other people's percent, it's not based on what you're saying. Right? So, um so sorry for that. It doesn't go like this. Sorry. Not sorry. Um, I'm so sorry, but but no, because I do. I do empathize. I empathize a lot. So the first sort of sets of material that, you know, I I spoke Teoh, I'd say, like 98% of it was something that somebody gave me, right?  And then the more it became more and more what I do and put time and energy and effort into, um the more it feels like you should own it, right? You should have ownership. Like I put I put energy into it. I I had to do research. I had Teoh is my blood, sweat and tears into it. So the I think the longer that you spend your personal time energy ideas, the more it feels like you should be able to own it. And the more right you do have to own it.  Um, and so I can understand where that comes from, right? Because I have to remind myself every once in a while I'll see you. So you know I'll work for a group and they will asked me to do a presentation, and every once in a while they'll say, Hey, can we see your slides ahead of time? Sure, send them slides that I'm planning on talking to and they'll say something like, Well, actually, no. We really want you to cover these five slides and they'll send me slides back.  And they're my slides from like years ago that they don't even know where it came from right there. So it's moments like that that I'm bulls absolutely excited because that's the reason that we did it to begin with. But then there is a part of me, right? It's the sort of like human, selfish part that we all have that says you didn't even know it was my right. Like you're telling me how you didn't even know I did this like it. And so I have to continually remind myself, No, that's that's why we're doing it.  We're doing it some more people understand to get out of your own way, Andrea, because, um, that's not helping people, you know? So when you look at that particular in regards is giving the five slides aspect D will Does that happen quite often, where people say, I want you to go slightly a different direction which originally had planned, um, going down the same path, but at the same time, it's well, no, we want you to focus on this, even if it might be a little bit older stuff that you had done.  And that's the other thing about slides. I think they're kind of the help. The kind of ah memory clicker, where you can kind of move forward, opposed to it being where I hate going to presentations where somebody reading us like to me, I was like, I can do that. I just send me the deck. Yeah, uh, so as you look at it, do you like about it? like the 1st 1 would be like, Do you like the direction when people say, Hey, I want you to change it a little bit even though they still haven't even seen your original your original thought So I love when people give me context.  Um, I really in a similar fashion is having these, you know, Tuesday's that to where people come and they say, This is my specific problem when an organization says this is where we are This is what I'm concerned about the This is the terminology that we use thistles. How I think things will land with people. I find all that to be extremely helpful because that means Aiken Taylor, how I'm speaking Teoh, make sure that people can hear me because I mean, the message doesn't change. But whether or not people can hear you changes on dso them or that I can speak in a way that people are going to be receptive, the better off it is for everyone.  Um, so I love that I don't love and I don't think anyone lost right, So I don't think anyone loves when somebody says no, this is This is the cookie cutter of what I like. You too, Dio. And, um I'm pretty open with people that I'm not going to do that. So I respect I respect what you're saying, but tell me why you tell me the intent. Tell me the intent of what you're trying to do with directing me that way. And are you OK with the fact that I'm going to try to meet that intent using my understanding of how to meet that intended based on, you know, doing this a bunch?  The book question behind the question. I am. So there is a book called That way. Believe that you que que is what it's called by the word I will actually a ladder that be like, yeah, I just want my brain is processing. Think so. So we'll try to try to find out what right and then if they are adamant, absolutely adamant that Hey, I really need you toe say this way specifically and and that goes against my belief of what I think is going to be helpful.  Um, I actually won't do it. Meaning I will tell them. I'm sorry. I don't think I'm the right person for you because I have done it a couple times and it has not worked out right? So I've had a couple of companies that asked me to go in and specifically teach, like these tools. I would like you to teach these tools, and I go in thinking that people understand the entire philosophy and there are two thinking this way, and I have been wrong, right? And so the tools bowl flat people don't understand what they're used for.  It is clear that the tools themselves, if they were used, would not be used as they were originally intended. And so I learned that the hard way a couple times, and now I just say, Sorry. Here's somebody that be willing to help you just in that aspect. But I give you gotta serve somebody up to you that will adapt to whatever you do that what you're looking for in those cells. Just I mean, honestly, I'm stubborn. I'm some stubborn and, you know, like I think many people I like to have control over my messaging, and I feel as though it's part of me.  I'm giving away a part of me every time I have this conversation and So it's very hard for me. Teoh be directed as to how to do that. I will never agree or disagree with somebody. When they say they're stubborn out other sleepers. It's better that way. Don't say that. Don't say that. Okay, so right now, just a couple more questions and I know that you're being very kind of your time in regards to being able to come on. When you look at this, are you enjoying this more?  And regards were doing the individual person that comes into the class or you liking it more with the interaction with companies, and I know that that's kind of Ah, terrible question. Oh, that's a great question. And I have a very specific cancer. I very I think I would have predicted that I wanted it to go the other way around where I'm my prediction would have been. I would much more like to engage with a company that wants, you know, a specific group of people to understand this philosophy, and I don't think that anymore.  So So I get much more energized by doing classes where people are coming in and they come not associated with their company I mean loosely associated with the company wherever they come in as an individual, sometimes they're sponsored by the company to come in. And the reason why I enjoyed that so much is because there's a lot mawr interaction that doesn't feel as though you are put into sort of your own bubble of understanding of the world, right. So within a company, there's very specific assumptions social norms that have been created.  And when you're working with a company, you step into those social norms and often times you don't know what they are, but everyone else does, and so you can easily step on something you didn't intend to step on. And so you're constantly trying to figure out what those norms are and then do your best to show people that the world outside of their organization does not necessarily look the same way that it does in their organization. And they kind of have to just take your word for it because you're the only one of their great thinking that are saying that when you have a bunch of people coming from all over the place, all of those little bubbles break down and people are much more willing to openly talk.  They're much more willing. Teoh discuss sort of the social norms that I don't agree with the company, and they hear and see from a lot of other people that it doesn't have to be that way, right? So each for every I'm concerned about this discussion of the room, there might be 20 other people who are like we work and start about that. This is what we did, and those ideas might be slightly different, but that's exciting to me because they're not stuck in sort of their echo chamber as they are when you're all with your your own corporation.  So what is what head down? This journey has been something that you didn't expect to happen that's happened so far, especially going out on your own. Oh, I never expected anything I really didn't. So I kind of thought that I would, you know, move back. So the time that the time that I started to do this on my own with the same time we're moving back from from your back to the U. S. And I kind of thought, you know, I'll try this and I'll give it a go for like, three months.  And if I get no work than I'll go search for a job where we live and that'll be that s so from the very beginning, when I didn't have to do that after three months that I was surprised. And so I'm continually surprised about how many people are willing. Teoh, listen to the subject about how many places it applies, right? So I lived in the safety bubble and then the more I started to talk to people, the more we realized that people are using these concepts for a lot of other things.  There is a gentleman that, um, Bob and I had the honor of being ableto work with, and he's using the concept of learning teens to help with police forces, walking through how they want to change on how they want the future to look, there are people that have started to use these concepts to figure out how Teoh reopen schools. Um, they're people that have started to use these concepts to think about how they want to look at education as a whole. Like, how do we teach parents, too?  I'm going to be better parents. But that sounds terrible, right about Tonto eso the applications that other people besides myself can see or what we're talking about getting excited over time. And that's probably something that I could have never predicted. Now, if people want to get more information about you and the work that you're doing working the go and they gonna happen, there's links toe all of the folks that are on the hop hop. So it's hot hub dot org's um, and so there's links that give more information about each of the individuals that are not part of that.  So you just find my name somewhere or just my picture. If you somewhere it's there, it's there on that. Links links to other stuff and you can google Andrea Baker, but you'll get a singer. I think it's a singer, Thank you after so that won't help you. But you can Google, Andrea Baker and H. O. P. And you might get some fairly useful stuff. Well, Andrew, I appreciate your actually coming on and being so gracious with time of year. This brings another episode of the GL in show to an end.  I appreciate Andrea Baker taking the time today to have this conversation with us. If you're interested in gathering more information about Andrea, go to hop pub dot or that is H o P h u b dot org's Inside of there. There is a section that talks about the classes that she'll be teaching underlie virtual, make sure to click on it and take a look. This will bring another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. Thank you for always being the best part of safety FM, and that is the listener.  Don't forget that this Wednesday, July the 29th we'll be having our hot 101 class covering the foundations in fundamentals of human or organizational performance. If you're interested in more information, go to safety FM dot io. We'll be back with another episode of the J. Allen show before too long. Good bye for now, one smooth the views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within with podcast are only example.  It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited. Undated Open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast.