Road to 100th episode-Dr. Linda Martin, PhD.
December 30, 2020
In this week's episode, Sheldon speaks with Dr. Linda Martin the Lorax about her life as an academic, the world of safety and health, and her life in general. Linda also give me good advice for beyond 100 episodes.
[00:00:06] spk_1: this episode is powered by Safety FM.
[00:00:15] spk_0: Welcome to the safety consultant. Podcast on your host, Sheldon. Primacy Thistles. The podcast where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. This'll Week is another episode going to a road to 100 we're gonna be talking to Dr Linda Martin, the Lorax Linda Martin is one of these people that I've just recently meant through the safety FM family. But it feels like I needed her in my life years ago, and I probably did. She has been really good Thio get to know, and it's been fun. We had an episode earlier this year and actually not too long ago. But when I was deciding people that I really wanted to be part of my 100th episode, Linda was on that short list, and I'm so glad that she accepted. And who's going to be on this before we get to the podcast? I want to remind you guys to go ahead and subscribe to the podcast, and it would be really, really good if you could go ahead and do whatever uh, rating you wanna give me. It's up to you. Five star would be awesome. But, you know, I don't want to leave the witness here. However, you feel like you want to do that, that's great for me. I just really need the ratings, because what I'll do is it will pump me up in the rankings so that more people will be able to see that I have a show out there to help people that are gonna be safety consultants or, in the safety realm, Azaz well as entrepreneurs. Because that's really what we are received a consultant. So if you could do that for me, that would be really great. If you're feeling a little extra chickie now with that cheeky, it's a funny word. Anyway, if you're feeling a little bit extra that you want to do some work, go ahead and drop me a comment to be awesome to hear what you think about the show. People have been sending me stuff on Sheldon and Children primers dot com, and they've also been sending some information to me via LinkedIn. So go ahead and leave that comment for me. All right, so for this episode, Linda and I get right into it, and we really just start talking about a few things first about her crazy insane, just amount of work that she's doing. And she's one of these doctors that eyes Anat visor on. It comes to me that man, she's an executive coach. That's really what it boils down to. So we talked a little bit about what she's doing now, what she's learning. And then also a few ways that she coaches those that wanna become doctors. And then we also talked a lot about safety in itself and what we're seeing more as people who they don't really branch out to have an academic mind toward safety and health, and that could be a little bother of some. And also it could be misleading in times, and we talked a little bit about that, and we just talked about a little bit of everything quite honestly. That's what we do, and we get on the phone together. Me and Linda, I just love me some Laura X. She's really cool, You guys, we're gonna have a kick listening to her. And if you want to also listen to her episode, scroll down from the feed wherever you got me. Listen to this episode and they listen to our one on one on our previous interview. So after me and Linda get done, you're gonna hear the music to let you out, and then we're just gonna end the episode at that time. So I am going to tell you what I always tell you each week. But I tell you to be encouraged by, and that's go Kettle. What you been up to lately? I see you everywhere. What do you What have you been up, Thio? That you could share with the audience as faras from the last time that we had our episode? I believe that was in October. If I'm recalling right, I'll have toe check real quick. So a couple of months of pandemic and chaos election, all that stuff. But
[00:04:35] spk_1: e actually don't remember what we talked about, but yeah, let's see. What have I been up, Thio? I have 24 dissertation students. I don't know if you saw me post that on, uh, Lincoln, but I've been working a lot with dissertation students doing research, which I find to be fascinating because my students are all over the world, and, um, they're doing all kinds of different stuff. So while my PhD and my dissertation was in mindfulness, we're working on psychological safety. We're working on both proportional workforces. We're doing some research on pilot fatigue. Um, we're doing work on military fatigue, which is a really interesting thing. You wouldn't think that co vid um you know, covitz affected everything, and it's even affected the military. I have one student. That's ah, uh, drill instructor. Uh, and his unit have to quarantine when they come in for their training, but also, when drill instructors cycle out, they have to quarantine when they come back in. And so is putting extra, um, stress on the people that are left to train. And so they're doing extra hours and extra shifts and etcetera. So, um, you know, covitz upset everything?
[00:06:12] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:13] spk_1: Eso I've got a couple who was working in that Kogan realm and e basically basically been working on that. I've been working on the podcast, Aziz, you have seen through E. Lincoln and other sources trying to get my voice out there and trying to change the paradigm.
[00:06:32] spk_0: Like if you were gonna say your time for dissertations and because you now have to and my brother's done this. He's a doctor in sociology. I believe eso he had. He went through it years and years and years where he had someone who you know, he had to report to someone in your position when he was doing his dissertation and research. He had to dio And I'm thinking you have to probably match that intensity. But for 27 students,
[00:07:03] spk_1: 24 24 right now. But it will be more in the spring, I think, depending on how many on the signs. But, um, you know, I consider what I do with PhD students, more poaching thin anything. And, um, you traditionally, um, you choose a chair right after you do your comprehensive exams and your courses, whereas when you coming to Capitol Tech, it's a European model. So you're just researching basically until you're done right, And so they're assigned to me and we I walk these people through the process of, you know, do you have an idea for a topic you do? How do you narrow it? How do you do the research that helps you know what's been done before and what is incrementally better than what's out there in the body of body of research already. And then, you know, I mean weekly with some people. I mean bi weekly, biweekly with other people. And we talked through where they're at and what my thoughts are about how to move forward. And, you know, I would say a capital tech. The research process is, you know, for a really ambitious student is three years right for other students, that's longer. And it just depends on the student, right? I have I have a student that that never wants to talk to me. They just they just want to research and they do a great job with it and we meet once a month. Um, but I have other students that, um, need a lot of coaches, and that's fine, too. That's just that's just who they are, right?
[00:08:52] spk_0: So you're an executive coach?
[00:08:55] spk_1: Kind of. Yeah, it's It's kind of weird that way. Although I'm learning in the process about other areas of safety that maybe aren't my expertise areas, I would say, Um, but I e read a lot of literature and research in those areas in orderto augment what I'm doing. E think coaches do that too, right? I mean, they look at where you're at and what you're doing and what you're into, and then try toe advise you the next steps are, um it seems
[00:09:30] spk_0: like you're doing like, to me. It seems like it's it's, ah, a different version of troubleshooting. But with people. So in this kitchen, instead of, you know, situations, our machinery or something else. So the person is telling you, uh, of mystery to them. You have to understand the missing piece, whatever it is, then Now you go in, uh, basically, you know, look at each variable and then try to see how to how to take out the variables that are nonsense and then put in, you know, the pieces that this is what you really want. This is
[00:10:12] spk_1: Yeah, in a way, that's that's kind of what I'm doing. I mean, I feel, um the way I described it toe one student was, you know, I'm the litmus for when you get to the end, because at the end you have to defend this body of research. And so
[00:10:31] spk_0: in a group like what, three or four people?
[00:10:33] spk_1: Yeah. And they're asking you questions on your statistics, and they're asking you questions on you know why you did. Why you picked a topic. And why is this different than what already exists? And you're asking you all these questions. And so, um, I'm that person that during the three years is putting up the guard rails, right? And the bumpers you could guard where guardrails or bumpers, whichever you want, Right? Because what happens is when you research, you tend to kind of throw out all these technicals in areas and what you want to do for the four people 45 people that are gonna be asking you those questions is put up discreet guardrails so that they can't go outside the guardrails, right, that the questions are already answered. And those branches of the tree are truncated so that it leads them to the point that you're trying to make
[00:11:29] spk_0: your leading the witness,
[00:11:31] spk_1: uh, in a way, right, in a way. So it's really easy in in academia and research to go down the wormhole. Right? And the point of a dissertation is to show additional, um, in addition to the body of knowledge that doesn't exist. And so whereas you don't want to go down the wormhole. You also don't want your dissertation committee to start asking questions outside of what your point is, which, you know, at the end of your defense, you should have made that point. And, um, where questions are welcome are in. How you got to that point? Uh, yeah,
[00:12:15] spk_0: absolutely. It does, because I saw my brother going through the process when he had Thio. His final dissertation was basically he were from a Afro Caribbean community. Were born and raised in Guyana, where I was I was born in in America, but I became a Chinese citizen later on. But hey was just truly looking at how the family structure is with religion, with expectations and everything in the Caribbean mindset, and had to defend, you know, all the other different stimulus. Everything else that would have also affected that child powers is different than a Caribbean versus, you know, someone from a Nordic nation or someone, Bill. So he had to really try toe, you know, figure out. Okay, well, from the Caribbean mindset, you're coming, and he had to go all the way back to like slavery. And, you know, he really had to start thinking of what created this. And then he had to define a culture. And then from there he really had Thio go into how now the descendants of these people, how we feel some of the some of the distant depression, but then also a few other things. That's a driving factor. So that's why, in some cases you see someone in the Caribbean doing like six or seven jobs, you know, and they're still feeling like they're lazy.
[00:13:38] spk_1: E must be from the Caribbean, then.
[00:13:41] spk_0: Yeah, No kidding,
[00:13:43] spk_1: e I feel like I'm lazy all the time. I mean, you kind of brought up. I have, ah, student in Dominica, and, uh, she's looking at safety management systems from their government regulatory, uh, framework. And, uh, it's really interesting. You know, what you just described about your brother is that she has to describe everything that's leading up to what their structure is on dominica on on an island, um, and how safety management systems, or or a regulatory structure for a safety management system could be put in place. That there, uh, that fits their culture, and that also fits. The type of business is on the island. So, um, I mean again that that's something that I've never would have thought I would be helping the research. And there it iss right
[00:14:44] spk_0: so great for you, because that makes you so it keeps depositing into your knowledge base and then also from that I can imagine with your personality. You know, true, you're saying it likes you up in getting that knowledge base. But then you might also be inspired to do something else. So that leads me to think, Are you creating a book or a course or everything else? Because of of all these deposits that you're getting from all your your students,
[00:15:13] spk_1: Well, I'm I'm not. Maybe I'll create a book on how to coach the dissertation students. And I thought about doing some live streams on how toe kind of coach people through dissertations quote yourself through a dissertation because there are a lot of traditional, um, HD programs where the students don't get a lot of help on how to research or how toe narrow or how toe. And so I thought, I mean, I give a lot of knowledge away for free just because I think we should. We shouldn't horde our knowledge. We should We should actually share it. What a concept, Right. And so, um, if you've seen some of my live streams lately on LinkedIn, I've been talking about where you get stuff for free, right? And that may not be good for the safety consultants
[00:16:00] spk_0: and helping us needs. And through all the things that you've been talking about lately, E watch you write.
[00:16:08] spk_1: And, um, but writing a book. I mean, I've got four books in the works with Wiley Publishing right now, and so I've got to get those done by next year, so I there won't. There won't be any book on dissertations or anything like that until after the wily books. They're done.
[00:16:27] spk_0: Yeah, I remember I was on the under contract with L severe publishing ones to write a wastewater math book, and it was so taxing on. I still have never finished that book. I actually that's one of the things I I had to let go. So it was early in my career and I was trying to do too much, and I talked to the publisher and I'm like, Hold on, you got the science. Direct people l severe people contacting you to write. And here you are letting this and go. And I have a lot of guilt about that because truly, I felt like I let this publisher down. Who, you know, he found me, asked me to write the textbook. So you know, it wasn't it was truly academic. I had 300 pages ready and I gave it to room. I said, Here's my 300 pages. I just can't get to the bottom of this And they have part of my my work already. But I really know what it's like when you're on that That constraint of publishers, especially for academia.
[00:17:27] spk_1: So So I actually on the four projects. I have three co writers on free the books. So that helps. And one of them I'm writing myself on cybersecurity and construction, and that's kind of more of a smaller book. So I think I could handle that myself. So the cybersecurity, one cybersecurity and construction, incredible critical infrastructure. That's gonna be a shorter book. It's gonna be more like a you know, like a paperback where the other are gonna be pretty big textbook. So, um, I said I must be Caribbean and dissent because you like to do eight or nine jobs. That's 100% me. It's like I feel like, um e did learn to say no to things for a while. E that
[00:18:23] spk_0: you learn to say, Now,
[00:18:24] spk_1: how did I learn to say now? Yeah. Um Well, uh, I too personal trial and tribulation. And I think when your home life starts to suffer, you know, your marriage starts to suffer. It's, um it's very easy to start putting things in perspective. And I think also the pandemic put things in perspective to me. And I've slowed down a lot. You wouldn't think I have. Um But I do say no to things that take a lot of time. I say no to things that cut into the evening time with my family. Um, so I think a personal reckoning has made me slow down. Um, but I still feel like I have plenty of time to do things. E mean, big posts, market, the podcast, the livestream writing, working with dissertation students teaching e.
[00:19:33] spk_0: I had to do the same thing. You know, my wife and I, we've been married 23 years, so you know, when you get through that, you get those the ups and downs, and you know the times where you're telling you. All right, we've got to be done in a certain amount of time, because when you're your own boss, no one tells you to clock in or a clock out. So the time just keeps going, and I found myself even yesterday. It 6 30. I'm writing a proposal. Yeah,
[00:19:59] spk_1: and it's easy to get caught up in that, right? I mean, it's easy to when you're making money, especially as a consultant, because I've been a consultant. Andi, I've been on my own that it's hard to say no when the money is good and it's hard to say no when you like the client on, it's hard to say no when it's something new and fun and exciting and a site that you've never assisted with before. And so, um, you know, again, what helped me start to say no was was I have enough e had to start telling me I have enough and the extra money is great and, um, e to me, it's more important to be with my Children and Thio maintain a relationship with my wife than it is to have an extra 500 bucks in my pocket.
[00:20:52] spk_0: Yeah, and I think it challenged me personally when I weigh. Had those discussions that weren't really fun, we I I really had to challenge myself to say, Is it time management? Is it escape? Is, um, you know, meaning for me personally, um, I just trying to escape from something. And here I am, Porter myself in tow work. Is it unbalanced in my life where all of a sudden, you know, it becomes easier for me to do work than to take the time to meditate or something similar to that? Or is it just flat out thinking of the future? You know, because there's a consultant, you gotta pay for everything yourself. And if you see in your calendar, all of a sudden things go away in January February like, all right, I gotta do something to get some money coming in for those two months.
[00:21:39] spk_1: It's stressful being a consultant, especially if you're on your own and what I always tell people when they talk about going into consulting or I wanna want Oh, my own business I say, You know, for me, it it It was always easier to put my hand out and get a paycheck. Right? When you're a consultant in your on your own, you may have a tremendously good mind, and then the next month make nothing right. And, you know, hopefully that evens out as you go along. But a lot of consultants don't make it because there is a lot of stress of I made a lot of money. Now there's a couple of down months on when you do with that time, right? So you start pouring yourself in your work because you have thio pay the bills, you have to pick your own insurance. You have to pay insurance for the business. You need to make sure that money is coming in for your family, whether it's for school or for food or for shelter. And you know, I give you a lot of credit because consulting is not an easy road, especially if you're so brighter.
[00:22:50] spk_0: Yeah, and we get back expenses quite a bit to help make that work, too. So it's truly you know, the balance of how can you How can you make this work for a long term. If you still know your goals, what's the thing for this? And right now we're caregivers and we would not have been able to do this for two years, caregiving full time without being flexible. Eso that's the give and take of you know what we do is consultants is like, Yes, I know there's not security where I could put my hand out and get a paycheck because there's a consult. You put your hand out and nothing comes back. It didn't work eso But the trade off is when you actually need the time on the flexibility mobility to do things you can, and I value that a little bit more. So,
[00:23:41] spk_1: yeah, eso I've achieved that with my teaching, right? So I teach online and I coach Jim Paul like we're doing now and I do some consulting, but it's not my primary thing that I dio. I have a couple of clients that just keep coming back, and I can't say no. I write books. I do the podcast, which makes enough money to pay for my equipment. So far, um, but there is flexibility and everything that I do and I need that. I finally found out in my fifties that I need that and so I could take my kids to school. That's my job in the morning to take my kids to school and then I work. Um, and I've also learned to shut off at 4 35 o'clock for the most part because I'm not doing a live stream or an interview interview so that I can put what's most important before, which is kids in my wife.
[00:24:44] spk_0: Excellent. Two questions. I know you got the time constraint today, one of the questions that I was thinking of And, uh, I heard you talking about this, uh, in one of your shows when you're mentioning about being a consultant for a company and you're helping them hire someone in safety and they couldn't tell you as a trainer, what they train on and, uh, one of the questions you ask them Well, what do you train on? And they couldn't answer that As I recall your story right on your podcast episode. So are you still seeing stuff like that where people are faking their resume or they just don't grasp the basics of safety and health. But yet they're looking for a job in safety and health or even as a consultant. They say they are. And you're like, you're a little lacking. You can't answer my questions here.
[00:25:38] spk_1: So all of the all of the above, right? This this company was looking for a safety director with 10 years of experience. And so I mean, everybody has in their mind what a safety director with 10 years of experience should look like, right? Possibly a certification, possibly the cost or the cross them. Right. But, you know, I was getting resumes of people who just fell into safety, and we're doing project safety. Um, similar Thio Hobart came along and safety was one of the first things to go with a lot of companies and but they But they were hiring safety professionals that we were taking temperatures and doing covert monitoring, but had no background in safety used to People are now looking for jobs to fill the safety director positions that they have no business applying for. E mean that that's my thing. And these resumes were coming through, and, you know, I mean, it would be like I would think you would have the same kind of skepticism the resumes would come through and I would read them. The company was not savvy enough to read them themselves, but I would read them and I would say, I gotta ask the question because I don't think this guy knows what this guy or gal knows what's on their resume. And it was It was shocking sometimes that, you know, maybe they've just taken to somebody else's resume and just put it on there or, you know, or they don't really understand that safety is a career choice in a profession as opposed to a title or a better paycheck than what they're making. Or, you know, I mean, some of some of the people that were submitting resumes had things on the resumes. They couldn't articulate, like what they trained on or what they were qualified to train on. Or, um, you know, they were doing safety for somebody. But really, what they were was a glorified security guard, right? Somebody to drive around and scare the heck out of people that they're driving around
[00:27:53] spk_0: someone that was enforcer. You know, Where's your heart had right about your safety glasses and that's what they say. I was in safe.
[00:28:00] spk_1: Yeah, I was in safety. Um, and it's really hard to hire, at least on the East Coast. Here where I am, I've had a lot of reach out saying, Can you help me? You know, can you put out the word about this? I want to get a person with five or 10 years of experience, and they're just, um maybe it's the East Coast, but they're just scarce. Uh, and, um, either they're not looking for work or people are engaged, or this is just the area of the country that we're in right now. I don't know, but I saw very few resumes come through that E would consider five or 10 year experience people that could do the job. E
[00:28:49] spk_0: kind of leads me, Thio. Other question I was thinking about because if people are accumulating years but not accumulating knowledge or they're accumulating years and they're not actually bettering themselves, then that first leads me to What does it say about the acceptance of that kind of stagnant life in our industry that we say, Yeah, that's good. That's that's happened. That means that we're not as professional, as we say we are. And then the second thing that leads me is it's also I've seen this a lot in in, um, people that are saying statements and then also adjusting even into beliefs that don't have the proper peer review or even not even ifit's peer reviewed. But, you know, that would be great if they even go that far. But it seems like border conspiracy theory stuff that is being thrown into the safety well realm. And you're like, how can you safety professionals get away or even think that they could just drop down this this philosophy, this thought process without trying to vet it in any way? It just drives me nuts. And I'm thinking someone like you, you must drive you more nuts than me because
[00:30:14] spk_1: it drives me crazy. Okay, so So just because you say something, I just talked about this last night with Michael Bowman and Nate Bremen, and, um, it drives me crazy when we trot around and and we I mean, I was probably one of those people at at at some point, and we say blah, blah, blah culture or blah, blah, blah pop or blah blah, blah, blah, multicultural. All these buzz words, right? And much of it is opinion based much of it. And if we say it enough, it becomes reality. Tow us, right? And then if we say it, even Maura, because reality, the people around us. But there's really no hard research around some of the things that you're reading in safety magazines, like professional safety, right? It's a summary or a meta analysis what's already out there, which doesn't constitute research. It constitutes accumulation of thought. It constitutes accumulation of opinion, but not accumulation of knowledge and furthering of knowledge does that. Yeah,
[00:31:38] spk_0: Okay, that's what I thought because we in the industry, we need to shit up. People pull down all kinds of bullshit and we just eat it up and we think, Oh, yeah, that's it. Let's go for this. This is the next best thing in safety, and I even see it with basic OSHA regulations. People argue with me with basic OSHA regulations, and I'm a ocean rag specialist. I know eggs. I can memorize some of these things. And when they tell me this, I'm like, Okay, show me. And when they don't like for instance. You know, ladders, who everyone here is three points of contact Thio end to descend a ladder Nowhere in the regulations, as it ever say. Three points of contact. It's not in there, but people
[00:32:21] spk_1: are. I line. You know, it's a guideline, but you're not gonna be cited for it.
[00:32:27] spk_0: No, and truly, it's things like that. But that's on the basic side. But now I'm thinking people with philosophy, you know, you say hop to somebody and they're truly thinking, you know, the word of human organization and how they perform. I'm like, Yeah, basic. But you gotta go through all the different things that build up to it. And then even with the behavioral based safety side, and people are going around hammering people for doing at risk behaviors instead of actually looking for safe behaviors and and coaching them through that, the mindset that I've seen is you get a little drop of theory and they meaning the safety professionals out there and all of a sudden it just gets run with as being and then augmented to whatever seats them in their own situation that it becomes so diluted, not peer reviewed. No one's doing, you know, focus groups or anything similar to that exception. Studies or gap analysis, research. Nothing. And it's driving me crazy. And I keep thinking of you every time I see something. Linda is a professional at this. She's probably going nuts.
[00:33:42] spk_1: Yeah, even before I got into the you know, the dissertation stuff in the PhD in the research, I always have taken things with a grain of salt, right? And maybe that's maybe that's how I was raised was okay, What is truth? Okay, there's truth to me and there's truth to you and there's truth to somebody else and the loudest person speaking their truth. A lot of times becomes the political expert, and I think that's a really dangerous thing when it comes to safety and I'll give you an example. So the pandemic, right? When March came and the pandemic was starting and people were starting to talk about Cove in every single not every single most safety consultants for all of all of a sudden covert experts novel virus, all all of a sudden they were advertising. I could write your covert program. I'm a covert expert. I'm gonna have a webinar on this and march of it was money driven, right? And I'm sorry. I think a lot of times that as a consultant say, Oh, yeah, I could do that. What is that? Right. Um, when you call somebody and I'll find on E think in that situation, that's a really good example to me of how how it could become dangerous very quickly. When you start relying on people who are not health professionals or they're they're saying they are knowledgeable in something that not even our best scientists in the country are knowledgeable about. Right? And so be careful putting yourself out there with these novel ideas or these opinion based theories on how to deal with people or how to communicate with people or etcetera, Um, because there's not a lot of research behind it.
[00:35:58] spk_0: All right, well, it's not just being it's
[00:36:01] spk_1: not just it's not just you and and that's like, I mean, I could rant on that. Honestly, Sheldon, four days on it, because, um, while I have definite opinions on safety and different topics, um, I also know and have the humility to know that I'm not always right, and that there is there is, um you know, I can adopt those opinions and not and not put them forth is true. Yeah, for me, it may be true for a couple of people,
[00:36:39] spk_0: and I know there's scientific method to everything. So I try to be objective even to the science deniers. If we're talking about Covic, you know, with people that are breathing into a four gas meter and saying, you know, this is what it is with the mass where you're breathing in carbon dioxide and now you're gonna get like, Come on, s o I in my mind, I started thinking, Okay, So what is their motivation? How much of this is really true? And then I try to decide, you know, maybe I need to be challenged. Maybe it's me that you know, that that's truly accepting epidemiologist and not challenging them either. So e get in that mindset as well. So, uh, I just it just really I don't know if it's just that is too easy to just build on things. Andi, I guess when safety differently started, they were building off a hop. A. But hop was built off of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and you know everything has a genesis before it gets to its final, uh, stage where we consume it. But e don't know. I
[00:37:50] spk_1: think we consume a lot of theories and not a lot of research
[00:37:53] spk_0: rule. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And then where do we go to get this research? Now is Thea Other thought is Where are you think? Tanks for safety and health. They do it in marketing all the time. But there isn't really any think tanks for safety health anymore.
[00:38:12] spk_1: Well, I mean, I think if you're talking about products, right, the think tanks are at within the companies that are putting out some of the best products and safety, right? Eso that's not That's not an issue. What's that issue? Is people doing research in the theory? And so where are the think tanks? I mean, we lost one of the think tanks in the Liberty Mutual Safety Center That was out there. Yeah, in Hopkinton, Right. And, um, there aren't a lot of programs for safety and health, and you have to understand that that, you know, universities don't push people towards certain types of research. They facilitate what people are interested in, okay and So if let's say hop right is there is research on hop. But let's just let's just say something theory based, right? If there if it's out there and it's been marketed, fall enough, then why would you do research in it? Because you've been trained to believe that it's true, right? So if it's true, that's not a viable area toe look at
[00:39:24] spk_0: challenges to scientific method Just the basis of it. You know, the actual hypothesis, you know, challenges that.
[00:39:32] spk_1: Yeah. So where do you go? I mean, we need to get more people interested in research and more people questioning common, uh, commonly perceived opinions or perceptions. And, you know, the way to do it is on shows like your yours in mind. You know, talk about the regulations and where do you see that? And why are people thinking, You know, in your example, why do they think three points of contact is in the regulations? Well, it's not the regulations, but it may be in one of the one of the cited guidance documents in right. And so how many people know that? And are all the schools leading people to understand where all the programs, even or certificate programs. Are they leading? People don't understand the difference between regulation and guidance. Document and incorporation by reference. Yeah, because what you're talking about when you say three points of contact, right? Well, can OSHA site on that? I mean, I think,
[00:40:43] spk_0: uh, they they used thio. But what they'll do is they'll cite on their wording, which is one hand. You must have one hand, but it Xena end up being in the summary. But they're citing off of their standard
[00:41:02] spk_1: e e don't know if I answered your question,
[00:41:07] spk_0: but, uh, since this is going in my my 100th leading up to my 100th episode, what kind of advice do you have for me for for beyond 100
[00:41:18] spk_1: beyond 100? Um, man, you want me to be a genie?
[00:41:27] spk_0: Yeah. What should I What's my my words of wisdom? Let me get some of that executive coaching that you're giving out to
[00:41:34] spk_1: people. E o. Do you want to expand what you're doing beyond safety consulting? Um, you know, I'm a big proponent of you. Give some things for free that you think the world needs to know, right? And so you know I'm not familiar with all of your body of work, but I think what people need to know that's that's valuable to consultants is, uh, part of that out of vets people out of at a consultant. What? You probably have been over at some point your career and how toe vet those subcontractors that they need in order to do their job well and so e I took a I'm gonna give you an example again. And I took a my PhD program. I took a course in environmental impact statements, which I'm sorry, I'm gonna apologize for this before I say it. What's useless and the reason I say it was useless is because there are people for that. Okay. And s 01 of the things that you can help people understand is you don't have to do everything yourself. There are people from many things, and consultants serve that purpose. There's a consultant for environmental impact stables. There's a consultant for wastewater engineering, and there are laboratories that will help you do that data and, you know, qualified data, etcetera. And there are equipment companies that
[00:43:11] spk_0: will help you decide what equipment is best for your purpose. So those
[00:43:17] spk_1: are the things that I would focus on because I think a lot of consultants that probably follow you and probably look to you for advice. Need that type of, uh, continuing education continuing knowledge.
[00:43:35] spk_0: Excellent. Thank you. I appreciate that. Coming back to for especially so short. I looked it up. I had you back in September. Uh, your Johnny on the spot when I asked.
[00:43:50] spk_1: Yeah. I'll come back anytime.
[00:43:52] spk_0: I appreciate you, Linda, so much. You've been, ah, valued new friend to me. Yeah. Similar. Same with ditto, you know. All right. All right. See you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you again. All right. Thanks, Sheldon. Have a good one. All right. Bye. This episode has been powered by safety FM.
[00:00:15] spk_0: Welcome to the safety consultant. Podcast on your host, Sheldon. Primacy Thistles. The podcast where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. This'll Week is another episode going to a road to 100 we're gonna be talking to Dr Linda Martin, the Lorax Linda Martin is one of these people that I've just recently meant through the safety FM family. But it feels like I needed her in my life years ago, and I probably did. She has been really good Thio get to know, and it's been fun. We had an episode earlier this year and actually not too long ago. But when I was deciding people that I really wanted to be part of my 100th episode, Linda was on that short list, and I'm so glad that she accepted. And who's going to be on this before we get to the podcast? I want to remind you guys to go ahead and subscribe to the podcast, and it would be really, really good if you could go ahead and do whatever uh, rating you wanna give me. It's up to you. Five star would be awesome. But, you know, I don't want to leave the witness here. However, you feel like you want to do that, that's great for me. I just really need the ratings, because what I'll do is it will pump me up in the rankings so that more people will be able to see that I have a show out there to help people that are gonna be safety consultants or, in the safety realm, Azaz well as entrepreneurs. Because that's really what we are received a consultant. So if you could do that for me, that would be really great. If you're feeling a little extra chickie now with that cheeky, it's a funny word. Anyway, if you're feeling a little bit extra that you want to do some work, go ahead and drop me a comment to be awesome to hear what you think about the show. People have been sending me stuff on Sheldon and Children primers dot com, and they've also been sending some information to me via LinkedIn. So go ahead and leave that comment for me. All right, so for this episode, Linda and I get right into it, and we really just start talking about a few things first about her crazy insane, just amount of work that she's doing. And she's one of these doctors that eyes Anat visor on. It comes to me that man, she's an executive coach. That's really what it boils down to. So we talked a little bit about what she's doing now, what she's learning. And then also a few ways that she coaches those that wanna become doctors. And then we also talked a lot about safety in itself and what we're seeing more as people who they don't really branch out to have an academic mind toward safety and health, and that could be a little bother of some. And also it could be misleading in times, and we talked a little bit about that, and we just talked about a little bit of everything quite honestly. That's what we do, and we get on the phone together. Me and Linda, I just love me some Laura X. She's really cool, You guys, we're gonna have a kick listening to her. And if you want to also listen to her episode, scroll down from the feed wherever you got me. Listen to this episode and they listen to our one on one on our previous interview. So after me and Linda get done, you're gonna hear the music to let you out, and then we're just gonna end the episode at that time. So I am going to tell you what I always tell you each week. But I tell you to be encouraged by, and that's go Kettle. What you been up to lately? I see you everywhere. What do you What have you been up, Thio? That you could share with the audience as faras from the last time that we had our episode? I believe that was in October. If I'm recalling right, I'll have toe check real quick. So a couple of months of pandemic and chaos election, all that stuff. But
[00:04:35] spk_1: e actually don't remember what we talked about, but yeah, let's see. What have I been up, Thio? I have 24 dissertation students. I don't know if you saw me post that on, uh, Lincoln, but I've been working a lot with dissertation students doing research, which I find to be fascinating because my students are all over the world, and, um, they're doing all kinds of different stuff. So while my PhD and my dissertation was in mindfulness, we're working on psychological safety. We're working on both proportional workforces. We're doing some research on pilot fatigue. Um, we're doing work on military fatigue, which is a really interesting thing. You wouldn't think that co vid um you know, covitz affected everything, and it's even affected the military. I have one student. That's ah, uh, drill instructor. Uh, and his unit have to quarantine when they come in for their training, but also, when drill instructors cycle out, they have to quarantine when they come back in. And so is putting extra, um, stress on the people that are left to train. And so they're doing extra hours and extra shifts and etcetera. So, um, you know, covitz upset everything?
[00:06:12] spk_0: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:13] spk_1: Eso I've got a couple who was working in that Kogan realm and e basically basically been working on that. I've been working on the podcast, Aziz, you have seen through E. Lincoln and other sources trying to get my voice out there and trying to change the paradigm.
[00:06:32] spk_0: Like if you were gonna say your time for dissertations and because you now have to and my brother's done this. He's a doctor in sociology. I believe eso he had. He went through it years and years and years where he had someone who you know, he had to report to someone in your position when he was doing his dissertation and research. He had to dio And I'm thinking you have to probably match that intensity. But for 27 students,
[00:07:03] spk_1: 24 24 right now. But it will be more in the spring, I think, depending on how many on the signs. But, um, you know, I consider what I do with PhD students, more poaching thin anything. And, um, you traditionally, um, you choose a chair right after you do your comprehensive exams and your courses, whereas when you coming to Capitol Tech, it's a European model. So you're just researching basically until you're done right, And so they're assigned to me and we I walk these people through the process of, you know, do you have an idea for a topic you do? How do you narrow it? How do you do the research that helps you know what's been done before and what is incrementally better than what's out there in the body of body of research already. And then, you know, I mean weekly with some people. I mean bi weekly, biweekly with other people. And we talked through where they're at and what my thoughts are about how to move forward. And, you know, I would say a capital tech. The research process is, you know, for a really ambitious student is three years right for other students, that's longer. And it just depends on the student, right? I have I have a student that that never wants to talk to me. They just they just want to research and they do a great job with it and we meet once a month. Um, but I have other students that, um, need a lot of coaches, and that's fine, too. That's just that's just who they are, right?
[00:08:52] spk_0: So you're an executive coach?
[00:08:55] spk_1: Kind of. Yeah, it's It's kind of weird that way. Although I'm learning in the process about other areas of safety that maybe aren't my expertise areas, I would say, Um, but I e read a lot of literature and research in those areas in orderto augment what I'm doing. E think coaches do that too, right? I mean, they look at where you're at and what you're doing and what you're into, and then try toe advise you the next steps are, um it seems
[00:09:30] spk_0: like you're doing like, to me. It seems like it's it's, ah, a different version of troubleshooting. But with people. So in this kitchen, instead of, you know, situations, our machinery or something else. So the person is telling you, uh, of mystery to them. You have to understand the missing piece, whatever it is, then Now you go in, uh, basically, you know, look at each variable and then try to see how to how to take out the variables that are nonsense and then put in, you know, the pieces that this is what you really want. This is
[00:10:12] spk_1: Yeah, in a way, that's that's kind of what I'm doing. I mean, I feel, um the way I described it toe one student was, you know, I'm the litmus for when you get to the end, because at the end you have to defend this body of research. And so
[00:10:31] spk_0: in a group like what, three or four people?
[00:10:33] spk_1: Yeah. And they're asking you questions on your statistics, and they're asking you questions on you know why you did. Why you picked a topic. And why is this different than what already exists? And you're asking you all these questions. And so, um, I'm that person that during the three years is putting up the guard rails, right? And the bumpers you could guard where guardrails or bumpers, whichever you want, Right? Because what happens is when you research, you tend to kind of throw out all these technicals in areas and what you want to do for the four people 45 people that are gonna be asking you those questions is put up discreet guardrails so that they can't go outside the guardrails, right, that the questions are already answered. And those branches of the tree are truncated so that it leads them to the point that you're trying to make
[00:11:29] spk_0: your leading the witness,
[00:11:31] spk_1: uh, in a way, right, in a way. So it's really easy in in academia and research to go down the wormhole. Right? And the point of a dissertation is to show additional, um, in addition to the body of knowledge that doesn't exist. And so whereas you don't want to go down the wormhole. You also don't want your dissertation committee to start asking questions outside of what your point is, which, you know, at the end of your defense, you should have made that point. And, um, where questions are welcome are in. How you got to that point? Uh, yeah,
[00:12:15] spk_0: absolutely. It does, because I saw my brother going through the process when he had Thio. His final dissertation was basically he were from a Afro Caribbean community. Were born and raised in Guyana, where I was I was born in in America, but I became a Chinese citizen later on. But hey was just truly looking at how the family structure is with religion, with expectations and everything in the Caribbean mindset, and had to defend, you know, all the other different stimulus. Everything else that would have also affected that child powers is different than a Caribbean versus, you know, someone from a Nordic nation or someone, Bill. So he had to really try toe, you know, figure out. Okay, well, from the Caribbean mindset, you're coming, and he had to go all the way back to like slavery. And, you know, he really had to start thinking of what created this. And then he had to define a culture. And then from there he really had Thio go into how now the descendants of these people, how we feel some of the some of the distant depression, but then also a few other things. That's a driving factor. So that's why, in some cases you see someone in the Caribbean doing like six or seven jobs, you know, and they're still feeling like they're lazy.
[00:13:38] spk_1: E must be from the Caribbean, then.
[00:13:41] spk_0: Yeah, No kidding,
[00:13:43] spk_1: e I feel like I'm lazy all the time. I mean, you kind of brought up. I have, ah, student in Dominica, and, uh, she's looking at safety management systems from their government regulatory, uh, framework. And, uh, it's really interesting. You know, what you just described about your brother is that she has to describe everything that's leading up to what their structure is on dominica on on an island, um, and how safety management systems, or or a regulatory structure for a safety management system could be put in place. That there, uh, that fits their culture, and that also fits. The type of business is on the island. So, um, I mean again that that's something that I've never would have thought I would be helping the research. And there it iss right
[00:14:44] spk_0: so great for you, because that makes you so it keeps depositing into your knowledge base and then also from that I can imagine with your personality. You know, true, you're saying it likes you up in getting that knowledge base. But then you might also be inspired to do something else. So that leads me to think, Are you creating a book or a course or everything else? Because of of all these deposits that you're getting from all your your students,
[00:15:13] spk_1: Well, I'm I'm not. Maybe I'll create a book on how to coach the dissertation students. And I thought about doing some live streams on how toe kind of coach people through dissertations quote yourself through a dissertation because there are a lot of traditional, um, HD programs where the students don't get a lot of help on how to research or how toe narrow or how toe. And so I thought, I mean, I give a lot of knowledge away for free just because I think we should. We shouldn't horde our knowledge. We should We should actually share it. What a concept, Right. And so, um, if you've seen some of my live streams lately on LinkedIn, I've been talking about where you get stuff for free, right? And that may not be good for the safety consultants
[00:16:00] spk_0: and helping us needs. And through all the things that you've been talking about lately, E watch you write.
[00:16:08] spk_1: And, um, but writing a book. I mean, I've got four books in the works with Wiley Publishing right now, and so I've got to get those done by next year, so I there won't. There won't be any book on dissertations or anything like that until after the wily books. They're done.
[00:16:27] spk_0: Yeah, I remember I was on the under contract with L severe publishing ones to write a wastewater math book, and it was so taxing on. I still have never finished that book. I actually that's one of the things I I had to let go. So it was early in my career and I was trying to do too much, and I talked to the publisher and I'm like, Hold on, you got the science. Direct people l severe people contacting you to write. And here you are letting this and go. And I have a lot of guilt about that because truly, I felt like I let this publisher down. Who, you know, he found me, asked me to write the textbook. So you know, it wasn't it was truly academic. I had 300 pages ready and I gave it to room. I said, Here's my 300 pages. I just can't get to the bottom of this And they have part of my my work already. But I really know what it's like when you're on that That constraint of publishers, especially for academia.
[00:17:27] spk_1: So So I actually on the four projects. I have three co writers on free the books. So that helps. And one of them I'm writing myself on cybersecurity and construction, and that's kind of more of a smaller book. So I think I could handle that myself. So the cybersecurity, one cybersecurity and construction, incredible critical infrastructure. That's gonna be a shorter book. It's gonna be more like a you know, like a paperback where the other are gonna be pretty big textbook. So, um, I said I must be Caribbean and dissent because you like to do eight or nine jobs. That's 100% me. It's like I feel like, um e did learn to say no to things for a while. E that
[00:18:23] spk_0: you learn to say, Now,
[00:18:24] spk_1: how did I learn to say now? Yeah. Um Well, uh, I too personal trial and tribulation. And I think when your home life starts to suffer, you know, your marriage starts to suffer. It's, um it's very easy to start putting things in perspective. And I think also the pandemic put things in perspective to me. And I've slowed down a lot. You wouldn't think I have. Um But I do say no to things that take a lot of time. I say no to things that cut into the evening time with my family. Um, so I think a personal reckoning has made me slow down. Um, but I still feel like I have plenty of time to do things. E mean, big posts, market, the podcast, the livestream writing, working with dissertation students teaching e.
[00:19:33] spk_0: I had to do the same thing. You know, my wife and I, we've been married 23 years, so you know, when you get through that, you get those the ups and downs, and you know the times where you're telling you. All right, we've got to be done in a certain amount of time, because when you're your own boss, no one tells you to clock in or a clock out. So the time just keeps going, and I found myself even yesterday. It 6 30. I'm writing a proposal. Yeah,
[00:19:59] spk_1: and it's easy to get caught up in that, right? I mean, it's easy to when you're making money, especially as a consultant, because I've been a consultant. Andi, I've been on my own that it's hard to say no when the money is good and it's hard to say no when you like the client on, it's hard to say no when it's something new and fun and exciting and a site that you've never assisted with before. And so, um, you know, again, what helped me start to say no was was I have enough e had to start telling me I have enough and the extra money is great and, um, e to me, it's more important to be with my Children and Thio maintain a relationship with my wife than it is to have an extra 500 bucks in my pocket.
[00:20:52] spk_0: Yeah, and I think it challenged me personally when I weigh. Had those discussions that weren't really fun, we I I really had to challenge myself to say, Is it time management? Is it escape? Is, um, you know, meaning for me personally, um, I just trying to escape from something. And here I am, Porter myself in tow work. Is it unbalanced in my life where all of a sudden, you know, it becomes easier for me to do work than to take the time to meditate or something similar to that? Or is it just flat out thinking of the future? You know, because there's a consultant, you gotta pay for everything yourself. And if you see in your calendar, all of a sudden things go away in January February like, all right, I gotta do something to get some money coming in for those two months.
[00:21:39] spk_1: It's stressful being a consultant, especially if you're on your own and what I always tell people when they talk about going into consulting or I wanna want Oh, my own business I say, You know, for me, it it It was always easier to put my hand out and get a paycheck. Right? When you're a consultant in your on your own, you may have a tremendously good mind, and then the next month make nothing right. And, you know, hopefully that evens out as you go along. But a lot of consultants don't make it because there is a lot of stress of I made a lot of money. Now there's a couple of down months on when you do with that time, right? So you start pouring yourself in your work because you have thio pay the bills, you have to pick your own insurance. You have to pay insurance for the business. You need to make sure that money is coming in for your family, whether it's for school or for food or for shelter. And you know, I give you a lot of credit because consulting is not an easy road, especially if you're so brighter.
[00:22:50] spk_0: Yeah, and we get back expenses quite a bit to help make that work, too. So it's truly you know, the balance of how can you How can you make this work for a long term. If you still know your goals, what's the thing for this? And right now we're caregivers and we would not have been able to do this for two years, caregiving full time without being flexible. Eso that's the give and take of you know what we do is consultants is like, Yes, I know there's not security where I could put my hand out and get a paycheck because there's a consult. You put your hand out and nothing comes back. It didn't work eso But the trade off is when you actually need the time on the flexibility mobility to do things you can, and I value that a little bit more. So,
[00:23:41] spk_1: yeah, eso I've achieved that with my teaching, right? So I teach online and I coach Jim Paul like we're doing now and I do some consulting, but it's not my primary thing that I dio. I have a couple of clients that just keep coming back, and I can't say no. I write books. I do the podcast, which makes enough money to pay for my equipment. So far, um, but there is flexibility and everything that I do and I need that. I finally found out in my fifties that I need that and so I could take my kids to school. That's my job in the morning to take my kids to school and then I work. Um, and I've also learned to shut off at 4 35 o'clock for the most part because I'm not doing a live stream or an interview interview so that I can put what's most important before, which is kids in my wife.
[00:24:44] spk_0: Excellent. Two questions. I know you got the time constraint today, one of the questions that I was thinking of And, uh, I heard you talking about this, uh, in one of your shows when you're mentioning about being a consultant for a company and you're helping them hire someone in safety and they couldn't tell you as a trainer, what they train on and, uh, one of the questions you ask them Well, what do you train on? And they couldn't answer that As I recall your story right on your podcast episode. So are you still seeing stuff like that where people are faking their resume or they just don't grasp the basics of safety and health. But yet they're looking for a job in safety and health or even as a consultant. They say they are. And you're like, you're a little lacking. You can't answer my questions here.
[00:25:38] spk_1: So all of the all of the above, right? This this company was looking for a safety director with 10 years of experience. And so I mean, everybody has in their mind what a safety director with 10 years of experience should look like, right? Possibly a certification, possibly the cost or the cross them. Right. But, you know, I was getting resumes of people who just fell into safety, and we're doing project safety. Um, similar Thio Hobart came along and safety was one of the first things to go with a lot of companies and but they But they were hiring safety professionals that we were taking temperatures and doing covert monitoring, but had no background in safety used to People are now looking for jobs to fill the safety director positions that they have no business applying for. E mean that that's my thing. And these resumes were coming through, and, you know, I mean, it would be like I would think you would have the same kind of skepticism the resumes would come through and I would read them. The company was not savvy enough to read them themselves, but I would read them and I would say, I gotta ask the question because I don't think this guy knows what this guy or gal knows what's on their resume. And it was It was shocking sometimes that, you know, maybe they've just taken to somebody else's resume and just put it on there or, you know, or they don't really understand that safety is a career choice in a profession as opposed to a title or a better paycheck than what they're making. Or, you know, I mean, some of some of the people that were submitting resumes had things on the resumes. They couldn't articulate, like what they trained on or what they were qualified to train on. Or, um, you know, they were doing safety for somebody. But really, what they were was a glorified security guard, right? Somebody to drive around and scare the heck out of people that they're driving around
[00:27:53] spk_0: someone that was enforcer. You know, Where's your heart had right about your safety glasses and that's what they say. I was in safe.
[00:28:00] spk_1: Yeah, I was in safety. Um, and it's really hard to hire, at least on the East Coast. Here where I am, I've had a lot of reach out saying, Can you help me? You know, can you put out the word about this? I want to get a person with five or 10 years of experience, and they're just, um maybe it's the East Coast, but they're just scarce. Uh, and, um, either they're not looking for work or people are engaged, or this is just the area of the country that we're in right now. I don't know, but I saw very few resumes come through that E would consider five or 10 year experience people that could do the job. E
[00:28:49] spk_0: kind of leads me, Thio. Other question I was thinking about because if people are accumulating years but not accumulating knowledge or they're accumulating years and they're not actually bettering themselves, then that first leads me to What does it say about the acceptance of that kind of stagnant life in our industry that we say, Yeah, that's good. That's that's happened. That means that we're not as professional, as we say we are. And then the second thing that leads me is it's also I've seen this a lot in in, um, people that are saying statements and then also adjusting even into beliefs that don't have the proper peer review or even not even ifit's peer reviewed. But, you know, that would be great if they even go that far. But it seems like border conspiracy theory stuff that is being thrown into the safety well realm. And you're like, how can you safety professionals get away or even think that they could just drop down this this philosophy, this thought process without trying to vet it in any way? It just drives me nuts. And I'm thinking someone like you, you must drive you more nuts than me because
[00:30:14] spk_1: it drives me crazy. Okay, so So just because you say something, I just talked about this last night with Michael Bowman and Nate Bremen, and, um, it drives me crazy when we trot around and and we I mean, I was probably one of those people at at at some point, and we say blah, blah, blah culture or blah, blah, blah pop or blah blah, blah, blah, multicultural. All these buzz words, right? And much of it is opinion based much of it. And if we say it enough, it becomes reality. Tow us, right? And then if we say it, even Maura, because reality, the people around us. But there's really no hard research around some of the things that you're reading in safety magazines, like professional safety, right? It's a summary or a meta analysis what's already out there, which doesn't constitute research. It constitutes accumulation of thought. It constitutes accumulation of opinion, but not accumulation of knowledge and furthering of knowledge does that. Yeah,
[00:31:38] spk_0: Okay, that's what I thought because we in the industry, we need to shit up. People pull down all kinds of bullshit and we just eat it up and we think, Oh, yeah, that's it. Let's go for this. This is the next best thing in safety, and I even see it with basic OSHA regulations. People argue with me with basic OSHA regulations, and I'm a ocean rag specialist. I know eggs. I can memorize some of these things. And when they tell me this, I'm like, Okay, show me. And when they don't like for instance. You know, ladders, who everyone here is three points of contact Thio end to descend a ladder Nowhere in the regulations, as it ever say. Three points of contact. It's not in there, but people
[00:32:21] spk_1: are. I line. You know, it's a guideline, but you're not gonna be cited for it.
[00:32:27] spk_0: No, and truly, it's things like that. But that's on the basic side. But now I'm thinking people with philosophy, you know, you say hop to somebody and they're truly thinking, you know, the word of human organization and how they perform. I'm like, Yeah, basic. But you gotta go through all the different things that build up to it. And then even with the behavioral based safety side, and people are going around hammering people for doing at risk behaviors instead of actually looking for safe behaviors and and coaching them through that, the mindset that I've seen is you get a little drop of theory and they meaning the safety professionals out there and all of a sudden it just gets run with as being and then augmented to whatever seats them in their own situation that it becomes so diluted, not peer reviewed. No one's doing, you know, focus groups or anything similar to that exception. Studies or gap analysis, research. Nothing. And it's driving me crazy. And I keep thinking of you every time I see something. Linda is a professional at this. She's probably going nuts.
[00:33:42] spk_1: Yeah, even before I got into the you know, the dissertation stuff in the PhD in the research, I always have taken things with a grain of salt, right? And maybe that's maybe that's how I was raised was okay, What is truth? Okay, there's truth to me and there's truth to you and there's truth to somebody else and the loudest person speaking their truth. A lot of times becomes the political expert, and I think that's a really dangerous thing when it comes to safety and I'll give you an example. So the pandemic, right? When March came and the pandemic was starting and people were starting to talk about Cove in every single not every single most safety consultants for all of all of a sudden covert experts novel virus, all all of a sudden they were advertising. I could write your covert program. I'm a covert expert. I'm gonna have a webinar on this and march of it was money driven, right? And I'm sorry. I think a lot of times that as a consultant say, Oh, yeah, I could do that. What is that? Right. Um, when you call somebody and I'll find on E think in that situation, that's a really good example to me of how how it could become dangerous very quickly. When you start relying on people who are not health professionals or they're they're saying they are knowledgeable in something that not even our best scientists in the country are knowledgeable about. Right? And so be careful putting yourself out there with these novel ideas or these opinion based theories on how to deal with people or how to communicate with people or etcetera, Um, because there's not a lot of research behind it.
[00:35:58] spk_0: All right, well, it's not just being it's
[00:36:01] spk_1: not just it's not just you and and that's like, I mean, I could rant on that. Honestly, Sheldon, four days on it, because, um, while I have definite opinions on safety and different topics, um, I also know and have the humility to know that I'm not always right, and that there is there is, um you know, I can adopt those opinions and not and not put them forth is true. Yeah, for me, it may be true for a couple of people,
[00:36:39] spk_0: and I know there's scientific method to everything. So I try to be objective even to the science deniers. If we're talking about Covic, you know, with people that are breathing into a four gas meter and saying, you know, this is what it is with the mass where you're breathing in carbon dioxide and now you're gonna get like, Come on, s o I in my mind, I started thinking, Okay, So what is their motivation? How much of this is really true? And then I try to decide, you know, maybe I need to be challenged. Maybe it's me that you know, that that's truly accepting epidemiologist and not challenging them either. So e get in that mindset as well. So, uh, I just it just really I don't know if it's just that is too easy to just build on things. Andi, I guess when safety differently started, they were building off a hop. A. But hop was built off of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission and you know everything has a genesis before it gets to its final, uh, stage where we consume it. But e don't know. I
[00:37:50] spk_1: think we consume a lot of theories and not a lot of research
[00:37:53] spk_0: rule. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And then where do we go to get this research? Now is Thea Other thought is Where are you think? Tanks for safety and health. They do it in marketing all the time. But there isn't really any think tanks for safety health anymore.
[00:38:12] spk_1: Well, I mean, I think if you're talking about products, right, the think tanks are at within the companies that are putting out some of the best products and safety, right? Eso that's not That's not an issue. What's that issue? Is people doing research in the theory? And so where are the think tanks? I mean, we lost one of the think tanks in the Liberty Mutual Safety Center That was out there. Yeah, in Hopkinton, Right. And, um, there aren't a lot of programs for safety and health, and you have to understand that that, you know, universities don't push people towards certain types of research. They facilitate what people are interested in, okay and So if let's say hop right is there is research on hop. But let's just let's just say something theory based, right? If there if it's out there and it's been marketed, fall enough, then why would you do research in it? Because you've been trained to believe that it's true, right? So if it's true, that's not a viable area toe look at
[00:39:24] spk_0: challenges to scientific method Just the basis of it. You know, the actual hypothesis, you know, challenges that.
[00:39:32] spk_1: Yeah. So where do you go? I mean, we need to get more people interested in research and more people questioning common, uh, commonly perceived opinions or perceptions. And, you know, the way to do it is on shows like your yours in mind. You know, talk about the regulations and where do you see that? And why are people thinking, You know, in your example, why do they think three points of contact is in the regulations? Well, it's not the regulations, but it may be in one of the one of the cited guidance documents in right. And so how many people know that? And are all the schools leading people to understand where all the programs, even or certificate programs. Are they leading? People don't understand the difference between regulation and guidance. Document and incorporation by reference. Yeah, because what you're talking about when you say three points of contact, right? Well, can OSHA site on that? I mean, I think,
[00:40:43] spk_0: uh, they they used thio. But what they'll do is they'll cite on their wording, which is one hand. You must have one hand, but it Xena end up being in the summary. But they're citing off of their standard
[00:41:02] spk_1: e e don't know if I answered your question,
[00:41:07] spk_0: but, uh, since this is going in my my 100th leading up to my 100th episode, what kind of advice do you have for me for for beyond 100
[00:41:18] spk_1: beyond 100? Um, man, you want me to be a genie?
[00:41:27] spk_0: Yeah. What should I What's my my words of wisdom? Let me get some of that executive coaching that you're giving out to
[00:41:34] spk_1: people. E o. Do you want to expand what you're doing beyond safety consulting? Um, you know, I'm a big proponent of you. Give some things for free that you think the world needs to know, right? And so you know I'm not familiar with all of your body of work, but I think what people need to know that's that's valuable to consultants is, uh, part of that out of vets people out of at a consultant. What? You probably have been over at some point your career and how toe vet those subcontractors that they need in order to do their job well and so e I took a I'm gonna give you an example again. And I took a my PhD program. I took a course in environmental impact statements, which I'm sorry, I'm gonna apologize for this before I say it. What's useless and the reason I say it was useless is because there are people for that. Okay. And s 01 of the things that you can help people understand is you don't have to do everything yourself. There are people from many things, and consultants serve that purpose. There's a consultant for environmental impact stables. There's a consultant for wastewater engineering, and there are laboratories that will help you do that data and, you know, qualified data, etcetera. And there are equipment companies that
[00:43:11] spk_0: will help you decide what equipment is best for your purpose. So those
[00:43:17] spk_1: are the things that I would focus on because I think a lot of consultants that probably follow you and probably look to you for advice. Need that type of, uh, continuing education continuing knowledge.
[00:43:35] spk_0: Excellent. Thank you. I appreciate that. Coming back to for especially so short. I looked it up. I had you back in September. Uh, your Johnny on the spot when I asked.
[00:43:50] spk_1: Yeah. I'll come back anytime.
[00:43:52] spk_0: I appreciate you, Linda, so much. You've been, ah, valued new friend to me. Yeah. Similar. Same with ditto, you know. All right. All right. See you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you again. All right. Thanks, Sheldon. Have a good one. All right. Bye. This episode has been powered by safety FM.
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