this is edited it. This show is brought to you by safety Safety FM dotted line. Hello and welcome to safety FM. This is Jay Allen. This is also doing is the G l and Show. So why did I call it Safety FM today? Well, we're here today because we're going to celebrate our two year anniversary. Yeah, believe it or not, it's already been two years, so let's get that one started. It begins in Orlando, Florida, and Travelstead lated West beaming across North America and planet your hair world of safety never stops.  And now the safety FM podcast and broadcast with Dr J. Allen. This episode of the broadcast and the podcast is brought to you by safety focused moments. They're consultants that want to help you get the safety culture you've been looking for. For more information, go to safety. Focus moment dot com. So I have to tell you, from the very start, I normally have a very hard time with retrospective episodes. But I don't feel like this is what this is going to be. And yes, I know that the radio station has also called safety of them, just in case you're wondering that from the very beginning.  But as I look at this, I go, Wow, what an amazing time. This has been over these last two years coming to you twice a week on a weekly basis, having some discussions on what's going on inside of the safety world. And that's of just on this show. We're not talking about what safety FM the radio station, has become because of you. So as I go through this today, what I would like to do is really thank you for allowing us to do what we do here.  It's safety FM and you taking a listen to the J. Allen show over the last couple of years. I know that it originally start off with a different name more along the lines of Safety FM. But man, has it been an experience so far? So as we go through this today, what I would love to do is have a discussion with you about some of the episodes that we've done so far and really sit back and enjoy some of the things that have occurred till this point with safety FM because of you, the listener.  So let's not hold up much longer and let's get that thing started right now. On the J. Allen show, you are listening to a renowned safety experts, Dr J. Allen on safety FM changing safety cultures one broadcast in one podcast at a time. Join the fun on social media and find us on Facebook at safety a van. So originally when we started this show, it really was more along the lines of being able to answer questions and take deep dies and two things that were going on inside of the world of safety.  As we progress more and more, we decided to make it more along the lines of an interview style show and then still have the opportunity to take the dive of what's going on inside of the world of safety with the many episodes and that's is giving my perspective. But what I wanted to do was really sit down with some people and take these deep dives into some of the conversations on what was going line inside of the safety world. And I have to tell you the first person that I approach to regards being interviewed for the show was Dr Scott E. Geller, and boy when he came on, It was an exciting time.  It was a world wind. I loved every single moment of the episode, and I would love to be able to share a little bit of it with you here today. Take a listen. It's really how do you drive into that CEO? How do you drive it to that blind level employees where they can totally understand that you're trying to do? There's within the best interest for them. It's a great that is a key question and has to start with them wanting to improve. I mean, what do you know?  It's interesting that when you have a fatality or serious injury, all of us, well, we better do something about safety that's reactive. It's tough to be proactive. It takes You know what it takes. Years of psychology, term, emotional, intelligence, emotional intelligence is, is being proactive, and that's that's tough to do because in fact, some companies, when they're doing well and they want to save money, the first people let go of the safety people. It's very sad because they don't see the big picture. They're not system sinkers.  They're just narrow minded thinking suis certain positive consequences. That's what I'm after. I'm gaining. But Aiken gay now, but not thinking of the long term that takes emotional intelligence. I have to tell you to this day when I go back and take a listen to some of the older episodes, I struggle because sound quality. But that was such good information that Scott was sharing their on that cliff. And this is some of these gems that I've been able to find as we're doing this retrospective. I'll tell you, I try to sit here and go through every single episode when I said, There's just no way there's too many toads to be able to go through And this will make this way too long.  And I don't want to sit here and kind of give you a readout of every single episode that we ever recorded anything that might be a little bit difficult to do as well. Over the next few episodes, though, it became interesting the following episode we had James Kendrick. Come on. And then we also had a song from a country singer by the name of Jay Allen. Yeah, we kind of found him because of my name, of course, but it was a very interesting song. Now I will tell you till this day the episode would James, Skipper Kendrick and Geri Allen the country singer, not me is the most downloaded episode of the podcast.  I always have found that very interesting in regards of that in when I look at this episode or listen to the episode Skipper gave such great information. I had just discovered him at the American Society of Safety Engineers before they did the name change, but he had covered in one of its glasses so much information that I was truly impressed on what he had to share. So let's take a listen to some of this is I don't subscribe to this thing of safety. First, our business is satisfying. Customer.  The mission. It's making money. If we don't do that, we're not in business. But I'm not suggesting that safeties last, either, that if we can pull together and understand what we are understanding elements of business acumen understand the management tools that are already in their toolbox and just apply them to safety. As we applied each of the other elements of the business, then we don't have to put safety first. It's definitely not last, but just treat us equal so that safety's an equal part of your culture, just as the other elements of this business acumen would be.  And if so, I think we'd be far, far better off resident trying to do something for business and then doing something for safety. The next few episodes were pretty interesting as well. We got to interview different people doing some different things. Got under. Also interview a very close friend of mine by the name of Steve System, who ended up coming on to the station and started his own show safety talks. And that show ran for about a year before Steve had actually even start doing some other things, which was totally understood.  But right after Steve Systems interview, I was able to do an interview with Dr Todd Conklin. Now this is an interview that I had been pursuing for a little bit of time, trying to get it all accomplished. So I was very in shock when Todd agreed to come on to the show, not realizing at the time how much things were going to change for me. because of this one interview with Dr Todd Conklin. Take a listen here on what happened, Theo? Just a curiosity. How did you come up with the concept of human organisational performance?  So the names really interesting? I'm not in love with that name Imagination, but when they started the program, I m po and really I mean, it's been a There's a lot of people to thank James Reason was a part of this in the Institute for Nuclear Power operations. That tempo, they were part of it. Tony Bashara Shame Bush. There's a whole bunch of names in there we usedto call it human performance. And, uh, human performance is really good unless you're in the nuke industry, because then you couldn't use the abbreviation HP because that actually stood for help visit.  So we started calling at eight. You on. That didn't really work as well, either. And when it started rolling out of the nuke industry into the rest of the world, this is a long time ago. There was the real pushback around calling it human performance, partially because it was kind of getting confused with human factors. And that's fair because the definition we used for human factors in the United States is quite different than the definition that used for human factors in Europe. So there was some keep confusion there.  And then there was this notion that it was still pretty focused directly on workers, and the unions really had a hard time with rolling out a program called Human Performance because it focused on their members. So they spread out the idea and said, Well, let's call it human and organisational performance and really a guy named Kurt Kruger who is a blast from the past name. He sort of coined the phrase because he was doing a lot of work in Europe at the time and saw that that potential name sort of being a part of of the new angle.  It's also got a thing about these new ideas. Is that what you call him? It's kind of like a movement, right? What? Your column is sort of organic. So for a long time we call that new view safety for safety differently that the name that's kind of sticking now, but what it really is, it's safety that's focused away from sort of the Big three. We don't we don't see the workers of the problem with you the workers. This solution when you see the workers of solution and you want to go out national workers, what they need and what really happens is we change the definition of safety.  So traditionally and a lot of people that are listening to this, we'll tell you that safety is measured by the absence of failure. So we actually measure the ocean report of all numbers TRC and heart rate. We measure how many people we hurt. And obviously, if you hurt a lot of people, you suck it safety. But if you hurt fewer people than you, really super good it, Davey. Well, that is kind of a notion of looking at safety Is an output to be achieved or now put to be managed?  What hop does or what human performance does is it actually redefined safety not as an output but as the capacity. So safety is not an end product safety the way you do the work, So think of capacity. The way you think about a gas tank in your car is that you manage the amount of gas you have based upon the trip you're gonna take Gonna take a long trip. You want your tank to be full because you don't want to run out of gas. Because if you run out of gas, you can't function.  So you manage the capacity, manage the ability to fail and fail safely way continue down the path year of discussing what has happened so far with safety FM over the last two years. At this particular point in this retrospective, this is when I have the opportunity to meet Jill James. Now she hosts a podcast known as the Accidental Safety Bro. I found that podcast and I surely did fall in love with how she actually had it structured. And she was someone I want to get on the show right away and see what we could do together, potentially in the very near future.  And this is how it turned out accidentally. Like like many of us in the in the profession. I was finishing up my undergrad degree in community health education, and I needed to find an internship. And this was the early nineties and the job market was pretty competitive. And I was looking at a list of internships and seeing things like American Red Cross longs associations like that and, um, at the very bottom of the list, I saw Department of Transportation and I thought and it said Safety and I thought, Well, nobody's gonna want that. What?  Safety? That sounds totally boring. It won't be competitive. I'll be able to get an internship, and I'll be able to get my degree done. And so, um, I contacted the Department of Transportation, applied for the internship, I got it, and I found myself at a D. O T office, learning about workplace safety for the first time. My undergrad program had had one class on safety, but it was more like sort of personal safety stuff, not industrial safety. And when I got to the D. O. T, all of the safety directors around the state who are assigned different regions were telling me, Hey, kid, everybody called me kids.  I'm in my early twenties. Hey, kid, you should go to the University of Minnesota. You should get your master's degree in safety like we did, and then you build to get a job and build a path for student loans. And this isn't that bad of an industry, and you should do that. And so I you know, I learned enough about what workplace safety might be about to go. Yeah. Okay, maybe I'll take all these guys advices. And when I say guys, I mean guys, all men who had those jobs at the time, and that's what I did.  I went to the university and got my master's degree in industrial safety. And while I was doing that, my family was asking me since I was the first person to ever go to college in my family if they were asking me What do you What do you need? What kind of job you gotta get with this? Like, what is that? And I said, I don't know. I suppose I could work for like, oh sh r something. And And I was finishing up my degree and needed to find another internship and found one at the Department of Military Affairs working and a military base.  So the further down the path that would go, the more people I would find in man, I was all confused on what to do next on who to have come on and do the interview and we had quite a few people. Come on. And then we start to get a waiting list in regard to people who want to come on and share their stories. What was going on inside of the world of safety Around the same time I discovered this great person, this great teacher in a your call and Astros.  You'd be willing to come onto the show. She agreed to it. So listen to this portion of my interview with Andrea Baker. So when you go in and you start having the conversations and you try to tell him how it applies to real life opposed to, you know, just being the work side and then you turn around and you tell them that the new view of safety is a philosophy and not a program, how does that conversation normally go? To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure that people under or even have a good frame of mind Teoh understand that it's not a program until maybe after the entire discussion.  So I currently help people sort of up front in the discussions to try to create a new paradigm, or at least a new schema in somebody's mind. of No, this isn't the traditional. Um, you know, we trained these groups of people, and then we write these procedures and we roll out the tools and that it doesn't quite work that way. Um, I don't think that it click with people until we discussed it again at the end, after all of the discussions and then that people see, um, that it is.  The contents are embedded in everything. I also use some visual from the Matrix. Help. Understand? There's a lot of truth behind the truth and that that sometimes helped people see that this isn't just how we view this, your safety kind of how we view the world, but yeah, I don't know that it picked originally, I don't think it doesn't really don't, because it didn't for me. Um, I personally tried to roll it out of the program first because I didn't have any other map. No one had ever told me that I was trying to make a culture change.  You actually wasn't until I I started doing some research on culture change that I even understood that there could be a map somewhere on culture change. And, um, UNICEF taught me a lot about that. They have some public documents that are available on the Web that you could just read through. And they talk about how they plan out a social norm change within a country. Uh, that started to give me a little bit of hope that you could do it within an organization. So if a group of people could go into an entire country where they don't control the means of communication and they have to, you know, sort of beg, borrow and steal even to get a message out to people And they are successful in changing the understanding of the world for an entire country than you know, I think we can do it within an organization where we have a captive audience.  Then we also, you know, have not an entire sector worth of individuals working that right. We just have the individual that we've hired. So we've already got a natural filtering process of the people that are working there, So yeah, so I until you give people a new model. I think it is very hard to picture what a culture change looks like. And I have to tell you during the next interview. It was quite interesting. Here's what ended up taking place. I had a scheduled interview that was supposed to take place in all of a sudden, at the last moment, the person had cancelled.  We release episodes on Tuesday because you've been following along for a while. So you already know this? It was Monday afternoon, so I'm having my panic moment going. What am I going to dio? I don't have anyone to interview and we have an episode and supposed to come out tomorrow. So I go into the social media aspects and I say, Hey, if there's anyone interested in being interviewed, please reach out and let's see what we can do together. And this is how Rob Fisher from Fisher and Proven Technologies came into my life.  I think that's a really good quote. And so years ago, that was what we did. We started building those bridges, Um, not for people to abandon their paradigm. I'm gonna be a little bit controversial here, and you know, you have different people in the different camps that are saying the pyramids wrong. It's it's not right. I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong. That's not for me to say, but I know that if somebody sitting there and they believe in it and I want them to believe something different, I have to draw.  I have to draw that at for them and it has to make more sets. I can't just tell him you can't believe like you believe for 30 years. You need to get on board and believe this way. So our job azan individual in the beginning and now as a company has been to draw those bridges to change the paradigms and it can be done very, very quickly. Um, that's the other, I think, Miss, um, I think a lot of people miss how quickly that can happen. If you give people the science behind the bases of the new paradigm, you want thing.  So this one was a little bit more difficult to come about. This'll young lady who had been on another show. Actually, she was on the accidental safety, bro and I had heard her. And I was so interested on getting her onto the show here that I reached out to Jill James, who in return reached out to pod machine who in return reached out to Katie Room. Oh, toe, have her on the show. And, boy, was I intrigued with what she had to say, and I would love to share a little bit of the hard conversation with you right now.  I kind of felt this this way of operating where, you know, you lean on me and aldeen on you, it'll work out pretty well. And, um, a couple of years ago, I kind of got to this point where, you know, I think I told Jill this, you know, you can't play anybody as well as you can play yourself. And I found that, you know, being like everybody else just wasn't really working for me. And so I was like, You know what? I'm gonna do some things my way, and sometimes it's backfired a little bit, but, ah, a few years ago, I had to dio root cause training for incident investigations, and it really I just didn't feel like using the same incident that we talked about for years.  So I decided that I was going to dio, uh, root cause analysis of Jurassic Park. And at first everybody kind of looked at me like I was insane. They were like, Is this is this really happening and safety training? And I was like, Yeah, we're gonna go there. Let's talk about it. And some people were not really into it. But, you know, everybody kind of understands the just of Jurassic Park. I think you know, there's these dinosaurs and, you know, they all escaped and you know it.  We have to get through and survive. And it turned into, um, quite an adventure I shared. It was so my co workers and some of the other you trust professionals were like people in my class, like I had to call time because they just couldn't stop arguing about what the real root cause of this this incident wasn't, you know, it's something I never would have thought Teoh to create. But I'm really glad that you shared that. I'm like, OK, good. My weirdness is finally paying off a little bit.  So, you know, sometimes I just try and like, you know, what would I like to do? Not everybody likes to set your safety training for the 50th time, so I just like, you know, I'm kind of tired of talking about the same stuff. So let's do something different. And sometimes it goes really well. And other times it really backfires. But, you know, I like it. This'll interview ended up being one of those very strange opportunities that occurs in life. I remember this very vividly. Still, it was a weekend I was going around online, and I was taking a look to some different courses that were available online.  I like to do a lot of investigation when it comes to course, availability on different aspects. In all of a sudden, I found this course about safety consulting. I decided to reach out to the person that had created the course and have a conversation with them because they had also realized at the same time that this particular consultant was putting out a podcast. And this is how I discovered Sheldon Prime, Miss. And it has been a definitely interesting ride since I've met Sheldon a year or so ago.  Uh, well, I will tell you, when I started getting involved with safety, safety was not considered a glamorous job, and I mean that in the best of ways possible by that was a piece that you were interested. So when you started doing it, what do you fall in love with? Yeah, for me, it was 93. 94 was right around the time period there and what I actually got into it. And the reason I I started to think more about it was because people started asking me to give them.  They're my opinion on something safety and health. Or I had to go and direct something safety and health related, and I had no clue. So I had to begin to learn how to do that and how to understand. Hazard said what to look for and how toe give qualified opinions. And that's it kind of. Ah, woke in the inner person in me that loves technical things and detailed things. So this detail of safety was really what got me hooked. Why will tell you? Normally we try to do exactly what the safety FM listeners want or the safety of members.  However you want to call them. And there was a demand, a request, a conversation piece that kept on coming line. They kept on coming about. The name was referenced over and over again in that name. was eldeen pas niac. People kept on telling me that I needed to interview her, that I would enjoy it and that she had a point of view from psychological safety. So here's a portion of that interview when you have a presentation that's called 11. 5 points of Bs toe leadership. You're definitely not trying to be the typical the typical percenter there for sure, right, because you know that BS means being well depends on where you find it.  Depends where you find it online. Some some places Sebold Springs and some other places said, Well, you know what? That's A. That's a part of getting people's attention. And I've had some workplaces and I've had some conferences that, you know, they say, we like your concept. You got to change the title and I changed the title. Um, other conferences, they want that they want to be ableto grab people's attention and and and take it forward. Well, I think starting off with that, you'll definitely get people's attention.  So, as you know, as we go down the path of safety, there's always the question that comes up of what version of safety do you teach your do you believe in or however you want a word? It. So what side of the house do you see yourself in? D Cat? What? What you categorise is safety. I would like to ask the hard questions. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know it and it's a timely question. I'm going into a presentation next week, actually, where they're wanting me to talk a bit about traditional safety aspects and and how that matches or doesn't match with safety differently.  Safety 1. 2 point. Oh, and so forth. And, um and I think when you have, uh, so many turn safety professionals rating books and out on the on the stream that's there and is that you have to be able to look at everything from the good old bird, a traditional lost control approach which is still being fought out there. You know, up Teoh some of the newer concepts. Personally, I guess maybe because of my sex psychology background, when behavior based safety came into place, I went while you can tell the behaviors didn't say this is what we should title it because they would have known that that was a bad title to give it.  It's finished. You tell people you don't like their behavior or that we're gonna look at their behavior. They automatically shifted toe a negative connotation. At least a large percentage of the group will do that, especially based upon their own definitions. That usually as Children, we were told, you know, big, big good. Don't be bad. Your behavior isn't the best. And so, um, I think a lot of concepts that we we grew into with BBs, um I think, had some good components to it has some good philosophy with it, but maybe the title was bad.  It about taste in people's mouths before we even talked about the concepts that were there. And now is we're going to more the positive reinforcement and the engagement and, um, aspects of safety differently and safety one point over and two point. Oh, uh, I think that that's where we've matured and clarified that we need to talk about what motivates people, and we have to engage them appropriately and not only look at the negative aspects of health and safety, but focus on a more positive aspects that were there.  I think that it's it's sort of a maturity in our profession How we look at those kinds of aspects. So am I a true Hinrich girl with the pyramid and and philosophy? No, I think we vote grown. That is a safety profession. I think we need to look at it and see why we believed in that and why we thought that that was a good way of expressing health and safety at the time. There might be still some components that we can talk about. Um, but it's probably not where I where I, uh, hang my hat.  At the moment, I'm probably more into the positive safety culture engagements aspect. So this next one became pretty interesting in pretty quick. Ah, lot of people kept on reaching out to me and said, I would like to have a better understanding about human and organisational performance, so I would give some general directions on where you could find more information. But what this cause inside of me at the same time to was, I want to find out additional information and I wanted to really go to the people that had really established human and organisational performance back in the day from the Department of Energy.  So over the next few months we started taking some deep dives, human and organisational performance. We compiled a lot of interviews and it turned into this right here. How did it all start? Where did it come from? Now hear the story of human and organisational performance, how it happened from some of the people who were there. Todd Conklin on Chain Bush card. Listen to this multi part series on CBS. I have to tell you, there's so many interviews in between some of these that we're not discussing.  But at this point, over the next few, I was able to go to this thing called Sun Tracks, where they're actually testing autonomous vehicles out on some test tracks here in the state of Florida, which is really exciting. And then I was able to also go to a university, which is University of Central Florida, and do an interview there with David Metcalfe and Glen Cook and talk about some of the discoveries that they are doing inside of the lab there. And some of the things that they're testing with autonomous vehicles was able to tour the lab.  A lot of great information came out of there. Once we get into this next interview in there would let you know about it. This was one of the Founding Fathers is like I like to call them. And this was the interview that I had with Sheen Bush, and he talks about how it all started for him in this world of human performance in the early days, I honestly didn't even know what I was saying in explaining the performance votes. Because I've learned so much about performance moats, which is basically the mindset or the mental model.  People use cotton I put off and look at each other. Like what? Did we even say that Because we learned so much? So has it changed? No. Has it improved? Absolutely. Has it actually taken on a life of its own as far as taking it from reducing errors to actually increasing significant production by learning how to fail safely. And it's the new way of looking at human air because originally it was all about his eliminating human air eliminated or at least eliminate the consequences of it. Now what we're doing is we still don't We always got to stick to the fundamentals, and that's the thing I always judge people's presentations against.  Are you sticking to the fundamentals but telling us how we can improve that? And if if if they're sticking to the fundamentals, then I'm really interested. But if they've taken it in a whole new direction and got different terms and different, um, that I'm concerned because, as you know, with anything, once it starts morphing, then it just doesn't look the same. But the people that are doing the best with its the Conklin's of the world we share on all of them are the ones that are now taking human performance from not just reducing unwanted outcomes related to commune air.  But they're increasing human ingenuity. Now that is a really large leap. So now what we're seeing is companies not only eliminating, but they're actually providing safeguards. We call him Rumble Strips attorney Todd coined on the interstates. We give them rumble strips and then it's amazing that fixes the employees can come up with eso. We let him fell safely, and then those companies that actually look at it from that perspective rather than zero accidents zero incidents are actually having better success than those focusing just on the outcome.  This one was another popular request. Wine. As I kept on going around on social media, I kept on getting messages about interviewing this following young lady. She kept on putting out videos via Lillington. She kept on also putting out videos in Spanish via linked in. So people were intrigued that she was doing it in multiple languages. So they asked me to reach out to her and do an interview. And of course, that's what we do around here. We always want to be able to serve you the safety of em listeners.  So this was the interview that we had with Joe Pina. Well, the interesting part is that one of the first videos that I got to see was you actually reviewing a PP and you went into detail about it. And I believe if I remember correctly, the one that I was watching you were inside of your vehicle as you were doing the recording. If I remember correctly, if I don't please don't hold it against me. You were going over the information and then what you were You know what?  Your thought process about the whole thing was, and it was such a different concept is I'll tell you a lot of the people that I get to interact with. They don't go about it in regards of giving detailed information of what their thought processes. And keep in mind that a lot of the will say safety experts that are out there normally have a sponsor or someone behind them. So of course I might have the greatest product because, of course, they're also paying me. But that's not the approach that you're taking.  So as you're seeing people kinder interact with you as you're doing this, what's your guess? What? You're in goal. If you don't mind me asking, Are you trying just to kind of bring this to light? I know that you reference that some of the things on linked in our dry but what do you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to you? I guess accumulate all of this information and then really be able. Teoh kind of have, like, a one place or one stop shop where people can come to and go.  OK, well, this is a review of what what you've seen and this is probably what I should go with a question. I would say that it's evolving in a project that I'm picking on. I I don't recall on my nuts video, but it's been about two months, and I'm learning as I go. I'm looking to see what people get excited over. I don't necessarily have an end goal, because again, this is over the 15 I would consider it is more of a private, even work or not. But my ultimate purpose, I should say it's to provide information, information in a way that people can understand.  I hot people from all over the world in the messages asking, Hey, Joe, what do you think about this? Should I inform my upper management about this particular issue? Or Joe? How is it that you were able to become? Can you send me some length, uh, before resource is being available for with that network with a network? I think it's really satisfying to me, and I like the engagement and defend that I'm able to provide something of value in two minutes or less were three minutes when that is very satisfying to me.  So that's where I'm at right now. I'm enjoying being able to contribute to the face world in a way. So this interview right here was an interview that was presented to me by Todd Conklin. He had recommended reaching out to Regina McMichael, the safety training in India and to have her on the show. She has a very interesting story. So here's part of that interview. Yeah, I wasn't a secret, per se. It just didn't come up in conversation. It's not how I started conversations, because it it blows people away.  And it's not as shocking now because there's some preface before I go into a room or speak to, uh, speak to a group. But, you know, back then, particularly when I was still quite young, you know, if if he'd only been dead three years and I told someone that, you know, it's a big burden on them, you know, they're like, What do I do with her? And so I just, you know, kind of kept it to people close to me and then people in the profession who truly needed to know in order to understand Maybe, you know, some decision making that I have are some input that I have, but I don't think anybody on ocean new or if anybody did it was one or two people I don't really recall.  But it wasn't It wasn't a lot of the people that I worked with at the agency they didn't know the details on. But most people who work to this day, people have known for 25 30 years walk up in there like I didn't know that I'm like I didn't bring it up in conversation very much. It's like I'm saying it now to a national audience, and I have been saying this for national audience. You didn't tell me, G How do I feel? Sorry. Say that again. Say it again.  Sorry the whole portion on how they felt in regards if you're seeing it to a national audience and that's really how they ended up finding out. I mean, I would guess in many cases, and it was it was interesting because these these longtime colleagues suddenly saw a different level of of my commitment to the profession. But also, I think, a different level of empathy. They kind of understand a little bit differently, perhaps what some of my motivations are, but it's also very interesting because I think certain people might assume that I will take a position or a perspective on the safety profession because of my history.  And I've really kind of prided myself on trying to be the best of all the best safety people. Meaning, yes, you know, I was the wife left behind. But I also acknowledge that, you know, if the industry is behind on something one company, it's very hard for one company to be the 1st 1 to do the very best. So I have to tell you, with this particular interview, this interview took the longest amount of time to be able to occur. I had reached out to this young man in regards of being on the show.  I didn't hear back anything from him. Then I heard something back, and then we went back and forth, and then it went dormant. I don't think it was done intentionally. I look back at it now and we both chuckle about the whole thing occurring. But after almost a year of going back and forth at different periods of time, I finally got to have my interview with the safety pro himself, blamed J. Hoffman little did. I knew at the time that that was going to lead to him potentially joining the safety FM network.  A. So you get to see so many of these different concepts of safety and well, and I'm using now air quotes here of tough to follow you. But is you see the different concept that are out there based on the different organizations. And you kind of have to tailor what you do when you go out and you speak with people and how you actually take the approach to your podcast. What are your beliefs and concepts when it comes to safety? Oh, man. So it's pretty straightforward. Safety it Maybe I get this from the fire service.  I remember a captain telling me once he had a lot of little one liners. You talk about one liners. I should do a podcast. Just his one liners. But he had a few gems. One of them was, he told me, Safety doesn't or I'm sorry, not safety. An accident doesn't care how long you've been on the job. Doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care if you're a good person. Doesn't care if you're a man or a woman doesn't care if you're young or old. An accident does not care who you are.  All an accident needs to happen is on some level for it to be allowed to be permitted. And I said, Well, what do you mean by that? And he said, Well, let me break it down He goes into this long spiel is a very long conversation. We had about, you know, individual choices, individual experiences, background knowledge, education. How long, how long you have been doing this particular task. That accident doesn't care if it's your first day. If it's your 31st day or 30 year, 30th year, then he talks about Well, what about the organization?  You know, how prepared is the organization for the work that they're asking you to do? The industry that they're in, You know, he bring up rumors a lot and say, You know, you would think a roofing contractor who specializes in just roofs would know about fall protection. You know that you would be shocked to find this at the time. Mid nineties. You'd be shocked to find a lot of fruit. First. Roofing companies Don't you go. You look and they couldn't tell you The first thing about fall protection and their job every day is to get up in the air, you know?  And so you think they would know? So he kind of broke down this hole all the way from the individual to the organization and everything in between. That could go wrong. And he liked to couch it. In this phrase of, if it's permitted now, he doesn't mean willfully or willingly. But, you know, even, you know, unknowingly sometimes. So that kind of set my mind. That created a mindset for me early on. He influenced my approach to this. As you know, we've got to be a little more holistic about how we look at incidents, accidents.  When we look at mishaps, we look at, you know, root causes and then contributing factors to those root causes. And how deep can we get? You know, it's almost like a challenge. How deep can we really go toe find how far back we could have intervened to prevent this? Well, the next interview was quite fantastic, and I know that we're skipping around, so I want to make sure that I'm very clear Is I share this with you. But this interview that I got to do next was a deep dive with New Zealand twist.  Kiwi himself brightened suddenly. Take a listen Now, if it's 2000 and two and you're having this conversation with people that are leaders or oven organization, how are they actually responding to you by U too? Saying this information to them? I would imagine so it still it still a difficult conversation even today in 2019. Look, look at us and it sort of comes back to that. You know, risk management is the fundamental tenant for every business now, But I keep asking the question, What part of risk are you trying to manage?  That's the thing that causes the ham. A lot of people, they're exposed to it and organization still can't tell me that today just just use today. I was working with the group and it was around mental health. Or, as we like to say now, psychosocial risks. And what's been that they were talking about how we sort of manage risk, all Medicaid or control rest. They really thought that was all about trying to control a person, and we talked about, you know, doing things that have toe influence systems so that those systems have that capacity.  Is Todd would sigh to support people so we don't put them in most same types of conditions, and they really struggle to get us. And I think that struggled comes from the fact that they don't have the level of knowledge that's needed and also don't listen or on don't engage with people things. Conversation was pretty interesting. I was able to speak with Miguel Bowman, and he's so inspiring as a speaker in the detail, in the love and the passion that he has or what he's doing. It's one that I listened back to you pretty frequently.  Well, let me ask the question. Their BSO you also your hot let's say, quote unquote, a default safety guy by choice. This is because this is because of your Italian, because the ministry you decide that you know you want to be able to assist people. This is I mean, it's very interesting. How did you I won't say sell, but how did you influence the owner to think that this was the right case scenario? Well, for me, a quick study it. So once you start to learn to CFR for mining for Empta, you know their rules regulations.  You kind of get to know what needs to happen, what doesn't. And then I had the most fortunate, awesome opportunity to be somebody by the deep of Matt Butter. And at the time you work for a company called Moser's just got recently, the last couple of years out Old Castle that he, in my opinion, is probably one of the best safety guys in the Midwest, if not in the country. I love this program. I love his passion. I love what he does. And I just told him, Yeah, he and I kind of got a report.  And from that he's like, You know, I could coach you and help you through anything if it had nothing to gain from this either. You know, like we were paying him or anything like that. He spoke at one of our safety events and I could say we got a report, and from that and just having him in my hip pocket all the time, I just told my boss like there's nothing I can do. I absolutely 110% could do this and ah, jumped in there. It was very successful.  When I left toe, go to Turner. I was asked, not believe so. That's always good. You know, they're like way Don't want you to leave. I think what you have to have its safety. This is my biggest pet piece is safety cops. You know, you have to have a love for people. True love for people. I had someone one time tell be that it was looking for a new job and he was trying to get my advice, and I'd give free advice all the time. I talked to thousands of people throughout the month just on advice on safety advice on, you know, jobs and careers.  This kind of said, Hey, I want to be, you know, get another safety job. Well, what's your core beliefs? He said. I don't care if the guys hate me at the end of the day, he said, just as long as they go home safe and I said, You know what, But I understand that mentality with back. The matter is your people don't love you and they know that you don't love them. They're never gonna follow you there. Always gonna look for ways to get around the rules that you're trying to make make safe every day.  And I always say this all the time. There's two types of leaders, one that says Let's charge that Hill and everybody wants to shoot him in the back. When they go up that hill the other leader says, Let's start that hill and all their people charge past him so he doesn't get hurt or she doesn't get hurt. And it's that kind of leader that you have to be in a safety person. That's the kind of leader that I inspired. That's what made me successful. A general drilling it, uh, you know, I think that if you could take that mentality wherever you go, it's a game changer, especially when you've got people's lives in the quality of their lives at stake every day, especially in mining and heavy construction.  Those you know, you know as well as I do those industries to people up and way want to be there for you have to have a passion, don't have a passion, you're not gonna make it. I don't care what your accolades say. I've seen safety people that have every kind of certification after their name. I mean there day. But all those, all those beautiful letters and I think in education of safety is so important, so beautiful. But if you don't know what it's like to live the lives of the people that are working in the field, you're gonna be no good As a safety person, you're gonna fail every single time.  You gotta know. I know what it's like to come in there getting a piece of equipment, watch the sun rise set and then rise again on the same shift and never go home. I know what that's like, and I learned a lot of things. What not to do. Ah, that's a hard way to be a safety person. By the way. It's not one that I challenge anybody to do. Don't go the hard way, but I've seen a lot of things. So before we get to this episode, we decide to change the name of the show from Safety FM to the J. Allen show.  That's why we say we have two years. Of course, in the name change was really involved based around that we wouldn't want to cause market confusion with the name way were using the network name as safety FM, and then the show name was Safety FM. So we knew that was causing some confusion. So we built it up for a little bit and then decided that we were going to let everybody know what was exactly going on at the time. So that was about Episode 100. Then we're going to go a few episodes further up, and we get to have an interview.  Would Judy Agnew from Aubrey Daniels? So take a listen to this one. Let's talk about that for a moment because I think that that's kind of a focal point there. Because if you're saying that people are sharing toe, lose the way that they focus on things and then they're not getting correct data because, let's say, for instance, they're doing a root cause analysis if they're doing a job observation, if they're not doing it to the way that it should be laid out. Of course, the data that's going to come back is going to be in court exactly.  So when you start seeing a lot of this occur what can you do to help organizations to kit? I guess we'll say to get back on the correct path. Of course, I have some more questions, but I want to hear your concept on that burger. Yeah, well, and that's a That's a good question because there's a lot of the lot of really great processes that I think organisations put in place that if people use them properly the way they're intended, it really would make a difference. Um, what we do is we say okay, if you're not getting the l comes you want from whatever it ISS incident investigations near Miss reporting is another great example.  Ah, if you feel like people are just going through the motions, they're just pencil whipping. You know, the job safety analysis that they're doing, then you've got a look at Well, what happens to people? How are we setting them up to do it? Are we giving them the time to do it? Do they have the training? All those kinds of things within are what happens to them when they do it. If it's just a bunch of paperwork that they do and it goes into a black hole and they don't see any positive impact as a result of doing it.  Then you know they're likely to stop doing it. They're gonna just quickly pencil whip it so that they can get back to the real work. And so a big part of what we do is say, you know, we've got to make this stuff meaningful for people we have to have conversations with, um, about what they've done, You know, let's say someone does pre task risk assessment and they do a thorough job of it. If someone's there saying, Tell me about this, tell me what you did and then what adjustments are you making based on having taken time to do this?  So at this point, as I interview the following gentleman, he had already been on the station. He had already been on the podcast network, but I had found him a few months prior, and I was excited about having him come on to the network and having him come on to the station. So here's my interview with our own in house hop nerd Samuel Goodman. Why did you decide to do Ah, a safety podcast? What was what was that you saw that was missing at the time that you said this is something that you figured that she needed to do.  Well, I will. I'll tell you. Honestly, it was pretty selfish. I guess it just It seemed like a lot of fun. It seemed like something I wanted to do. Number one, um You know, I I had been a nerd in audio and playing with a V stuff for a while, and I kind of put that down for a while, as I kind of kind of got more focused in on my career over the past 10 years or so. Um, but then as I started to tune in and listen to other podcasts and really started to pay attention to stuff that was going on in the safety space outside of kind of my normal bubble, I was like, This is really cool.  This is something that I really enjoy doing. It scared the crap out of me, to be honest with you first. So I put it off and put it off and put it off, and then eventually I'm like, OK, if it scares me, I should probably do it. So I just jumped into an uncertain playing with it. So really, I guess the short answer that is, is that I would just really wanted to have a little bit of a hobby, I guess where it went through, the assumption was the ones who were listening to or so crappy that you said you just needed to create your own so that that's part two.  To that start to to the response, there's there's some great ones, obviously, right there. There's some awesome ones out there. Um, but what I found in the safety space in particular and it started, I started noticing it in an organization that I was associated with. First is that things were very, um oh, you are soon to be a political answer. Listen, Block, I guess. Is there a way? Here's here's the word that we coined. The word that we coined in my organization was we started calling it starchy.  Okay, so it's safety was very starchy. It was very like pressed slacks and polo shirts all day, right? It was very scenario they recorded their podcasts inside of the bathroom, and it sounded like there was echoing, and they want to give you all these stupid, um, references to these numbers and the system, and they sounded like crap. Let's be realistic. Is that resort yet? Yeah, it was. It was Rory. I have to tell you, I have enjoyed the last few. Well, for you, it's probably gonna be close to an hour.  To me. It's been several hours going through all these files taking a listen to these different interviews. I really wish we had the opportunity to go over every single wine, but I just know for the amount of time that the average podcast is, we're not gonna be able to do that. There are still several podcasts that we should cover, but we will do that at a later date. Thank you for allowing us the opportunity to come into your car, your home, your workplace. Wherever you listen to podcasts or the radio station.  It's been very exciting last two years. Being able to do this without you, the safety FM, er's. There's no way that this would be possible. I would like to thank the different shows that we have had on the network. Chose. It are no longer here, such as the Safety Justice League safety talks with Steve System, the X factor of safety with federal Maciel. I would also like to thank our current host that are still here on the station, the first person to ever take the risk in Jump across the board.  Tim Lodwick with his show Insights Into Your Safety Culture. I would like to thank Mike sudam with Crucial Talks, The Accidental Safety Pro with Jill James, the essential leadership cycle podcast with Rob Fisher. The hot nerd would see him. Goodman, the safety consultant podcast Children promise the safety of work podcast withdrew. Ray and David proven the safety pro podcast with blame J. Hoffman and pre accident investigation with Dr Todd Conklin. Also, I'd like to thank some of the people behind the scenes that you don't get to see.  You don't get to hear them on the airwaves, from our announcers to our producers, to our family members that are willing to sacrifice their time with us for us to be able to do what we do here. Ah, very appreciated off all of the support that my family has given me during this last two years of creating this thing and last but not least I want to thank the safety FM listeners over 24 million downloads, plays and listens in two years, a number that I could have never fathomed on the day that I started this thing.  Thank you for always being the best part of Safety FM, and that is the listener Over the last big. We have went in and out from different subject matters, different things, and we will continue to focus on riel safety talk. We're not gonna be kind of playing the games anymore that we might have done on the station. Now we're going to focus on riel safety matters. I appreciate you sticking through it during these times, and I appreciate everything that you do day in, day out to help promote our station.  I have been your safety manager and host Jalen, and we'll be back with another episode of the J. Allen show Before too long. Goodbye for now. Once more of the J. Allen show home the views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within with podcast are only example. It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited.  Undated Open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast, J. Allen.