brought to you by safety. Eyes streaming Now on Safety FM Dodd Life Hello and welcome to another glorious edition of the J. Allen. Show. I appreciate you actually tuning in week after week or day after day, depending on where you're listening to us. I appreciate you allowing me to share this time with you regards of having a conversation on what's going on in the world. From my point of view, I know as we started the J. Allen show, there's been some discussions about some different things that were been doing some different people coming on.  Today is no different. Today we're going to have a conversation with Michael Flagler. He is the founder in chief strategist of Caliber Safety. Caliber specializes in helping business leaders uncover and understand the systemic procedural and cultural drivers off operations and safety performance. So please join me in welcoming Michael to the show. Are you ready for the torture? I mean, I know that some people like this some people don't, so I'm wondering how you're looking at it that way, kind of nowhere to go. I'm just looking at it as an opportunity.  Toe shared dot experiences and, uh, views and looking forward to the healthy discussion. Man. Well, I have to tell you what before done. Well, what happened was that, of course, when I saw your stuff on Lincoln in the provocative questions that you've been asking the people to make them actually question things. I've kind of really enjoyed it. So I was like, I kind of kept looking and I was like, Well, your put your putting it out there for reason. So what is the driving force behind you asking these products?  These will These questions that are really driving people to give you a lot of answers and you're getting I'm gonna say you get a lot of debate on your threads, but you're not even necessarily actually addressing everybody, which I find even more interesting. So what got you kind of started with doing it of my whole career? I think I've always tried to, um, I think of myself as a life long learner, and I'm constantly trying to read and, uh, um, learn new new things in life. I don't have all the answers, You know, I think it's your your fool.  If you think you got it all figured out. So I like asking questions. I like I like the debate. And, um, I just think it's healthy sometimes to, um, kind of, like, poke and prod a little bit sometimes. Teoh get people toe, think more critically about about issues related, protected deal from getting hurt at work. So when you started doing this with regards of your questions and kind of asking what you've been asking to drive people forward and giving them method and then poke and prod is you're saying what were you What were your learning experience is what got you into the safety world.  Why did you decide to go down this path? Well, you know I remember, you know. Ah, I was in the A S P conference. See, that I believe was in Orlando, Florida, when I first heard Sidney Dekker talk. You gave a keynote address, and I think at the time there he was. He was promoting that that just culture book. They just come out. And what What do you are we're probably talking about? If you don't mind me asking. Ah, 45 years ago, Last SSC conference in the, uh uh, Orlando.  But you know what Sydney's ideas at the time. They really challenged me. And then So I bought the book about that day at the conference, and it almost ignited me as a health professional. Two. Okay, I had these views that held before. Now here's somebody else has come along. He's NEC's challenging people to be more than what they are, as far as uh, no said, he said he is so much more than just rules and compliance is about relationships. It's about uh huh care for people. And there's a lot of things.  So I read his book and then I reached out. I started just doing some more research. And looking online for Resource is our saw. I found Todd Conference book Traction Investigations. I bought that. Read that book and then I on just Allah Blue. I reached out to Todd on ah, found his email address somewhere. I know how founded about reshot doing Big Male and say God working that I learned from Or is there workshops there? Seminar. Where can I go to learn more about this? This new perspective?  Everybody's talking about it by to me to a, uh uh, a seminar that he was given a G facility in Lexington, Kentucky, and I was that I was his guest and I was able to spend three days because he took his team through this journey of, ah, professional human performance journey. So that's different. I mean, that has to be one of those things you're getting to see something from a different perspective that you probably did not expect to see. You know, exactly. It was very intimate. I mean, I think there was 15 people in the room, and so it was and a very, ah, very pivotal point in my career again to no seat.  I interact with people, you know, it was it was a seminal moment, my career. And so that's where I really tried to, you know, from that day on, it kind of learn as much as I could about you know, these things that before I was previously unaware of. And so, you know, started reading Eric Colin Angle books, reading books by David Woods. Gender ass percent, you know, But even stuff you know, Dan aerially we talked about, you know, his particularly irrational book was was a big influence on my thinking.  Eso you where I'm from as a health professional idea with people all know every day who have no clue. What is I'm talking about when you talk about safety differently? New view, human performance, you know? So it's kind of been my personal challenge to myself to help every professional that I meet try to think more correctly about what is that? There was just that they're doing also keeping a critical live towards Okay, No, is, you know, kind of, I guess you know, you're trying to keep yourself honest, I guess.  You know, wanting and and also not getting married to stop process. Especially as you as we learn more as we are, processes, attacks. And as we begin, our thought processes are more mature, complex. No new information is gonna going to challenge our thinking. And so with that post, it was just kind of like, uh hey, you'll is what it is. Is this a new perspective? Where is the where is the concrete evidence that it works? And even since that post, my thinking on that has changed. You know, if you think about the intersection between safety performance and operational performance, I think the two are intrinsically linked.  And when you think of some of the people who are some of the thought leaders in the business base, you know John Maxwell, for example, you know not everything John Maxwell espouses or talks about is it is scientifically proven building. But it works because he has, You know, he may have anecdotal evidence, so he got 40 years and no. So I guess my challenge was both to myself to think critically about what I'm doing, but also to people who believe, as I am inclined to believe, that this new approach words to a let's share stories.  Let's let's help bring trust and credibility to this, I guess. Movement. I know what you want to call it. Uh, let's let's help other people see how this can benefit. This is Jay Allen show. Have you learned about a human and organisational performance and you wanted more, or how is your chance? Fisher Improvement Technologies is conducting an advanced H. O. P. Practitioner workshop. Now is your opportunity to learn these advanced hop techniques in this two day workshop that is designed to give leaders the ability to understand and manage integrations of advanced air, a reduction in organizations.  Also, Nunes participants are provided with multiple experiential learning opportunities to ensure they could use the information in their day to day interactions. Firm or information, go to pharaoh hp dot com. That is e r o hp dot com, and click on the link that says Open enrollment and we're back with Michael Fackler from calibre safety. I mean, the interesting part you have to take a look at two is that a lot of people reference this as the new view of safety. This thing's been around for from everything that I can from that I can find is between 27 to about 30 years, depending on you know, where you want to start off.  So I don't know. I don't know. If I look at it is a new view. I think I might say that it's kind of one of those concepts that it's interesting, but I look for ah, holistic approach. I'll tell you, I've read some stuff out there where there isn't the science that's behind it, and I think that if you have to take some deeper dives that not might not be able to actually be able to answer it in a threat of a post where you might have to have the longer discussions.  But I'll tell you, since I'm with some of the threats that we're talking about, there's some people that like it, some people that disagree with it, Some people that seems like they have, like, total hatred towards it, you know? And everybody is entitled to their own opinion. But I want to jump back before we get into the thread too much. So when you start off looking at all the safety differently stuff you Okay, so you did the thing at the A S S E A s S p depending on you know, the tiling of the time.  You you do the research. All of a sudden, you get Thean fight from tied. You're doing this from this intimate setting. You leave the conference with workshop that they're having a g e. What's the culture shock for you then? How does that what occurs mentally for you? You leave there. Is there a switch that goes off or does this make you start hungering for more information? How to what happens next? Wait. Uh, definitely. It left me with hunger. to learn to learn some more, man. But I can remember as my time early on in my career is a city professional being one of these people that thought, Hey, you know, this largely make stand.  Uh, from a compliance standpoint, you have to do this. Why aren't these people doing where it is? I'm asking them to do now. And just remember early on being in challenge because, you know, I had I had come out of, I'd work for Kentucky OSHA for 2. 5 years. Yeah, I was very much one of those people who it was very, you know, who thought that. Hey, if it makes sense logically and that this will protect you and this is a rule, you should do this. And and perhaps early on in my career, discounted the importance of relationships.  And also, look at, you know, just didn't make sense to me basing your performance based on how safe a company is by how many people you injured in no other, No other area of business, you know, keep score that way. And so I just knew that there was there is a huge opportunity. Mm. For the profession, but also for me personally, to be able to make a larger contribution to the organization that a partner with to provide them new information to get them thinking about things in a new way that hopefully help them move the needle, you know, create higher levels of engagement.  Our levels of buy in at the end of the day, you know, better outcomes. So let's jump around a little bit if you don't mind. So you're working for OSHA, You decide to go into the private sector. How do you like the adjustment of leaving OSHA to go into the private sector? And what drove you to want to get into the private sector, especially being at OSHA? Well, you know, for me, it was largely a financial decision. You know, Kentucky, OSHA was a state plans state, so our salary scale wasn't wasn't comparable to that, the federal level.  So I mean, initially it was a It was a financial decisions to make the jump. But then once I got into, once I got into management, there was a lot of things that that I enjoyed about, you know, that was drawn me the safety and has allowed me to, you know, have some of the success that I have. And one of that was, you know, just being around people and being, you know, and I was start off in the construction. It was being outside and being able to talk with people.  And you build relationships across the organization, but also solve challenges. And, you know, I saw First Handheld Sometimes safety professionals limit their ability to influence people within the organization because their focus is so narrow in that, you know, again compliance. It's OSHA and not taking the time to invest in those relationships. And, you know, to help people understand the challenges that they're facing you and me and them is a professional. Understand the challenge that the worker faces and, uh, no, don't come. Don't come across with rules telling people what they can't do.  But I want to help people understand what they what they can do. You get work done, but also get work done safely. So how does it start for you? How did you all of a sudden get into Tosha? He is. I confined information about you, but I can't find what drove you to it. was there something in the personal life? I mean, not a lot of people start off there, so you know that I'm interested. Yeah. Yeah. I love sharing this story because hello, here in, uh, I love hearing how different people come to find themselves in safety, you know?  So I grew up in a small town right outside of Louisville, Kentucky is called Shepherdsville Kentucky, and I graduated high school in 1997. Now, neither one of my parents graduated. My dad never graduated high school, and neither one of my parents went to college, so they were We were working class folks from small town America. Uh, I was an average do in the house school. You didn't set the world on fire. And what side I want to go to college. Applied to one school, and I never visited that school before that.  So the first day I arrived on campus was the very first day I set foot on that campus. It was Eastern Kentucky University is where I went school at, Uh, I did the typical unusually want to be a police officer and UK. You have a big police administration program, so I took a couple police administration course of screamed out. That wasn't for me. I was drawn to politics, took starting up little science courses. But, you know, I was a young, impressionable 18 19 year old kid. And after two years, Okay, you said, uh, thanks, but no thanks.  You know, looking on academic probation, and I just I just never went back. And I, uh, I came home, talk to my parents and my father, and that's when I got a job in construction. Working construction as a career. Did that for a bear part of three years. And early on, when I was I remember I was at a bit of McAlpin lock and dam project in New Albany from the Ohio River. In little reaction is important. Louisville and ah, we were working like 15 16 hour days. Yeah, I remember telling myself this was not the plan I had for myself.  And I decided then to go back to school that was working full time and going to school full time. I went back to university. Little one got my bachelor's degree and the quickest route to graduation since I had a bunch of political science classes for me, K. You was just to go ahead and finish out that little science degree without knowing without knowing what I was gonna do. And ah, I graduated. And I just started applying for jobs. And one of the jobs outside for was Kentucky OSHA.  And they like the fact that I had a lot of construction experience. Well, I'm had three years, but they having by in her office with a structural focus or any kind of construction background so they like we can teach a safety of it, you know, construction. And that's what Can I kick it off? So my introduction to safety was my first job. Kentucky, OSHA. And the interesting part there is that they're teaching the safety. You have construction. And, of course, the political songs degree has to play a factor into the whole thing too, I would imagine.  Yeah, well, I mean, I think you know, I don't know how much the political science degree I think you know, you have to have Ah, I think if you had a political science degree, you know, you probably are maybe communicate better. Ah, with people are I don't know. Uh, you sold somebody, right? Yeah. I mean, it wasn't a technical degree. It was more a social science degree. But, uh, it was a great degree on the last day. I think that ability to communicate, you know, whether it's through email after a letter or even face to face those skills you develop in those little science classes and the debate classes help.  Uh, it was a work for three years in construction, and I had little to no clue what the ocean rules were made. Sure, I've been group withdrew orientations when you go on his big job sites, but nothing really stuck. Yeah, I didn't know what any of the rules were. So there was a steep learning curve. But I've always been a quick learner and work to the Cabinet for better part of three years and turn at three years time. I went back to school, t lucky and got my master's degree in a security and emergency management.  And then once I left the Labour Cabinet and guys proud industry was the things. Just take it out from there. Jay Island Show High loot Way are fighters. When we first got married, we dreamed of owning land and building self sufficient lifestyle. But we seen saw that buying land was almost out of beach land was expensive and hard to finance, but we couldn't just give up on our dream of being land owners. To be honest, it was a pretty discouraging problem, but we were determined to find a solution.  So we started a company called the Farm Finders to find properties that anyone could afford. That was a few years back, and today we're proud to say he helped hundreds of people make their landowning dreams a reality. There's something inside each of us that once piece of land collar and here at the farm finders we can make that happen. If you're not guts, dream of owning land and check out our website at the farm finders dot com declined that perfect property. Take advantage of our no credit check.  Zero interest under financing with payments is lost $50 a month. With their secure online check out, it's easy to make any property yours with just a few players who don't just dream. Do something. Visit the farm finders dot com Today more. We get into your head safety FM and We're back with Michael Flagler from Calibre Safety. So let me ask the question as you go back to you, Eastern Kentucky University and you had been on academic probation previously. How did that interaction go when you get back? You know, I mean, e mean personally is rewarded.  I mean, because that was, you know, looking out school for, you know, for lack of a better term. Hey, I wasn't I wasn't gonna work like that. I wasn't an order like that. You did? No, it wasn't a plan, so I mean, to me, it was personally rewarding. You know, that was a much better student. You know, I think I graduated high school with a 2. 2 g p. A. And then when it was finished, my master's degree, I got, like, a 38 Yeah, I finished. My bachelor's was with a 35 you know?  So I was I had my head on straight. Guys, I've been kicked around a little bit my life, but I knew that no education educating myself, you know, was a key opportunity. And I think I've carried it onto my whole life. I never stopped learning. I never stopped trying to to find new perspective the new ways that I can help companies help people better understand how to protect people. Well, I mean, and then it looks like you continued your education because you then decide to get a second masters degree. Correct?  Yeah, it was You know, that came from the frustration that I had working frustration. But, I mean, I think in my mind, I'm independent by nature, and I've always wanted to kind of, uh, start my own business are being the captain of my ownership is what I tell people. And so when the opportunity arose for me when I wasn't traveling as much started working at Eastern Alliance. Ah, I was home every night. I could commit to an MBA. I've done to the chance to get an MBA knowing that, you know, I wanted to, you know, kind of both from a business 0.  3 days, You know, I want Teoh have a better understanding of how organizations work on the operational side on the business. You know, one for my own benefit When I start my own business of also, when you're sitting across the table from a CEO or from a CFO or division president, you can begin to talk about themes that you didn't talk about. Issues related to the business that are maybe outside of the traditional safety scope. Because again, I'm a firm believer that if you you know, if you improve safety that you will know you achieve ancillary benefits outside of safety for a small productivity employee engagement, efficiency, you name it.  Well, let's talk about that for a moment because you go out there and you get your MBA. So now you're able to will say quote unquote speak. The lingo with CFO is the CEO is now that you couldn't do it before, But you can do it a little bit better, Let's say quote unquote. But then, all of sudden, about a year later, you decide to take the leap of faith, and I'm gonna say the leap of faith here and you decide to do you decided to found a company called Caliber Safety.  So what was the inspiration? How long? How long were you planning that in the background before you decide to do it? Uh, you know, I mean, I think it's probably for a better part of a couple years, I guess about halfway through my MBA, and looking at you are Capstone Project was to develop a business case or develop a business plan. So I was like, Whoa, you know, this has always been a dream of mine. I'm gonna go ahead and do it. Uh, you know, in my mind, you know, in my experience, you know, I have I have seen companies who have been underserved by consultants who have a narrow focus on compliance mean again.  Sure compliance is important, you know, but, you know, walking job site, uh, doing OSHA training and, ah, rewriting programs and my my amounts to tell companies how they're screwing up and what they can't do versus really trying to understand what is going on in that business and helping that person see what they can do to improve safety and operations. If, you know, caliber safety is founded on this in my mind, it's nothing. I'm This is a groundbreaking. I'm not reinventing the wheel here, but, you know, on our website no, we believe that if you look at the safety outcomes are determined by a new organizations, structure, processes and their inter culture.  What people see saying experience in the workplace and you have to take and yet to consider all three of those if you ever want to have a shot at achieving sustainable performance improvement. And you know if I can help a company identify risk better if I can help them set goals and objectives if I can help them plan execute. On the safety side, no skills that they develop have broad utility across the organization. And so, uh, you know, that's why we're founded. That's why we were found.  And that's what we believe. And that's that's the message that we're trying to take. You know, whenever we meet, new clients are never we meet people in, you know, only Janet, former lead. When that's what we believe in, we think that message resonates more than you just know. So we focused on OSHA compliant. Now do you see a particular industry where a lot of your clients are coming from or it's a kind of ah, a wide scope, you know it's all over, you know? So we've I have worked.  Historically, I've worked no, a personal experience in construction of work in a managed construction way. We also work with general industry clients. Transportation client. Well, client in the non profit in the healthcare space. Uh, but you know what we have? It's funny, because a couple years ago, I went to a shaky too. And I think it was called safety to practice conference. It was put on by the name escapes me, Tom. Uh, I think of it in a minute, but David program was there. Ron Gant was there, Jeff left, And those those four guys I'm on a kind of a working group with now.  But it was a conference in a Fort Lauderdale Petersburg. Sorry. You love you love Florida. You're constantly here. It sounds like Yeah, and but, you know, I was the only insurance guy in that room, and I was the only person there with a specific focus on bringing these. Ah, you know, new view idea that I hate the term new view, but bring these new ideas. Two companies that no, they're not oil and gas or no hospitals or not nuclear power generation facilities. These are, you know, manufacturing facility with 400 employees in the middle of nowhere.  Now, these air construction companies with 200 employees who sell perform no concrete, you know, And that's been the best. Been my kind of my challenge and my focus. How can I bring some of these, you know, ideas that are No. Two companies that are struggling with resource is are struggling with no, you know, their business grows with time, money and resources, especially those for small to medium sized businesses. How can we bring that message to them? Because that's what it promotes. If you look at no fatalities, fatalities occur on the higher rate with those small Indian style employees and, you know, trying to focus our efforts toward that market.  So currently, are you doing work outside of Kentucky as well? Are your distance right now just in Kentucky? Well, right now you were still very young, so we're No. Most of our stuff is centered here in, but I had a meeting with a customer there days, You know, we can go anywhere you know of work to catch up programmes. And, uh uh, on large accounts were no filed on Monday, back in on Friday. Phoenix, Florida, California, You name it, but, you know Hey, we're start up and we're uh, we're trying to shake the shake the trees around their own backyard right now.  So rain male. Let's say, for instance, we have some potential customers that might be interested in getting some more information working the goto no caliber safety dot com. Um, we got a website they can reach out to me on a link in. Um, that's probably the best way now, Michael, I have a question for you real quick. Are you doing? Are you planning on doing anything in the Canadian space or maybe Mexico? Because I see a lot of things come out of there out of those two areas or are you in those Those owns right now as we speak are now?  Yeah. No, I don't think so. I mean, uh, they got a different set of rules. And even though you know, when that would have feel a client, you know, I was, like, operate like, oh, sh doesn't exist, you know, But, uh, we have a passport, but just not our focus right now. Michael, I really do appreciate your taking the time on being here. Thank you for allowing this platform to enter into your life on a daily basis or on a weekly basis, depending on where you're listening to us course, like always were available on safety FM dot com and on safety of him dot live were also available on your free word pod catcher.  Remember, The J. Allen Show is not the Onley show on the network. We have so many different hosts that are available to you that we would love for you to take a listen. Come to safety FM dot com for further information. This brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. We'll be back before you know it. Goodbye for now, once more, the J Island. Wondering how you can show your love head of announcing Facebook on Trump like the views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company.  Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only example. It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast. Wow, how things can change from one week to the next.  Hey, hope everybody out there is staying healthy. I know everything is super crazy. We feel disoriented by the cove in 19 virus. It's more important than ever to stay connected and check in with your loved ones. That's why I'm so happy I got T mobile. Listen, T Mobile isn't just talking the talk there taking measures right now to make life easier for everyone by doing the right thing for their customers during this really critical time, for example, T Mobile has ensured all current customers with data plans have access to unlimited smartphone data on their network for two months.  We're all in this together. T Mobile truly believes that. And while many T mobile stores air temporarily closed to help keep customers and employees healthy, they've still got you covered with any help you need. Just check out t mobile dot com. You can see what stores are still open and how you can manage your account online. Stay safe out there During congestion. Customers using more than 50 gigs a month may notice reduced speeds. Prioritization video, typically at 4 80 p capable device required. Wow, how things can change from one week to the next.  Hey, hope everybody out there is staying healthy. I know everything is super crazy. We feel disoriented by the cove in 19 virus. It's more important than ever to stay connected and check in with your loved ones. That's why I'm so happy I got T mobile. Listen, T Mobile isn't just talking the talk. They're taking measures right now to make life easier for everyone by doing the right thing for their customers during this really critical time, for example, T Mobile has ensured all current customers with data plans have access to unlimited smartphone data on their network for two months.  We're all in this together. T Mobile truly believes that. And while many T mobile stores air temporarily closed to help keep customers and employees healthy, they've still got you covered with any help you need. Just check out t mobile dot com. You can see what stores are still open and how you can manage your account online. Stay safe out there during congestion. Customers using more than 50 gigs a month may notice reduced speeds. Prioritization video, typically at 4 80 p capable device required.