Today on The Jay Allen Show
speaks with Patrick Karol
. During the conversation, Patrick discusses the one event that got him involved in safety and how it changed his life forever.
Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is visited. This show is brought to you by safety FM eyes streaming now
[00:00:11] spk_1: on safety FM dot life Well, hello and welcome to this edition of the J. Allen Show. Hopefully, everything is good in grand inside of your neck of the woods. Lovely to see you back on the show today as we go down the past and having conversation of what is going on inside of this lovely industry of ours as we take a look around and about and we highlight some different people going out and about. Anyways, it seems like a lot of people like to Friday's episode with Tricia talking about the B words. E wasn't fun conversation as we went down Memory Lane is exactly seeing what was going on in the industry when she started toe where the industry is at now. You haven't taken a listen to the episode. Please go back and take a listen. A lot of people seem have already been listening to it. A lot of people seem to be really liking it anyway. So let's talk about today's conversation because today is going to be a different perspective. Well, a different perspective compared to most. Let's put it to you that way as we go down this conversation today with Patrick J. Carroll. If you're familiar with Patrick, there's a reason behind it. He is the president of Carol Safety Consulting. We're gonna go down the path of the things that he has learned throughout his career and the things that he's seen, how he got involved into safety and where this lovely career of his had led him throughout the years as he worked for a very large airline toe where he's at currently today. So I'm not going to take up too much of your time here at the beginning of the show. Now let's get you started with this conversation with Patrick J. Carroll right here on the J. Allen joke. Got it. So I have to tell you, Thank you. Number one for doing this. And I apologize that it took so long to get it all kind of, you know, the sequence. But with everything going on, I'm sure you could understand what was going on at the same time. So I have to ask the question because this is where I start off almost with everybody. Why did you decide to get into safety. What drove you to that path of saying Okay, this is what I want to get into. Well,
[00:02:21] spk_0: you know, I like to think. Didn't shoot saying, Steve, this much is That tells me I never had any career intentions of getting into safety. Um, I graduated high school. I was a strong C student. Um, college. Uh, my dad was had been in the army. Uh, he says no, I don't go in the army. He says you're going to come to work with. That's why I work in a glass factory for a while. Uh, this was, you know, when
[00:02:54] spk_1: when
[00:02:55] spk_0: everything was in glass, right? So Gatorade bottles was glass. And believe it or not, there was a time when all gatorade bottles were glass. Milk jugs were made out of glass, prescription bottles. Glass was factory, made those bottles, and that's what I did. I worked era, and it was really tough work. I worked there long enough to figure out how to go to college. So I did that. I went to college and I worked in the airline industry while I was in college, and I thought man I'm set for life and worked a number of different jobs in the airline. A forklift that cleaned airplanes. Andi, I made my way up to supervisor and I thought, Man, I'm This is it. This is it. I'm set for life. Um, and I was working out on the tarmac at the airport. Karmic were the largest airport operations in the world. Atlanta, Georgia. And that was about does going cool. Fall evening. Now the supervisor. So we carried radios so we could stay in touch with other supervisors and different departments and so forth a call come over my radio for go on to get a 17. I detected no sense of urgency in his voice. And it was right away. That was weighing was another supervisor right across the tarmac and get a 19. I could look over and see it, and I knew that Echo one waas the ambulance service on the field. I thought, Well, I could see a plane and started the back out the gate, and I thought, Well, I know what's happened. I'm playing center has gotten sick. They gotta take them off. Don't be the bag. Then they gotta take that bag off to you can look over in lanes area. I could see what he was slammed. He was busy. I wasn't doing a lot. I thought you know what? Well, hopefully hugging right over to see if I can help him. So again, I was over there in lesson. Somebody less than a minute. So I was pulling up to the rear of the aircraft. Um,
[00:04:58] spk_1: I
[00:04:58] spk_0: thought some guy stayed around the main gear. This aircraft was a Boeing 7 57 aircraft. This is the main year. The big, quiet tires underneath the wings. What kind of? I don't know. Why would they be standing there? I got a little bit closer. They realized what had happened. Way had run over dance with the Boeing 7 57 aircraft way. The supervisor was taking his coat off, putting it on fueler. There was another buddy of mine Shadow. It was taking his belt off and turn it around his legs. I didn't know what todo froze. My hands literally froze on the steering wheel. I didn't know what to dio. Um I happened to glance off and you see the jet tub driver that was moving the aircraft everything his face down in his hands, He knew what had happened. Unfortunately, the ambulance got there then and I never even got off my tug. I turned around, went back to my area, and the whole night, I kept thinking two things. How did that happen? Number two, I hope I hope in private event is okay. And it was It was at that moment that safety for May went from something that I tolerated. Something that I had to do once a year because I had to make sure all my my team got trained and has come and like, taking all that stuff, something that was personal to me. Now, you know, now I looked at my team of about 40 workers. Uh, I'm responsible for their safety. Long story short, I didn't know what to do about it, but I just knew that I was responsible for their safety school year. The airline was Delta Airlines. They took a hard look at themselves and said, you know what? And they did a lot of benchmarking
[00:06:57] spk_1: and
[00:06:57] spk_0: to say You know what? Maybe we need a ground safety department. Until that point, it kind of been farmed out to different divisions, different departments. But he did. They formed one. And, uh, I raised my hand and I joined their department. And that was in 1994 not knowing anything about safety. And so that's why I say it kind of tells May. I didn't choose safety. I never had any career intentions of in this thing. And that's how it happened. I worked there for the next 13 years, and I was incredibly fortunate to be able to work with some phenomenal people. Phenomenal leaders. I learned a lot from
[00:07:40] spk_1: the
[00:07:40] spk_0: flak safety department there. They had very well established, as you could imagine and connects. So that Z we'll
[00:07:55] spk_1: get into that portion, we'll get into that. But so it was an accident. Essentially then that actually got you involved. Now the gentleman come out on the other end. Okay, in the long run, I mean, after everything took place, of course, he
[00:08:08] spk_0: launched his leg up to his hip and came back to work for a while. And ironically, you know, that was the person who was obviously injured. But oftentimes we don't think about the secondary victims individual driving that jet tub that ran over him also missed ah, lot of time simply over his anguish of of what had happened in the rubble he's playing. Yeah, he did live.
[00:08:38] spk_1: Well, that's the great part about it that he did live. And that's a good point that you do bring up. Because here's the thing that takes place, as you fully are aware, is that people don't put into consideration of what might have caused potential portions of the accident on how it actually has in effect on the person that will say, quote unquote was the cause. So as you look so as you look at this now and of course you're doing the retrospective because we're talking all the way back in 1994 when this occurred and how you say that safety chose you. Do you look at the whole thing and look at how where your career is now. And of course, we're gonna get a little bit mawr into it. But as you look at your whole career now, do you look at it and go? The trajectory that you're on currently would have never occurred. If that accident would have happened, absolutely.
[00:09:27] spk_0: Would have never I would have. I moved. My hope was that, you know, if I did well enough as a supervisor, I move up the management, right? I love managing it. Well, supervising and I just saw myself moving. Kind of moving up those ranks.
[00:09:42] spk_1: Eso here. So here's the thing then. So this changes your career. This changes everything for you. So you say you raise your hand, you're gonna go down this particular path and you know absolutely nothing about it. So at that moment, and of course, I know I'm asking for some time ago to kind of go back to your what you were thinking at the time, But why all of a sudden, do you say it's a risk to change everything that you wanted to go into a field that you even mentioned that you're not familiar with at the time to move forward in?
[00:10:13] spk_0: Well, you know, to me, I looked at as an opportunity to thio have a bigger impact on the safety of hundreds of Vince's out of the operation. And that's what I saw. I saw it. Is that that kind of opportunity And I thought I can't Yeah, Destiny. I don't know. I don't know if that was it, but when I saw that opportunity come up, I thought, you know what? It never once occurred to me that I couldn't do that job and I couldn't bring enough passion and interest and desire toe learn what I needed to learn. Have a veteran.
[00:10:57] spk_1: So as you go into the safety department for Delta Airlines and all of a sudden you're going through everything, you're starting to learn everything about the industry. You're starting to learn about Delta safety. Are they tying into you at the time? Any kind of f A A regulations, or is this not something that's spoken about? At the time,
[00:11:16] spk_0: there was a little bit of overlap. FAA, generally covers of the flight and the aircraft, the flight crew. My responsibility was in the ground operations, but it was a little bit of over higher. I was fortunate we were part of the flight safety department. So a lot of I learned a lot about what? About their processes and their procedures and their regulations. But there wasn't a whole lot of overland.
[00:11:47] spk_1: Yeah, but then you you stay there. I mean, you're there for a long period of time. From what I could find, I have it roughly about 13 years, give or take of you actually being there. So as you start off from day one inside of there, not knowing much about the industry besides possibly the naming when you leave there, how far ahead are you in your career? I mean, and I'm talking about what have you learned over these years? Are you going to different places and learning Maura about safety? Or how does the knowledge base come about? I mean, because I'm looking at this from how? How does day one ish look like Thio when you leave, give or take 13 years later?
[00:12:28] spk_0: Yeah, that's a huge E.
[00:12:31] spk_1: No, I like to put the pressure on people. If I can't.
[00:12:33] spk_0: E learned a lot about the importance of fact management gathering the fax. I learned a lot about regulations. I learned a lot about developing training programs, but I guess when I, when I left, felt I think three most important things about safe where number one was selling, Number two was selling. Number three was selling
[00:13:00] spk_1: hold on safety. People don't want to know that their that their sales people. I think you just let the secret
[00:13:06] spk_0: out, you know, and that selling cells has a negative connotation similar to the word safety. Right? Selling a Carnegie said it best. Selling is simply about influencing somebody to do something you wanted to do. Eso if you, you know, we could have the technical knowledge and that's that's important. And I worked hard and gathering. Being in that technical knowledge, take a lot of knowledge is opens doors, open, stores the conversations,
[00:13:39] spk_1: but
[00:13:40] spk_0: it doesn't necessarily influence people. You have to go a little bit about selling about influencing people, what you want him to do. If you want to really have an impact and safety and health, that's it. So So when I left belt, I think that might have been biggest lesson I learned was that selling, selling, selling you had to be able to sell safety because safety, you know, somewhere along the way of it, uh, developed a negative connotation from in the safety cop to enforcing regulations to investigations to mandatory training. 20 things have negative connotations investigations on its violations. So So that was a battle he had to find. Yeah, an uphill battle. So he didn't know something about influencing something about selling. You're only gonna be so successful. Eso
[00:14:38] spk_1: you mentioned that you mentioned the term their safety cop. Do you believe looking back now at this particular portion of your career that you went through that sequence I mean and I'm talking about because you're talking about day one until you're learning to influence and so on. Or do you look at this now. Going I was were a period of time a safety cop When I was learning how to do this,
[00:14:59] spk_0: we owe I didn't know how to manage safety. I didn't know how to even talk about safety s. So the only thing I knew was disciplinary action and that and that been enforcing regulations. And that's what I did. And I thought, you know what? I'm not That's not gonna happen on my shift on my watch. And so yeah, so I was I was a safety cop. I am forced. What? My virtual, at least in my head. What I thought they needed to dio and even And that carried over into my my professional career for a while until I figured out that way like something I learned over the weekend.
[00:15:44] spk_1: Hold on. It wasn't a certificate program that you only took for two days, and now you're a pro. Oh, come on
[00:15:50] spk_0: s, oddly enough, you know eso You know you can You can in your hands say, Yeah, I don't wanna be a safety cop. Okay? So what does that mean? How do you How do you What's the next step? What's the progression from there and how you get there? It took a while. I mean, that took a while, so and I'm still learning. I'm still learning. If you look at my bookshelf right now, I've got books on. I got some safety books, but I got a lot of books on selling a leadership, and that's the kind of the soft component that is often lacking. And I know I hear people complain about you know, all these, uh uh, graduates coming out with safety degrees. That and they handle its technical knowledge. You don't have a soft skills. And I don't know how you could expect him have some of those soft skills when they come right out of college. But soft skills are really important. This
[00:16:47] spk_1: is the J. Allen show. Are you tired of being part of these zoom calls where everything sounds like it's bouncing off the wall? Are you tired of buying subpar, non artistic soundproofing? Well, let me tell you about my friends at. They are high quality, high color, high graphic high panels. They have anything that you could imagine on their website. Take a look at Adi Mute calm. If you have the idea, they can create it. They have everything from panels that look like wood to custom panels. Thio Even what we use here at the safety FM's studios City Scrape. If you wanted to Nome or information, go to audie mute dot com. That's audie mute dot com and make sure to tell them the J. Allen sent you on. We are back on the J. Allen show on safety F M E. I agree with, and I agree with what you're saying right there, and I think that that's still kind of ah, lost art for some. For some where they don't understand about being able to build relationships and actually have those conversations where it's not, this needs to be done now, but really understanding the need of an organization and then referencing what this might work as a culture overall opposed to it just being well, this is the culture of the operation, and this is the safety culture that we're trying to put in, opposed to it being a combination of both. Now, of course, that's going to date a little bit of some of the conversations that I have from time to time. But as I look at it, I see a lot of degrees, just as you said that air coming out. But people that are unable to speak to people at management levels or board levels because it's great if you could also, if you could speak all the nuances inside of the safety world. But if you go into a C suite using that as an example and have the same conversation that you might have in the field, choose someone who is inside of the C suite and I'm talking about the nuances of safety, you're gonna lose your audience so quick there it's not even gonna. It's not even gonna be funny.
[00:19:02] spk_0: Exactly, so you have exactly so I e. You have tow have the technical knowledge right, That that's a baseline. They expect you to have that that opens doors, those conversations. But you also have to define safety in your terms. I was taught early on about the safety drivers. Uh, so you know who your audience is? You define safety,
[00:19:24] spk_1: The
[00:19:24] spk_0: next storm, what they do. So if you're talking to HR, you talk about the people component. If you're talking to a lawyer, you're talking about the regulatory component. Eso If you're talking to the director of Finance, you're talking about the financial impact of safe. So you use these drivers. Thio define safety in their terms and knowing what it is they want most is a key component of what you wanted to do. Yeah, I
[00:19:57] spk_1: think I think you're spot. I think you're spot on with what you're saying. So as we look
[00:20:01] spk_0: a little
[00:20:01] spk_1: bit more into your career for a moment, so you do some other things you go through some different from from different positions and you get to a point where you turn around and you say, Okay, I wanna be a speaker. I wanna be an author and I'm gonna start my own consultancy. Please tell me that this is when you decided to retire. Because this is where I got here. Most people say this
[00:20:24] spk_0: E I'm not I'm not a very good planner.
[00:20:33] spk_1: As
[00:20:33] spk_0: much as I am a reactor, I react to my my situation. So I started speaking several years ago. I thanks jobs a couple of times I, my, my CS Speaker into was coming. Do I had to re certify and I was behind on points. And I thought, You know what? I need a bunch of point toward fast. So I started applying to speak in that way. I thought, like a good point for speaking. I think it was for taking conferences.
[00:21:04] spk_1: I
[00:21:04] spk_0: enjoyed it. I enjoyed sharing what I've learned in my career. So that's kind of what I mean started down that path. Well, I lost the job five years ago, and I'm unemployed for the first time in my whole life, and I thought What I like this is my reaction part right? I don't really plan as much as I do react. And I'm thinking, What do I enjoy doing the most? I really enjoy the group's actually sharing what I've learned. Let me see if I can make some money doing that. And so I've been able to somewhat successful so far at doing that. I enjoy doing that from that I've built a safety leadership workshop and written a book. So So all these were kind of reactions to being unemployed and having to do something. No. And recognizing what I enjoy doing and recognizing where my passion is recognizing why I do what I do. S
[00:22:05] spk_1: O r. Do you? Do you enjoy this more than having to, let's say, quote unquote work for someone else? Are you enjoying it that much? I mean, you've been doing this now for a little over four years or close their of
[00:22:17] spk_0: E s. I like Thio run obstacle course races, and I always say, Hey, Jeff, fun. It wasn't fun. Uh, there's a tremendous sense of satisfaction when I can go out and find a company, a situation where I could provide value toe, help them address the problem that they have. And so I've I've done that on a number of occasions that over the past few years, and then it on my own and and I'm telling you, feels really good it is said years ago, Pat. What do you know? What? Your plan next year. I don't I don't know. I do know that I have a passion for being in the safety industry. And so that was a much as I knew. And a speaker? Mm hmm. That was a reaction to being unemployed and not being able to find a full time job. So with
[00:23:25] spk_1: the way that things have changed over the last, we'll say the last 10 months at this particular point and, of course, locked down and changes into how we were doing stuff inside of the industry, because I would imagine it. At some point, it was relatively easy to jump on a plane and go to x area. And do, ah, do a do A actually a conference and then come about and then move on. So how are you adapting to this digital world of ours where everything has to be done virtually
[00:23:50] spk_0: well? You're right. A lot of the impersonal on what I do with you first. A lot of that dropped off the table last year. So some of that I've been able to convert virtually I'm fact, I've got a one day workshop that I want to start doing here in the next. Within the next 12, 6 weeks or so, it's gonna be a virtual virtual live workshop. So So I'm I'm learning to adjust. And I've been doing dio some exam credit workshops. So that's three day online course. A virtual course alive. Virtue, of course. So some things I've I've converted, uh, I'm going on ongoing battle. I'm learning, learning all the technology and learning it. You know, if you could if you're really good presenting in person, not necessarily the same if your virtual
[00:24:47] spk_1: well, it's always interesting on how how willing people are to adapt to tech now, especially with everything changing so much because I was having a conversation earlier today with someone how we were talking about how, probably about a year ago at this point. Ah, lot of companies, if you said, What is your idea about working from home? They would have looked at you and said, working from home What? Why would you want to do that? And look at the space that we're on now on How so? How many things have actually changed? So what has been your biggest learning and this new virtual world from going from in person events to doing it to some of the virtual speeches that you get to dio.
[00:25:28] spk_0: I'm learning that it's a real challenge.
[00:25:30] spk_1: I agree with you. I agree.
[00:25:32] spk_0: And you know, I've learned that there's no substitute or in person in person presentations in person meetings. There's really just no substitution for it. Um, that doesn't mean you can is simply, you know, go about your business on the virtual platform, the things that you have to do different to engage a virtual audience. And I'm learning some of those things. And I think you really, really, really, uh, have to go that extra mile to make a connection virtually whereas in person just so much easier. But I don't really think that there's really a substitute, uh, for in person e think there's a lot of people. I think I've had a come full circle early on. Last year, I was thinking, everybody's gonna get used to the Virtual world zoom meetings, and they've got a life being able to get up and just, uh, in the morning and there pajama and go to that virtual meeting. Now I'm thinking, What? There's a way. We're We like to interact. We like to interact. We like to be around people. I think a lot of that is going to come back, and I'm hoping it does. I like being around other people. I miss pressing the flesh and shaking hands. And, uh,
[00:26:51] spk_1: well, it makes it much different, of course, on the virtual events compared to the in person. Because, let's say, for instance, you're doing an in person event and people moan or groan or chat or clap and cheer or so on during the event. You know exactly where to continue on during the path where it becomes extremely more difficult during a virtual event. Because unless somebody is actually typing away inside of whatever form of chat box you have, it becomes very difficult to be able to follow along.
[00:27:19] spk_0: Yeah, and you know what? Some people are just not going game. Some people just want to kind of he'd be at arm's length and it Z it's just not gonna happen. And some people are fourth little effort. Some people understand that the you know what, but if on and they're gonna be involved in those of the people. I kind of focused on what I'm doing. A virtual workshop is the people who do that.
[00:27:45] spk_1: So let's talk about some other things going on. So you have the virtual workshop. So let's use this as a perfect example. Then you tell me on what you think about this. So let's say, for instance, there's somebody who is actually on the verge of starting their career and they're asking for mentorship from you, and they say, I'm going to go down my path of starting my safety path. I am about to get into college. Would you recommend college and learning about safety? Or would you would you say I think you should go out and get some of these certifications that are available through these different organizations. What path do you set them
[00:28:23] spk_0: on? A. Okay, Uh, okay. A warehouse. Get to know what it's like to be a frontline employees because so much of what we do is for that guy and that gal working out on the floor. We're now on the front line, so we're not in connect with them. Um, if you want to go to college, you get your service parities. ITT's my recommendation. So if you come right out of high school, go right into college and, uh, somebody safety careers for you. Go down that path and you get Now you've got this technical modeling. You don't know how to connect with the frontline employees. That could be a little bit of a problem that could that could that could present some real uphill battles. That would be my suggestion. You gotta get your hands dirty, compare workmen's total of construction site work in construction.
[00:29:29] spk_1: Well, I think that that was, um um I'm looking at this, and I think that that might throw some people off. I mean, I think is a great recommendation. Don't get me wrong, but I think that it might throw some people off, especially when you first tell them that is like, What do you What do you mean? Go in and work in the front line?
[00:29:43] spk_0: Don't you know what it's for? Everybody. Yeah, Yeah,
[00:29:48] spk_1: but I mean, I think it's great, because that way, you get to really have a true experience off how it iss opposed to it just being, uh ah process or book knowledge. or something that you read or something that somebody else told you. Being out there in really seeing how the work is done, opposed to the how the work is imagined is much different.
[00:30:10] spk_0: I can tell you this for a fact I worked for Ah, a lot of years on the front line. I got to know a lot of people. Uh, Delta. I went over to the corporate office and started working there. Every time I worked on a project and went back to the field, they knew me.
[00:30:27] spk_1: They
[00:30:27] spk_0: knew me. And so it was. It was it was easy to move forward because I already had that relationship. I could talk their language. I fit in with them. So So I think there's a lot of benefit to that. And you know what? If you don't for a year or two years, I mean, it won't be the last thing. Every two on bond. That's the time to do it.
[00:30:53] spk_1: Now, Pat, I have a question for you. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book? And what it what it focuses on?
[00:30:59] spk_0: Sure. It z selling. Thank you to the front lines basically, uh, my stories and the lessons I've learned about safety throughout my career. And it starts. Um, black three. It comes through through my days before I got into safety of Delta has learned this then and essentially. Uh, hey, this is, uh if I was starting over today, these were some of the things I would be doing that and that's that's really that's what it's about on
[00:31:34] spk_1: where and where can they actually go and find it if they're looking for And what's the title? Of course.
[00:31:40] spk_0: Thank you to the front line. Okay, It's available on Amazon and it Zamel through CRC press.
[00:31:48] spk_1: And then what if they're interested in about learning more about your virtual conference? Is that you actually put on in the virtual courses? Where can they find out? More
[00:31:57] spk_0: information? E. S carol safety dot com. It's Carol with K. Went on and went out like saying that and Christmas here, um, Ali, with a k
[00:32:14] spk_1: good way to put it. And then you do have something coming up here. If unless I'm letting out the cat out of the bag, you have something coming up on the 15th of February.
[00:32:23] spk_0: Correct? Well, you know, that's interesting. You say that? I did. So I was doing a one day workshop for SSP. Okay? And it was canceled.
[00:32:33] spk_1: Okay, so maybe I shouldn't
[00:32:35] spk_0: say that again. You know, we'll go through. Life is a series of ups and downs, especially if you're consulting. E. I was disappointed when that happened. I know now I have having lost a couple of jobs over the past few years and makes me,
[00:32:56] spk_1: you
[00:32:56] spk_0: know, it takes me a little while to get over something like that. Once I do. I recognized right away that when when one door closes, ah, bigger door is gonna open. We have to be ready and be looking for that big door. And the big door here is that I wanna do this workshop on my ass or
[00:33:15] spk_1: power to you. I really do. I really do like what you've done. You're you're taking that and you're making it something entirely
[00:33:21] spk_0: different, E I mean, it's ready to getting out on bond eso If I can't do with SST, then I'll do it on my own. And so that z opportunity. That's the bigger door. I think that's open and maybe I've got a chance out of reach. More people. Who knows? I don't I don't know unless I try.
[00:33:42] spk_1: Oh, absolutely. I agree with you. Well, Pat, I really do appreciate you coming on to the show today.
[00:33:47] spk_0: Thanks so much for having me. I enjoy chatting.
[00:33:50] spk_1: So what do you think? A lot of information to cover here with Patrick today. Hopefully, we'll have him back on in the very near future. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Patrick as much as I did. Well, don't worry. This brings another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. We'll be back before too long. Goodbye for now,
[00:34:28] spk_0: the one smooth The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host and its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based only on very limited and dated open source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the physician of the company. No part of this podcast maybe reproduced stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written commission of the creator of the podcast, Jay Allen.