Safety FM with Jay Allen
Joseph Kauffman
June 9, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show, we speak with National Safety Council Rising Star Award Winning recipient Joseph Kauffman. Joseph and Jay discuss the world of safety, how Joseph got into the world of safety. They also discuss what the newer generation safety professional might need to focus on to get to the C Suite. Enjoy it all today on The Jay Allen Show. Want the unedited early version of the show, join us on Patreon.

This is what this show is brought to you by safety. It begins in Orlando, Florida, and Travelstead Lated West beaming across North America and planet on Your Hair World of Safety never stops. And now the safety FM podcast and broadcast with Dr J. Allen. Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the J. Allen Show. Today's Tuesday, June the Ninth. I hope everything's going well in your neck of the woods with everything going on in this world currently got a lot going on today, so I don't want to take up too much time here at the beginning and let us get started with our conversation that we had today with Joseph Kaufman.  The name of Joseph Kaufman should sound familiar, but if you're not familiar with him, let me kind of give you a brief bio on him. Joseph is a graduate of Columbia Southern University with a Bs and occupational health and safety. Joseph has worked as an emergency responder. He has been a safety professional for over 15 years. In the course of that career, Joseph has won the National Safety Council rising Star of Safety Award back in 2017 so without further ado. Let's not take too long and let's get you started with our interview today with Joseph Kaufman.  Joseph, welcome to the show. So how are you? Yeah, Things were going pretty good. Beautiful day here in the jersey. Just, uh, trying Teoh plug along, you know, do, uh, new worlds in the in the new norm as they like. So I'm gonna torture you with some of the families things I'm gonna go through. I'll try to give the explanation. I don't normally do any kind of introductions right now. When I go back and do the editing, I'll go ahead and do the introduction there. Just so you're aware if we were doing it live, I would have all kinds of weird sound effects and all that kind of 40.  With that? Yeah, When I was listening, I was like, Man, this guy knows how my mind works a time. So I have to tell you, I was kind of hanging out on LinkedIn and I found some older stuff about you and I would like Then I found some newer stuff and I was like, We have to have you on. So that's how the invite came about. I normally like to ask people the standard question. That's probably gonna be the most obvious. Out of all of them. Under hold meat safety start.  Well, you know, I really bring it back, Teoh. You know, when I grew up, you know, I know. I've told this story before that you know, my father, you know, before I was probably six, got hurt in a a work related accident, hurt his back at 67 back surgeries. I never went back to that job. Really reinvented himself after that, you know? And later in life, you know, my wife, her father is a Vietnam veteran. You know, he was exposed to Agent Orange. And so, you know, it really taught me a lot of lessons about how these work injuries can kind of, you know, Carrie and stay with you for a long time.  And, you know, um, I think that's the approach I try to take and safety idea how my own personal, uh, life was changed from some of these things. And so I want to make sure that I, uh you know, I try to help as many people as I can, So when you start off. And this was something that occurred at a very young age. You already kind of have an idea on what it was going to look like that you're gonna do moving for. Did you look at it and go, OK, I know.  I want to go into X already. Knowing what? Ex wives? No, I had no idea, actually. And so, you know, early on, um, when I turned 16 I joined a local volunteer rescue squad, you know, and that was very good for me. And I became a line officer there. And, you know, I ever had a lot of calls, and I really thought, Well, this is the direction I'm going in, you know? And eventually, um, you know why I decided I had an offer at a manufacturing facility that they need a lot being a young guy, you know, and just getting started.  That seemed like where I wanted to go, you know? And so then I went into the manufacturing world, and I really kept his safety response, you know? And I will say that, you know, in my life, safety response was something happens. You respond to it. You know I mean, and I didn't really going on me at the time. That safety wasn't really that right over that. That's emergency response. And so, um, I always pictured. Safety is something happens. You respond to it the beginning, you know? And so I really didn't understand the concept of safety when I was young and just starting out, Other than again going back to the root thing, which is I wanted to help people, you know?  So as you look at it, do Ugo, most people don't really You want to get anything involved with safety until something catastrophic happens or something. Major crisis inside of their life, for the most part, is that how you how you visualize it from? Not from a safety perspective, But when you start looking down the path and of course, this is passed ends almost. I'm not asking for future crystal ball. We'll get to those questions later. Of course, Yeah, I think that, you know, you have two different types of safety people.  You know, you have the types that are analytical in their thought approach, and they're able to get subject matter and sort of ah, apply that in any sort of analytical and quality approach. And then you have those who sort of have this teens sense of, you know, what is going on at the plant and then they want to apply. You know, there are rules to it. I think that we all meet in the middle, you know, and that's that's kind of how I approach. I don't know that anybody is sitting there going.  I want to be a safety manager. You know, I think that it's sort of a lot of things it's a people stumble into, although I think what a lot of these degrees and things like that that have come out, it's made it a lot easier for people to sort of go right into the field. Percent of being the person has 20 years experience in just his safety guy, right? Well, I mean, and that's the interesting part because there are a lot of degrees coming out now that she could actually to put into the safety world.  Now I have not me Personally. I have not seen a lot of safety degrees that kind of go into the corporate world. If that makes sense, war there is like a C suite level, if if that makes sense, well, I mean, that's and I think that that's becomes one of those interesting and difficult parts to an extent. And I would love to get your opinion on it, where when you go into the C suite or if you have the opportunity, people want you to actually establish yourself before you're able to enter End.  What is your thought behind that? Do you think that people should come up through, like, operations or manufacturing or something that's not safety before they can go into the C suite level from a safety perspective or torture thoughts? You know, I think Number one If I review in my own personal career, you know, one of the things that I really became a factor was I had to mature myself. Is an adult, right, because I think that if we could go into these situations and collaborate a lot of different ways, safety is just sort of an offshoot of when I was a manufacturing production supervisor on things like that, you know, you are looking to solve a problem with your a manufacturing person.  Your problem is you need to keep our manufacturing going safety. You know, if you have an injury or you have a problem there, you know, it's it's again assess what you have it and trying to fix it. So, you know, I think experience is good because I think when we all get into safety in the very beginning, we sometimes have this grandiose view of how easy is gonna be the realistic change. And sometimes we realized, you know, I think you know, certainly your level. You realize it isn't that.  I think I have also realised that. But I think that it also teaches you different ways to do things. And you really become there again to get to your point about the C suite. It makes you a better person overall from the Grand Company perspective. Now, as you take a look at the approach that you did, so you went in. You know where you got to college? You decide to go down the business going into the business section before you start going into the safety side. Now, if you had a new safety profession or someone who was interested in safety, would you say that's the route that they should go.  That's tough to say. I mean, I'll tell you, Jay, if I'm being honest about my career, I think I did everything the hard way. You know, I didn't I did not. I didn't go to college, you know, right off the bat. And so I got that manufacturing job. And as we talked about my soul view was money, right? And, you know, even in high school, I wanted to get by, you know, I didn't want to do well. I didn't want to excel. And so then I got into college, you know, And I did want to do well.  And I found that, you know, at every level since Stan, it's mattered more to me to put my best self out there. You know, I think that the thing is, you know, people have to understand that having a degree and coming out of school isn't you know, it isn't a green light to give you that that job, right? You have toe have other intangibles such as, you know, being able to communicate, being able to team building and things like that. So I don't think that you need but safety degree to be a safe person.  I just think you need the right person to take you along. Um, you know, and I think that I myself have as it grew into my career. Some of those people that have helped take me along and bring me up haven't been safety people. It's just been people to get you to look at things in a different way. Whalen Shug Hey, J just wanted to tell you I have a new book, and it seems kind of timely, although I didn't write it for a global pandemic. And by the way, this is my 1st 1 It seems to have lots of legs on this topic.  The book's called When the Worst Accident Happens, and it's a field guide to understanding how to begin a restorative process of responding to a horrible event. That book is available now on Amazon. I think you'd like it. Tell all your friends, eyes streaming now on safety FM dot Life Way are back on the Jalen Show on safety. I think it's interesting a couple of things that you said there be his as I take a look at your career now, of course, you have that we have to do, search on lines and try to find things to that extent you went from not caring in trying to excel based on what you just said.  Of course, to all of the sudden, when you decide to go to get your safety degree, you currently commodity. I mean, you definitely change your mental model. Onyx selling for sure, Sure. I mean, it felt like, you know, when I saw the safety opportunity, that was the brass rain, so to speak, right? That was something I thought, Wow. I really didn't know this was a thing. And I want to do well in it, you know? And it really, um it really was supportive. A lot of people around me that thought, you know, you know what?  You've always driven yourself to do the best you can at work. And, you know, it's time I was doing a physical labor, a Prussian job, even as a supervisor. And, you know, I just didn't think that, you know, that was ultimately the best thing I could do. You know what I mean? I knew I had more in me, and so, um, I was fortunate to be able to get into a position that they couldn't fill, You know, early is an occupational health specialist, and, you know, even allowed me to be any empty.  And it also allowed me to experience the world to safety university response. And, you know, um, I think those of us who have done safety your I'm sorry, an emergency response. You know, we'll tell you that the adrenaline rush is something you really, uh, like, um and so, you know, a few years it into that, I started to ask for career advice, you know, because I had taken classes, you know, at Georgia Tech, and I have done some other things, and I was trying to figure out What is that next level look like, You know, and I remember getting the advice that you need to put the radio down.  And what the person simply meant by that was, you know, it's not safety response, right? It's How do you fix a safety problem? And yet to be analytical and think about it and collaborate things like that? And for me, that made sense, you know? Although I will tell you for me, you and I'm sure for others it's hard at times to do that. So that would be the next question. Of course. How was the difficulty of doing that? Because if you're going to all of a sudden that you're so used to will say the firefighting aspect of where you're running in your trying to solve problems instead of actually kind of trying to build out the structure to it How did you How did you go through adjusting to that?  Was it a difficult thing to do? Are harder to come about for you? Yeah, I think it was a difficult thing to Dio and again, I look at my career sort of over different levels of maturity, you know? And so initially that side of the non response right to eat, the other part of it, the business end of it will say, didn't initially make sense to me. But then, you know, the just because I think I know doesn't mean I'm gonna get my way. Didn't work anymore, right?  You know, and all of a sudden I realized that you had to have good communication. You had to sort of, you know, bring people where you're at, You know, you also had to meet people where they are. You know, all those sort of cliche statements. But at the same time, you know, your no manufacturing manager or your engineering manager they don't necessarily always see it the same way you do. And so unless you look too partner with these people and really bring them into the solution, it's a challenge, you know?  And I think that even for me, it was it was a different mindset. So yeah, I think in the beginning, it was, I think now, um, you know, sometimes when I'm trying to explain safety to people's, you know, I really think sometimes I have to oversimplify it because, you know, people are always trying to ask you, What is it that you really do you know so well. You sell the intend herbal What they can't touch, feel or look at that. That's what you do, your evangelist. Exactly.  I love That is awesome. I thought, Well, you look at this whole thing. How did you have people buying into what you had? How did you get to these partnerships? And when I started dressing these questions, I'm really looking to be able to you be able to give some of our listeners, you know, some different perspectives on things that have worked for other people, that they might be able to use it. Their current organization. Sure. You know, I would say that early in my safety career I was fortunate because I had been a production person there for many years, and so they all knew who I was.  And so in many of them knew, you know, I had a good heart, you know, when it didn't didn't continue, that I could go up in the level I wanted to be at their that became, you know, more difficult. I would say right, because I no longer had that you've known these people for 10 years, so, you know, easy to fall back on. So, um, I think relationship building and trying to learn about safety problems, you know, and I agree. And I, you know, crevasses with obviously the very dangerous stuff you need to handle right away.  But you also need to learn sort of what is all leading to, you know, the issues and many times you solely trying to figure that problem now is the wrong approach. Because you don't always know why people are doing what they're doing. And I think it's important to build those relationships so that they feel comfortable speaking with you. Um, and at that point, you know, you were now working as a team. You know, you wanna be able to show people a lot of this isn't punitive. It's It's for the purpose of battery us all, You know, on a higher level when I'm trying to explain to manage the supervisors.  You know, I'm always just explaining to people that hurting people is bad business. It doesn't need to be a notional law. It doesn't need to be a worker's comp close. You know, we lose money every time we do that. And, you know, I know that that, you know, at the end of the day, businesses that don't make money all of a sudden you're not doing anything and you're out jobs. So we have to look at it. Eyes on one side is a business, and on the other side is we have to protect our people.  And, you know, protecting our people is good business, right? I mean, getting in a whole bunch of cash in the front door of a bleeding in through the back end is not going to do any kind of solving or any kind of solutions for most businesses. Is your fully are aware. So I see that you were out of one particular organization for quite a while, and that's where the shift occurred. So you were on the operations side. Then you go into the safety side hot. Is that crossing that will say, crossing the line go for you.  How do the people have the buying right away? Do they buy into to your methodology of which your which are trying to do from the safety standpoint, going forward as you do that from operations to the safety side, I think that, you know, on face value, yes. Obviously it is easier for me to have made that transition and someone walking in the door. Um, you know, I will say that, you know, I've also had that you know, we'll say in charge approach because I was leader of the emergency response team.  So I knew what it meant to be in charge and also sort of understood safety side of it. Now that didn't always mean that you know, my passion triggered a media change and, you know, we would just run with whatever I said, Um, and for me, I I think that was no ah challenge. Because, as I said, this team's I needed in manufacturing and you know, those communications skills, that the things we're trying to convey their at times were different than the ones that we were trying to convey on safety and of things.  And so, you know, I think that is, it is a transition for anybody coming out of it because it's not the same roles, but at the same time, you know, you need to rely on the the communication skills that you've built these relationships with, because at times, you know if people know your heart or they know you know where your coming from. It's not his biggest challenge. When you say something, you know that debate create difficulties such as, you know, Hey, my one goal at one time was to make production goals right, all the certain.  Now my goal is to protect people. Will that make that may interfere with those production goals I once had? You know, that's not only an interesting conversation, especially when you have to bring that of the first time. How do they look atyou? How do they How do they communicate? How are they? Okay with what you're saying now? Now that I'm saying you were trying to get anybody injured in the first place because I know sometimes people get very thrown off when I asked that question. But it's really that first referred to when you're changing on how do people buy in?  They get what we knew you before. That's not how you were. And now you've changed. Did you get any of that? I don't So for me, I don't think I changed with my mental process Waas in that again. I go back to the root, which is I always wanted to protect people. That's just who I was person. And so for me, um, you know, it didn't change much. I would as a partisan manufacturing, I would always try to make sure everybody was wearing their PPE. I would walk around.  We would make sure that if we had on such unsafe situations, we would shut down. And so I think that you know, those things need to be in still, noxious is your safety person, but they need to be in steel, then still does a as an organization because people need to feel in power to make these choices when sometimes your safety people are around or they need. That decision is being made quickly, you know? So as you look at these things moving forward all of a sudden, you're at this organization for a long period of time.  You decide to change to a different organization. You're there for a couple of years. You go from a safety manager, you move up into a director position, then you move into this other company. But at the same time that you're at this other company or shortly thereafter, the National Safety Council all of a sudden presents you with the 2017 rising stars of Safety. How does this come about? Well, you know, I really have a lot of success, You know that that first job you spoke about becoming a director, you know, and it really was relying on communicating with people.  Explain to people what my role was and how we were trying to help them. What the things were that we were saying And so I began to have success there in terms of, you know, lower the injury rate, things like that. Um, you know, and so that second position I always talk about with people, you know, timing, right? Sometimes timing is everything. Um, and at that position, I was driving for those of the folks there in Philadelphia. I was driving Scougall Expressway for the nearly the entire length every day, which meant I didn't really exceed 10 miles an hour for half the time.  And, you know, I had a long commute, and, you know, this company came to me, and then, you know, it was a recruiter, and it just ended up working out. And so I started to apply the same type of methodology there, there, um, we were having fleet safety issues, you know, they were serves about a vehicle accidents. There was a culture of speed, Um, and really nobody to enforce that. And so that became a much more difficult conversation because, you know, unlike some other organizations, you know, they were built on trying to get as much done as they could.  Um, and that didn't always include doing it, you know, at the correct speed or it will say in the safest manner. So I started to approach it differently, right? And that we were operating in many different states. We had different offices, be a different divisions. And so I thought the tools that they were using the monitor of this right, you know, the monitoring or speed or the mining acceleration and all this stuff It was not a good way to do it to make it tentative, right? But people love to compete with each other, You know what I mean?  It's so I made it a competition off. How good to you, Dr you don't mean. And basically, we began to have conversations with folks, you know, whether it was are, you know, safety meetings or you know all that. And we begin to develop champions that we needed to walk the walk in those particular instances and we started to find was, you know, the average speeds were dropping. Thes speeding violations were dropping. The aggressive stops, stars, they were going down. And so, you know, began to become this ripple effect roll.  Sudden, you were having significantly less auto claims at same time again, I think you always have to show people who you are. The drivers started to realize that. You know, I wasn't safety cop, right? My job was to to show them that there's a way to do it and that, you know, in the whole scheme of things, you doing 20 miles an hour over the speed limit for 10 minutes doesn't get you a whole lot, you know? I mean it. And we tried to start to explain that to that.  You know, I think I was lucky to get a lot of buy in on that. So I credit the people that were around me that to kind of help prove those safety scores, which, you know, they improved. You know, I think that we were at one point in the eighties, they went all the way. It's about a 97. So that was That was a key thing for May. I felt like, you know, I had a rise, so to speak at that point. So how did the National Safety Council find out about this?  Was something that you were implementing? So, you know, my supervisor was the vice president of Human Resource is Actually he was a former safety guy, which was, you know, it was funny because, you know, you had somebody to bounce things off on. Do you know, I don't know that everybody's always lucky enough to have somebody that that has sort of walk in their shoes your report to But I waas and you know, he one of the things we did was he became members of the National Safety Council of that organization.  And then from there, he found out about the award. He nominated me and I was selected and, you know, it was a great group of people's to be selected. And I mean, I can't tell you. My response was frankly, I broke into tears because I didn't really know, uh, where the impact I made it up till that point. You know, Hop, University. We cut the bull out of human and organisational performance training. We were born out of Necessity way. Hear it all the time. Human. An organization formed Courses are expensive and hard to find.  Safety classes Put me to sleep. Help. So we did. We offer on demand high quality online courses in human and organisational performance, safety and leadership all in by season safety and hot practitioners. No need to schedule time for that conference. No need to track down the latest guru in no stuffy classroom required. Join Us Day at Hot university dot org's That's H o P. University dot org Way Are looking for the next big safety podcasts. This is the contest. Oh yes, the contest. After producing and creating in interacting with several different artists, podcasters and broadcasters, we want to offer to you the possibility of becoming the next big safety podcast.  What do you need todo right now If you go to safety FM dot com four slash contest that safety FM dot com fort slash contest You have the possibility of being the next big safety podcast you in your show it come onto the Safety FM network For the next year, we will host your podcast on our servers. We will give you access to the safety FM broadcast network and, of course, access to the safety FM. Listeners come by to the website to enter that safety FM dot com four slash contest You can enter in daily.  This contest is only valid for the United States of America. Please look at contest rules on the website way are back on the Jalen Show on safety, and it's an amazing accomplishment, especially when you know your peers recognize some of the things that you're doing and especially to to do it. It's which such high esteem that they decided to move forward And have you recognized on a national platform? Yeah, Like I said, I think that, you know, when I look at it, I look at it is you know, I always start to hear the stuff and the people of great content linked in You hear these people on.  It's like, Man, we could probably award half of these folks awards because, I mean, everybody's break, you know? And I think that, you know, my my feeling was you know, this was one small section of something that really worked Well, you know, I had to learn from it, and I think that that has carried me forward probably more than anything that this sort of this next level of safety that you know, I made a plan, I communicated it. I made sure it wasn't punitive. I made sure that our approach was rewarding people.  If we had to coach people. We did, but it wasn't, You know, we weren't, you know, bringing him in and put them in front of supervisor at yelling, screaming at him. You know, it was Here's what happened. You know, we got a heartbreak alert. You tell me what happened at that time. You know that those were the types of things that you know, you would find out. Oh, well, you know, yes, he had a heart break alert. But, you know, somebody ran a red later in front of me, and I avoided it s so that that's the type of stuff that you know, If you just immediately go after these alerts and you don't try to find out the old story sometimes you know you're not getting the big picture.  So a couple questions out of there then number one was the organization. Did it have any kind of tying to D O T? So they have to meet GOTV regulations in the number to the system that you actually put in was a member beast or was it just more of ah vehicle tracking? So you know, we were under dut way. Not everybody obviously was. CDL base. But as you know, we we based, also plays a factor. And, you know, we had folks that needed medical cars, things like that.  Um, we did begin to pilot camera programs, so, you know, and personally everybody, everybody loves a good camera. I can tell you from practice. Everybody loves a good camera specially right next to him. The whole time, I thought, Well, I always say to people that, you know, this is the safety story is you know, the first question you need to ask about any incident is Do you have a camera and not necessarily because you want to use it against them. But, boy, sometimes it tells stories that even both sides of that story were completely unaware of, you know, and that's that's the key to it.  But yeah, way did pilot a camera program. We were using the telematics on error. And so, um, you know, the telematics was able to produce scores. And even with the absence of cameras, you know, we were able to a time to be able to tell what was going on, what wasn't going on. And, you know, because of the cameras to me, I think from a risk and safety perspective are critical for those that have fleets that you really can incur significant losses. You know, it doesn't Doesn't take a huge accident with, you know, a fatality.  Also lead up to a major event. You know, you could have five people in a vehicle that you hit actually know. All five of them are claiming against you, so no, I mean, it can change things relatively quick, so I have to ask. So you do this particular program, it seems like it's pretty successful. You get nationally awarded, then you decide to move to another organization. Do you bring in this program that you had used previously as part of you getting in? There are weddings of making your mind up, but you want to change.  So this, actually, you know, we talked about switching teams from manufacturing to safety, and this role was unique because they were basically looking to liaise medical, occupational health care as a health care system with employers and what they need. And so because I began my career in occupational health, sort of the safety aspect of it, I was very aware of, you know, in pence ability, record ability, safety and all that. And at the same time, um, you know, I had had success with working with the occupational health providers.  I had built occupational health programs that many of those companies in different states. And so I consider myself fortunate, because I met with a lot of good doctors and clinics and things like that. You know, I believe, you know, is a safety person. If you're not talking to your occupational health people, they're trying to figure out what you want as opposed to, um if you really coming up with a collaborative solution. Well, as people are always looking for the secret sauce, what would you say? What your secret is to for you to being successful, to make it to the level chief May attitude so far in your career.  I find that to be a tough question. But, you know, I think that I Yeah, yeah, I think that you know, when I when I think about it, you know it. My motivation level changed it every single aspect of my life. And so, you know, I look at the different things that were going on, and like I said At first, you know, I was the job I was doing at manufacturing was night work, right? And I worked my way into being a supervisor. Hey, got some day work out of that, you know, be when I became safety, I had straight.  They work, you know? And then I I motivated myself. Well, I really like safety. I want to do more, you know? And so I, you know, is things like my family that supports me. It's things like, you know, uh, the awards that I will say at you know, at times they could really help bring you up when you don't necessarily feel like, you know, you're doing as well. And I mean, you know, sometimes it's just you I I love going on linked in listening to people who want to motivate You mean that there's there's people that I've met along the way.  Uh, you listen to their stories and you're like, Man, I want to run through a wall. You know that? That's I think that's the aspect that I try to take. I find myself, um, having been in manufacturing, having been any empty and a responder, um, I wanna win. You know, I mean, an ad, that's that's just my approach. I always want to win. And I think I have to caveat that with you're gonna lose sometimes. You know what I mean? I think that's ah, you know, you can't always think you're always gonna wear Well, let's talk about some of that right there.  That and let's kind of unpack some of your answer. You meet a couple of references there. Number When you said the importance of your family and then number two, you made reference that, you know, you're not always successful in the things that you're doing. You're an award winning National Safety Council rising star. So most people would look at. How could this be possible? Could you go a little bit deeper there if you don't mind? In regards of letting people know that you still do fail even at these different levels?  Yeah, I think that's you know it's fair. And I think, you know, I think successes or big successes, you know, there hard to come by, you know, when and I mean that by award winning successes. Um, you know, I think that you have to take any small when you get. And I think you have to know when to pick your battles. So, um, whether it is, you know, you find a great piece of safety equipment that somebody doesn't want to pay for, um, and they don't see the merit of it or, you know, you're sort of being run over by a plant management.  I think that, you know, you always need to be aware where where is your line, You know what I mean? And I can think, you know, one person I heard speak about this was Jewell. James, you know, and I think that when I heard her give a list, I mean, the list I wrote down on a podcast at one time. And, you know, I wrote to three things down, and I went, you know, this is three things on. They were deal breakers. I saw. You know what?  I'm gonna move on at that point. You know what? I could see what place that was, but to me, it's like you have to know what your breaking point is. Right after you get to a point where you're at that point, you know? Then you need to consider moving on. You can't Can't sell yourself out for, um for anybody you know, there's that there's an ethics. So what we do is safety professionals and, you know, and I think that we have to be true to ourselves, and like I said, going back to just sort of who I am I always try to be true to my people.  So would you see, to an extent when you put your ethics in place, there's a hard line in the sand where you have to make the decision from there. Um, I think that as I've gotten older, the line moves in time. So I think you know, when you first get into safety, there are times where you're gonna you're gonna counter these things, and you have to decide is this amount I want to die on. You know what I mean? Because there are times especially depending on what level you're at, I'm sure you would agree that you lose the times, you know, And if you if everything you feel is a loss, you know, you're ever gonna really appreciate the winds, you know, So that, I think, is to me it's a port to, um, you know, just really have tempered expectations.  You're there to make change. You're not always there too. Change the world in three months, you know? Well, I mean, I think that sometimes some of us safety professionals believe that we're gonna walk and we're gonna change everything in a moments notice not realizing that there's sometimes tons of work that needs to be put into place Before, you could even have the buy in from the people that were there. So with the success that you've had with people buying in, what would you tell a brand new safety professional on what they should do when they start down at a new organization?  Lum official learn. I mean. And I mean, I know that's a broad statement, but I mean, they need to meet people. They need to talk to people they need. Teoh really get a sense of what is going on. I mean, the reality is, you know, and I said this before, but I go, I tell people, Yeah, actually was talking to somebody who was getting into safety. And they said to be What advice can you give me? And I said they're not hiring you because if they don't eat you, you know, I mean, if they would, they wouldn't do that.  So they're bringing you in because there's problems to be fixed. And so I think you have to recognize that is the bar rate. If you go in and there's problems and you are trying to contribute to better those problems and those problems still exist, that's not a failure on your part. You know, you need to continue to work on it. It's when those problems are exacerbated by choices you've made that you need. Do that, consider whether or not you're being effective and that that you know, all right, I know it's kind of hard done packed up, but I think you need Teoh.  You know, understand that again. You're not always going to be successful. And so the longevity of it is really starting to understand. What is it about my approach that wasn't successful, that I cannot explain it? Well, is it a money related thing? Um, you know, is there a piece of this that they have in their head that you didn't touch on and they didn't know and you're just not communicating well, um, you always have to try to understand. So how much is business changed for you? Since Kobe 19 has presented itself.  So, you know, my world right now is is again, I'm sort of liaison between companies and South Jersey and, you know, a health care system in which we provide occupational health care. When cove in 19 hit, many, many businesses experienced significant changes. And, you know, we were one of them because, you know, we went from seeing, you know, certain amount patients a day. Teoh. Probably a 90% drop, you know. And then, um you know, I think vividly as to what that looked like. You know? I remember. Um It was Friday, the 13th in March, and I got a notification.  My kids, we're not gonna be going back to school as of that Monday on, and I just thought to myself, Well, I wonder what this means, you know? I mean, and by the next by that Monday, you know, we were working on a Covic response chip plan. Is an organization sort of in the ambulance worry world. Right meeting. You know me not in the hospital. Obviously, they have their own plans. And so, um, I thought to myself, You know, you have to be adaptive, right? You have to see what the next thing is gonna be to help companies, you know, And I don't need it in a business standpoint, but I just said to myself, All right, well, you know, we got businesses closing.  Where are people gonna need help? You know what aren't They are what aren't they going to understand? In this case, I do not know enough about Cove in 19 myself to really have a good answer. So I we immediately began to think we're gonna need to be able to help companies with fitness for duty returned to work and also, you know, work related covert exposures. And and that is a finish that I think that, you know, we hit on. Um and I think that, you know, we have been able to help companies, you know, sort of across the South Jersey region and help people continue to operate, you know, without sort of overreacting and shutting everything down and at the same time making sure that we're giving people the right message and making sure that we're keeping, uh, folks informed as to what these return to work criteria are from the CDC, which I'm sure you follow this cheese a couple times and, you know, for us, it's his constant messaging.  And talking to people on the big joke became, you know, that we felt like we were doing four times the work for half the business. But at some point, you know, Cove in 19 became such a thing that that, you know, it was no longer after business. It was significantly more business that we have been doing. And so it became him port to, in my opinion, make sure that we were giving every single company his own unique experience, right? You can't You can't. It's not No, no. One safety program works.  No. One. Occupational Health Program works. And so we have made it a point to really understand what that company is looking for. Um um, and take their approach, you know, be it. They want people quarantined sometimes is a tree. You know, some essential workers who continue to work while they're waiting for results. Things like that. So, um, again, I will tell people you need to be able to read what your risk is you need to be able to understand how things are changing in front of you.  Um and you can't sit on your hands when that's happening, and then you also need to understand where your people are and try to beat them there. And so for us, I think that we knew that our clients were going to eat us. J. Allen Show Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need. Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford's large safety of best safety shows on the planet on safety FM dot com Way are back on the Jalen shut on safety and Aziz, you take a look at where do you get a lot of your source information from where you're seeing All these things are changing and you are you mostly through the CDC or worry, Or is there any additional places it should recommend for the audience?  So you know we have it, of course, will be open to the public. Yeah, I agree. I would tell you that you know, we have a service that is a service that the Rex folks to, um your travel medicine, I would say so, meeting. And you want to take a vacation? You're gonna goto Costa Rica here of the vaccines that you need. But that service became very, very helpful because that service was able to start to say, Here are the trans. Here's what they're seeing. Here's what they're recommending.  And so we began to get those reports every day and, you know, that was one way of it. Obviously, we also had an operation center that also is able to update. What is happening in South Jersey is supposed every other location. You know, I was I stayed up on potions, guidance, just trying to understand that, you know, I think one of the things that's recently come out and you know this is this is new, but it's something I think that many companies uses. National Safety Council just came out with that safer program.  I don't know if you got a chance to take a look at that, but manage it covers a lot of ground, and it covers a lot of ground in a way that somebody would say, Well, here's my tape of business, and I'm going to use these checklists. Why things now? Just do you see us going back to what we considered the norm before all this happened? Of course, that's an opinion. Questions. So I don't want anybody to come back and be like Joseph Kaufman said, I just want to make sure that we follow along that it is an opinion question for Yeah, I would say, you know, just to clarify I'm not a doctor, but my opinion is that, you know, if I'm assessing the risk out there, I think that for now, you know, we're gonna get in you to encounter this, And I think that, you know, it depends where your listeners were at.  You know, I caution people to to think about that a little bit and understand that you know, the jersey, you know, the second highest total of the entire country. For us, it's different than you know, other states who haven't had that kind of impact. You know, I think that when I look at it, you know, and I go on, say to myself, You know, I always wash my hands. And you know, I always made sure I was careful. And now I think about it Review. And I don't think I did a good enough job.  And I think that if we all take a self assessment of the things that we did, right, you know, I saw ah beam on Facebook. That just said something as simple is remember when we used to blow on a birthday candles on doing something, and I'm thinking like, Wow, that seems so simple. Yeah, but, you know, I don't know what you do now, and I would tell you that, you know, I've always been a hand shaker, you know? I mean, and I don't I find myself not knowing what to do, you know what I mean?  It's just such a a different world for me. And, you know, I think that we will get back to a sense of normalcy, But it may not be what we had before that, and and I think that you bring up some excellent points there that people really need to look at where it's actually based on where they're at, because I think that sometimes we tend to forget that because you might be in the middle of America and it might be an entirely different world what it is in New Jersey.  I'm here in Florida, where it could be much different, depending even just in the county. That urine, I mean, of course, being so close to good old Disney here. It's a world of difference when Disney closes down compared to the to the rest of the world. So more people want to know more about you working. They go to get to more information. Usually they can visit my LinkedIn page. I stay fairly active on there. Always welcome to contact me. You don't have to be South Jersey. You don't necessarily being about me.  I'm more than willing toe have a dialogue, you know, And I think I do try to stay active and I try to give my opinions. And, you know, some people agree with them, as I'm sure, you know, and some people do not. Right. And I think that that's what makes us great a Zeti folks, you know, don't eat your young but listed all the opinions to try to form your own. Yeah, I definitely think that there's always room for conversation. Not one method will work for everything and for everyone, for sure.  completely agree. Well, Joseph, I appreciate you coming on to the show today, while I greatly appreciate you having me. And I look forward to listening Teoh. So far, I love how in depth Joseph went in regards of his career and how he referenced just because he is an award winning rising star recipient does not mean he does not have his moments of doubt. I truly appreciate him coming on today to discuss that matter. Thank you for what you guys do for our community of safety professionals and always taking a listen to our station. Here.  It's safety FM, as you always have many options here in safety FM to listen to our different podcast and radio shows that are available at safety FM dot com and its safety FM dot live. Of course, you can always come to our website and take a look at the different podcast that are available or destry. Martian shows live as they are occurring. Thank you for always being the best part of safety FM, and that is the listener. This has been another episode of the J. Allen Show, where we enjoy real safety talk.  Don't worry, we'll be back with another episode of the J. Allen show Before Too Long. Goodbye for now. Once more, the J. Allen show the views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within with podcast are only examples. 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