Safety FM with Jay Allen
James MacPherson
April 17, 2020
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay interviews James MacPherson from Rebranding Safety Podcast. During the show they talk about how James got involved in safety and what impacts Covid - 19 is having on him and his show. Enjoy it all on The Jay Allen Show. Please consider joining us on Patreon
this show is brought to you by safety Eyes streaming on safety FM dot live Hello and welcome to another episode of the J. Allen. Show, thank you for coming back to take a listen to what we have to offer. I hope you are doing okay in these unprecedented times. So please enjoy this journey today with the conversation that I have with James MacPherson from the rebranding safety podcast, James describes himself as follows. He's a regular safety and health professional, but one who has a strange hobby. In his spare time, he hosts a health and safety well being podcast in YouTube channel called Rebranding Safety.  Born out of frustration of over complicated systems in safety, gone mad practices and perceptions, James took it upon himself to publish his opinions in conversations for you to listen to. The podcast has grown fast within the first year, providing in depth discussions with many people of influence within the industry. Well, let me tell you this way. Opposed to giving you the jargon that a lot of people like to for me to read out is gonna tell you straight he has an actual The podcast is called rebranding safety.  The podcast is good. You have to take a listen to it and take a listen to what he has going on. Also, there's a lot of stuff that he's talked about where he has shown some of his frustrations on what's going on within the industry. So without taking too much more of your time, let's get you started. And let's start the conversation with James MacPherson here on the jail and show James, Welcome to the show. No. Hello? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Can you hear me?  I can. I could hear you the whole time. It was took me ages to find a sentence thing, but I found it was just picking. Yeah, it's kind of interesting on how it works. And it's a very it's kind of like a faded gear on the corner. And if you don't know exactly to look for it, it's very confusing. Should have read that. I apologize. That's our here. How are you? I'm like a cranky. How about you? Oh, I could complain, but I'm sure that people are not doing well across the board.  So I understand how that's going. Yeah, yeah, the problem is, once you start complaining at times like these, you stopped. That's exactly how it goes. The game. I knew you had actually seen one of the postings that I had actually made about actually doing, you know, having some people come on, talk about some different things and you had a you had actually reach out and said, Hey, I don't have anything to pitch, but I'd love to talk. So I want to jump in and do this. Take a listen to a couple of your different episodes and I love what you're doing actually jumping in there, having some people actually have some conversations with you, especially in how you've suspended some of the things that you were doing to really focus on this aspect of covert 19 in particular.  So why did you decide to actually kind of restructure the whole show? Just to focus on that? That's called get question. That was an interest in Ah, I say pivot, because when when it first all happened, there was there was a lot of Ah, there's a lot of people throwing their advice out into the market and and I actually said that rebrand in safety, our podcast or YouTube channel wouldn't wouldn't be doing anything on an advice people to go to the our local enforcers of the hatred see on the government web page to get their kind of on the NHS white pages right to get their advice.  Do you really wanna add to the confusion that was already out there? But there's something that I've been quite wanting to do in the podcast for a long time, which was have that panel set up which we've got currently, um, and like a linked in connection, a colleague of mine basically drop me a message, almost like, Hey, do you fancy doing like, a panel kind of thing around Corona virus And I was not sure I would like to have a discussion about it, but I want to be very clear that we're no given kind of.  Our advice is no. Well, what? You should probably listen to you. You probably go to the government, but what I am up for, it just kind of discussing our experiences, discussing our opinions and just having a relaxed conversation around it, recording that I'm publishing it out to everybody else, but being very clear that. You know, we're just here to voice our opinions, and it may or may not help you a not seem to get on well with with my kind of colleague or connection of elected. And we approach a couple of other guys.  So we've got a Johnathan Dempsey from Red Laces on. Then David MacLean, who's ex Marine turned psychotherapist in, and Christian Harris. He's like a clean and expert. Actually. Think you had Christian on your podcast way? Yeah, So we kind of all in this little what's up group when you said, Hey, guys, what do you think on? But was it really from there? I think, like two days later, we just we just had a zoom call repress record and off we went. We had a vague structure to it, but it was it was vague, to say the least.  It was really just a subject of what we were going to discuss on just kind of let the conversation. So we kind of just stop the whole podcast to kind of do that and see how it went. Now I think we've done for What we're gonna do is probably go back to the normal contact cause I've got loads of really good content. I want to put help, but I can't because we're doing this every week. So now we're going to shift to keeping the panel. We're doing it once a month, are quite like the dynamic of it.  And I think it brings you a little bit variety to listeners as well to hear someone else's voice. Well, let me ask a couple questions here if you don't mind, because of the interesting thing that has taken place is you have taken such a different approach where you didn't want to come across and okay, what I have to say, a subject matter expert, you kept on referencing going, Hey, let's take a look at what the government is telling us to dio. I know that there was one particular episode where I was where you were sitting there and you turn around and go.  There's only four reasons you should be out and you cover them directly on what the whole purpose was, which I thought was excellent. But as you decided to do this, why didn't you take the approach so many others air doing where they're saying Well, I'm a covert 19 expert, even though most of us have never even heard of this thing until it actually started coming about. Why did you say Are you want to do it so differently? Well, for that exact reason, there was a lot of people saying Way have the experts.  I think one of the biggest message I try to put across in on my pop cash to kind of our audience is that it is quite a personal thing. I find my podcast, and I try to be as or honest and authentic as I can be on Guy think that's kind of our wants a unique selling point because I think everybody is like that. But that's our kind of key token is that we're really honest, and I wanted to be honest and say, Hey, you know, I didn't see this coming the same as anybody else did.  So other than general kind of risk management and business continuity, emergency plans, things that with the all Saiki professional tonight, there's not really much out. So I can tell you that the government is already telling you. But then again, on the flip side of things it was for me. It's like in times like this, where we're all in kind of panic mode two this is essentially, when it started is in an emergency situation. I kind of looked at it like, How would I deal with, say, an emergency situation in a day job in from a safe ah, huge fire, for example, when when you're kind of talking to the fire service and working with them, it's very clear that one personal one conjurer of communication is very key.  One source of information. Whether that on the other side of that one, conjure of communication, there are several incoming streams of information, which is inevitable for the kind of the coalface of the people that are in essentially panic mode. Need that one consistent source of information I for? And I thought I didn't Assad in to the a myriad of people I add in their opinions, which probably not a good thing at that time, Um, and that is why, at the beginning of the podcast for those four that we did, I I just reiterate the government guidance every single time because I just do not want anybody to come back and be like Not not not from a sense of covering up our butts, but I don't want to add to the computer.  And I want people Teoh go to the wooden consistent source, whether in a year's time which we could, we look back at how the government manager and way probably didn't do enough. That's not the point. We can only deal with what we know now. I think we need to. We need to stick with professional with the government and the NHS who are there for a reason. Theo Island Show Hop University We cut the bull of human and organisational performance training. We were born out of Necessity way.  Hear it all the time. Human organization performance courses are expensive and hard to find. Safety classes put me to sleep. Help. So we did. We offer on demand high quality online courses in human and organisational performance, safety and leadership all in by season safety and hot practitioners. No need to schedule time for that conference. No need to track down the latest guru. No stuffy classroom required. Join Us Day at hot university dot org's. That's h o p university dot RG. Thank you for listening to safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need.  Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford slash safety of them And we are back on the J. Allen show on Safety FM. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. And I think that you bring out of an excellent point is that things are consistently going to be changing because, of course, we learn something new, something that we're doing right. Something that we're doing wrong, something that needs to change. I think that's excellent points that you are bringing up there. Now let me ask a couple of strange questions here because when you decided to actually come up with your podcast and YouTube channel, why did you decide rebranding safety?  What did you what did you look at and say We're bringing it wrong? And he said, We need to change it. I have a question thes air. The question that I have to ask you cycling. So, of course, I think advantage the opportunity. It's interesting because I think I think before before I started the podcast, I lived in this little, beautifully naive world where I thought I was the only person I had this forward thinking view, elfin safety. I hadn't been exposed to the people that I've been exposed to since being on the Pocar.  So it was interesting. I was talking to another podcaster in the UK Colin, Natasha Does he interest in sex a podcast? And here we were talking about He was comparing his to mine and I was saying I seen my podcast Is this? It is like a live version of me learning and growing a safety professional, because when I started, I was under the impression and I still under am under the impression that we do need to rebrand health and safety, and I'll come to that in the second.  But at the time, all I saw was what was immediately in front of me in the day job. All of my friends are builders and plumbers, etcetera, and they have a perception of health and safety, which I didn't see myself fit into Andi. When I went on to YouTube or look for podcast, it felt like it. Waas the same old, you know, middle aged to old white man in a shirt and tie sitting at the top of a high rise building in London, talking in a very monotonous tone.  And I just It doesn't communicate to May. It's most definitely not gonna community it to my friends. I don't know. I should be offended. No, no, It's like it's just kind of like it just didn't feel relatable for May on. That was the thing. And it's interesting because in my early entries, and this is why this kind of whole thing's been a journey, because in my early entries, I used to quite arrogantly say, You know, we are just said it, quite tongue in cheek were the best podcast for health and safety out there.  And I remember the gentleman who runs. It's an Australian forecast coming to the name anyway, said, helping take a podcast based in Australia, and he actually message me a bit like I challenge you to say that you're the best. Actually, I think we're quite good on. I was like that. It's tongue in cheek, but ever since I've started have actually I never knew I knew off Todd Conklin, for example. But I never knew of his podcast. I didn't know if your podcast now you've got Drew program easier in his pockets.  There's so much good stuff out there. But the problem is, a lot of people didn't know it, so we're quite up front as well. In our podcast, if I listened to some fits, say on your podcast, for example are quite easily say, Hey, go check out James podcast cause I was really good heard this really good episode the other day. But especially in the UK, we have a perception of health and safety that that needs to change 100 percent, and I think that still stands. And that is why that's Roy in our videos and video versions are about podcasts as well.  You know, it's not formal. We caught heavy focus on that and keep it in a wearing caps and little things like that to keep it really informal, relaxed. You know, I'm on be authentic in a way from a point of view that I do struggle not to swear sometimes So you know that podcast is my platform. So this wearing comes out, and I think for me that whole thing is like it just said, Hey, there's nothing wrong with the way we've done health and safety for the last 10 years in a way that people who have done it, they've got to a point where way stop killing hundreds of people were any killing a few 101 140 something a year on average in the UK It's a great job that we've done, Um, but now we need something else for the next generations.  And that's kind of the point was, it just didn't feel like it fit my generation, but I don't see that to be effective to anyone else. But granted. In the beginning, I was quite naive and probably a little bit arrogant as well. Well, I mean, I think it's an interesting point because here's the thing when Ugo into this and I know that sometimes people are a little bit hesitant about talking about it is that you think you have something to offer to the general audience, because if not, you wouldn't be doing it this kind of the way that it goes, there are people that are out there that they are saying that they are the best safety podcast and that because you need Teoh at least live the dream that that's who knows.  You could have the best one. I mean, you know, some people take offense to it and challenge others with ones that upset me The most are the ones that say, I don't do this to, um, to be competitive. Yeah, you dio everybody extending you r and it's like a lot of fuel that I talk to. They go well, the numbers don't matter because it's vanity metrics. Okay, so then why are you doing it? Why you are you looking at it? If it didn't matter than why even put it out there is the way that I look at her votes, the times, which is terrible thing to say.  But what I've noticed, too, is that there's a lot of good messaging that's out there. But not everybody knows where to dig. I've noticed over the last few years in particular is there so many new safety podcast to come out and there's new messaging coming out, But most people don't make it past episode 14. Yeah, but I mean by that is that they stopped recording because they don't realize how much work this is, how big your group is. If you're doing it personally. You have to hunt the person down.  You want the person down, you have the email, them verified that everything's gonna be okay. Schedule the time. Do the production. Produce it. Social media. If you're doing YouTube, we happen. Add an extra channel on top of that. And there's so many other aspects that is like, if you're not doing this for the purpose of getting the information out there and or making money off of it or marketing something, it's gonna be extremely difficult to commit so much time. And people think I'm just gonna recording. People are going to listen, and that's just not normally the case.  That stage is so true. There's so much to that, the work that goes on behind it. I do think a lot of people don't don't realize how much work it takes to edit on T. Cut it to get it to a reasonable standard. I don't get me wrong. Our first podcast we ever did was literally my hands free, plugged into my phone and I just recorded it, trained to They're just fought. Screw it, let's go. But I think this weird this week kind of thing about me that I don't like being a percentage.  And when I started, I watched the I think it was Pat Flynn. Hey, you should see a huge podcast And he said less than 9% of podcast make it past Episode 11 or something like that on average. And I was like, Well, I'm not gonna be a percentage on I'm making at least 11 episodes and that was it. We just kept going and kept going, and I think there is some other points as well. It's like I would probably home 100 and say that I'm I would say that I don't see competition in the I definitely said it when talking about the three of a kind of English podcast that we have go in.  But when I said I don't get a competition, I see it from I mean it from a point of view to say that there are people in this profession or no, even just in this profession are people with business owners, leaders, etcetera that want to listen to a health or safety podcast that do you want my style of poker's that there are people that want, you know or the everyone's here in the UK they want their style of podcast. So people that want your style of podcasts and Todd style of Parker and the more there is it is only a good thing so that I think there is competition on 100%.  And I'm not going to sit here and say I don't look at the metrics of other people's Po Carson guy. Okay, what's that person doing? I'm not, you know, But I also kind of caveat that by saying, There are people out there that want my style. They just haven't come across it yet and vice versa. I agree with that. And I think that sometimes some of the confusing is that people don't realize that you were out there doing it in. I'm going to hit a certain target.  You're going to hit a certain target. Other podcasts are gonna have different targets. So when I started trying to grab groups of people and putting them together and putting them on the safety FM station, a lot of people were like, but you already have a podcast. Why would you want to bring my show onto your network? Oh, not what I do everybody cares for. And a lot of the stuff that we talk about is human and organisational performance, at least on the shows that I dio. I started bringing some people that did behavior bay safety, and then I have people that came in and did human factors in some of the other.  Some of the other shows were like, What is wrong with you? Why are you having people on there? I was like, He's not Everybody cares what I have to say, Hey, isn't the whole purpose of actually having them listen to your concept of safety? But yes, but we have to get them there some way, some shape or some form, and they might not agree 100% and maybe today like what I have to say. But they might like somebody else, and maybe we can get them there by listening to this.  And it's not like I'm trying to transfer people over to change what they're doing. But I think it's exactly what you're saying. There's different context for everybody, like I have a guy that's on on the station. His name is Sam Goodman. He does something called the hot nerd. Some people are offended by the name it's called, and it's like, Well, he's referring to himself that he's a nerd because he digs in so much toe hop on that wing. And I've always found it interesting that people were offended by the name, but he has a really good content, but he definitely has a demo that is a younger demographic like out like.  I think it's funny because I look back. I was talking to somebody a few days ago and they would say they asked me What do you think of your 1st 100 episodes of your show? And I like and I was thinking a look at it and I went, If you look back at him, it's a love letter to Todd Conklin. It's a of how much I appreciated his work. I mean, it's pretty much that's the whole context of every single show, So if people that have not listen to my show, they will know that they don't They don't have to listen to the 1st 100 if they've already they knew about talk, that's all it is a love letter to Todd Conklin, and I have no time over the last few years and he's he's a very interesting individual and he so he goes into so much in depth about his work and the stuff that he covered.  And so in stuff that he tells me, you know, behind the scenes, I'm always amazed on just how you know how fluid he is and that because to me I had to do a lot of research and do a lot of strange things to, you know, to go. Here's my new concept. Here's what a concept that I'm thinking of. But he's just so fluid with it and it is constant, constant, constant now people that are able to do that. That's why when I started when you have time to reach out, I had seen some of your stuff online.  But I was like, OK, I want to understand it a little bit better So I was taking some of these dives and I was like Are just so impressed on the approach that you're taking and it's different and that's what I like is that it's competitive but different all at the same time, and I think that that's where some of us get hung up of Well, I don't know if I feel comfortable and it's they think it's a comfort thing with some people where they don't feel that it's okay to talk about other podcasts or other shows on their show.  Because what if my listener, all of a sudden likes your show better? Well, okay, that's what they're wanting to go. They want new information, but it's a generator Reminds me off just to kind of in our to just write you a kind of comparing the two and talking about Todd as well. It it reminds me off this this battle the I see quite a lot at the moment between light, your safety ones and your safety twos and Onda. All of that is so similar to that of what you've just said in the It doesn't matter if you're a one or a two.  As long as it works for you, it doesn't matter if you listen to rebrand in saving you or safety FM. As long as it works for you. Let's be honest. When it comes to book people don't just listen to one bloody. I listen to a lot of business podcast, but it's 100 off J. Allen show a resource site that will give you the ideas that you need more growing Your business, such as teaching resource, is because you got to be a teacher when you're out there, and that's gonna be part of your base.  Were growing a client's way have OSHA compliance topics, written programs and assessments that you could use for getting your business going. And also, it's a group community of other people are doing. What you're doing is safe. Thank you for listening to Safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need. Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford Slash Safety of em, and we are back on the J. Allen show on safety FM. People believe that, though, that all of a sudden if I listen to one, I might not listen to another, especially if it's related to the same subject.  Like I will tell you the most popular podcast in the world that I confined ranking wise. Regardless, what I look at it is Joe Rogan. When you take a look at Joe Rogan, he's a good comedian, but would you think that he would have the number one podcast. Absolutely nothing. Podcast, especially his podcast last anywhere between 2 to 3 hours. But that's the one that you know, is the measuring stick the people go to. But you look at it and go Well, I'm sure that the people listen. Joe Rogan also listen to some other things that are out there but just kind of the way that it goes, and I get I get one of the funny part is that when I speak to people who do podcast is Well, I get very hung up on the whole podcasting thing because I think it's interesting on how everyone of purchases it a little bit differently.  And some people look at it and dio I have to have the word safety in my podcast people to know that is a safety podcast. That is the whole proportion of it. I have listened to some safety podcast. They don't even talk about safety, But safety is in the title. So, James, as you decided to go down this path, what caused you to be in love with safety? What was the whole thing? What was the work? Where did the love start? where you said, OK, I want to go into this field because let's be real.  This is not the easiest field you are selling something that people can touch, feel or look at. So how did how did this? We will start working for you on Mostly suffered that they don't realize that they need or want. It's, um so I I actually went to college to be an electrician's because I had it instilled in me and my family. You weren't going to get anywhere unless you get trade behind Jeff. So you need to get a trade for it behind you. And there's two things I wanted to do.  I would be a journalist or working fear on a friend of mine actually worked in CF still does now very successful on Bond. I ended up going down that route on to be to workers of a light engineering theatre. You need to be an electrician's anyway, so it's not great. I take the family box by getting the trade behind me, and I could still go work in fear. Did that try being an electrical apprentice? Truant? One of the biggest recessions that England ever had was a bad idea, couldn't get any apprenticeships whatsoever and just ended up being a chef.  So I ended up in a local pub. Um and yeah, it was a chef for a few years, which is a good thing, because that's where I met my wife. So that was a good thing. I never say that. We've got things that ever happened. Let's get the story straight on. Dr. Yunus, I've still struggled to meet many people that have the work ethic that a chef hearts like. It's the hardest job I've ever seen a dug in Iran. There are hard jobs out there. Harder, much harder.  Debate a chef, that it was just nonstop. And then, ah, kind of left. The purpose was in bouncer out where horses and just crappy jobs. And just for I'm never I never really had any aspirations or have aspirations are in my own business. But that was about never knew what it was gonna look like. Um, I fought when I'm not gonna be a journalist now, and I'm not gonna be interfere, had nothing. And I just took a job. What was it called? Assistant health, safety, quality and environment.  The health, safety, quality environment assisted a manufacturing plant in my hometown. And then that was it. From there, it grew from This is an all right job and it pays quite well. I'll stay here, holds on a temporary contract. Then I got offered a permanent contract and I started. And I think this is actually quite a good job. And to be honest is probably one of the best jobs I've ever had. Even to this day on, Ben took on the safety side of it a lot more so when I first started, it was mostly quality that the assistant did on then to conceived in started realizing, I've got the kind of love for understanding how kind of people work, like the sociology sociology side of things in a psychology side of fiends and Andi trying to influence in people and just that, the kind of variety of it as well, like, so the love never for safety never just came out.  It just grew on, grew over the years, and the more more get into it, the more more it fascinates me. But if anyone was, say, why should I have a job in safety efforts? It's the only job in my experience you can get your fingers in absolutely every pie in the workplace. Safety is in every department. There's no other job. Like if you work in finance, you just work in finance. If you work in operation, if you just working operations, you work in safety. You have to know, find out.  You have to know operations. You after no brandy. After that comes every everything. Now, when you just so you decided it is. I mean, that's definitely a change of scenario there for more. You started a war. You got to it. Now that you have your fingers in everything, everything or had the you know if the opportunity of doing it is being in safety, as I know that here in the US, if you want to make it shoot, let's say what we call the C suite. So, like the board of people that are in charge, they require that you have X amount experience and other things as well.  Do they know heavy a chief position like a chief safety officer position in the UK? Is that something that standard there, or is it kind of rare and far between in individual companies that if there is, I find some. Sometimes you'll have you have, like a director of safety or ahead of safety of the head of safety is the most common from where I see, I've seen the odd director of safety. But what seems to be increasingly common in the UK is having ahead of safety that reports into normally like a director of operations or something like that, which I've got my own kind of crimes about.  I think I think that potentially creates a conflict of interest, but that is it. And I think that seems to be the common thing. But you are starting to see much more kind of I would say, maybe forward thinking, I don't know. But you do start to see these kind of directors of risks rose that to come up a lot more nowadays where they seem to run and everything that's a potential risk to the brand. So you might start to see a head of finance ahead of safety ahead of hate child, head of Com's whatever all sitting under ahead of Rich, a director of risk for some flight.  It does vary, but nine times out. Attend the head over wastes. It's probably one below what you record the C suite. Or if you're what I would say a potentially good business. They do sit in that kind of C suite. It does very over here, I think so. What do you What are you planning on doing next? With rebranding safety? What's the plan for the future? Attn. Moment of rebranded safety will carry on just chipping away at what we're doing in the podcast for me, you carry on being what it is.  You know, weekly episode Andi YouTube channel will continue as well. I think we've got some office to kind of come up and start monetized in it. We've got a couple of people that are eager to sponsor, one of which we will definitely go forward with. We've had him on the podcast a few times, but from there I mean, it's interesting, because for me it was like I never want I would love my own business. So let's not beat around the bush. I would love rebranded safety to become a business.  Um, we registered a business name behind. And when When you if you hear the intro it says, Brought to you by risk Fluent, which is centuries, are registered business name, but it's not a business of the mirror is not operational business. We just got the name because we didn't want anyone Teoh Nick it Way couldn't register rebranded safety because it's a phrase and not name, so they wouldn't let us register it. Um, so obviously I would love it to be a business, but I don't want it to be a consultancy like that.  I don't want to be around for everyday consultant just going out there and fire risk assessments were fire. It's not for the benefit wrong with that, but that was never what we kind of wanted to be A and it was interesting. We wouldn't really sure what we wanted it to bay. You know, it just a podcasts and a YouTube channel. And if it became something bigger than great Andi since then, we kind of had them. We have what was called a media partnership in February, which I couldn't tell you even now what that means.  But her gentleman who runs you're quite a kind of innovative health and safety kind of event. Corder could the Congress of Hatred see Congress? He actually doesn't in America and around the world as well on Bond. And then he'd come on Hit, asked to come in a Pocar said, I'm doing this. What do you think you talk about on my year? Come along, How to talk about it? And then he approached me a couple months later, saying, I really love what you're doing on a YouTube channel.  Could you come along and do something like some social media stuff? And I said, Well, what I would like to do on what we'd be thinking about is doing like of Log, Star video of us, go into events like conferences and stuff out. Would you want to seduce a lot? We did it Riddick completely for free. Well, they paid for a ticket for us, but that was it. And we went and did it. I know my people that have come and said, like, That's amazing. You should do.  You should be like a common safety business. And I'm like, What even is that so in actually a question. We don't really know what what is going to grow into. We just kind of enjoy and seeing it grow like when you were talking about the metrics earlier as well. Like for me? Every day when we get one new subscribe or I Look, I have a double check A. We've got 10 new subscribers or you gotta never a couple of listeners on your A couple more downloads and you did on the last one.  I just can't believe it that there's another person actually wants to listen to me on a regular basis. It blows my mind. Um, so I think at the moment, yes, we'd like it to become something I'd love to own my own business. I'd love Teoh. It's gotta be something about how we communicate Safety like that's a point of rebranding. Safety is that a lot of the safety professionals that I refer to is the kind of old school boys you know with clipboards that need to be rebranded.  It's not that they're bad at their job. It's just how we communicate. Its safety over the years has been the problem. So we've created a perception. So for me, if we could grow something that helps us change the perception of safety which ultimately hopefully will stop its killing 140 people on average a year, then Great. What is that physically look like? I really don't have the answer to that question. So let me ask another question. This came to mind when you started going down the path with your starting to do safety.  Whose work were you looking at? Like when you decided to go down? Not with rebranding. Thank you for saying. But when you started your career What? I know that she started to get into safety based on how your career worked out. Well, what did you decided to look into anybody else's worker? Did you just go based on what the company was showing you at the time? Sure. So originally it was based on what the company was showing me at the time to My first job was heavily dictated by our kind of isil accreditations that we have.  So I lived on in British standards and things like that. And that's where I did most of my work from our internal, some standards. And as I kind of progressively rollers, I started looking at what a lot of what boy Andrew Sherman, um on dangers of Hackett probably dominated a lot of my time early on. And then with interest, we had Andrew Sharman. Come on the podcast, Andi, I would I would say that it probably wasn't my favorite podcast. It felt a bit too rigid for May and on game.  From there, I already started looking into people like Sydney and Todd, and all the other podcasts are out there. And Erica's well, we'll start to see all this other stuff and then approached Ron Gant for America and got him to come on up our Carson and then re literally within the space of maybe like the year we started the podcast. My eyes just it will probably be just before that. Books. Yeah, my eyes just opened to everyone else in the world, but full on in the beginning, it was what was in front of me, which was hatred.  See guidance, Which, to be honest, I still vouch for most of our UK hedges. See guidance. I think it's very reasonable, and I quite like the way that Dame Judith Hack it looks a lot of what she does. I do genuinely think that there was never anything wrong with the law in the first place. So a lot of the work that I did in the beginning was very much based around the guidance in front of US British standards and stuff like that. Which bridge status could get bit heavy at times and then undo Sharman's probably the first person that kind of opened my eyes a little bit.  And then, from there my eyes were opened to the rest of the artist close. So when you buy a book and then at the back of the book, you got that list of If you like this book, you might like all these other books. And that's your energy life from their own words because driver reading books Very true, Very true. So now if our listeners want to know more about you working, they find more information. I have a good idea where they're gonna go. But where would they find more information?  Sure, So three easiest thing is to is to Google rebranded safety Pocar so are obvious to platforms. Ah, YouTube. And then pretty much any platform that doesn't podcast were on, so you can go on Spotify. You can go on Nigeria's Google podcast on your record now over there with the kind of the weird ones hiding in the background. We use anchor to put a podcast out. So our profile is is our anchor page. You can go on there and that can link you up to the obvious.  But to be honest, the easiest easy way is to just Google rebounded, taking podcast or go on YouTube. Just put rebounded safety and everything you need is there and the every just ways to come on, Linc. Genital search for me, James McPherson. And I'm happy to chapter Absolutely anyone. Well, James, I really do appreciate you coming on to the show today. I really do appreciate the time, and I really did enjoy the conversation. No, it's good. Thank you for having me on. It was nice being being interviewed for once instead of being the interviewer.  This brings another episode of the jail in show to an end. To find out what we have going on its safety FM, don't hesitate to come to our website safety of m dot com or you can also come to safety FM dot tv. Sometimes people get confused on what we have going on. Don't worry. We are a radio station that has some of the best safety content in the world available. We'll be back with another episode of The Jalen Show before too long. Goodbye for now. Once more, J. Allen home the views and opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the host and its guest, and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company.  Examples of analysis discussed within this podcast are only examples. It's not be utilized in the real world at the only solution available as they're based only on very limited in dated open source information assumptions made within this analysis or not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, Elektronik, recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast. Thank you for listening to Safety FM. We are here to help you in this time of need.  Make sure to join us on Patri on Ford slash safety of em