Promoting self-management in work with Perry Timms
January 25, 2021
In your current work or even at home, how are you leading?
Do you lead from the lenses of letting the learner taking the lead role OR do you come from the manager that sometimes can tell people what to do?
I think we all struggle with this balance but in this episode, Perry Timms, speaks about why he is actively promoting self-management in work.
In your current work or even at home, how are you leading?
Do you lead from the lenses of letting the learner taking the lead role OR do you come from the manager that sometimes can tell people what to do?
I think we all struggle with this balance but in this episode, Perry Timms, speaks about why he is actively promoting self-management in work.
About the Guest:
Perry is an HR professional by accreditation and runs a small, but daring enterprise called PTHR - where the mission is Better Business for a Better World. They are 9 people across 5 time zones and stand for the next stage in business evolution in order to design organizations where people flourish. Their hallmarks are helping people learn more Agile ways to develop 21st-century work 'operating systems' and bring more dispersed leadership that builds more inclusive and creative collaborative environments.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is This show is brought to you by Safety FM. Welcome to unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for If you are a person that is tired of apologizing for being you, you know the human part of you that sometimes feels like it has to be different at home versus work versus play. The human side that just wants to be hot, humble, open and transparent about your wants, desires and uniqueness. If you answered yes, this is for you. Join me, Emily Elrod as I dive into conversations with Amazing Guest. About what? That you're not sorry for and creative and loving ways Let's get started. Welcome everybody to another episode of unapologetically bold I'm not sorry for. And I am so blessed today to have ah, friend with May that I now call a friend Perry. Welcome.
[00:01:03] spk_1: Thank you. It's great to be here.
[00:01:06] spk_0: It's such a blessing to have you. And if you cannot tell people he's got an accent. So he is across from across the pond when So you are. If you want to tell people actually, just a little bit about yourself and yeah,
[00:01:21] spk_1: exactly. I will. So I was born in a fairly small town in England called Northampton. Very famous for making shoes on DSO. My mother and father met when they worked in issue factory Andi. I support the local soccer team Northampton Town, who are called the cobbler's, So there's a real shoot connection. I joined the civil service when I left school and work for the government in the legal system and got involved in technology projects on learning and then found my way into the not for profit area. For a while, I've been leading an independent business since 2000 and 12 that has a motto on economy mission, Better business for a better world. And so that's the kind of thing I'm into.
[00:02:07] spk_0: And I love it, and I can't wait for people to get to hear you speak about that as well, because I think that really plays into what you're not sorry for. So I just left a go ahead and hop on into it. So mine tell the world Well, you're not apologizing for anymore.
[00:02:27] spk_1: I'm not sorry for promoting self management in work.
[00:02:32] spk_0: I love that so to dive more into that, and I think also to put a back story on it. You are really in the people side of the business. Absolutely. We nerd out a lot about self self management. Self discovery, self efficacy, like we can hurt out a lot of on a lot of stuff. So let's just start in about self management, tell us a little bit. How did you get to this?
[00:02:57] spk_1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I guess when a lot of us into the workplace, we are used to having a kind of hierarchical set up, right? So we we are allocated to a team leader. We are guided by a manager. We are given performance agreements. And we have, I guess, conversations called appraisals. And they assess your performance and so on. And, you know, we kind of don't know any different. We think this is the way that things go on. Then after a while, you come across some managers and team leaders, and you kind of think, What value do they add to what I'm doing? They kind of just supervise me on. They kind of tell me off if there's something not quite right on, then you kind of think, But what family do they added? So you don't question it. And then I had one of those kind of ah ha moments when a London business school professor of actually is from your side of the pond. Gary Hamel. Was it a conference talking about the future of management? And he introduced the concept To me, that just made me go. Wow, he said. Management is 1/20 century technology that has outgrown it's usefulness in the 21st century world of work. This was 2007, and I was like, This is This is something that's just encapsulated a what I've been thinking about interference, about friction, about disappointment, about over management and all this kind of lacking confidence thing that I felt sometimes in the workplace. So I started to dig deeper on. I found this Brazilian entrepreneur who took over his father's engineering business called Ricardo Semler, and he decided to remove management from his entire enterprise and allow teams to self organize and have budgets and decision making on this company thrived and I read the book Maverick, and I was like, Wow, this is it. Like the world does not need as many managers we seem to have created. I was careful, though, because I didn't want to kind of demonized the whole concept of management because I've had some terrific managers who looked after me who have nourished May who have helped me learn. But I'm thinking, But for each one of those, I probably had two, maybe three, who just made things difficult for me who got in the way on DSO. This self management style of liberated, self directed autonomous ways of working seemed to be attached to organizations where people flourished and had a strong sense of fulfillment in their work. And that's why I'm not sorry for it, Emily, because we want people to flourish in their work. We want people to be satisfied and feel value and worth in what they do on. Unfortunately, sometimes managers just stop that from happening.
[00:05:31] spk_0: I love that, and I think the part that really gets me is you say self management. I call it self determination, but it's still a part of the same same area, because for me, I use DeSean Ryan's work a lot, and it is. Bay is the self determination theory, and it is competency, autonomy, relatedness, so giving them the knowledge giving them economy, giving them the freedom of choice and making it relatable for him. And also everybody has different levels. So as Americans, I found we really like autonomy because we want to have our choices. That's what our whole governmental basis is off of. So where it may not be as equal to another region, but still, we all have the ability to determine what's best for ourselves. And I think that's important in this. Is that self management piece? So people that are asking what is self management? How would you do private?
[00:06:33] spk_1: Yeah, so it is a simple, I guess, as the removal of an unnecessary layer of supervision. Okay, so I think what we have to accept is that there are circumstances. Sometimes when people are quite new to a role, they perhaps don't have the confidence and competence that a more senior figure who can help them with knowledge, who could build their confidence, who can create connections and bring them into a state of comfort with the work they're doing is very helpful on DSO. I would I would call that more coaching, right? I think we've seen the rise of coaching in management for a good reason because I think we've wanted to be guided rather than supervised on DSO. That's almost like a first step towards it, if you can. If you can create managers who guide and inspire more than they kind of control and Onda almost kind of a press, then I think we're into a good place. That's almost like the first rung of the ladder on self management. The next layer really is where managers are just like you do not need me and I'll go do something specialist somewhere else because you have quality in what you do. You have the ability to make decisions. You have trust in your colleagues on the people who you're there to work and serve on DSO. I'm just gonna let you do it on. Do you know when things get tough and you might need a bit of help, then call in a more experienced colleagues? Or perhaps me? But largely speaking, I believe you have exactly what you need to get this work done, so I think I've seen it developed a lot in areas where people have a high degree off. I would say kind of professional discipline, right so I think we've seen it creep into the military. Stanley McChrystal's famous book team of teams was talking about auto autonomous units, small, tightly knit groups who did not need oppressive strategic general kind of direction On day we've seen it in areas like the military medical profession where people are just like I'm in this. I know what I'm doing. I do not need a bureaucrat to tell me to fill in a form in orderto make a decision on what's good for patient welfare. But I said, I think we've seen it exploding technology, and I think that's where I guess most people might associate. Self management is in the stories of Spotify and some of the Google 20% time where people will say you have what you need on you should get on with being creative, inventive and determined on your own kind of direction, not some supervisory performance indicator. Statistically, lead challenge. You have the ability to solve your problems and to create great things in your work on Duh you know. And I think it's that self determination that you talk about that I think has seen technology companies thrive through innovation because management hasn't had toe approve things. It's allowing people to create things, test them, learn, manage risk on developed. So I see is an incredibly mature, mature of circumstances where trust is hugely important. And you probably know the work of Amy Edmondson from Harvard to school on Michael Lee from INSEE. Odd. And they talk a lot about the sort of disassembly of hierarchy and the need to see more people who have agency and choices you, you say. So I think it's those. It's the factors off. I can choose how I do things, knowing that I'm confident enough to make those decisions on. I don't get given prescriptive script run through. You know, I've got the latitude to innovate. I can create connections on Dykan Drive. You know, my part of the business forward on my own steam, working as part of the team and collaborating on a very inclusive on joined man
[00:10:21] spk_0: E. And I think that's so important to note to in the work that we do with their frustration eliminations nine times out of 10, it's something bureaucratic that really like. And the thing is, is that stress? There's actually good signs of stress but most of the stress comes that we see is is from a negative response, and in that aspect it is because it is that control and command and micromanaging aspect. But I do think that it has been generationally talked until now. And I think the one thing that has kind of twisted and changed it out is the technology aspect of it. Because I was talking thio a mental skills catch the other day and for a baseball team or professional baseball team. We were We were just noting out about different things, but one was about the quickness that they have toe to adapt and change. And that's also what I see in like the manufacturing field, because everything is needed yesterday in the work that we do. Or but the difference is in our health care field if we it's kind of a slower, more adoption aspect of it because this is my theory. If something goes wrong, someone may die. So it's like how people can add risk adverse situations with that ability to be able to be creative and innovative and not over bureaucrat, something so that people can have that choice, which is it's not. It's easier said than done, but there are ways that we could do it. So I like to dive into that just to give more wine. It is possible because we were like It's not possible. It can't be dawn. But it's coming like I don't think it's something that people can avoid because if you special now, if you're not adapting, you're dying.
[00:12:19] spk_1: Yeah, completely. You're right. There are a number of different factors behind the Y, and you've hit on a couple of really key ones. The first one is Speed to respond on dso the Mawr bureaucratic and layered. You are as an organization with, you know, supervisor and manager and head of division and VP and then the mortgage eights. You have to go to to make a decision, right? And so there is something about the world does not recognize that the world will have pressure on you to make a decision that by the time you've gone through that chain and it's being adapted, you know, adjusted and then put back down. The issue has changed anyway. So I think you're absolutely right about the pace of the world on some of that has the technology connecting it. That is driven a lot of this. So in days when we could fill in a letter, put it in an envelope posted through the mail, it gets, you know, that was totally different pace of life. Now, the instant somebody sends a message through a social network or email, we expect an instant response to that, even if that is a challenging, unorthodox thing that's being asked, Right? So So we have bean in a position where we have attention between the risk on the hierarchical power on the need to serve a customer, to keep them on, bake them, you know, love us as a company and so on. So I think we've seen that pressure on that driver create the sense that people think I'm going to do something mischievous here. I'm gonna make a decision even though I know I could get into trouble for it, right on DNA, knowing that the outcome is the right outcome. And so they're kind of kept quiet and gone. I just hope I don't get found out right. I do onda often the customer is delighted on. Do you know may write a letter of congratulations on the boss gets the letter and goes, You did this without telling me. He's
[00:14:07] spk_0: like, Yeah, it was the right
[00:14:08] spk_1: outcome. Yeah, but you should tell me. It's like But if I told you, we
[00:14:12] spk_0: wouldn't get
[00:14:13] spk_1: there on its this ridiculous process versus outcome that I think the modern world in the way that you've described it has said we cannot keep doing this. It is unfathomable in 21st century Pacey creative businesses. So where self management has taken hold is in a lot of areas where there is creativity, pressure demands and so on. Andi, I guess it's also taken shape because of the nature of us becoming Maura wear off, I guess the psychology of decisions. And, you know, I guess we've got people who used to be very happy to be told what to do, who are now unhappy and feel pressured that they're not exercising their full mental capacity. Right? How on I think we know we're wasted. So I think we reject that were like, I don't feel the worth if I'm constantly programmed by another human being on. I want Thio, explore and be creative and challenge you know sort of orthodoxies on. I think that's where we get a lot of satisfaction because we feel like we're learning. We're stretching, We're adapting. Were growing. I think that desires pretty strong on that. Came out of Dan Pinks work in 2000 and eight. Drive right, mastery, autonomy and purpose. Those three things really frame what self management's about. I want to get good at it. I wanna have my own agency over this, and I know it's connected to the greater good. So I think we desire that more now. So I think it's a combination of realizing the processes of sclerotic and dangerous and unhelpful on our own desires to just be mawr sort of in control and able to make choices. There was one myth I think I've seen in the world of work for a long time. It's where people said people don't leave bad organizations, they leave bad managers on. I kind of think Well, yeah, I can understand that, but I think people leave organizations because they can't influence the changes around them to make it something they would love right on. That's not always the manager's fault. Sometimes the system and the bureaucracy and the process that you talk about. So the why I think is much more compelling now, a Zwelithini information we're now hearing from successful companies who have done this. Andi. In fact, a lot of them are in the U. S. So there are lots of examples of companies that operate in a very freedom centered approach on day are testament to how successful and sustainable this could be.
[00:16:38] spk_0: I agree. And two things on my mind while you're speaking about this one is I remember specifically telling my director that I reported Thio that trust me, Do you not believe in me? And it was. And the thing is, is I am a well being expert, like that's what Well, being human performance organization performance. That's what I know. And I know I know, I know it. If that makes sense to, I think, but for him, he new policies and procedures. And so I knew that my wheelhouse was not his wheelhouse. I knew our strengths and weaknesses. But one time I remember making a decision, and I told him I said, you're gonna kill me. But I decided this. And here's why. And you told me that you trusted me so and I could just tell. Like the twisting and turning in his stomach. Basic. Okay, Emily. Okay. And in the end, it turned out great, you know, and one of them, it was like, I remember one time we ended up like, saving millions of dollars, and he's like, Yeah, I did that like, say, what was like your heart attack after I told you about this like, But there's things that can happen. And if you let your people who know their strengths go with it But on the reverse, your people do not know their strengths yet and are still being built up. You may want to tell them what to do, because I know I have. Oh, some of my people on my team. I call them diamonds in the rough because they do not know how amazing they are yet. And my my goal is to continually build that confidence in them because nobody's done that before. But instilling in, they do need more management side. And I go more towards the coaching, you know, aspect of it and not telling them what to do. But they want a directive. So think about that about the individual response for the person based on their confidence as well.
[00:18:43] spk_1: Yeah. Again, you've hit on a really important factor. Which again is the maturity and the awareness of the person themselves about who they are, what they're capable of. I mean, that's a terrific point, right? So I would say when I entered the workplace, I needed a lot of supervision. I needed somebody who could help me get things right. Exactly that I also needed people who could say, You know what? I see news. I see you able to do this. And I'm like, Really? I don't see that in myself. It's
[00:19:08] spk_0: like, let's
[00:19:09] spk_1: give it a go on. Then you prove it. And then you're like, Oh, wow, yeah, I can on then you kind of think this person is a genius or something, because they, like, pull the thread in your mind that you didn't know existed. But you do need that almost like that sense, a right that kind of figure who who can help you channel like the things that you have in you on the interests and the energy and the propensity towards certain things so I totally agree that that's where the coach thing is so powerful. Eso I do think there's a nurturing aspect to management, which I think you've absolutely hit on there. But unfortunately, and most of the modern world work, that nurturing aspect is somewhat suppressed because managers have become less the guardians of their people on more the guardians of the process on. So they stick to it in the way you described. Right on then you're as people you kind of go. But you don't really care about me because you're just telling me the processes this Yeah, I know. I can deviate to get an outcome. I know I can innovate to create a saving on. That gets frustrating because they're not managers of people that manages the process and Onda whole spirit. I was once told this by a very senior military guy from the UK who said Leadership is a gift is an honor to say I'm the person who has responsibility for you, and I will set the direction and I will make sure we're safe and we're good and we enjoy the journey to that, he said. That's why that's such a joy that such a gift, and yet most people spoil it by becoming bureaucrats on. Then it was like, Yeah, totally see it. But I love the fact that in a self managed environment, what people have recognized in the studies of things that I've done is they recognize that role is so important. So there is a nursing organization in the Netherlands that has no managers, but it has coaches on those coaches alike drawn on demands by people who say, Look, I new to the team. I need to know how this stuff works because I used to work in the old bureaucratic way I'm or used to spreadsheets than patience on. Then this coach helps them develop their bedside manner, their introduction to a new patient, their work with the community on. Then they see them flourishing, and the coach kind of backs away and says, You're ready now on. There's something so nice in having somebody who can almost endorse you by just bringing out what's in you anyway, rather than somebody who kind of fills your head with stuff and just packages it for you that feels very robotic. This discovery of the things that you are, you know, leaning towards and kind acquirer skills and have a real interest in. That's a real gift. And I think unfortunately, managers have lost that because we've we've given them too much work and we've made them the process guardians on. I think if we can restore some of the human factor in leadership, we will welcome Peep, but with the title manager, because we know that there for us.
[00:21:56] spk_0: And I think that's important to know about giving the humanity back to it because it makes me think of some people that I have worked with that are basically just a bitter and especially if you have a high performer step in and then there quote unquote, then referred to as the rebel because going out of the process, Yeah, but if they analyze and the thing is is I'm a process I have a background in. I was do not have the degree in engineering, but I have a background in engineering and a design and process been doing this since I'm 14. I was 14. So But all that to say is that I love processes I love. That's the reason why I love humanity. because I love how the physiological processes work, but they're simple, and the thing is, is I have yet not find a major savings with people whenever you address the process. But bring the people to it
[00:22:59] spk_1: totally right again. You've made me think about something that's been mulling in my mind quite recently, because a lot of people who are very into the self management world so they are, you know, almost completely detached from any form of bureaucracy or hierarchy who will say right, It is all about the mindset in the spirit on, you know, it's not the system I'm like, Okay, but I think it is the system, because we are always in a system, and that's what you're describing there. So I'm like you. I love a pro human process. That's what I like, because I do see situations where people dismantle management structures and process and say, Okay, everybody, we're just going to go for it in a liberated sense and we can look around and think, Okay, where do I start? What do I do on? There's a discomfort in element to that because sometimes those processes a really good for channel in our effort, attention and energy and efficiency, and if we just get rid of them, we could be duplicated and losing time and all that kind of thing. So I'm like you. I love a process, but a pro human process. So in self management that works really well. What I see is lots of collective agreement on what is a good process for decisions or expedience or priorities. Andi. Actually, people respect that process because it's not imposed. It feels like you volunteer into it. It's almost like an ethical thing rather than just inefficient thing. But you know, it's sufficient to, right? So I'm totally with you on that, Andi. I see it in people of faith to where there are processes that they adopt on their really comforted and they're helpful. Nobody forces that process on somebody they adopted because it's right. Ah, now I see. That's the big difference. Self management helps you make the choices on the things that are right, rather than just the things that are there. I once worked in an organization where there was a process and I kind of wanted to change it. So I said to my boss at the time I said, Can I change this process? And she went, Yeah, but it's not our process. I'm like, Okay, Who's is? It's that it's the team in Tech. Oh, okay. So I go to the team in Tech and I said, That's not our process. Oh, okay, must be legal. So I go to legal and I said, No, it's not our process. This process just existed with nobody owning it on. Therefore, like it's like it's just like a corporate myth. It just hangs there. So because we didn't have an owner, I changed it. I made it better, But it's almost like how many companies are layered with processes that are there and never questioned or taken down. But
[00:25:27] spk_0: we just do them anyway. I think that's so true, because a lot of times to I actually put a post about this today, and it was in reference to my child. We had a fugitive that came onto our property in our area, had did some bad things, but long story short, my daughter made like 47 little like eyeball cameras, and I asked her why. And she's like, uh, the bad guys, you know, But the thing is, is what I had to explain to her. This is a once in a lifetime event, hopefully, like reality. How many people have fugitive have massive fugitive searches in your area? It's not gonna happen much, but how many times do we create processes based on those one time? And what were people doing something that just killed himself management and makes people want to go towards a micro management from so talk about that for a minute?
[00:26:34] spk_1: Yeah, that's a great point again. I think you have hit on a ritual, I guess, that I see in organizations where something happens and instantly the reaction is to kind of engineering process and then engineer another one. Another one another on Before you know it, you are thick layered with these processes, But nobody ever says What should we take one away? Then, if we had one on nobody nobody ever says. Now we've got 66 processes. Is there a way to actually say, Do we still need 66 processes, or can we create 33 because the rest of it will take care of itself? So I think we way it's almost like playing cards with an ever growing deck. It's like I can't even hold a Lac Arts. It is almost like the more processes we have. We have toe memorize the more we're likely to not adopt them. Eso it's almost like, Can we boil them down to some principle? Yeah, okay, cool. Let's get the principles right. All of a sudden, we only have 10 of those on. They keep us. Really, really, really focus where we need thio on. Then, with exceptions, we understand the process that we engineer it for that particular thing, but we don't then enshrine it and create a big library. Um, there's something about the sort of, I suppose compliant side of business that has almost over taken the creative and thoughtful side of humans thinking that we need programming cards for everything. And it's like way genuinely, don't we don't need that a songs. There's a way to work out how Thio be safe and be assured. Then I think that's where your principles come in. And so I see companies who have values, and they have then a whole set of things like guidance notes and leather. There on I kind of think, How does anybody make sense of any of that? Because the values is so strong. But they're so layered with process. People forget what the values are, the values of the really strong things that guide three ethics of decision making and so on. So, yeah, I totally understand in areas where by oil and gas or something where safety is first but what I love about oil and gas, actually, having worked in the HR side with clients there is that you habitual eyes, things like safety ritual so that you memorize them and then the processes are quite few, actually, because you've almost got this ingrained competence that you don't even need to think about. And self management, in my experience, creates that to it creates this mental bank you adopt instantly on. Then when when there's an exception, you might bring in an external process just the handle that you know what, So I love the fact that we don't have to pick the book off the shelf all the time. We just know the story.
[00:29:08] spk_0: This'll makes my heart so happy because the one thing that I talk about is I hate the word safety first, and here's the reason why What you just said. Yeah, if you have a what I call it is it's supposed to call the seller salary test. I call it the Apple Test because I hate salary. But actually, if you think that you go to a grocery store and you have a soda, you haven't apple and you have a bag of chips going down the line. But you instantly think my value is to live a healthy you long life. You instantly know the decision. You don't have to think so. That's why making safety literally safety is a part of your body physiologically process Serotonin. I caught the safety cop of the body because nobody remember serotonin. But if you can listen your gut, where 90% of the time safety cop is at that is a way that you can self manage yourself so that you don't have toe layer. These bureaucratic processes that stopped that growth that stopped the innovation. I remember actually, speaking of safety, there was a group that I was in a conversation with today, and they were talking about how they couldn't even change name titles because they had to go to the board and then they had to go, like three other processes just to change two words. Wow. And I'm like why? But then it made me think of, ah, work that I've done in the past special specifically in health care. I understand. And this is just it makes me feel bad. Is the only way I can compartmentalize it is that change can lead to death and so very risk. Adverse companies are more resistant to change unless over it hits and they're kind of thrown
[00:30:58] spk_1: at. Yeah, for sure. Well, I guess that is a good loop into the whole situation with coronavirus. Really, Isn't it? Because what we've had to do is I think we've had to adopt quite a lot of self managed ways in in the response to it. Right. So, you know, there have been lots of decisions made very quickly. I mean, I know a company who spent a lot of time creating it. Business continuity plan. Now, when they knew the government in the UK was about to announce lock down, did they get that plan out and follow? The process is no. They sat around a table and they said What feels right on What do we trust on what we believe in? And what do we need to do to look after our people on? Do you know what it was the best thing ever because they didn't kind of defer to some, you know, mythical guidance that would make it right. They just felt the way into it. And they, you know, kind of had good conversations and exchanges on. I think again, it's that kind of it. Is that, like a tall instinct, isn't it? Sounds a bit odd, but it is. It's like a grown instinct. You you know how to react in certain situations and you see it in people who have toe handle riel sensitive situations with people, perhaps with mental health issues. People in traumatic circumstances, hostage negotiators, they don't get the rule book and the process is out. They know because they have embodied the whole thing on what I see in self managed companies versus not self managed companies is this embodiment. There's not a detachment from me and the process is like I am the process in the best possible way, so it talks exactly to your point off the acting in the nature off the best outcome without deferral to some kind of process. So absolutely right.
[00:32:40] spk_0: Eso good. And I am so appreciative you. Perry is such an amazing conversation. So I know that we're close to the end of our time so that I do want to ask two final questions First. Part of the final question is people are apologizing for promoting self management and work. What would you say to them?
[00:33:01] spk_1: Well, I think they're gonna listen to what's coming through, not just from co vid responses, right, but just generally, where we talked about the nature of what people want from their work. Okay, I think there is something about we have in Fanta Land fantasized the workplace a bit, so we've got parents and Children. I think it's time to get more adult adult going on, and that requires conversations that requires openness. So I would say, if you are still apologizing for being interested in self management, all you think it's too risky. Then I think open the conversation with your people and say, How much do you want? Agency and choice and variation and influence. I think a whole lot of cool stuff will come out, and I think work with that because I think we don't have to again jump straight into a massive self management revolution. We can evolve into this. We can say, Well, let's see where we can create more learning and opportunities and choice on. Then you just gradually mature the proposition and you just keep talking, right? So So I think that's how we get over apologizing is we? Table it. We start to name it and understand our propensity towards it. We don't force it and we don't dominate it. I think we just let it emerge.
[00:34:11] spk_0: I agree so much and this is the reason why what I tell people all the time. You do not want Yes, people you want people. You don't have to be like minded. But you're like hearted, and that is what I love about you. Perry is the like hardness like you understand humanity and you understand its impact for the next generation. So for the people that are black hearted with us, how can they find your connect with
[00:34:37] spk_1: you? So there's only one of me. So on YouTube and Twitter and linked in Perry Tim's will get you to may. My website for the company is P t H r dot co dot UK. So it stands for people and transformation or h r p t h r dot co dot UK On like I say, Yeah, I'm always open to me. Like like hearted people. I like that phrase only. Thank you. Because I think we kind of do need to join forces a little bit and helping people or stop apologizing for being interested in self management. Andi, let's get them apologizing for keeping the hierarchical controls in place because we are choking and stifling. Ah Holton of human spirit.
[00:35:21] spk_0: Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. And thank you for all will be listening to this. I hope you have an amazing and blessed day. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for if this to shoot anyway, please, like and subscribe and share with your friends as we continue the message of being unapologetically bold, Bobby and hot humans who are humble, open and transparent. See you next time.
Do you lead from the lenses of letting the learner taking the lead role OR do you come from the manager that sometimes can tell people what to do?
I think we all struggle with this balance but in this episode, Perry Timms, speaks about why he is actively promoting self-management in work.
About the Guest:
Perry is an HR professional by accreditation and runs a small, but daring enterprise called PTHR - where the mission is Better Business for a Better World. They are 9 people across 5 time zones and stand for the next stage in business evolution in order to design organizations where people flourish. Their hallmarks are helping people learn more Agile ways to develop 21st-century work 'operating systems' and bring more dispersed leadership that builds more inclusive and creative collaborative environments.
[00:00:02] spk_0: this is This show is brought to you by Safety FM. Welcome to unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for If you are a person that is tired of apologizing for being you, you know the human part of you that sometimes feels like it has to be different at home versus work versus play. The human side that just wants to be hot, humble, open and transparent about your wants, desires and uniqueness. If you answered yes, this is for you. Join me, Emily Elrod as I dive into conversations with Amazing Guest. About what? That you're not sorry for and creative and loving ways Let's get started. Welcome everybody to another episode of unapologetically bold I'm not sorry for. And I am so blessed today to have ah, friend with May that I now call a friend Perry. Welcome.
[00:01:03] spk_1: Thank you. It's great to be here.
[00:01:06] spk_0: It's such a blessing to have you. And if you cannot tell people he's got an accent. So he is across from across the pond when So you are. If you want to tell people actually, just a little bit about yourself and yeah,
[00:01:21] spk_1: exactly. I will. So I was born in a fairly small town in England called Northampton. Very famous for making shoes on DSO. My mother and father met when they worked in issue factory Andi. I support the local soccer team Northampton Town, who are called the cobbler's, So there's a real shoot connection. I joined the civil service when I left school and work for the government in the legal system and got involved in technology projects on learning and then found my way into the not for profit area. For a while, I've been leading an independent business since 2000 and 12 that has a motto on economy mission, Better business for a better world. And so that's the kind of thing I'm into.
[00:02:07] spk_0: And I love it, and I can't wait for people to get to hear you speak about that as well, because I think that really plays into what you're not sorry for. So I just left a go ahead and hop on into it. So mine tell the world Well, you're not apologizing for anymore.
[00:02:27] spk_1: I'm not sorry for promoting self management in work.
[00:02:32] spk_0: I love that so to dive more into that, and I think also to put a back story on it. You are really in the people side of the business. Absolutely. We nerd out a lot about self self management. Self discovery, self efficacy, like we can hurt out a lot of on a lot of stuff. So let's just start in about self management, tell us a little bit. How did you get to this?
[00:02:57] spk_1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I guess when a lot of us into the workplace, we are used to having a kind of hierarchical set up, right? So we we are allocated to a team leader. We are guided by a manager. We are given performance agreements. And we have, I guess, conversations called appraisals. And they assess your performance and so on. And, you know, we kind of don't know any different. We think this is the way that things go on. Then after a while, you come across some managers and team leaders, and you kind of think, What value do they add to what I'm doing? They kind of just supervise me on. They kind of tell me off if there's something not quite right on, then you kind of think, But what family do they added? So you don't question it. And then I had one of those kind of ah ha moments when a London business school professor of actually is from your side of the pond. Gary Hamel. Was it a conference talking about the future of management? And he introduced the concept To me, that just made me go. Wow, he said. Management is 1/20 century technology that has outgrown it's usefulness in the 21st century world of work. This was 2007, and I was like, This is This is something that's just encapsulated a what I've been thinking about interference, about friction, about disappointment, about over management and all this kind of lacking confidence thing that I felt sometimes in the workplace. So I started to dig deeper on. I found this Brazilian entrepreneur who took over his father's engineering business called Ricardo Semler, and he decided to remove management from his entire enterprise and allow teams to self organize and have budgets and decision making on this company thrived and I read the book Maverick, and I was like, Wow, this is it. Like the world does not need as many managers we seem to have created. I was careful, though, because I didn't want to kind of demonized the whole concept of management because I've had some terrific managers who looked after me who have nourished May who have helped me learn. But I'm thinking, But for each one of those, I probably had two, maybe three, who just made things difficult for me who got in the way on DSO. This self management style of liberated, self directed autonomous ways of working seemed to be attached to organizations where people flourished and had a strong sense of fulfillment in their work. And that's why I'm not sorry for it, Emily, because we want people to flourish in their work. We want people to be satisfied and feel value and worth in what they do on. Unfortunately, sometimes managers just stop that from happening.
[00:05:31] spk_0: I love that, and I think the part that really gets me is you say self management. I call it self determination, but it's still a part of the same same area, because for me, I use DeSean Ryan's work a lot, and it is. Bay is the self determination theory, and it is competency, autonomy, relatedness, so giving them the knowledge giving them economy, giving them the freedom of choice and making it relatable for him. And also everybody has different levels. So as Americans, I found we really like autonomy because we want to have our choices. That's what our whole governmental basis is off of. So where it may not be as equal to another region, but still, we all have the ability to determine what's best for ourselves. And I think that's important in this. Is that self management piece? So people that are asking what is self management? How would you do private?
[00:06:33] spk_1: Yeah, so it is a simple, I guess, as the removal of an unnecessary layer of supervision. Okay, so I think what we have to accept is that there are circumstances. Sometimes when people are quite new to a role, they perhaps don't have the confidence and competence that a more senior figure who can help them with knowledge, who could build their confidence, who can create connections and bring them into a state of comfort with the work they're doing is very helpful on DSO. I would I would call that more coaching, right? I think we've seen the rise of coaching in management for a good reason because I think we've wanted to be guided rather than supervised on DSO. That's almost like a first step towards it, if you can. If you can create managers who guide and inspire more than they kind of control and Onda almost kind of a press, then I think we're into a good place. That's almost like the first rung of the ladder on self management. The next layer really is where managers are just like you do not need me and I'll go do something specialist somewhere else because you have quality in what you do. You have the ability to make decisions. You have trust in your colleagues on the people who you're there to work and serve on DSO. I'm just gonna let you do it on. Do you know when things get tough and you might need a bit of help, then call in a more experienced colleagues? Or perhaps me? But largely speaking, I believe you have exactly what you need to get this work done, so I think I've seen it developed a lot in areas where people have a high degree off. I would say kind of professional discipline, right so I think we've seen it creep into the military. Stanley McChrystal's famous book team of teams was talking about auto autonomous units, small, tightly knit groups who did not need oppressive strategic general kind of direction On day we've seen it in areas like the military medical profession where people are just like I'm in this. I know what I'm doing. I do not need a bureaucrat to tell me to fill in a form in orderto make a decision on what's good for patient welfare. But I said, I think we've seen it exploding technology, and I think that's where I guess most people might associate. Self management is in the stories of Spotify and some of the Google 20% time where people will say you have what you need on you should get on with being creative, inventive and determined on your own kind of direction, not some supervisory performance indicator. Statistically, lead challenge. You have the ability to solve your problems and to create great things in your work on Duh you know. And I think it's that self determination that you talk about that I think has seen technology companies thrive through innovation because management hasn't had toe approve things. It's allowing people to create things, test them, learn, manage risk on developed. So I see is an incredibly mature, mature of circumstances where trust is hugely important. And you probably know the work of Amy Edmondson from Harvard to school on Michael Lee from INSEE. Odd. And they talk a lot about the sort of disassembly of hierarchy and the need to see more people who have agency and choices you, you say. So I think it's those. It's the factors off. I can choose how I do things, knowing that I'm confident enough to make those decisions on. I don't get given prescriptive script run through. You know, I've got the latitude to innovate. I can create connections on Dykan Drive. You know, my part of the business forward on my own steam, working as part of the team and collaborating on a very inclusive on joined man
[00:10:21] spk_0: E. And I think that's so important to note to in the work that we do with their frustration eliminations nine times out of 10, it's something bureaucratic that really like. And the thing is, is that stress? There's actually good signs of stress but most of the stress comes that we see is is from a negative response, and in that aspect it is because it is that control and command and micromanaging aspect. But I do think that it has been generationally talked until now. And I think the one thing that has kind of twisted and changed it out is the technology aspect of it. Because I was talking thio a mental skills catch the other day and for a baseball team or professional baseball team. We were We were just noting out about different things, but one was about the quickness that they have toe to adapt and change. And that's also what I see in like the manufacturing field, because everything is needed yesterday in the work that we do. Or but the difference is in our health care field if we it's kind of a slower, more adoption aspect of it because this is my theory. If something goes wrong, someone may die. So it's like how people can add risk adverse situations with that ability to be able to be creative and innovative and not over bureaucrat, something so that people can have that choice, which is it's not. It's easier said than done, but there are ways that we could do it. So I like to dive into that just to give more wine. It is possible because we were like It's not possible. It can't be dawn. But it's coming like I don't think it's something that people can avoid because if you special now, if you're not adapting, you're dying.
[00:12:19] spk_1: Yeah, completely. You're right. There are a number of different factors behind the Y, and you've hit on a couple of really key ones. The first one is Speed to respond on dso the Mawr bureaucratic and layered. You are as an organization with, you know, supervisor and manager and head of division and VP and then the mortgage eights. You have to go to to make a decision, right? And so there is something about the world does not recognize that the world will have pressure on you to make a decision that by the time you've gone through that chain and it's being adapted, you know, adjusted and then put back down. The issue has changed anyway. So I think you're absolutely right about the pace of the world on some of that has the technology connecting it. That is driven a lot of this. So in days when we could fill in a letter, put it in an envelope posted through the mail, it gets, you know, that was totally different pace of life. Now, the instant somebody sends a message through a social network or email, we expect an instant response to that, even if that is a challenging, unorthodox thing that's being asked, Right? So So we have bean in a position where we have attention between the risk on the hierarchical power on the need to serve a customer, to keep them on, bake them, you know, love us as a company and so on. So I think we've seen that pressure on that driver create the sense that people think I'm going to do something mischievous here. I'm gonna make a decision even though I know I could get into trouble for it, right on DNA, knowing that the outcome is the right outcome. And so they're kind of kept quiet and gone. I just hope I don't get found out right. I do onda often the customer is delighted on. Do you know may write a letter of congratulations on the boss gets the letter and goes, You did this without telling me. He's
[00:14:07] spk_0: like, Yeah, it was the right
[00:14:08] spk_1: outcome. Yeah, but you should tell me. It's like But if I told you, we
[00:14:12] spk_0: wouldn't get
[00:14:13] spk_1: there on its this ridiculous process versus outcome that I think the modern world in the way that you've described it has said we cannot keep doing this. It is unfathomable in 21st century Pacey creative businesses. So where self management has taken hold is in a lot of areas where there is creativity, pressure demands and so on. Andi, I guess it's also taken shape because of the nature of us becoming Maura wear off, I guess the psychology of decisions. And, you know, I guess we've got people who used to be very happy to be told what to do, who are now unhappy and feel pressured that they're not exercising their full mental capacity. Right? How on I think we know we're wasted. So I think we reject that were like, I don't feel the worth if I'm constantly programmed by another human being on. I want Thio, explore and be creative and challenge you know sort of orthodoxies on. I think that's where we get a lot of satisfaction because we feel like we're learning. We're stretching, We're adapting. Were growing. I think that desires pretty strong on that. Came out of Dan Pinks work in 2000 and eight. Drive right, mastery, autonomy and purpose. Those three things really frame what self management's about. I want to get good at it. I wanna have my own agency over this, and I know it's connected to the greater good. So I think we desire that more now. So I think it's a combination of realizing the processes of sclerotic and dangerous and unhelpful on our own desires to just be mawr sort of in control and able to make choices. There was one myth I think I've seen in the world of work for a long time. It's where people said people don't leave bad organizations, they leave bad managers on. I kind of think Well, yeah, I can understand that, but I think people leave organizations because they can't influence the changes around them to make it something they would love right on. That's not always the manager's fault. Sometimes the system and the bureaucracy and the process that you talk about. So the why I think is much more compelling now, a Zwelithini information we're now hearing from successful companies who have done this. Andi. In fact, a lot of them are in the U. S. So there are lots of examples of companies that operate in a very freedom centered approach on day are testament to how successful and sustainable this could be.
[00:16:38] spk_0: I agree. And two things on my mind while you're speaking about this one is I remember specifically telling my director that I reported Thio that trust me, Do you not believe in me? And it was. And the thing is, is I am a well being expert, like that's what Well, being human performance organization performance. That's what I know. And I know I know, I know it. If that makes sense to, I think, but for him, he new policies and procedures. And so I knew that my wheelhouse was not his wheelhouse. I knew our strengths and weaknesses. But one time I remember making a decision, and I told him I said, you're gonna kill me. But I decided this. And here's why. And you told me that you trusted me so and I could just tell. Like the twisting and turning in his stomach. Basic. Okay, Emily. Okay. And in the end, it turned out great, you know, and one of them, it was like, I remember one time we ended up like, saving millions of dollars, and he's like, Yeah, I did that like, say, what was like your heart attack after I told you about this like, But there's things that can happen. And if you let your people who know their strengths go with it But on the reverse, your people do not know their strengths yet and are still being built up. You may want to tell them what to do, because I know I have. Oh, some of my people on my team. I call them diamonds in the rough because they do not know how amazing they are yet. And my my goal is to continually build that confidence in them because nobody's done that before. But instilling in, they do need more management side. And I go more towards the coaching, you know, aspect of it and not telling them what to do. But they want a directive. So think about that about the individual response for the person based on their confidence as well.
[00:18:43] spk_1: Yeah. Again, you've hit on a really important factor. Which again is the maturity and the awareness of the person themselves about who they are, what they're capable of. I mean, that's a terrific point, right? So I would say when I entered the workplace, I needed a lot of supervision. I needed somebody who could help me get things right. Exactly that I also needed people who could say, You know what? I see news. I see you able to do this. And I'm like, Really? I don't see that in myself. It's
[00:19:08] spk_0: like, let's
[00:19:09] spk_1: give it a go on. Then you prove it. And then you're like, Oh, wow, yeah, I can on then you kind of think this person is a genius or something, because they, like, pull the thread in your mind that you didn't know existed. But you do need that almost like that sense, a right that kind of figure who who can help you channel like the things that you have in you on the interests and the energy and the propensity towards certain things so I totally agree that that's where the coach thing is so powerful. Eso I do think there's a nurturing aspect to management, which I think you've absolutely hit on there. But unfortunately, and most of the modern world work, that nurturing aspect is somewhat suppressed because managers have become less the guardians of their people on more the guardians of the process on. So they stick to it in the way you described. Right on then you're as people you kind of go. But you don't really care about me because you're just telling me the processes this Yeah, I know. I can deviate to get an outcome. I know I can innovate to create a saving on. That gets frustrating because they're not managers of people that manages the process and Onda whole spirit. I was once told this by a very senior military guy from the UK who said Leadership is a gift is an honor to say I'm the person who has responsibility for you, and I will set the direction and I will make sure we're safe and we're good and we enjoy the journey to that, he said. That's why that's such a joy that such a gift, and yet most people spoil it by becoming bureaucrats on. Then it was like, Yeah, totally see it. But I love the fact that in a self managed environment, what people have recognized in the studies of things that I've done is they recognize that role is so important. So there is a nursing organization in the Netherlands that has no managers, but it has coaches on those coaches alike drawn on demands by people who say, Look, I new to the team. I need to know how this stuff works because I used to work in the old bureaucratic way I'm or used to spreadsheets than patience on. Then this coach helps them develop their bedside manner, their introduction to a new patient, their work with the community on. Then they see them flourishing, and the coach kind of backs away and says, You're ready now on. There's something so nice in having somebody who can almost endorse you by just bringing out what's in you anyway, rather than somebody who kind of fills your head with stuff and just packages it for you that feels very robotic. This discovery of the things that you are, you know, leaning towards and kind acquirer skills and have a real interest in. That's a real gift. And I think unfortunately, managers have lost that because we've we've given them too much work and we've made them the process guardians on. I think if we can restore some of the human factor in leadership, we will welcome Peep, but with the title manager, because we know that there for us.
[00:21:56] spk_0: And I think that's important to know about giving the humanity back to it because it makes me think of some people that I have worked with that are basically just a bitter and especially if you have a high performer step in and then there quote unquote, then referred to as the rebel because going out of the process, Yeah, but if they analyze and the thing is is I'm a process I have a background in. I was do not have the degree in engineering, but I have a background in engineering and a design and process been doing this since I'm 14. I was 14. So But all that to say is that I love processes I love. That's the reason why I love humanity. because I love how the physiological processes work, but they're simple, and the thing is, is I have yet not find a major savings with people whenever you address the process. But bring the people to it
[00:22:59] spk_1: totally right again. You've made me think about something that's been mulling in my mind quite recently, because a lot of people who are very into the self management world so they are, you know, almost completely detached from any form of bureaucracy or hierarchy who will say right, It is all about the mindset in the spirit on, you know, it's not the system I'm like, Okay, but I think it is the system, because we are always in a system, and that's what you're describing there. So I'm like you. I love a pro human process. That's what I like, because I do see situations where people dismantle management structures and process and say, Okay, everybody, we're just going to go for it in a liberated sense and we can look around and think, Okay, where do I start? What do I do on? There's a discomfort in element to that because sometimes those processes a really good for channel in our effort, attention and energy and efficiency, and if we just get rid of them, we could be duplicated and losing time and all that kind of thing. So I'm like you. I love a process, but a pro human process. So in self management that works really well. What I see is lots of collective agreement on what is a good process for decisions or expedience or priorities. Andi. Actually, people respect that process because it's not imposed. It feels like you volunteer into it. It's almost like an ethical thing rather than just inefficient thing. But you know, it's sufficient to, right? So I'm totally with you on that, Andi. I see it in people of faith to where there are processes that they adopt on their really comforted and they're helpful. Nobody forces that process on somebody they adopted because it's right. Ah, now I see. That's the big difference. Self management helps you make the choices on the things that are right, rather than just the things that are there. I once worked in an organization where there was a process and I kind of wanted to change it. So I said to my boss at the time I said, Can I change this process? And she went, Yeah, but it's not our process. I'm like, Okay, Who's is? It's that it's the team in Tech. Oh, okay. So I go to the team in Tech and I said, That's not our process. Oh, okay, must be legal. So I go to legal and I said, No, it's not our process. This process just existed with nobody owning it on. Therefore, like it's like it's just like a corporate myth. It just hangs there. So because we didn't have an owner, I changed it. I made it better, But it's almost like how many companies are layered with processes that are there and never questioned or taken down. But
[00:25:27] spk_0: we just do them anyway. I think that's so true, because a lot of times to I actually put a post about this today, and it was in reference to my child. We had a fugitive that came onto our property in our area, had did some bad things, but long story short, my daughter made like 47 little like eyeball cameras, and I asked her why. And she's like, uh, the bad guys, you know, But the thing is, is what I had to explain to her. This is a once in a lifetime event, hopefully, like reality. How many people have fugitive have massive fugitive searches in your area? It's not gonna happen much, but how many times do we create processes based on those one time? And what were people doing something that just killed himself management and makes people want to go towards a micro management from so talk about that for a minute?
[00:26:34] spk_1: Yeah, that's a great point again. I think you have hit on a ritual, I guess, that I see in organizations where something happens and instantly the reaction is to kind of engineering process and then engineer another one. Another one another on Before you know it, you are thick layered with these processes, But nobody ever says What should we take one away? Then, if we had one on nobody nobody ever says. Now we've got 66 processes. Is there a way to actually say, Do we still need 66 processes, or can we create 33 because the rest of it will take care of itself? So I think we way it's almost like playing cards with an ever growing deck. It's like I can't even hold a Lac Arts. It is almost like the more processes we have. We have toe memorize the more we're likely to not adopt them. Eso it's almost like, Can we boil them down to some principle? Yeah, okay, cool. Let's get the principles right. All of a sudden, we only have 10 of those on. They keep us. Really, really, really focus where we need thio on. Then, with exceptions, we understand the process that we engineer it for that particular thing, but we don't then enshrine it and create a big library. Um, there's something about the sort of, I suppose compliant side of business that has almost over taken the creative and thoughtful side of humans thinking that we need programming cards for everything. And it's like way genuinely, don't we don't need that a songs. There's a way to work out how Thio be safe and be assured. Then I think that's where your principles come in. And so I see companies who have values, and they have then a whole set of things like guidance notes and leather. There on I kind of think, How does anybody make sense of any of that? Because the values is so strong. But they're so layered with process. People forget what the values are, the values of the really strong things that guide three ethics of decision making and so on. So, yeah, I totally understand in areas where by oil and gas or something where safety is first but what I love about oil and gas, actually, having worked in the HR side with clients there is that you habitual eyes, things like safety ritual so that you memorize them and then the processes are quite few, actually, because you've almost got this ingrained competence that you don't even need to think about. And self management, in my experience, creates that to it creates this mental bank you adopt instantly on. Then when when there's an exception, you might bring in an external process just the handle that you know what, So I love the fact that we don't have to pick the book off the shelf all the time. We just know the story.
[00:29:08] spk_0: This'll makes my heart so happy because the one thing that I talk about is I hate the word safety first, and here's the reason why What you just said. Yeah, if you have a what I call it is it's supposed to call the seller salary test. I call it the Apple Test because I hate salary. But actually, if you think that you go to a grocery store and you have a soda, you haven't apple and you have a bag of chips going down the line. But you instantly think my value is to live a healthy you long life. You instantly know the decision. You don't have to think so. That's why making safety literally safety is a part of your body physiologically process Serotonin. I caught the safety cop of the body because nobody remember serotonin. But if you can listen your gut, where 90% of the time safety cop is at that is a way that you can self manage yourself so that you don't have toe layer. These bureaucratic processes that stopped that growth that stopped the innovation. I remember actually, speaking of safety, there was a group that I was in a conversation with today, and they were talking about how they couldn't even change name titles because they had to go to the board and then they had to go, like three other processes just to change two words. Wow. And I'm like why? But then it made me think of, ah, work that I've done in the past special specifically in health care. I understand. And this is just it makes me feel bad. Is the only way I can compartmentalize it is that change can lead to death and so very risk. Adverse companies are more resistant to change unless over it hits and they're kind of thrown
[00:30:58] spk_1: at. Yeah, for sure. Well, I guess that is a good loop into the whole situation with coronavirus. Really, Isn't it? Because what we've had to do is I think we've had to adopt quite a lot of self managed ways in in the response to it. Right. So, you know, there have been lots of decisions made very quickly. I mean, I know a company who spent a lot of time creating it. Business continuity plan. Now, when they knew the government in the UK was about to announce lock down, did they get that plan out and follow? The process is no. They sat around a table and they said What feels right on What do we trust on what we believe in? And what do we need to do to look after our people on? Do you know what it was the best thing ever because they didn't kind of defer to some, you know, mythical guidance that would make it right. They just felt the way into it. And they, you know, kind of had good conversations and exchanges on. I think again, it's that kind of it. Is that, like a tall instinct, isn't it? Sounds a bit odd, but it is. It's like a grown instinct. You you know how to react in certain situations and you see it in people who have toe handle riel sensitive situations with people, perhaps with mental health issues. People in traumatic circumstances, hostage negotiators, they don't get the rule book and the process is out. They know because they have embodied the whole thing on what I see in self managed companies versus not self managed companies is this embodiment. There's not a detachment from me and the process is like I am the process in the best possible way, so it talks exactly to your point off the acting in the nature off the best outcome without deferral to some kind of process. So absolutely right.
[00:32:40] spk_0: Eso good. And I am so appreciative you. Perry is such an amazing conversation. So I know that we're close to the end of our time so that I do want to ask two final questions First. Part of the final question is people are apologizing for promoting self management and work. What would you say to them?
[00:33:01] spk_1: Well, I think they're gonna listen to what's coming through, not just from co vid responses, right, but just generally, where we talked about the nature of what people want from their work. Okay, I think there is something about we have in Fanta Land fantasized the workplace a bit, so we've got parents and Children. I think it's time to get more adult adult going on, and that requires conversations that requires openness. So I would say, if you are still apologizing for being interested in self management, all you think it's too risky. Then I think open the conversation with your people and say, How much do you want? Agency and choice and variation and influence. I think a whole lot of cool stuff will come out, and I think work with that because I think we don't have to again jump straight into a massive self management revolution. We can evolve into this. We can say, Well, let's see where we can create more learning and opportunities and choice on. Then you just gradually mature the proposition and you just keep talking, right? So So I think that's how we get over apologizing is we? Table it. We start to name it and understand our propensity towards it. We don't force it and we don't dominate it. I think we just let it emerge.
[00:34:11] spk_0: I agree so much and this is the reason why what I tell people all the time. You do not want Yes, people you want people. You don't have to be like minded. But you're like hearted, and that is what I love about you. Perry is the like hardness like you understand humanity and you understand its impact for the next generation. So for the people that are black hearted with us, how can they find your connect with
[00:34:37] spk_1: you? So there's only one of me. So on YouTube and Twitter and linked in Perry Tim's will get you to may. My website for the company is P t H r dot co dot UK. So it stands for people and transformation or h r p t h r dot co dot UK On like I say, Yeah, I'm always open to me. Like like hearted people. I like that phrase only. Thank you. Because I think we kind of do need to join forces a little bit and helping people or stop apologizing for being interested in self management. Andi, let's get them apologizing for keeping the hierarchical controls in place because we are choking and stifling. Ah Holton of human spirit.
[00:35:21] spk_0: Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much. And thank you for all will be listening to this. I hope you have an amazing and blessed day. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of unapologetically bold. I'm not sorry for if this to shoot anyway, please, like and subscribe and share with your friends as we continue the message of being unapologetically bold, Bobby and hot humans who are humble, open and transparent. See you next time.