Timestamps:
04:23 | Cookie Cutter
06:50 | Inconsistency
09:34 | Assume Nothing
13:26 | Attention, Renovators
18:24 | Day’s Development
21:56 | Boutique
26:14 | Planning on Profits
34:46 | Past, Present, and Future

Resources and Links:

[00:05:14] And I had someone up there managing the builder, and all I get is an email saying, 'Okay, we hit this milestone, I've double checked this, here's our checklist, release the next set of payments' kind of thing. And it's like, 'Wow, this is really easy'. And that's kind of what I do for my investors. It's just like, I do all the work. And they just sit back.

This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.

I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we’re back with Mike Day, the Managing Director of Apexx Developments. Having settled into life in Australia, he kicked off his development dreams. He shares the things he’s learnt along the way, and the two things every one of his residences includes for that much-needed touch of opulence.

Tyrone Shum:   

After Day made his way to Sydney to live, he purchased an investment property. To do this, he leveraged off his existing knowledge of buying an infill lot where a land subdivision developer had started the civils.

Mike Day:   

[00:04:23] I flew up to Brisbane, the developer took me all around, gave me a selection of different lots, and then I picked one. 

  

[00:04:33] And then we just sort of went ahead, he showed me some off the plan designs he had, so I didn't really go through an architectural design or anything. It was just off the plan cookie cutter type house that there was probably 100 of them in that suburb kind of thing. 

  

[00:04:47] But we tried to put a little bit of flair on it with different materials outsider or facade looks, but that worked out really well. And it was a very easy, seamless process. 

 

[00:05:02] The company I did it through offered a project management service because I was so far away. So it was like a $10,000 fee that was fully tax deductible against my salary. So that gave me a bit of benefit. 

 

[00:05:14] And I had someone up there managing the builder, and all I get is an email saying, 'Okay, we hit this milestone, I've double checked this, here's our checklist, release the next set of payments' kind of thing. And it's like, 'Wow, this is really easy'. 

  

[00:05:29] And that's kind of what I do for my investors. It's just like, I do all the work. And they just sit back. 

 

[00:05:36] And some of the things I also have committed to a few of my investors is to teach them the development side of the business. So what are the things I'm doing every day. So there's a few of them that I call quite regularly and update them on things that we've learnt, things that we have to do, compliance issues, engineering issues, legal issues, whatever. And they're really thankful to be able to come on that journey with me and learn the process.

Tyrone Shum:   

The renovation that he did in Canada was what he would describe as his worst investing moment. While the profit wasn’t the problem, the process wasn’t for him. However, this didn’t dampen his dreams.

Mike Day:   

[00:06:50] Then later on in life, about four years ago, I thought, 'I'd really like to just have some steady cash flow'. And so I educated myself and learnt trading on the stock market. And I just focused on the indexes, like the Dow Jones and the S&P 500 and those sort[s] of things. You just played the volatility, buy, sell, buy, sell. 

 

[00:07:14] And I tried day trading, sort of more futures markets and things like that. And whilst it was profitable in the end on a net result, [it was] very emotionally draining and highs and lows. There's days where you lose thousands of dollars and days where you make thousands of dollars. And then sometimes it takes weeks to make the thousands of dollars. 

  

[00:07:39] So I just found it a very inconsistent money making model because at the end of the month, if you're depending on, say, a specific amount that you need to live off of, it can be quite volatile. And you need to leave some contingency there to live off of or you could find yourself hitting a bad slide or a turn in the market and not being able to get out quick enough could be a bad result. 

  

[00:08:07] So, the renovation and that, I'm going to get back into trading, but I'm just going to focus through a broker on someone who looks to know more what they're doing kind of thing and just focus on the futures market. And look at some sort of more long term blue chip type stuff. Trying to play volatility can be quite volatile, literally.

Tyrone Shum:   

He found that it was a great education to understand how the markets work, delving into what makes company stocks fluctuate.

Mike Day:   

[00:08:50] When you look at the S&P 500 or the Dow Jones, it's basically a plethora of America's best companies all sort of contributing to whether that index fluctuates. 

  

[00:09:01] And it was [a] pretty interesting education to look at all the little things you can put on tools inside the platform that you use to give you indicators of when you should get in [and] when you should get out. And you know, learning how to read these charts, that is basically another language. And what they're trying to tell you to do, and whether you see it or not is a totally different question.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:09:34] I think everyone has different perspectives, every trader. That's the reason why I guess it's an emotional game as well, it's not as clear as black and white.

Mike Day:   

[00:09:41] If I had to pick one, I would say it was probably the renovation. Because I still think I have nightmares to this day of going into start a job. Because I did it all myself. And I had a general contractor helping me with some of the more complex things, but it's like... you rip out a vanity, right? And it's like, 'Okay, I bought a new vanity, but I need to replace all this plumbing under here' and it's like, 'Okay, get a plumber', and that's delayed. 

  

[00:10:08] And if I did it again, it would just be using a general contractor who can come and scope the job. But still, I just don't like the uncertainty. Again, same as the trading, it's the uncertainty of a renovation, where you go in, you rip something out, and it's like, 'Well, we didn't intend to have to put up a new wall' or, or take a wall down or replace plumbing or replace the kitchen. Maybe we were just gonna paint something. And then it's like, 'Well, I didn't budget for that'. 

  

[00:10:34] And the best advice I can give to any investor who wants to go into a renovation is: Whatever you think your budget is going to be, just double it. And if the feasibility still stacks up, or the numbers, whatever you're doing, but don't go into it just assuming you're gonna make a profit. Do your research on the end product that you're trying to achieve and what you believe sales are going to be and make sure there's enough revenue there. 

  

[00:10:58] But at the end of the day, it's all about your reno budget. Because I had educated myself, and I knew a lot of things and spent a lot of time before I endeavored into that, obviously building a few homes. 

 

[00:11:11] But when you do it new, it's brand new. It just gets built. You don't have to go in and fix things other than defects and things like that. So it was probably something I'll never go back to because I really prefer the knockdown rebuild model.

Tyrone Shum:   

Despite its challenges, they did well with that renovation in terms of the end result.

Mike Day:   

[00:11:39] I think the numbers, just from memory, were something like… I bought [it] for, like, $220,000. And we put $30,000 or $40,000 in renos, and I sold for $370,000. So it was a really good return. At the end of the day, there was a six figure number associated with the profit of the project. 

  

[00:12:03] But for those four months, if I could take it back, my emotional state and the highs and the lows and the ripping your hair out because you thought you could do a job that you couldn't...

  

[00:12:16] And the other thing about renovations is allowing enough time in your loans and things like that. Because if you need to have it done in three months, but then you need four or five to complete because some major thing needed fixing, well, then you're screwed. And that can really chew into your profit, the finance costs.

   

[00:13:02] Some people are really good at it. They're really calm and cool and are just like, 'Yeah, no problem. We know that was coming'. I think that calmness comes in knowledge and your numbers. Because if you allow double, and the expenses keep piling up, but you're not at the ceiling of that budget yet. 

Tyrone Shum:
With that, he has a piece of advice every renovator needs to hear.

Mike Day:  

[00:13:26] Make sure that you leave some budget left for the very end push. Because at the very end, even in developments, in brand new, the very end, it's like, that's where the variations start coming in. 

  

[00:13:38] It's like, 'Oh, well, I thought this was gonna look different. Can we change it to this?' Or, 'I want this now. Can we change it to that?' So you need to leave some contingency or some budget to make sure that even in brand new because things don't always turn out the way you want them to. So that's why we put contingency into development finance and into development budgeting on brand new. But you also have to do the same in any renovation project as well.

Tyrone Shum:   

When it came to deciding to start his own business, he reflected on his first few developments and the joy they brought him.

Mike Day:   

[00:15:09] The creation and design stage of a development is probably some of the most fun for me. Like, I'd say, it's second, because designing something with an architect, and then...

  

[00:15:21] But the funnest part is when you start seeing it constructed and bringing it to life. Obviously, the architect, I have to give them 90% responsibility for the vision of something, but I tell them kind of what I want and some of the features we want to see, something we believe is saleable. 

 

[00:15:39] And you put your little touches on things, like, change that wall, move that here, make this like that, or whatever the example is. Just little luxuries like lighting or putting a niche here or there or cutting out a window or moving the wall interiorly, looking at different materials for the outside facade to really give it that flavour. 

One of the must-haves for every development he does is a rarity in Australia, but is much-appreciated during certain times of the year.

Mike Day:  

[00:16:07] A fireplace is a must for me in every home, because that's what we have in Canada. So it's just my little touch up. And people wouldn't associate a fireplace with Canada, but at the end of the day, it's a source of warmth for me. And even in Sydney, winters get bloody cold, because the houses aren't centrally heated the way they are in Canada.

  

[00:16:29] So it's those little touches that I really love about the development process and why I chose that path, because I'm more in charge. Whereas [with] things like renovations, like we've been talking a lot about, you're really restricted unless you have a really big renovation budget to make a lot of dramatic changes.

Tyrone Shum:   

He’s noticed that the two processes are very different, and that his own processes have become more refined with each development.

Mike Day:   

[00:17:22] And I always add to them. So making little changes, going, 'Okay, well, we had a variation here to some design work to get things to pass code. Well, next time we're going to do all those checks before we even submit the DA and then we will reduce the risk of any future variation' kind of thing. 

  

[00:17:45] So it's always refining, always learning, always continuous improvement. I think that sort of comes from that corporate background that I come from. It's always looking at post analysis of any situation, and then reflecting and refining.

Coming up after the break, he delves into what’s in short supply in Sydney and how he plans to solve it…

Mike Day:   

[00:18:53] And there's a very, very specific reason for that. And it comes down to risk analysis within the investment process.

All about what class two buildings are and why the legislation changed…

Mike Day:   

[00:24:02] One of the business focuses I'm going to be taking is to specialise in that class two space.

He explains the pivot he needed to make to keep up with the changing world.

Mike Day:   

[00:31:57] Finance is probably one of your key drivers in costs in any development.

And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.

Tyrone Shum:   

Day’s current development is in a sundrenched location in Sydney’s south, and was named for the blue waters it overlooks.

Mike Day:   

[00:18:24] It's called Azure Burraneer. It's located at 14 Bulls Road in Burraneer down in the Sutherland Shire of Sydney. 

  

[00:18:34] It's a waterfront property facing northeast, so we get a massive sun aspect. Sunrise in the mornings are absolutely stunning. And that's really my focus: Water adjacent, waterfront, or water view type high end luxury product. 

  

[00:18:53] And there's a very, very specific reason for that. And it comes down to risk analysis within the investment process. 

  

[00:19:02] So one of the things my research has identified is that in the high end properties [that cost] $8 million [to] $10 plus million, there's a real undersupply of stock in Sydney. There's a lot of very, very wealthy people in Sydney, who own older homes that are large, their kids have moved out.

  

[00:19:21] There's a plethora of downsizers in the lower north shore, the eastern suburbs and down here in the Sutherland Shire, around the beaches areas, and I'm sure in the northern beaches as well. And there's just not enough available brand new type residences for people to downsize into, say sell their $15 million home and buy a $9 million home. Something that's really modern and luxurious, with full automation using your smartphones. 

His current focus is putting a lift into each residence, for the ultimate in luxury and convenience.

Mike Day:  

[00:19:59] So when you drive down into your garage, you can take an elevator— or what we call I guess in Australia, we call them lifts, we call them elevators in Canada— and you get to come out into your home from a lift. That's your front door, basically. 

  

[00:20:14] And I really liked that high end nature, because we can focus on really high quality materials, looking at sustainability. Because sometimes when you want to build an eco, or a sustainable type product, it's not always very cheap. And the high end sort of allows you to go with your values, and say, 'Well, I want to build something that I feel I'm adding value to the community with'. 

  

[00:20:46] And the high end allows me to make those selections because people want to live in a home that looks after them, and contributes to their quality of life. 

 

[00:20:59] So using things like stainless steel pipes instead of PVC. Because sometimes in the hot summer, when you've got water sitting in a PVC pipe, there's certain substances and things that are released through the plastics. Bottled water, you know, don't keep your bottle of water in the hot car, right? Kind of like that. 

 

[00:21:26] So it just aids towards bettering the owner's experience in not only contributing to their joy of 'Look what I live in', but the environment and the materials that are around them contributing to their humanity and their well being as well.

Tyrone Shum:   

The environments that he creates come in the form of houses, townhouses, and apartments.

Mike Day:   

[00:21:56] So as I started with just those custom houses, and I was looking at a deal in Mosman, recently, where we were going to knock down an existing house and build a nice 400 square metre sort of home kind of thing, really big and bold, and, you know, selling it for, like, $25 million kind of thing. 

 

[00:22:14] But then there's other ones where there's... I like small boutique, I don't like to go too big in that arena. So, four to 10 townhouses kind of thing, we'll look at sites like that. 

  

[00:22:30] My current development is, I guess, what you would call a dual occupancy. But effectively what I've done is it's a top and bottom apartment style. With a shared garage. And so it's basically an apartment building with only two units on two floors. Still meeting the eight and a half metre height limit of the zoning controls.

 

[00:22:52] But when you look at it from the front, so if you guys visit the marketing website called azureburraneer.com.au, you'll be able to see the front facade. It looks like a house, Tyrone. It just looks like a 350 square metre house with two floors. But when the garage opens up, it opens up to a 220 square metre garage with two double car garages and plant area and storage room. 

  

[00:23:18] And then they have personal lifts going up to each residence, and a state of the art security system. Because it's a class two building.

Tyrone Shum:
A class two building is defined as a building where residents live over top of one another or have a shared garage, or both. 

Mike Day:  

[00:23:38] The legislation changed in July 2021 about class two buildings. I'm sure we've all heard on the radio and other podcasts about cladding nightmares and builders using wrong materials in class two buildings and not doing the right structural things in that one apartment that had to basically be evacuated. I remember some time ago. So the class two legislation has tightened up a lot. 

  

[00:24:02] One of the business focuses I'm going to be taking is to specialise in that class two space. So that will mean taking on some larger projects, building unit buildings, because whether you build something two floors or 10, it's the same process. It's the same regulations, it's the same code. The builder might be a little bit different. But it's generally the same thing.

Tyrone Shum:
The projects he has coming up are still in the feasibility stage, but he’s keen to share what he’s able to.

 

[00:24:42] So the process there is it's going to be a high end sort of waterfront type property with about 30 different units. And we're having an architect conceptualise everything in sketches and going to the council and asking for a pre DA meeting to approve our design kind of thing before we even start spending money. 

  

[00:25:06] So it's another one of those risk analysis things in the development process to say: How can we limit our expenditure before we really know if we can do this? Because this one also is a bit more complicated and will require a planning proposal where we're going to be altering height limits and floorspace ratios and things like that to increase the yield. 

  

[00:25:25] But council has been telling us or we're getting messages from them saying that they want this kind of development in this area. 

  

[00:25:33] I don't mind those little challenges. It's a lot of fun. But again, the high end space is where I like to play, because it's just underpinned by buoyancy and support from a lack of inventory for wealthy people to buy those high end type homes.

Tyrone Shum:   

With the shortage of building supplies that COVID-19 brought, building costs have skyrocketed. In order to make a profit, Day has a solid plan.

Mike Day:   

[00:26:14] What we do in the build process to try to reduce costs is... like, because the concrete, the structural steel, and the timber and everything that is used in typical developments can really fluctuate month to month. And when you sign a build contract, some builders now are asking for cost plus, some of them are asking for the ability to vary any time a cost varies. And that gives you a lot of uncertainty. 

  

[00:26:43] One of the strategies I deploy is to lock down the concrete, the structural steel and probably 60% to 70% of the expenditure at the time we sign the contract. So I won't sign the contract with the builder until he's got a commitment from his concrete, given them all of the volume that he's going to order and by when kind of thing, so we can lock away those prices. 

  

[00:27:09] And then other things you can do to save money, Tyrone, as a developer, is you can take on the role of, say, what an architect sometimes would do or the builder does in house, and you can take on all the material selection for yourself.

Tyrone Shum:
As a tendering specialist who comes from a project development background, Day took on all of the material selections.

Mike Day:  

[00:27:37] So I went and did the hardwood, the tiles, the joinery, all the kitchen cupboards and the stone benchtops. And the door handles, the doors, everything. All your fittings, your fixtures, so pretty much everything your eye can see other than the Gyprock on the wall that the builder sources. And that's another component I asked them to lock down as well, because that's a major sort of component there is. 

 

[00:28:07] And then what I negotiate with my builder is that all of those costs, that could be, say, let's say it's a $3 million build, let's say $1 million of that cost is items that I'm in charge with, I negotiate with the builder to pass for him to pay the bills on that, but put no margin on that. 

  

[00:28:29] So because he's not doing any of the work, all he has to do is place the order, receive the materials, and then he allows for some labour to install it, which I pay for in the main 60% [to] 70% bulk of the fixed price contract we do. 

  

[00:28:45] But in that other 30%, there's no margin on that million dollars. So I've been able to negotiate in the past. I'm not sure how I'm going to go in the future with that strategy. But it has worked for me in the past to reduce build cost and margin by taking on a lot of work. 

  

[00:29:04] Now, please understand that if you're going to deploy that strategy, you really need to understand how to manage spreadsheets, how to do tendering, how to negotiate with suppliers' rates, and manage those relationships, pitting people against each other to try to get the best price. 

  

[00:29:24] And it can be quite a laborious job. It took me about five months to tender, and you have to start that quite early on in the process. As soon as you achieve construction certification. Because your builder has certain timelines that he'll need to meet. He's probably got to front 50% of the bill to get the concrete slab and all the building management stuff up and running. And then in the latter 50%, that's where all the materials you're selecting and sourcing start needing to be installed. 

  

[00:29:58] So you're under the pump as well to meet timelines, to make sure that you have materials ordered, ready, in stock and ready to go for the builder to install.

Tyrone Shum:   

The time and effort he puts in is always worth it, which is illustrated by his profit margin.

Mike Day:   

[00:30:38] And from an investor's standpoint, it's really good because they can see how much of the labour I'm taking on to increase profitability for them. So the profit goes up, their returns go up. And it's a win/win for everyone. 

 

[00:30:55] Now, obviously, it takes a lot more time and focus. But even things like in the marketing side of things, by taking on certain roles, on my end, I can reduce the impact from our marketing campaign and cost. So maybe you do a few posts of your own instead of paying a marketing company. And you can potentially save yourself $500 to $1,000 a month in ongoing management fees of your marketing campaign. And there's all kinds of little ways that you can sort of trim and save in the budget there.

Tyrone Shum:   

Ultimately, to have a successful project you need to delve in with no holds barred. As a result of rising costs, Day found he needed to pivot.

Mike Day:  

[00:31:57] Finance is probably one of your key drivers in costs in any development. So I prefer the solution of private finance, even though the fees are a little bit higher, because we don't need the serviceability and income testing. So the investors can just put in capital, and we can move very quickly without pre-sales.

 

[00:32:17] But I'm finding with the increase to build costs, one of the ways that we can save money is by pivoting in the finance solution. And going with a lower cost finance solution and potentially bringing on, say, a serviceability partner. And, for example, someone might come in and say, pay $250,000 in serviceability fees, and the next investor might have $500,000 cash in the deal, but we give them the same equity share, because the serviceability partner is reducing our costs to make the development profitable. So his role is just as critical as someone who put in double the amount of money. 

  

[00:32:59] So their return on cash invested is actually a bit higher being a serviceability partner, because they're putting in less cash, but they also have to have the income to support these large loans of, like, $8 million [to] $10 million.

  

[00:33:15] But that's just another strategy you can deploy to reduce costs kind of thing. And we have to look at every aspect. As a business owner, you look at your main cost items in your business model, and then you have to do a deep dive on those. 

 

[00:33:31] We found some pretty cool hybrid solutions in finance, as you would know, a mixture of privates and a mixture of standard finance. If you don't have someone who can service $10 million, but you've got someone who could service $5 million, we might do a mixture of standard and private.

  

[00:33:31] That's something I think that a lot of rookie developers don't really understand. And I'm sure there's a lot of people in this space listening, that are trying to get into development, have gone out and done some of these courses by some of these educators, and they're all quite good. They all have something to offer. 

  

[00:34:15] But at the end of the day, the best education you'll ever get is going in and doing something and going through the whole process, and then refining it after and then doing it again.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:34:46] If you met yourself, say, 10 years ago, what do you think you would have said to him?

Mike Day:   

[00:34:51] [I] probably would have slapped him silly to be honest with you. [I was] just a really rigid and ignorant person, just someone who thought, 'This is the way', and I wasn't as open to receiving the gifts of life as I was. And I was very just like... tunnel vision sometimes in my focus. 

 

[00:35:21] So not a bad thing, but it's just like... I look back and I think, 'Okay, if I had not spent my 20s partying it away, and I could have taken all the money I made and bought a property $100,000 back then, like, as in my early 20s, maybe $150,000'. And those properties are worth $500,000 [to] $600,000 today. 

 

[00:35:43] Now, hindsight is always 20/20, Tyrone, we always wish we had done things differently. But I would say 20 years ago, I would have slapped him silly, because I would have said, 'Do this, get into life a little bit sooner'. But I had a lot of fun in my 20s. I can't say I regret it. 

 

[00:36:04] But if I was talking to that person, I would encourage them to look at investing a lot sooner.

 

[00:36:17] One of the life changing pivotal moments for me was when I read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And I think it's, like, the first sentence or the first page or something in his book, where he's like, 'Security is defined by the number of months that you can survive without a paycheck'. 

 

[00:36:37] And at the time, I was like, 'Really? I've got maybe two months.' And I always thought a job was security. But it's really not. So you need to have an investment strategy, starting to be deployed. 

Tyrone Shum:
His advice to parents is to encourage their children to get into investing as soon as their early 20s.

Mike Day:  

[00:37:02] Just with something, anything, just to give them a little taste of what it means to have your money working to deploy that mindset for them. 

  

[00:37:11] Because my dad was an investor his whole life, he played the stock market and loved it. And now he's retired. I think he retired at 55 or 60. And they just live off dividends. 

  

[00:37:23] But I never really engaged with the whole stock market thing, property was always my thing. But I was very resistant to the whole investment journey until 2006, when I bought my first investment property. 

  

[00:37:41] So for me to answer your question, I would say, I just encouraged that guy to get into investing a lot sooner. And there's so many different ways that you could do it.

Tyrone Shum:   

[00:37:57] Well, Mike, you've achieved a lot in such a short period of time. And I think you've gone a long way, as you said, there's been so many things that you have accomplished through the property development. How much of your success has been due to your intelligence, skill and hard work? And how much do you think has been probably through luck?

Mike Day:   

[00:38:17] I'd have to say probably 98% is all just hard work, knowledge, [and] understanding. And some of the most probably critical success is just research and not jumping in emotionally too fast. 

 

[00:38:37] And when I mean research, it's like, research that growth corridor, or research the market cycles. What happened during the last few? What can you anticipate? When should you buy? When should you sell? And that was really what gave me some early success was just the cycle.

  

[00:38:55] I added a lot of value doing some things here and there, developments and renovations, but it was really just buying at the right time of the cycle. And as Robert Kiyosaki says, you make money when you buy, not when you sell. And that's where I made my money. It's 100,000% true, because you make money when you buy. 

 

[00:39:13] And if you buy at the wrong time, then you still might make money. But you could have made a lot more if you had done a little bit more research about the market cycle.

Tyrone Shum:   

Turning to the future, he has a couple of things in the pipeline. One is an upcoming series revolving around class two buildings that will include dos and don’ts and cautionary tales for investors and budding developers.

Mike Day:  

[00:40:59] Also, we've got quite a big pipeline of projects in the works at the moment in sort of [the] feasibility stage, as I explained earlier, that will ultimately come to fruition I believe. So watch this space, click follow or like and if you're interested in becoming an investor, definitely reach out, I can explain the whole process to you, happy to, if the timing is right, we can go visit some developments and things together, show you what we're trying to achieve. But the process is pretty simple. But I'm happy to walk you through it. 

  

[00:41:45] Obviously, growing investor capital helps me to continue to help people grow their wealth dreams as well, using the knowledge and experience of my 20 year journey in managing businesses, managing large portfolios in Fortune 500 companies, and project management in high end luxury developments. 

  

[00:42:07] So I think I've got a pretty good working knowledge. And like I said, I'm also willing to help the investors learn the process along the way so that they can become a more sophisticated investor. Because at the end of the day, let's say you just wanted to be a money partner always. But one of the main contributions to some of my investors is there's a gentleman who has done four different developments as a money partner, and he brings a lot of really good ideas and says, 'Well, in this one, this happened, and look out for that'. And then you go start asking some questions you may or may not have asked without that teamwork and that support. 

[00:42:49] So you don't always need to learn for the sake of doing. You can learn for the sake of being more sophisticated in your knowledge as an investor and participating and contributing to the team environment that you would be part of in an investor group doing developments.

Thank you to Mike Day, our guest on this episode of Property Investory.