Welcome, welcome everybody to career strategy Saturday, I'm Michele Heyward, founder of the tech company positive hire where I connect experience women of color STEM professionals to employers who are looking for you to fill their management roles as middle management up to C suite. Today, I'm so happy that we have Daria Rosen here with us. She is an IT professional, and her way into tech into STEM is a little bit different than what many of you may have done in your career, which is why I wanted her to join us today. Daria, how are you doing?

I'm doing well. Thank you.

Can you tell the audience a bit about yourself and how you ended up in it?

Yes, I can. I'm dolly Rosen, and welcome to all of you. Thank you for having me here today. Michelle. And I came a very circuitous route. I have a business background. And I actually fell into it. Michelle, did you want me to share that story?

Yeah. So this is a really, really funny story. Okay.

So I was at a job a temporary job that I did not care for standing at a coffee machine. I overheard some gentleman talking about a company hiring. So I asked him, Hey, do you think if I give you my resume, they will take a look at it. They said, Sure. Now, footnote, I don't know who those gentlemen were, I still don't know who those gentlemen are. But they did take my resume. And they submitted it. I got a call from the hire from the interviewer, where he proceeded to ask a series of questions. At the time, I didn't realize it was for an IP position. So he's asking all these questions. And every question I would answer, no. And during the interview, he said, You know, I have to buy their policy. I have to ask you every single question once I start, so it became a game, because each question he asked, I answered, No. So we're laughing and chatting. And he says, I have one more question. I said, Okay, let's go for it. And he asked the question, do you know, Microsoft? And after asked, answering about 49 questions, no. I said, Yes, I can answer that one. Yes. He said, Oh, my. Now I have to ask you another series of questions. So as you can imagine, if you've been talking to someone, and they told you no 49 times, what are you expecting for this next series of questions? No. Well, as he asked the questions, I could answer each and every one. Not only could I answer them, but I could tell him they were asking things like, under what File menu? Can you do this functionality? I could give him one option, I could give him two options. The reason why I knew the answers to the Microsoft questions, is because the job that I was in that summer, my only responsibility or my primary responsibility was to make sure I didn't break a report. What I did not know was that that report was in Excel. And so for the summer, I had purchased the Excel Bible, and I read all summer long, how to work in Excel. So I basically taught myself Excel, and the other Microsoft suites, so I could answer. So in short, he said, Oh, you answered all those questions. This is wonderful. So at the end of the interview, I said, What am I interviewing for? He says, oh, IT project manager. Now remember, I answered 49 questions? No. I said, what is that? And he described it. And I said, Hmm, let me ask you this. Because I was also a wedding coordinator. I said, you have a budget. You have a client, you have a start date and an end date, and it is your job, to coordinate everything. To ensure that it's done. He said exactly. I said, Well, I have the transferable skills, like okay, so I was hired as an IT project manager. The story gets funnier, because remember, I don't know it. So I'm sitting in these very technical meetings with I'm in a foreign country because they're talking things that I don't know what they're sharing. And I would say, could you please stop, pretend I'm a kindergartener and explain to me what you're talking about. And that's what they did. So I fell into it. But just because I didn't know anything about it, and the way that I had to learn it, it became a string. Because I could then go back to the, to the clients and the customers. And I could talk to them about the very technical things that they were asking in language that they could understand.

So Daria, What year was this? This this is the part that I want other people to understand what year? It is. She finds it buddies.
This was in 1996 96. Yes. So this was prior to y2k.

Yeah, so y2k. So so if you're thinking like, wait, I could not do this. But she has been with it since 1996. Learning what it is literally, in the mid 90s. And I can tell you, there were there were a lot of IT groups back then. So it was really IT consulting companies, right. And you're ordering large equipment and racks and stuff. So it was really interesting. She shared this. They're like, Oh, no, I have to have a career strategy Saturday, because a lot of us have a traditional track into STEM, we went to college for engineering or computer science or IT management information systems, computer information system. And so we ended up in it or something related, and you're like, I can answer the fifth question. But it goes to something I wanted to focus on, which is communication, the ability to communicate as a technical lead, and I wanted and I liked the way you said, you were able to take say, hold up, I need you to explain to me what it is. And and there's two questions in there. One is the communication skills. And the other being an African American woman in a room say, I don't know what you're talking about, you're gonna have to break it down to me. So I want us to focus on first on the communication part of being able to talk to other people who aren't as technical who or who don't have the technical. What I want to say understanding for what's going on, and how does that and how has that helped you in your career?

Okay, so I'm going to tackle the first part, in the communication, I have never had a problem in in speaking and being in a room full of men and feeling intimidated or that I was not worthy. So for me to be able to speak up and say, Okay, stop. I just need you to explain it differently. For me, that was just normal. And I think because I did wasn't fearful, I was not shy. I was even though I didn't know it, I was never looked at negatively. In fact, they kind of thought it was a joke. A joke, but they were laughing with me, not at me. And there is a difference. And so when they would explain, and I would parrot back what I understood, and they're like, Oh yeah, you got it, you got it. So the the, the thing that that communication is, is one is confidence. And two, sometimes you do have to laugh at yourself, because others are going to make might laugh at you. But just knowing it was my job to help them be successful, and that they were aware of so it was actually us working synergistically together. Because I remember I came from a business background. And when they would go into meetings, and they would talk to the business side, it would go over the business people's head and they come out going we are so frustrated. And I got to be the bridge because I understood what the needs of the business were. But then I also began to understand the limitations and what could be done or could not be done on the technical side. 

I like that the ability women oftentimes have a great ability to communicate and connect with other people. And I think sometimes we don't leverage it as much as we should. And I was that person like you were especially in construction. I could talk to the design engineer, but I had to translate it to somebody who was operating a bulldozer or it real He does, it really does help. And so let's talk about the community, the communicating with your customers. And because you had internal and external customers, internal customers, still were like the business unit, the business department, the sales department. And then other part of that, were your your customers, which had hired your company. So how did that communication work? And what kind of styles or suggestions could you give to other women when it comes to dealing with internal customers as well as external customers?

Customers? First, I'm gonna say customers or customers, whether it's internal or external, it, the conversation changes, the internal of setting expectation of what can be done, of ensuring that the customer knows that you are listening to them, because like most, most customers, most people, when they know that you're listening to them, and you're, you're hearing what they're saying, and taking that back. If you can tell them, if you can gain what it is that they are asking for, and translate that to someone who's technical, they can tell you, you know what, that piece of it isn't even possible. This piece is, but then being gone, going back to explain, okay, this part of your request, we can do this part we may not be able to do. So setting the expectation, both from the external clients, the internal customers. Now, there are those times when people are like, we don't care if it can't be done, you figure it out. And so that is the way in talking to the builders, the technical folks was being able to come up with ideas to give them ways to think about the box to draw questions from them, well, if it can't do this, what about that. So when I talked to it doesn't for me, it has always been when I talk to you as my customer, I am talking to you the way that one I would want to be treated that too, I'm letting you know that I'm listening to you. And that I'm going to work with you to the best of my abilities best both internal and external. But that's just my style
very informative. I like the way you said customers or customers and definitely communicate with them now, through your 23 coming up 23 years and it more than that in industry 30 plus years in industry at this point, what has been one of your biggest struggles and what have been one of your biggest triumphs wins in your career.


I'm gonna go with the wind first. And the wind has been. So when I started out, I was one of the technical other than the project manager, I actually transitioned to actually becoming one of the builders in the medical it in the medical it world. And because remember, I can I can I can think business I can think technical. So the win was Daria, we want you to become a manager. Now that was not what I ever wanted to do. I wanted to do my job, my job only. But I was convinced by a very, very good and dear mentor, to take on a team. And I did. And so when I say a win, is that throughout my career has been been the fostering and the encouraging of others to step out and to do more than they believe that they can do. So when I see many of the people who were on my various teams throughout the years and I see where they have gone. That to me is my biggest win. Because it's translating my belief in them to they believe in themselves. And then they many of them are just shining. That is my biggest thing and most of them are still in the IT field.


I love it. When you plant that seed. You honor it but you aren't always there to see it grow. And to see the fruit there. Yeah, I absolutely agree. It's good to go back like oh my god, the tree is there and has apples on it. Good. It's so good. Yeah,

absolutely. So the greatest struggle. The greatest struggle is when you know or when I knew what I was capable of and others didn't I didn't think that I could. And would would actually even tell you, you can't do that. And try to, I won't say sabotage, but to put things in to put in roadblocks to make, to try to make sure that I wasn't successful. That is, that was a that has been a challenge throughout my career, both in the IT side and in others. Now, the good thing is that it's like, okay, you put a roadblock, I made a sturdy your stuff than that, I'm going to try to figure out a way to get around it. And most times I have, so without, in most instances, messing up the relationships.
I would best cope. Corporate culture gatekeepers. So they, they're telling you what you can't do, because the culture of that organization is Daria, can't do that. But you're like, that has nothing to do with me. And and it's really important to identify who those gatekeepers are. And when you see those barriers, figuring out how to work around most of those we get into discussions, oftentimes, we're like, you know what, they don't want me to do it, I'm not gonna do it. And, to a degree, you have already proven them right. And, and, and it's not a right or wrong answer. Because sometimes you're just in a place emotionally and physically, we're in you can't work away around that barrier. You could be emotionally drained. So I can completely understand like, you know, I worked my way around, some of the other ones is like, it didn't happen. We were happy. We were having another discussion where it's talking about women of color, have a very small or if any window to fail. Correct. So we take into that as well into account as to whether or not we're going to try to do go around that barrier. Because we understand the high risk we then face when we do so. So yeah, absolutely.

Let me give you two examples where I was specifically not even subtly but very verbally told, on one instance, I was told, you will never ever be able to do this job. So don't even know why you apply. To in an interview, in an executive interview, one of the one of the interviewers said, when when asked by the person who was conducting the interviews, do you want her on her on your team? And to my face in the interview, he said, she's not going to be able to cut it at all, don't want her. Now, the person interviewing said you don't want to I do. Now, that is where I spent nine years. So I've worked with the person who told me, she's not going to cut it. And I always very nicely reminded him. Don't you wish you had gotten me on your team? So yes, you're sometimes told specifically and other times, it's very subtle, but you know,

you definitely definitely know who you are. Yeah, you can see a lot of mediocre progress further than you. Just mediocre coworkers. Let me clarify progress further than you just because of people's biases and inability to believe even even when you're doing it that when you somebody must be helping you know. So I absolutely agree. I want to go back to something else. You said that was really, really important and key you said mentor,
and I was like,

oh my are we getting into the mentor and discussion and we we Daria and I have known each other guests. It's been over a year now. And virtually I haven't met her yet in person. We have talked, I talk often about mentors, but I want you to talk about mentors because remember, she's 30 plus years and this is something we're still telling women of color especially about mentors. Can you tell us how you found your mentor? Why did that person become your person because it's probably more than one become your mentor and like what was that thing that says you know what, I want this person as a as a mentor for me.


The first person that that my greatest mentor the one who who convinced me that I should go into IT management there's I've always got a story. It's actually One of my girlfriend's husband. And at the time when I was working at the same company, I was in a completely different division. But due to downsizing, I ended up working with him. So at the very beginning, and this is a segue at the very beginning, I went into his office and I said, Okay, I am your wife's friend, now you are going to be my boss, you know how I am? I'm not going to change. Can you deal with that? He said, Yes. Then he said, I'm your friends have been, you know, me, I'm not going to change. Can you deal with that? Yeah. So we set the ground rules of business and pleasure. But he knew what my strengths were, he could see things that they were there all along, I just, they just weren't really being utilized. So when he convinced me and actually it was more he basically because I kept saying no. And he said, No, this, this promotion is yours. And I'm like, Okay, I'll do it. But what as a mentor, what he did, and what I learned from him and do for others is let people do their jobs, do not micromanage. When they have problems, the door is open for them to come to you to feel comfortable with you to be able to say, What am I doing right? What am I doing wrong? Or can you give me some pointers, and then let them go. And that is what he did. So I was able to do things that I never ever imagined on that project, because of his mentorship. And the second mentor that I had was actually when I became a consultant, and it was that same type of, of management style of, you know what your job is, you know, what the company's goals are? You do you do you. And so when both of those people have let me be me have let me manage my teams, the way that I saw fit within the realm of the corporate structure. And it has worked. And that is how I in turn, mentor the people who have worked for me, and worked with me.


Absolutely, absolutely love it. I have a similar mentor and style. Some days I miss it. Oh, yeah. And for some reason, even on Twitter, I pick up mentees I'm like, what I do
so because they know they do to them.


Yes, that is very, very true. So I want to go into our last question, which is talking about finding corporate cultures that are inclusive, and diverse. And in your vast experience? What have you found to be your level of comfort or when it comes to inclusiveness and what that that diversity in that workplace looks like for you.


I've experienced both I've experienced the ones where there was not diversity, or nor inclusiveness. But the last two companies that I worked with were very, very diverse and very inclusive, with women, of all minorities all the way up to C suite. So I've seen both in those areas where it has been inclusive, you can see that it's not just in the ones that work. It's not just lip service, you can actually see it, you can see women, you can see women of color, in different leadership roles at different levels. And when you are a young woman starting out on your career, and you're looking around saying, is there anybody like me if they bring me in one to fill a quota to fill to fill a number? Can I see myself? And when you look around and you see other women in those places, you're like, Yeah, I can see myself if they can do it. I can do it. There's a vast difference. All right.


I believe that I haven't experienced it, but I believe it is easier to see yourself doing something if you see somebody else doing it. I absolutely do agree to that. And sometimes it takes that one or five to come first to do it. And it's like, alright, am I that person that could be cut out for this?

You might be that one. Yeah, if you're currently in a place where you don't see it, you might be that one because You may have what that company needs. And they can see, oh, you know what, there's a lot of benefits of diversity with color with with women. And, and to make it not just lip service. So you could be that one if you're finding yourself in a company that doesn't currently have it.

And I want to go back to something, some things that Daria specifically wrote down when she said she was in a workplace that was diverse and inclusive, she could see the diversity in all levels of management, and it wasn't lip service. So it's all levels of management is so many, it's not just white women in HR, right? It was not just, you know, a few women of color in middle management, it is all the way up through to the C suite. 

So it's really, really important when you are out looking at employee, as you're looking at your next career move, that you take into account what is currently in that existing workplace, because you need to understand what an inclusive workplaces can look like. But also understand and be true to yourself, Would you be willing to be that person to go in before it's diverse and inclusive, to make that transition, because it could be 15 years before it gets to that place? And, and and you can say, you know, I can stay three, four years and work on it. And then it's 12 years in and it's still not there, what do you do? So you really need to have make some internal decisions, when it comes to the type of workplace you want, where you want your career to go. And really pay attention. And the great thing is, back in 96, this wasn't always easy as pulling up a company's website, and seeing all of their people in management, especially with pictures, you might get a name. But if you see everybody name is Bob, Joe and Jim. Really good. And I some days I get married my mother, she named me, Michelle. And because of my pictures not up there making a certain assumption to that picture shows up. And I want people to know what I look like. And in some days, I'm not always happy. She named me Michelle. But anyway, she's happy, I guess. So we are going to take some questions. But first, I want to say Daria, thank you so much for joining us today. This is a great discussion on a non traditional track into it, but still encountering encountering some of the same barriers and wins that women of color face in corporate America. So thank you for having me. You are quite well, everybody. We will be back in April, focusing on financial literacy. This April is financial literacy month. So definitely, definitely join us then.