The Jay Allen Show on Safety FM
David Perrodin
February 9, 2021
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Dr. David Perrodin. During the conversation David discusses his career, how he got into safety, his books and his podcast. Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.
Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks with Dr. David Perrodin. During the conversation Davis discusses his career, how he got into safety, his books and his podcast.

Enjoy it today on The Jay Allen Show.

Safety FM would like to thank Air Med Care for being the signature sponsor of this episode!

[00:00:02] spk_0: this is visited. This show is brought to you by safety FM eyes streaming Now on safety FM dot Life. Well, hello and welcome to another glorious edition off the J Allen show. Well, thank you for coming back and taking a listen to what we have going on here. It is always a grand time, especially when I know you've turned on the radio station or the podcast to take a listen. One more time to what we have going on here on the jail, Joe. Hopefully you're off to a fantastic week so far, I know things keep on changing in this dynamic world of ours. So I hope things are fine and well in your neck of the woods. Today we have the actual great opportunity to sit down with someone who have never spoken with before. And let me tell you a little bit about him. I get to speak with David Peat corroding Ph. D. He is the Wrangler of nonlinear things that are impossible to predict or control. He's an author, researcher, professor and host of the safety doc podcast. David earned a doctor of philosophy degree in educational leadership and policy analysis from the University of Wisconsin Madison, where he researched high stakes safety decisions in education, health care and military. He delivered to school safety presentations on Wisconsin public television and also wrote and directed a film about school safety. Dr Peruvians. Work has been published in a number of journals, and he has frequently interviewed by the media about safety topics. David is the author of The School of Errors. Rethinking School Safety in America is currently writing a book titled The Velocity of Information. Making Sense during Chaotic times, and David is an avid long distance cyclists. So there's something about him that you probably did not know before we get it started. And then before I forget, Dr David Boroden claims that he has America's top safety show. Yeah, I chuckled to inherited, but I think it's worth sharing. I mean, you have to be self proclaimed. It's something, and that's the self proclaiming thing. We get into that during the conversation so hopefully you'll take a listen here. So let me not drag on too much and let's get this started with a conversation between David Prodan and George Truly right here on the Jing Alan Joe Mhm So I'll tell you. I've reached out to you. I found your stuff online. I was definitely interested on having you coming onto the show. This particular one, I will tell you this will do. We'll end up doing more of a podcast style. So this one will get released into the podcast before we actually release it into our radio station aspect. But I there's so many questions that I wanted to ask, and I don't even know where to start to be quite honest with you. So? So as I looked at everything you have going on, how did you get started in the world to safety? What intrigued you about it? Why did you say this is the path that I'm going to go down with my career? Yeah, I I tracked that back to when I was a kid sleeping in my bed, you know, maybe 67 years old and, uh, small town in Wisconsin. How they would notify the fire department is they would do a siren. Um, so they would they would ring this, this siren, you know, maybe eight or 10 times, and then the firefighters would get down to the fire station trucks would get out. And every time I heard the siren, I would run out of my house, run to the end of the block, and I had a clear view down to the fire station. And I would just wait for the fire fighters to arrive. I could tell by the if they had to ring the siren again, whether it was a in town or out of town fire. Um, Cal, the trucks going out. I knew it. The tanker truck went out that that was an out of town fire. So it just got to be this this interest right When I was when I was young, um, and the mawr I took on different leadership roles. There's always a question of, Well, who wants to do safety and not a lot of hands go up. E I I do. Because I I have an interest in how systems work, how people react under stress. I also feel that, you know, I'm very thorough. I'm a very confident presenter, and I could make people feel confident in situations, um, you know, which could be chaotic. So it's been it's been a really natural fit from from little on. Okay, So you're telling me essentially, then you're trying to get even with the fire department for waking you up early. When you were a child, I loved it. I loved it. E couldn't get enough of it. But, I mean, it could be, you know, two in the morning. And I could hear that first, you know, the siren just starting. And I would just rock it out of my bed and the door would, you know, fly open to the house. You know, this was back in the seventies, you know? So the screen door bangs and road and just standing there, my pajamas at the at the corner, you know, waiting. So so, yeah, I know. I I miss that, actually, you know, they don't do that anymore. Now it's all it's all pages. So these sirens, if you're lucky, you get the lights. But you really have to be paying close attention, because at least if you're in the neighborhood before they actually start the whole thing off, But I'm sure you're already aware of that. So when you start, you're doing this and you say that you're going toe. Look, let's say for instance into safety. What exactly are you looking into first? Because you said it's the seventies. So as you are where during this time frame, there's not a lot of, let's say, quote unquote safety practices when you go to college. So what do you What do you look for? As you know, that this is what you want to go into. Right? So I started. Um you know what? My first jobs was working at a pool, so we had a new indoor pool open at our town. And then I was immersed in safety procedures for you know what happens. You know, if there's an incident at the pool, for example, and then also what would you know? What? We're trading people to respond, you know, to how would you respond if you are your river? Somebody capsized in the commune of things like that. So, you know, I had these thes early type experiences when I when I got to college, I needed to fill my schedule out, and it just it just happened that the university I went to offered firefighting. Um, as an option, you they would teach you, you know, firefighting. You know what and and you could become for certified has a firefighter. So I took that. I enrolled, um, and absolutely loved it, right? Soaked up. Everything just studied. And and and that is, um, you know, that was really the professional step then, into understanding instant command systems on multiple agencies work together personally, you know, my own self awareness and responsibility to be on a scene and things like that. So I got to work with some phenomenal people, you know, at a very early time in my in my life. So so, yeah, you know, part of it is I need it. I need it to classes. And it worked out. It's kind of funny how sometimes how class credits end up turning into something that you don't see at that particular time. Right? Right? Right. Yeah. It was so funny because yeah, but my my roommates are like, you're doing what I'm like. Yeah, there's this. There's this option now to do this, so but yeah, and it was it was awesome. But also I struggled in one area J I could not read a plat book. So a plat book, You know, you open it up and it'll It'll have sections of land. So if there's a fire out in the woods or something like that, you have to be able to read this plat book and coordinate roads. I could never hold on. You're you're dating yourself now. The audience going to GPS did not exist. Well, gps, save me, right. I'm s Oh, yeah. I mean, GPS came along and got me back in the game, but But otherwise I'm like, I I just I couldn't get it. It was it was one of those Achilles heels for me, but but yeah, that's where you know, obviously technology, I think has opened accessibility for for firefighting, for safety. For some people that had to interface with these kind of old school or complicated systems, Well, I always look at it. It's always a good thing to be able to read like Annapolis and things along those lines because I always think that technology is great until the moment that it fails you. Because then once it kind of goes haywire. Then no one really knows what to dio. Because think about it. I mean, think about it when you were a child on how you used to probably memorize some of your friends phone numbers, maybe your parent and so on and how different of the world we are. And right now, using that as a small example of you just go. Oh, I have a contact list, and that's it. But if you were to lose that phone and nothing's backed up, what is that gonna look like? Yeah, absolutely. You know, redundancy in systems. And, you know, that's you bring up a terrific point because the book I'm writing at the moment the velocity of information a section talks about cognitive offloading or meaning that, you know, today we we basically put about 30% of our, you know, kind of think about it of our of our braids into the cloud. So, you know, instead of having to remember what to dio, if there's a bombs right or something, we just We just know we have to go to, like, a checklist or app now an app on our phone. And it would tell us what to do if we were at a school or a company or something like that. And, you know, there are pluses to cognitive offloading, right, and a e d in the hallway, in a public building, you just need to know to get to the e e d. Once you open up and you use it, it will tell you, you know, put the pads on this part of the person, wait for these colors, press this button and so forth. But but we're increasing every year, the amount of information we're not storing in our minds in our brains that we're storing out on the web, out on the cloud. And as you said when it goes down, which a good example was, you know, the Fukushima earthquake in Japan in 2011. Um, it sounds like you might might have been listening to my show recently, E I had I had, um, Dr David or Dr Charles Castro on, and that's actually the one that he was out doing inversion. So I just think that that you're mentioning it was interesting. Yeah, but But you jump to your you jump to your newest book, the one that you're writing. We skipped entirely over school of errors. I mean, there's so so much stuff to talk about. So let me kind of jump in and talk about a lot of the things that you have going on because I wanna have understanding of it. So you have the safety, doc. That's one of the one of the components of what you have. And then what? I I'm find the tagline interesting. I want to understand it. Dr. David Prodan, America's top safety show. Tell me how you came about with this, right? So now, now, did somebody else give you this? Or did you? Is this a self imposed? I'll take it whichever way you give it to me. It was actually my my website designer a few years now. There are so many outstanding, you know, safety professional. Let me. Including you, J, right? I mean, there's when you get into the community, you know, to to make a claim that you have the best safety show, I would say in the realm of school and community safety, Um, yeah. You know, uh, you know, my my work, you know, certainly certainly has a strong footing in those areas. So So yeah, I guess this faras top Maybe I have the best, uh, the best intro in the kind of the best. Uh, audio or something like that. But But I've done 153 shows and most of those air interviews. I always produce everything in video audio, and then do a 5000 character blawg Post, which takes, maybe, like, 34 minutes to read. So I've, you know, if someone somebody actually contacted me and said I found your show, I'm a safety x a school safety, um, supervisor in California and I have listened to all of your shows. It took me eight days. I'm like, wow, like, eight days. You'll never get back. But but but no. I mean, I appreciate it, and they would point things out, and then they would ask follow up questions of when you interviewed this person or that, um, you know, a rescue If a student with autism, for example, wandered from a school and you needed to bring in additional resource is you know, I brought up questions like at what point would you, as an administrator say we were not going to allow a neighbor with a drone to come on scene and try to participate in this rescue quote unquote because they're not part of our system? per our our handbook or our our guidelines for how we would conduct a search and rescue of a student wander from the school. So these are the questions that people need to think about. And they do like their Like we never thought about that. We've modified, um, our practices because of what you shared. So it's amazing to be contacted, you know, by people all over the world. And when they find the content, it seems to definitely of parts that they'll be like, I went through this or I had this question. I interviewed a man, David Hyde, blind from birth, and he worked at a prison. And, um, he talked about how, when they had fire drills, he needed to lift his guide dog up a ladder and out onto a roof, and then they would be, um, somehow from there, they would get out to a perimeter. But I mean, this was an amazing story, right? I mean, so I I think I have been able to have access to people very unique stories. I interviewed a crab boat, Um, a crab boat deckhand. Who? That was a pretty recent episode. It waas and I'm talking with him. He There's a chapter in my current book where he's going to contribute to that. We've done a few interviews. Um, so this is, you know, this is the part of school and community safety where I was really heavy into school safety and still that I mean, very, very, um, committed to that. But I got better when I started to look at other industries of safety and people who have been through other safety experiences. So we talked about the crab boat, um, worker. He was on a crab boat for 122 days. And I'm asking him, you know, how was that? Like he's like, every moment was terrifying, you know, like a 60 ft swell would hit the boat. Um, these refrigerator sized chunks of ice would fly over the deck. And if you're dead, right, I mean, it's the number one most deadliest job for the Bureau of Labor Statistics. So So I'm asking, like, how did you stay safe? And he said, It's really the skipper. I mean, they're the skipper has to be watching what's going on. They would sound a horn. You'd have, like, six seconds to respond, like to secure yourself onto something and all this stuff. So there's also a new, interesting way to look at that. Like, right now you know who's the skipper for kids, Um, in school. Or like if they're in a home environment being educated, who's the one looking out for them? Eso You know, there's so much that you can learn from other people, E. J. I mean, it was funny when I did my did my dissertation at UW Madison and I studied high stakes decision making in the military, in health care and in schools and my advisor. We were sitting down and having a conversation, and I'm going through my big toe list of citations, which is part of a dissertation. You have all these people that you experts in different areas that you're referencing, and you looked at me. He said, Well, this person is still alive, like why don't you just call them and ask them to clarify what they meant by this study? It was the first time I I sat there and like well, yeah, eso it was. I started to reach out to people, you know, different universities, different whatever and they were thrilled. When I wrote school of heirs, I reached out to Dr Paul Rap, head of military medicine. I mean, just an amazing, um, career, and he still is working. I mean, Paul, I watched Paul on PBS a Nova special about chaos when I was in high school. And, you know, he's a Paul is incredible. And I reached out and, you know, a day later he responds. And you know, Paul Paul had a significant influence on And you know what I wrote in school affairs. So another part of safety I learned is find the people who do safety, You know, if you're interested, you read, you see somebody on TV, you know, they're real people, right? Jay? I mean, go out and email them, call them in. A lot of times, they're gonna be excited that someone is interested, you know? Yeah. Funny that you mentioned that because I've actually come to that realization. I've done a lot of investigation stuff related Thio how the Department of Energy came up with human and organizational performance, and I went and looked for the original founders of actually who came up with some of the concepts, and they were so excited to talk to people about coming up with those concepts. E I don't know if I was mortgage e on the phone. Then they were because it was this kind of weird. I was like, You should be excited about talking to me. I'm excited about talking to you, but at least that was my concept. So let me ask the question then. So as you're doing your dissertation and you decide to make that one phone call is this What kind of gives you the catalyst to move forward of doing your podcast? Is this where you say Okay, this could be something that I could that I could actually put in a tangible format that other people might wanna listen. Thio. Yeah, Well, Jay, that's a That's a great question. So, you know. So how did the podcast get started? Um, I I began doing, um, expert witness work legal work. After 2013, I was on, um, PBS. I had a 78 minute special on PBS following the sandy hook. Um, you know, school shooting in December of 2012. So it was May then of the following year 2013. Isn't that Isn't that strange? We're looking back that it's already been nine years. It doesn't seem like that long ago in my brain. I know. I know. I I agree. And, you know, and also I know many of the families from, um you know, Sandy. Okay. And from Parkland and Columbine, very close. I mean, you know, I have numbers in my phone, you know, cell phone numbers, families that I continue thio talk with continue to be informed way all want to make sure that our family is protected in medical emergencies. What many of us don't realize is that health insurance won't always cover the full amount of an emergency medical flight. Even with comprehensive coverage, you could get hit with high deductibles and copays. That's why on air Medicare, network membership is so important as a member. If in emergency arises, you won't see a bill for air medical transport went flown by an A M. C n provider. Best of all, a membership covers your entire household for his little as $85. Ah, year am CNN providers are called upon to transport nearly 100,000 patients a year. This is coverage. No family should go without. Now, As a J. Allen show listener, you'll get up to a $50 gift card with a new membership. Simply visit Air Med care network dot com slash safety and use the offer code safety. And don't forget to tell them that J. Allen sent you on. We are back on the Jalen Show. You decided to drop Episode 1 21 which you have a title. This coronavirus versus 9. 11. What we got right in 2000 and one on one. And what we got wrong in 2020. Are we talking in timeline here? Are we talking a little bit for a little bit after, right? I remember when I did that episode. So with 9. 11, I understood 9 11 from, um, different angles than the general public, because when I wrote School of Ares, I contacted New York City and asked if I could work with their Department of City planning to get information to inform the book, which I thought what they would say. No, I'm like, you know what's going? You know, I had to fill out this big form and all of this and and it said, like when you need this by it as like, a soon as possible in like, three days later, they contact me and said, Yeah, we'll work with you on this, which blew me out of the water like I'm like, I can't believe it. So they had one person assigned to me. I gave her credit, you Voeckler Gene in in the book and she was finding all of these things that I wanted. Um, so one of the one of the things that really stood out with 9 11 was immediate communication, right? Rudy Giuliani? Um, you know, City officials re initially saying, Here's what we know Just, you know, a couple hours after the first attack is it progressed throughout the day on September 11th, and then they did a great job of saying of recapping what they had said earlier. And from a communications standpoint, it was very, very clear and redundant. Um, but not overwhelming, like, you know, these concise, scheduled press conferences. We didn't see that at all. With Cove it it was we didn't see that type of coordinated effort. I mean, we did see like some white house, you know, press conferences and things like that. But, um, it didn't all have the coordinated immediate, um, rollout that was observed on September 11th. So And I think, and I think that was a huge e guess. A huge lost opportunity for how the country could have been informed about what was happening with coronavirus. Um, also what people you know could have done personally to position themselves in the best, um, you know, places that they could be. But, um, but yeah, it's amazing how efficient the 9 11 communication, Um waas. And that's pretty well documented in in some areas to If you go back and run the timelines of how the first and what was running, you know which trains were running, which wasn't what had power, what didn't. And, um, it just was really, really well done. Yeah, I have to tell you, you magnificently avoided my question. You know that, right? Because when was the timeline on when you release the episode? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Did I release that episode because it says that it was roughly around the 11th of March. So had you already done all this searching of when you went out and did the different things with your daughter and checking the schools and the different environment. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I mean, I I appreciate the information about the study, but I'm just trying to figure out timeline wise. We did, Um, we had some going back and looking at the timeline of my 13 videos. I had two videos done at that time. Now, these aren't public videos. These information check videos because I knew that I would be using these later, um, toe harvest from them as I assembled the book that I'm writing right now. Um, so yeah. So, yeah, I had two videos completed at that time, and I started right away at, you know, the right away. The first week of March, I started to carefully observe what was happening on the news and also, you know, assembling my member check. So what? I was watching our local news out of Madison, Wisconsin, You know, a a substantial, um, you know, media center. You know, they were behind. They were behind one week from what the feds were saying, and it was also weird because, like our state had closed a lot of stuff down yet the commercials would still be on TV. If, like, you know, come to this event at, you know, the overture Center, or whatever it would be like that's been closed down three days. I mean, um, so So you could also see this This this leg, this disconnect. Um, So when I'm out there sampling and also sampling, I'm watching what's happening on TV. I'm listening to what's happening on the radio, what's being conveyed out for information and that it took, um, I think also with with 9 11, we had a very close, um, timeframe where local information and federal information was aligned. I mean, pretty much there wasn't a gap like it didn't take a week later for kind of your local news to tell you you know what was happening? I mean, um, so, yeah, this this weird, this weird gap. Local news reporters and I talked to a few, and they're like we didn't know what a ventilator was. We didn't know. I mean, we didn't know what to present. They're not. They weren't interviewing teachers. Even those schools were closed because they didn't know What questions Really to ask, Like, how long is this going to last? What do you do now? And, um So So, yeah, I had conducted a few of those and then right away, I could see, like, wow the way that this is being There's nobody in charge of communication J. So it's just it's a scatter of communication. My current book, The Velocity of Information Velocity is speed in the direction. So with coronavirus, we had a lot of information just, like launched into the air without any velocity. It was just there. And if it if it hit you, it did. But it was just to get it out there where 9 11 had velocity to it. It was very direct, you know, to the people in whether it be New York or whether it be people in other states or people using airlines and things, I guess very direct, very fast that it wasn't that way. It all with co vid, you know, you still didn't answer my question, but that's fine. I'll run with So what? I mean, I'm just trying to figure out timeline because I know that a lot of us kind of went out with the information early. So that's the only reason I'm trying to figure it out. Do you figure that you were doing the comparisons to Early into what was going on? You could say No, you could say yes. You just tell me you don't want to answer the question. And I'm cool with that. I'm not gonna pound you to death in regard to trying to get the answer. I'm trying to go back into forensically and to look at when I was getting information from from different people. Um, I will say, Like I I mean, I didn't know exactly. I don't think anyone I anticipate. I thought with Disney, for example, up until, like a week before, I think we're supposed to leave, like the 17th or something of march for Disney. I thought we would still be able to go on, and I had some contingencies. Okay, who do we know? Who's down there who has a vehicle that we could borrow if we had to get back or something? But I didn't see all the shutting down. And I had a friend in the intelligence community, um, overseas, and I was talking with him daily. And I said, What do you see? Like, do you think this is? And he's like, Yeah, I I don't think it's going to get to this level in the United States and suddenly it did. So the people I was talking with, I e think again. It was very unclear for the member checks, um, of what was happening, like my member check that that worked. End of February um, in Pittsburgh, University of Pittsburgh Medical said, We're starting Thio acquire much more space for patients. You know, like we're clearing out buildings that are ancillary next to us, stuff like that. And so that was the information I was I was getting from him. But then they didn't have more patients, but he was getting these requests, like need to get every iPad, every smart device, every tablet, whatever, because we're going to ramp up telemedicine. So, like, you know, telemedicine explodes by, like, 10 times in a week where he's at. Um so So, yeah, I guess it it's, you know, a lot of those videos to K. Those were the first live stream videos I did ever. Usually, I would, I would put together show notes I would record a show. I would edit a show and then I'd released a show and I was getting so much contact from my member checks, and just people in general would call me up because I know, you know, in the safety, right? And they'd say, like, what's going on? What's going on? And so, yeah, those were actually the first live streams where I had an audience. So I'm also responding to people in their questions during those, um, so that those were successful. But it was also Yeah, I knew a new way for me to interact with my, um I guess followers in my safety audience. Um, so I was trying to be as real as I could, And I did have some information about the schools closing down in my state ahead of everybody else. Um, so I was, you know, it was kind of functioning with a little bit of insider, you know, information, right, and and and and of course, that's what people are we're looking for at the time, and I still still this day, they're probably still looking for it. If you have something that is not public knowledge that you might be. It was just I have a question. If people want to Nome or information about your work and they find out Yeah. Um, safety ph d dot com is my website and every block post I've ever made his son on the site. And it does link out then to my YouTube, um, channel and pot being, ah, few of my articles. But yeah, if they go there, they they will also to find the link to school of airs, Um, rethinking School Safety in America, which was released in August of 2019. Um, you can, uh, obviously like Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I mean, I think I tell people, Where can you get it? Like places itself? Books is not that hard to get. It's not like although it's banned in Germany, it is not allowed in Germany. Um, and I think there are some. There's one chapter. Specifically, it's nothing to do Germany, but has to with policy. Well, David, I appreciate you coming on to the chair J. It is. It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much. Love your show. Love your guest. Thank you for your work and safety. Well, this is gonna bring another episode of the J. Allen show to an end. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Dr David Prodan as much as I did. Anyways, if you want to find out more information of what we have going on, go to safety FM dot com. Of course, you could always gather more information about what's going on inside of the radio station, the podcast network and the multitude of shows that we have available. Thank you for always being the best part of safety FM, and that is the listener. Safety FM is the home of riel safety talk. Without you, we can't do what we do here, Thank you and move forward. We'll be back with another episode of the J. Allen show before too long. Goodbye for now. I'll see you real soon. Want more of the J. Allen show? Go to safety FM dot com.

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[00:31:58] spk_0: Jay Allen