Safety Professional are Letting Us Down with COVID-19 Protocols
Safety Consultant with Sheldon Primus
Safety Professional are Letting Us Down with COVID-19 Protocols
October 20, 2021
Sheldon's special guest this week is Jay Allen of the Jay Allen Show and Safety FM.. Jay and Sheldon speak a lot about how safety officers are ruining the field by playing politics regarding SARS-CoV-2 Virus and COVID-19 vaccines. Wheter you are a "vaxer" or "anti-vaxer", this episode will get you thinking and talking.
Keywords: OSHA, Safety, Jay Allen, Sheldon Primus, COSS, COVID-19, ETS, Emergency Temporary Standard, Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Vaccine, Anti-vaccine, mask, anti-mask, EHS, Safety FM, America, Hospitals, Hazard, Control, UVC lights, wastewater, Florida

[00:00:02] spk_2: this episode is

[00:00:03] spk_1: powered by

[00:00:05] spk_2: safety FM.

[00:00:10] spk_1: Welcome to the safety consultant podcast. I am your host, Sheldon promise this is to show where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. Welcome.

[00:00:24] spk_2: What

[00:00:26] spk_1: I got this week is something a little bit different. I'm gonna warn you already. This episode will contain swear words. So I'm just letting you know from time to time I do release the monster within. So maybe jim puzzle keeps saying I'm the most relaxed man ever. And I tell them, you know, Valium runs through my blood just jokingly. But it's really, I get triggered on some stuff and this is one of the things that I do get triggered on. And that is our response to the SARS co coronavirus

[00:01:09] spk_0: too.

[00:01:12] spk_1: And now the COVID-19 vaccines. So as the safety community is, we're just kind of topsy turvy with this. It's become political. You just, you know, you don't want to mention the words vaccine or Covid or anything like that. Just like you wouldn't say politics or religion or something. It's become that. And then to boot, you can't have a conversation. Uh, one way to the next without people getting so butt hurt that, you know, you're losing friendships for it. Uh, both sides are guilty. I had my own bouts. So I'm not, there weren't any stones in any way. But uh, we, and when I say we, it's me and my special guest today and other than J allen of safety F. M DR J Allen and I, we go back now a few years and uh, we, we seem to talk frankly with each other and this is one of those frank conversations that we have regarding the response that we've been having as a safety community and how disjointed it has been. And we haven't been the leaders we should be regarding this really, really, really, really important situation. So is such like a tunnel topic that not everybody wants to talk about. So we decided we'll take it on and you know, when we and get together, as you can hear in many of our past episodes, we get kind of revel it wherever it yeah, that's probably the best way to say it, but there is some good underneath everything. Right? So we also talk about virtual events during this time. What do you think it looks like? What should it look like? And what's the fair thing to do? And even some entities who are trying to make virtual events where even you yourself or like avatars or sims instead of truly embracing the virtual nature and expanding the things you can do because your virtual, So that's one of the things that we really were going over some of the things we're going over. But he even laid down the gauntlet and tell me, hey, if you want change so much, why don't you facilitate it? And then later on, before the interview ends, he asked me about my big announcement that I wanted to do and the big announcement Brooklyn Brain for a second and I did not want to admit it. But since you're listening to this episode right now, you already know a little bit of what that big announcement was. I am moving to dystopia dot

[00:04:00] spk_2: com. I

[00:04:02] spk_1: was actually thinking there is four are actually two students that I ask them some questions this week. Well when I finished up my class on monday and getting their perspective on safety right now and I was like like that student perspective, I wonder if I could get one from J two as industry, you know, pro and also not only are you industry pro, but you have the unique ability of seeing so many different people and then having to deal with them. You might have a good understanding of some of these things as well. I'm just saying.

[00:04:37] spk_0: Well I mean I don't know if I have a good understanding of it, I can tell you what I what I see across the board. Uh it's it's interesting that we're still stuck two years ago, I guess that's really what I see a lot of as of late and what do I mean by that? Well we all had like this this whole thing that we had planned out on how the world was going to continue turning and all that. And then there was this little thing that occurred that was known as the pandemic and people did not know how to alter what they were doing from normal work to digital and when the digital portion kicked in, it's almost like all safety programs for the most part on what I'm seeing across the board, uh, went out the window and we forgot how to do safety. It became Now all of a sudden only about PP and don't get me wrong, I'm not saying PP is not part of safety, but all of a sudden it was the cleaners we could use. It is the whole aspect of what mask you have. Uh, if it's a cloth mask, if it's a, if it's a gator, you know, all this kind of fun stuff where it changes on what are the fundamental basis of what you were doing before. And I think that it just threw everything for a loop until this day. I still talk to people that, are you asking me the question of, do I have the right mask inside of my organization and I'm just like two years and you should probably have a good idea of what mask you have. Uh The other portion is, you can potty train a kid normally in about two years. I'm just saying you really should be about nine months without the other story. But that's, that's something that kind of drives me crazy and then I still take a look around about this whole thing Where people are still talking about Dr 20 and for some reason that bothers me still because I just don't get it? I don't get it. I mean I understand of yes, if you called it drive to 10, we only want to kill 10 people this year. Yes, that's gonna be an issue. But probably probably not as good as a slogan. But what do you do when it fails? What do you do when you have your first incident? And people are now coming back of uh let's start talking about Dr. It's not drive to zero. Its drive to not let's report anything. That's what it's gonna do. That's what it turns into. And a lot of people keep on going back and forth of, well, what do we need to do now? Because we're in the pandemic. I'm going to tell you, we talked to epidemiologists all the time and they're still saying it's probably gonna be another year to year and a half before we start kind of seeing some of the things normalized. And I look at a lot of things and I mean, we can go controversial subject because it's easy, it's easy to do about the vaccine. It's like should we be talking about booster shots when there's portions of the world that haven't even received the first round. It's an interesting time.

[00:07:18] spk_1: It is. And actually that was one of the things that came out of the questions I asked the students. One of the first thing was I asked one of the first things, but one of the topics was, what is your number one struggle and that number one struggle had to do with Covid compliance. And it was on OSHA side. And then on the local government side. And then when you're on calle to these students were from cal OSHA and they're like really tough. So it seems to me that the business right now we're in some sort of tail spin if you will. And it is almost like a pin pointed to our reaction to Covid 19 and then the reaction to officials that are supposed to give us rules and laws on this. That is, is really what I'm seeing and what these students were saying has, has just challenged, you know, the safety community,

[00:08:15] spk_0: Why do you want to chuckle? Because we can chuckle about something together And I'm not trying to come to your show and start controversial subjects. But I just think these people, I mean, here's the thing. People sit around and go, we know we know that federal law override state law. That's kind of something that you normally hear. But let's go into the 10th amendment. Uh, the power's not not delegated to the United States by the constitution nor prohibited by its to the states are reserved to the States, respectively, or the people or the people. So the state, because let's just kind of go back for a second. How can cow OSHA have a stricter thing than federal OSHA because of the state. And there's still a lot of confusion about that. And listen, we, you and I currently live in a state that's pretty interesting on how it's kind of, it's a free throw in. That's good for some bad for another, depending on what side of the aisle you want to stand on. But it's an interesting thing on how it varies so much state to state on what exactly is going on. And people go, well, this whole covid thing is really more of a federal subject. It's a controversial subject. I will tell you. Um, I get have the opportunity of hanging out with other people where we're able to talk about things, but we do not talk about pandemic and we do not talk about covid in presentations. And the reason behind it is because it's right, well, it starts up a lot of emotions, number one. And if you want to lose whatever your main theme is, talk about one of those subjects, it will change everything. I mean, I'll tell you right now, there's probably people going, what the hell is the people talking about taking a lot of your phone or whatever device because this is one of those subjects where if I tell you, okay, um, I took the horse medicine, what did this guy just say? I'm not saying that that's what I actually did, but if I say, hey, I took the shot Now I'm looking at people are looking at me in a different lion. If I say, hey, I didn't take the shot. Now I'm being looked at it a different right? It's just amazing to me on how the whole thing works.

[00:10:21] spk_1: Yeah. And for for us in, you know, me and a lot of the people who are listening to the podcast or either working their way into being coming safety consultants or they're trying to, you know, just do the best we can and answering these questions when you know, one state says, the governor says, all right, we're gonna do a mass mandate and then underneath them in the local communities and you're going into the stores or you're trying to do a walkthrough at a facility and do your Mac OSHA audit and you have your protection and no one else does like what is going on? Why are we not getting this thing together?

[00:11:01] spk_0: So what do you do? Well, I mean, here's, here's the thing. The only thing that you can do is go based on what works best for you and what you have going on. And I say this all the time to the people that want to listen to my, my jibber jabber because you have to do what is correct for you. So if you think that the right thing to do is to go get the shot, go get the shot. If you think the right thing to do is wear a mask all the time, regardless of you having a shot, do that. You can only go by setting the example, hey, some people are gonna think that you might be off your rocker, but you need to do what you think is going to be best inside of what you want going on and inside of your organization. If you want people to follow along and doing exactly what you're doing, if you say, hey, go get the shot and don't and don't wear a mask, well that's what, that's your proactive. But if, if you want people to wear a mask, you're gonna have to, where were you? So that's just kind of the way that it works out and we can argue about mask and shots all day long. It's all about perspective. Now I will tell you that a lot of the issues that I still see that are going on out there is that I don't think my job should force me to actually get a vaccine.

[00:12:07] spk_1: That was my next question. Well, not, not question, but just the thought because with the vaccine mandates especially coming from OSHA, Um, and OSHA only covers, you know, for entities, but uh, it's enough of the workforce that if the job now. Um, and if they're being encouraged to, to say either you're getting a vaccine or you gonna be tested weekly. So now you've got those choices. So uh, in OSHA compliance world, we end up going to end up having to mandate those things and how we're going to step over HR we're gonna step into legal and all that. So it is a concern.

[00:12:45] spk_0: But, but here's the thing, if you opt not to get the shot, number one, you're gonna have to describe that to, to your, to your employer. This is really what it boils down to because you're not providing a card. That's number one. And then number two, then all of a sudden they say you have to take weekly testing or however, frequency testing, that's something else that you're gonna have to do by turning that in until you decide to do X. Is that the correct thing? I don't know. That's the determination that you're going to have to make as an organization and as a person on what you want to do because I'll tell you, I was reading a news article a few days ago where a gentleman was going to school virtually, he decided to go to school virtually everything was fantastic. Now part of the requirement from the school was for everybody that attends the school, virtual or non virtual, they have to be vaccinated. Now this is college. We're not talking about elementary school or high school or junior high, the gentleman opted not to get vaccinated. He got unenrolled from school because he was not vaccinated for going virtually, which I don't understand. I mean if you're never making an appearance on the campus, it's kind of a, it's a difficult thing because you're not there. And listen, I'm not pro vaccine. I'm not anti vaccine. I I will continue to say until I'm blue in the face that it's a I think it should be a personal choice and what you want to do. But to be unenrolled from school from attending virtually, I don't get it.

[00:14:08] spk_1: Yeah. And I don't either. And I'm actually on a more controversial side. So for those of you that I did not know, I I've always been outspoken a little bit, I should say. I should say always but more outspoken about me personally what I think, but in this area I have a strong feeling because I do believe that it's a social justice if you will. And even a social injustice if you don't get your mask, you know. Uh, so I am really, really trying to figure that out personally because I don't want someone to to go ahead and tell me what to do, right? Like we're all geared against doing that. But if the epidemiologists are right and then we are truly going to pass on, you know, based symptomatically a disease that could end up branching off and branching off and we don't know it, then the controls itself is not just for you. It's for everyone else. And that control could be in the form of the vaccine. But that's that's my other thought. I'm still wrestling with that one.

[00:15:23] spk_0: Well, I mean, I don't think that it's that it's hurtful That if you're vaccinated and you want to wear a mask around other people, I think it's fine. If it's going to make other people feel comfortable, is it justifiable to do no, you can have a whole other discussion about that. But if I'm running to the grocery store using this as an example and I'm gonna be in there 2030 minutes, it is not going to hurt me to wear a mask. That is um, my opinion now, of course you are entitled to your own opinion. And the people listening to what we have going on are entitled to theirs. And I think that's the great thing about it. Now. The other portion that we can talk about as well is people that are saying, well you need to be vaccinated. Well, I think for certain scenarios you do because let's think about it or for Children that go to school, part of them to be able to attend school is they have to be vaccinated. So there is certain things and there's certain there's certain studies that have been proved. So that's that's fine. So I think that those things kind of play a factor to what's going on. And if you don't want your child to be vaccinated, don't send them to school. If that's part of the requirement inside of the district that you're going to send them to public school do virtual school. There's other options that are available and yes, I know that there's people that are out there that are working and go well I can't do that because I have to go to work. So that's where you have to make accommodations. I've heard of people doing like small hubs where it's like one parent will have them not meeting the individual parent but like a group of friends might carry them and then kind of go from from space to space. But there's so many different things that you can do. But this is where a controversial subject will continue to go on until something is done. And the funny part is that if we start going into the politics inside of the whole thing. Uh well this is you know really heavily democrat or whatever you have to continue to go back to when donald trump was actually back in office and I'm really not trying to throw your conversation off, I'm just trying to to put it in. But it's but it was worth the operation warp speed and it was something that he had announced when he was the president and nothing wrong against it. I'm just saying it was something that was done and he encouraged people at the time to actually get the vaccine at the same time and then he ended up getting it. So I mean I don't think there's anything wrong but it becomes like for some reason this has become politicized on how some of the stuff works and it's, it's very weird to me still on how people go well if your democratic you should take the vaccine. If you are a Republican you should then not take it. And I'm just like how this ends up going like this.

[00:17:52] spk_1: Yeah. Well it's a long, long story of how that ended up like that. And you know me, I'm triggered by that truly in some cases. But uh, I honestly believe that it is national or just a natural consequences for both choices. So if you choose not to get the vaccine then the natural consequences you're going to submit to testing weekly. And in that case I believe that is still up. The employer in ocean. Always maintain that the employer has the responsibility for the employee's health. And if this is now a disease that according to what the epidemiologists are telling us is airborne. And if the controls are going to be a, you need to do this, follow the controls and then the natural consequence will lead both ways. So let's say the vaccine now you get vaccinated, You get sick. Of course appia, OSHA. Recordable. No, she took care of that. They made that an exemption. Uh, so I'm still trying to figure out when the vaccine ruling start really coming down with the newt Emergency temporary standard. That's probably going to be out within a week or two at the time of this recording is going to be October 14 for those of you listening. So within a week or two and that's year 2021 because

[00:19:14] spk_0: just because you never know,

[00:19:16] spk_1: you never know right? So that temporary standard is coming in, oh she's there already pushing this one through. So a lot of the safety people are going to be forced with trying to deal with this on a level that we may not truly understand. And I kind of like the way you said uh you know, almost like going back to basics, what are we looking to control? How are we looking to protect our people?

[00:19:40] spk_0: Well, I mean that's the other portion that you're bringing up and I just kind of want to backtrack on something that you were just saying right, there were only as good as the data that's being provided and the way that modeling works and I'm not talking about like fashion modeling, so let me make sure that I'm clear, but the way that modeling works is that you build models based on the data that you have and then based on how good the information is, you have to change portions of it. So when a lot of this stuff was brought up originally about 2 to 2 years ago, it was this is what we need to do, but that was based on the data that we had at the time. So those things are ever changing. If they don't change, then we become stagnant. And I mean, what was I looking at? I think today I was reading an article where There's already been 770,000 deaths attributed to COVID, Which is a terrible story. I mean think about the impact that one person has. So imagine 770,000 now we're wiping out towns, maybe even a small city if you really give it some thought there. But here's the thing when it's all said and done, you have to look at it where the data will always be changing. So this recording today could be one thing, but in two weeks it could be the data could be entirely different. Where Oh no, stop taking the vaccine or it could be, everybody needs to run out there right now and get it. But when it's all said and done safety on the side that we're talking about is where the organization has to adapt on whatever the standard the standard and the data is. So it's kind of to say what the future is. I would love to be able to have a crystal ball and say, okay, this is what the future needs to look like. And then we're going back to basics and that's gonna help everything. I don't know. That's the uncertainty that's out there right now is the thing that amazes me the most Do we go back to where we were end of 29, end of 2019 and forget getting into 2020 and the things that have happened there and just pretend like nothing happened. I don't know. I don't really know.

[00:21:33] spk_1: Well I think the whole basic premise of what we're doing with our dealing with as a society right now is that we can get through this and then it's going to get managed. Like if you would manage some of the other, um, other diseases we have that we created a vaccine for uh, my contention is that hypothesis may be wrong in itself. I believe that this and again, I don't know. I don't have any any true schooling on this, But I've been around the field enough where I've been doing pandemic plans and then since the 90s when I was working with with utilities. So I

[00:22:15] spk_0: know you've been working since the night. Now

[00:22:18] spk_1: look at these crazy brother. You know, it's been a while, but I believe that this is probably going to be uh, the first of these type of uh, airborne diseases. So I honestly think our premise is wrong, we shouldn't be thinking of how to get back to 2019. We should be thinking of how to prepare for the next one. So in this case the vaccine, everything else that we're doing for engineering controls. This is this is the warm up. This is the practice session in my opinion. I believe that there is going to be other things coming in that if we don't get our shit straight here. It's kind of fee if it's gonna be rough and and that's where I'm you can think of this conversation. That's why I talked to the students like All right, let's have this conversation and then can we even see? Well, I don't know. I don't want to, I don't want to make this more contentious than not.

[00:23:16] spk_0: But we're already we're already here. The they're the people that want to hear it are here. The people that they've already they've already gone. They already went, bye bye. So don't worry about that portion.

[00:23:26] spk_1: Yeah. First five Minister gone people, they're they're they're they're in. And actually I was going to ask more questions. But what you're going with here and what we're talking about, I honestly believe that safety needs to talk about this stuff without the anc's behind it. We used to be able as an industry and this is everyone. But I'm only talking about this industry. We used to be able to have different opinions like everyone else, but still objectively look at hazard controls, exposure control and we are not doing that anymore. So that is what's frustrating to me is I am seeing quality safety professionals on both sides of the fence that are telling me, you know, don't get vaccinated, get vaccinated, don't wear a mask, wear a mask. So that's telling me we are not identifying this hazard enough on a common level. There is no common level for this and then attacking it as an industry as opposed to attacking it by individual philosophies.

[00:24:34] spk_0: That yeah, that makes sense. But here's the thing, I think that for some reason because of us being in lockdown for a period of time because we all work to some extent unless we were considered doing essential work where all of a sudden the discussion of being able to disagree on something kind of went out the window. Like if you have an opinion and it doesn't align with mine, you can no longer be friends. You can no longer communicate. I mean, I will tell you, I know of more people that remove themselves from facebook and other end people that they knew because they didn't align with either political views, views about the pandemic views about safety. And it's amazing to me and it's amazing to me that we're almost two years into this thing and still people are having that that same problem. And I'm not saying that we've become weak minded, but it's weird that if you don't align with my view, we can talk. When did we stop being able to have discussions? Because listen, there's stuff that you do that, I don't agree with and that's my opinion and I'm sure I'm sure that on the other side of the house, it's the exact same thing. I'm and and that's perfectly fine with me. But the problem that we run into is that people go crazy about this stuff like oh no if we're going to talk or agree or be associated we have to agree with every single thing. I mean the next thing that I know I'm gonna have to be sharing my sex life to make sure that everything I do there is perfectly aligned with what somebody else is doing. Yeah and yeah I don't agree with that. You should say no to that.

[00:26:09] spk_1: Hold on. Enquiring minds when I know it's not that

[00:26:13] spk_0: I

[00:26:14] spk_1: know I honestly believe in that and truly even to this day I have people who I considered friends that are not talking to me because of political things. And uh in both ways everyone listening to this you probably have gone through that and I know during the time period when political stuff in the U. S. Was going I'm not too sure about everyone's country listening but in the U. S. As you could see the last year, year and a half with a with an election was really really big for us. So in that mindset I always thought well if I unfriend somebody it is an unfriending from this platform not from my life meaning this platform. I just don't want to be on this platform and see the things posting. But I've got you on linkedin I've got you on instagram I've got you other places those platforms are good. That was my thinking but man people went off.

[00:27:09] spk_0: I mean the interesting part is that I have grown up in 100 different places because my parents being in the military, so I have friends that are either extreme left or extreme right, not a lot of people that kind of go down the middle. Um, and they posed to what they believe and that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to unfriend you doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with your perspective and I'm probably not going to comment on what you have to say. I mean I might poke the bear every once in a while, but I'm not gonna go out there and be like, oh no, you are totally wrong. Hey, listen, facebook, I look at it is, it's not a platform for you to actually go post what you know, your deepest dark secrets even though some people like to do that. Um, and I look at it from the standpoint of, hey, it's a community where people want to share information and if that's what you're interested in sharing, go right ahead doesn't mean because we're friends or not friends that I agree or disagree with what you have saying, I'm not saying that everybody needs to go down the middle, but the level of craziness that you see on some of these social media platforms because you don't agree with what I had to say. I had a friend recently, um that he posted something. One of my former bosses disagreed with him. So automatically this guy removed the former boss because I'm going to take care of this problem now. And this is like, it doesn't need to be that extreme because you don't agree with something, this person didn't agree. What would you have to say? It's just ridiculous. But whatever.

[00:28:28] spk_1: Well, that's, you know what our conversation has evolved to. It's just really trying to get like a trying to get like a nice little feeling of what are touch points for the industry right now. And that was like one of the first things to students brought up was they didn't know how to comply with any standards, local or federal or state. So the the idea also should be for us in the safety profession, we need to have the open discord and conversation from those who are vaccinated and believe in vaccines and those who are not and don't believe in it, we need to come together now because I honestly believe, like I just said, this is the first of many, only because of, you know, just something, some signs that I'm I'm putting together my own brain and I'm gonna have to vet before I say, But it's really, I think, uh, having everyone together and just yes event if you need to, but with an open mind that we as a community and safety, we're going to have to not only get our act together and dare I say, get our shit together. Uh but uh we're going to have to get this coordinated information out to, you know, all the the alphabet soup of of different outlets that are spreading the word so that we could say alright as professionals to protect safety and health. We're going to use the information we're getting from my h we're going to use the information getting from epidemiologists. We're gonna grab that and we're gonna put our our costs and costumes and CSP S and C. I. H. S and all that together. Right? All the alphabet soup we have. Why can't we facilitate that or why can't somebody? Yeah, I'll say let's do this thing, Let's talk about this. Let's get

[00:30:15] spk_0: it out. There is a level of fear of if you say let's do this and it's actually not the correct path in the long run, you don't want to be the organization that was associated with the failure. I mean, I will tell you as of earlier this week, there was a pretty big convention that was taking place here locally. Well, they did not mandate for you to be vaccinated and they did, but they did mandate that you had to be tested. So if you were not vaccinated, number one, you have to have some kind of passport showing that you were vaccinated. If you wanted to attend. If not the testing had to show up and you had to take a covid test every 24 hours showing that you were negative and that's how they went about doing it and now, is that the wrong thing? I don't know. But who the hell wants to live at the doctor's office every 24 hours in regards of doing it. So there's, there's a number of things that are going out out there and I think it's amazing because you start off the question with you were having a conversation with the students and what I look at it at this is how it goes is imagine you're working for an organization that falls under federal regulation on certain aspect, but the owners do not believe on what the federal regulation is saying that needs to be done. The owners are the ones that hire you as a safety professional. What do you do then? How do you fight that? Because then it's paycheck versus regulation, which I mean, I think some of us at some point have actually stood there. But how do you do it as a new safety version? How does that actually work in that aspect?

[00:31:46] spk_1: Yeah. And truly I believe that, you know, the season people like you, you made a good distinction there. We would stand behind our our recommendations if it would. But this will also go in the same the same vein as you're about to do a permit required confined space entry and you don't have a working gas detector and they're like, we don't wanna have to go all the way back two hours to to pick up another one and or somewhere else. So therefore we're just gonna go ahead. It's only a little bit of time it takes and we're going to go in and out real quick. And you would hold your ground. Is the safety professionals saying, oh, hell now we are not going in this phase of until we get the proper controls. So that means first you believe that there is a hazard. And secondly, you believe it's your job to control the exposure. So now, if you put that into COVID-19 and those that are saying, you know, we don't need a mess, We don't need vaccine. Okay, what's your controls? So if you if they don't have controls, that means they don't believe the hazard. And that's that's the key. That's the crux the people. If you're not going to suggest controls, you don't believe the hazard. Why is that here in safety? Why can you not believe this hazard? And that's that's the part That is frustrating.

[00:33:07] spk_0: Well, I mean, that was a general question. I don't even know how to respond to that.

[00:33:11] spk_1: There's none of us. That's where we are. No one has to

[00:33:13] spk_0: respond to that. That's the thing. I mean, right now we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place and not trying to throw, you know, stupid nuances out there and just saying just stupid quotes, but think about it. There's a lot of things that are going on that are still the no no's and the known unknowns just to quote somebody else saying that. But that's, that's kind of where we're at. So it makes it very interesting on how do you move forward as an industry because I can't think of someone that I go okay, that company is doing it right where I could look at this company and say that they're doing it wrong because it varies so much depending on where you're at on what is going on. Because I can say what can occur inside of the state of florida can be entirely different than what's going on in Wyoming. Mhm

[00:33:57] spk_1: Probably not. But I know what you mean geographically. Yeah, I think that that hopefully and let's say it this way instead of I think hopefully at least this conversation can get people thinking and I really would like to put a call out there. If anyone on either side of the issue vaccinated, unvaccinated mask. No mask. And you could have an actual conversation without blowing up. I'll represent the other side and they'll be good. I don't mind because I am vaccinated and I wear my mask. So I

[00:34:34] spk_0: know you thought your home address. Is this what we're doing next. I

[00:34:37] spk_1: don't need the social alright, here's my pin, I

[00:34:42] spk_0: don't know anybody wants. You know, do I have the discussion here is my home address and come and meet me somewhere in the middle of florida.

[00:34:48] spk_1: That's right. Get some some coffee and let's do this. But truly what I'm trying to, the idea is if the invitation is an open and for this kind of, you know talk and if both parties are going to say all right, we will agree to some sort of decorum, it will never ever pass anything. And a meaning like like you're not going to progress in the topic in any way. So that's that's my my call out as uh just you know,

[00:35:20] spk_0: so I think that's why I think why we're here and because you like to do um the live sessions, why don't you make an event? Why don't you make an event where it's kind of open forum where it's an open discussion. But I mean I would imagine you would need to schedule it out, no pressure on on you whatsoever. You're not discuss this ahead of time. But why don't you do an open forum where you have a conversation with people about this?

[00:35:45] spk_1: Excellent. I am on it and I'm going to do a little shout out to uh the safety consultant community that we have in facebook if you guys who are listening want to be involved, it is safe at all. Facebook dot com backslash groups or forward slash right? I always say backsplashes.

[00:36:03] spk_0: I think you should know how to get to your own group you

[00:36:07] spk_1: before its last groups and it's G. R. O. U. P. S. And that's for it slash safety consultant. No s so that's how you're going to get to us answer to three questions. Especially the one that says abide by the group rules and nobody, it just drives me nuts. How can you not want to abide by group rules? But anyway why would I want to get to us? I'm going to post that question out there to see if anybody's willing and the reason why I'm going to do it in that group because I moderate that group with jay and Travis Costello with Costello's safety over in Houston but in that group over there then maybe we can at least open the discussion in a in a nice private forum because it

[00:36:52] spk_0: is a private do this do this, let's extend an arm here. Why don't you actually call out blake Anthony Grenier. Um He's part of the extreme safety professionals a group that's also on facebook, you know really put some pretty some pretty nice post out there and see if he'd be willing to actually do anything. Um And I'll even take it a step further. Uh

[00:37:14] spk_1: man look at those horns just all of a sudden appear

[00:37:17] spk_0: and ask the safety nights,

[00:37:19] spk_1: okay

[00:37:21] spk_0: see there you go. Thanks for the plug and I'm going thing.

[00:37:28] spk_1: Yeah that's awesome. That's great. I'm going to do that. That's a good follow up and I I do know a handful of other people that might be interested in representing, you know, just just, yes, it's an opposing side, but just another view. So I just want to really understand, can we come to a consensus of what would be a hazard?

[00:37:48] spk_0: All right. You can't do that. And that's the thing. It's not where it's like, oh, you're wrong. I'm right. I just want to see what people are saying. What is the conversation that's going on? Because I'll tell you when the Covid thing first started. I remember I was living on the radio and I mean we were doing live, live, live, live live the whole time. And I, I got to the point that I had to start asking people, it's like, is anybody else talking about anything besides Covid? Because I was living and breathing Covid in regards, I should probably say living and breathing covid because people might think that's the wrong way I was talking about that the whole time that I wasn't even sure if anybody else was having different conversations because that was, it was just 24 7 watching the news reporting back, finding our new streams. So it was, it was a very interesting thing. So I would like to hear what other people have to say. I would love to know what people are are out there going about and saying, okay, this is the group. And I'm not saying, hey, it has to be a group specific thing. So all of the people inside of this group believe this and this other group, I just want to know general consensus, but it's gotten to the point where it's that fear and shame game where if I say, hey, I don't agree with mask using that as an example all of a sudden nobody wants anything to do with me because I said that out loud in a public forum and it's like, why can't we just be honest on what our opinions are about things?

[00:39:08] spk_1: And that's the only way for any of this discussion because even like, like right now the International Organization for Standardization I, so they've got 45,000 and three and that is pretty much for helping people who have had a lot of Issues related to COVID-19 and it's helping, it's hurting them as far as their mental health. So there's some definitions and stuff out there that we could start gleaning, but it just should still boil down to hazard control and exposure

[00:39:44] spk_0: control. Yeah, but you need to be careful when you start mentioning about 45,003 and all that kind of stuff because people automatically think that they're either gurus in the space or experts and they want to come out of the woodwork on something that's still relatively new. Um, and saying how they already knew all about this. And it's just like it's still too new to be anybody to really be considered an expert in this. And don't sit back there and say, oh, I wrote the thing. I mean, let's just be realistic, one person did not write the thing. So, no, it's a committee,

[00:40:14] spk_1: Right? Yeah. But, uh, the heading is the whole thing. So everyone who is not familiar, uh, there's a 20, version of the ice. 045003. And the heading of it says occupational health and safety management, psychological health and safety at work, guidelines for managing psychological risk. So that is the title of that in itself. So they're acknowledging that there is some psychological effects from, from something. So if we could say that something is, you know, the, the effects of the disease. Covid 19. Now, COVID-19 then could earth SARS, uh, that now it could be identified as what we could say is the hazard that we're all looking at. So if we could say that is the hazard and all agree. Now that should be the basis of the conversation.

[00:41:12] spk_0: Hey, I just want to throw that out there for the people that are listening. He did type that up and he is reading off the screen. I don't want you to think that he had committed to memory. I'm

[00:41:22] spk_1: just a fast hyper,

[00:41:23] spk_0: we heard the keyboard. I just wanted to make sure that people knew exactly what they are

[00:41:27] spk_1: in a kidney is this past night. Hey al just to, to cleanse the palate real quick on, on this conversation, just so you know, we could, we could really start thinking what life beyond would be In your mindset would be like a perfect um, event that if you were to host an event in 2022 and you're thinking protocols, but yet enjoyment, what what would that look like?

[00:41:59] spk_0: If I'm thinking protocols and enjoyment, I would need to understand that a little bit better. What do you, what do you mean?

[00:42:05] spk_1: You know me with my, my, my hidden context. So when I mean enjoyment, I just mean, especially with people who are either physically going to be there or if it's a hybrid event, they still, if they're at home can feel like they're having fun playing whatever games or something that you may have at the event Or if it's all virtual, you know, then how are you going to engage to workers there? But or the attendees? So the idea is what, what does that look like in 2022?

[00:42:35] spk_0: Actually, here's the fun part, It's multi platform. It's, it's a hybrid event, but here's the way that I think that a good hybrid event would actually work currently is multiple sessions across multiple states at the same time. And let me explain what I mean. You have an event going on in Arizona, I have an event going on in florida and worse simulcasting, where people can see different groups and people from home can decide to do it as well. That's the only way that they're going to get the taste in the field of it actually being inversion, you have that option of doing inversion networking and then you have the option of doing the virtual networking, which is a lot of platforms allowing you to do that as well. I think that that would be something different that you haven't really seen as of late. I mean, I think it's really silly um that organizations are going out there right now and trying to make the virtual event feel like you're doing that in person, like you're a sim, I mean, I think that's more torture when it's all done. It's like, I don't want to see a VR of myself walking into some stupid ass building. Um I mean that's just that's just my opinion. I think that if you do it in that scenario where people, because that gives the people um the option, if they feel comfortable and unfortunately for that to be successful, it would have to be one of these larger organizations to pull it off. It's not going to be, it's not gonna be the mom and bob for it to actually work. I mean the virtual side, that's because I'm involved in space, I think that's the easier side, that's the side, but when it comes to doing the inversion because you're limiting the amount of people that you actually have in the space that you're renting and all that kind of stuff. That becomes a different story. I mean as we speak today the two big major organizations that put on their conferences I think this year one of them priced it right but they hardly had anybody show up. And the one that I have recently seen as of late they really had nobody show up um in regards of the amount of people that they were expecting in regards of actually what was happening. So it's I still think there were still kind of early um to full blown in person to what it was Say 2018 2019.

[00:44:42] spk_1: Yeah well I'm with you there because truly especially with if you're going to if you're thinking of SARS covid to girls as being the hazard and we're thinking of the controls that are given to us through the guidance mechanisms that C. D. C. And world health organizations. Uh Then that seems about right where you're going to have a smaller venue or at least a venue that will have a limited amount of people. But then also having the availability for those that still feel like I'm not ready for for being out in the public and being you know in a group like that that seems like like the way to do it.

[00:45:20] spk_0: I mean I think that it almost should be a combo ticket. So saying for instance if you have that. So let's say for instance you're going state specific and you have a state that's doing it have been inversion and then has the virtual option with the virtual option will be anywhere that at one ticket should be one price for it to be available. So if I want to drive down the road and go in person then if I change my mind, I still have the option of going virtual opposed to be saying this is virtual only and I have no other option and they shouldn't be super as expensive. I mean, I'm sorry most of these organizations put these things out, oh, you want to be a speaker and you're not, The keynote will let you in for free. I mean you're not really having a loss there. It's the venue and the vendors pay for this stuff most of the times anyways. So

[00:46:02] spk_1: there you go.

[00:46:03] spk_0: I sound bitter. I sound bitter when I say stuff like that.

[00:46:07] spk_1: Yeah, well that is uh, it's just true. There you go. So tell us how to reach.

[00:46:14] spk_0: You know, I'm not going to tell them how to reach me yet. I have a question for you because I know that as far as I'm aware, you haven't let the secret out. So it might as well do it on the one that I'm getting to hang out with. Uh what are you going to tell people about your new exclusive exclusive

[00:46:28] spk_1: site? My new exclusive site?

[00:46:31] spk_0: Yes for this thing that we're doing right now, uh what are you releasing it? When is it going to be official?

[00:46:40] spk_1: Okay.

[00:46:41] spk_0: The pressure on you now.

[00:46:44] spk_1: I'm going to to think about that because that looks like a it's going to be an early 20, things.

[00:46:52] spk_0: Oh look, he's not going to he's not going to see what it is. That's kind of hilarious. I love it. He's actually turned color to which is better. He didn't expect you to ask that one. I didn't know I guess I guess to be continues because he's not going to tell you right now.

[00:47:06] spk_1: It's just so much going on. I just

[00:47:10] spk_0: don't know how people are inquiring minds. Want to know what are we talking about? You can't just leave your people hanging.

[00:47:16] spk_1: Well, I am going to be switching services pretty

[00:47:19] spk_0: soon. They don't know what you're talking about. What services are we talking

[00:47:23] spk_1: about? I'm going to be switching services from where I am hosting my podcast from V cast and uh that is a great service. I do enjoy using it. However, I would like to experience the growth of the company called Dystopia and that's a new one and it is, it looks like it's going to be big and I would like to get into that and you would have to go to play dot Dystopia D. I. S C. T. O. P. I A dot com and look for the safety consultant podcast. I am moving it there and uh I'm kind of thinking in the next couple of weeks, I'm just trying to work it out and I'm doing it before the year. Let's go ahead and commit to that

[00:48:07] spk_0: one. Into your original question. Um, anything that goes on inside of these radio stations here in the podcast network safety FM dot com. But like I always tell people there's more than just me. I mean, we have we have the glorious Sheldon primacy on the station and on the podcast network. So if you get a chance, come by, take a listen to what he has going on and some of the other safety professionals that are on there and some people that are not even safety professionals and see what they have. Here we go. I'm gonna even use my board for your hair.

[00:48:39] spk_1: The man, the legend. Ah J the man, Thank you so much, brother. You don't know about all of

[00:48:49] spk_0: that. So called

[00:48:50] spk_2: welcome

[00:48:54] spk_1: back. I told you that it was gonna be just gonna be some stuff going on there, wasn't it? So, some of you may be mad at me right now, we'll get over it. We'll get by. It will be all right. Some of you are like, yeah, man, right on that's the whole point. The whole point is, let's on both sides to get over, come to our senses. It's probably better get of all right to better get evolved and we are also gonna start listening to me on dystopia dot com. D I S C T O P I A dot com. So it's official. Starting in november, I am going to be switching over to Dystopia exclusively. However, if you are listening to me on whatever device you have you will still be able to listen to me on that device that you have. So that will be kind of like pumped out that way. But there's just so many people that listen to me online where you're logging in and you listen to me either through a link that I sent on linkedin or somewhere else. You will actually get lost if I didn't tell you that everyone else that's you know, subscribed and listen to me on your app. You got me. So what I'm gonna tell you people that have been using the web, go ahead and subscribe. You go ahead and hit that subscribe button. If you can go ahead and leave me a review. Hopefully. Hopefully it's good this episode probably triggered you. Right And J did challenge me and I'm going to seek out some people and see what I could do about facilitating this conversation. Something I want to do anyway. So I'm gonna work my way to do that. So that's that's what's going through the mind. Yeah. So everyone make sure that you all along with me. Disc Topia dot com. So right now, unless you're driving, go ahead and open a tab. disc. Topia dot com. Get on their teen and then go ahead. You can hear me exclusively through them. So I just want to thank everybody for listening to the episode today with me and dr J. Not that dr J, but you know what I mean. So, thank you again. I know this was a special Wednesday episode, but that's all right. I'll be back on with you on monday. Mm hmm. Go get him.

[00:51:52] spk_2: This episode has been powered by safety. FM. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast or broadcast are dealing with a host of its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within the past hour are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based on very limited and dated. Open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast or broadcast may be reproduced stored within a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast or broadcast Sheldon brightness