Today on The Jay Allen Show, Jay speaks Sarah Bond about her journey in safety. Sarah Bond is an experienced HSE professional who began her career in safety in 2002. She has seen the industry change and has a lot to discuss on this episode of The Jay Allen Show.

The transcript is not perfect.

[00:00:03] spk_0: this show is brought to you by safety FM Hello and welcome to another episode of the J. Allen show often duplicated but never replicated. I hope everything is good and grand inside of your neck of the woods as we are going through this grandiose. So time throughout the end of the year, welcome to this whole thing that we call 2021 sell in today's episode. We got a lot of things going on and I really don't want to take too long for us to get into it. So let's go ahead and get this whole thing started. Today I have the honor and the privilege of speaking to Sarah Bond. Sarah bonds is an experience. H. S. E. Professional who began her career in safety back in 2000 and two. However, as a surf lifeguard, professional ski patroller outdoor instructor and volunteer at ST john's ambulance officer. She has lived and breathed safety from a young age. Her six years in the Royal New Zealand Naval Volunteer Reserve also gave her an Advanced Command and Communication training. So let's not get too long into this. And let's get this whole thing started with the conversation between Sarah Bond and myself today on the J ALLen show, the show is streaming now on safety FM dot life. You have to tell me all about it. I've been actually following your work for years at least. That's how I feel about it. So tell me how did it all start for you because I am so confused on how this whole journey started. What at what point did you say? The world's going to be different because Sarah's in safety or Sarah is going to be different because the world needs safety. How did that come about for you? Oh it's quite random. In fact it's very random if if you really track it back. I think probably when I started to surf lifeguarding and um it was the 92-93 season in New Zealand that I really got into it and I got really fit. I was a medical officer because I kind of realized that I was never going to be able to keep up with the boys as far as um you know swimming or paddling or driving out in an I. R. B. Sorry inflatable red boat. You know I was gonna ask if I was like you know, I have no clue what that means. Yeah. And so what I did is not a niche myself a medical. And then the really interesting thing is in 1994 New Zealand Navy said that women could go to see. And I had some friends that were also in the naval reserves as well as safe lifeguarding. So they said, hey why don't you do your basic training and see what happens. And that was amazing. And I actually, yeah there was a few other things because from there I was always got it speaking and people said oh go do a little degree. So I did. But I kind of made it a Navy and ski Patrol because I wanted to keep skiing. But I was too poor to pay for it. So I ended up again applying all of my medical knowledge and other things to that. And I sort of joke about being a law school survivor, but I sort of major the Navy Ski patrol and safe lifeguarding. And I, I genuinely did burn Adams on Criminal law and head off to Tahoe to do patrol. I actually did two seasons in America, one in Maine and one in Lake Tahoe Nevada at a place called Incline Village. Which one did you like the birth Nevada Nevada or Maine? Well, it's interesting because I love the people in Maine. I was at a place called Sandy River and I ended up in this place called Bethel and Like I think I arrived on the 20th and I've been invited to five thanksgivings dinner. But and and they, everyone was just so welcoming and so kind and some of my, my best nights, there's a place called Suds Pub and on Tuesday night they would have who at night and everyone would be downplaying bluegrass and wagon wheel and there'd be harmonicas and you know, it was just crazy and I love that the thing was the snow on the east coast is not so good. Like I can remember days where I was standing at the top of one of the peaks with like my face reflected between my skis because it was so I see, whereas over at Tahoe, like Tahoe was interesting because I landed in Reno which is a bit like the geographic armpit, what is it? And drove up over Mount Rose and then it felt like I was driving into a snow globe because it was just so beautiful. The interesting thing was I was staying in incline village and that's known as income village and that's where I met The true meaning of five star in America. And it's also where I discovered five star nastiness as well. Um And the snow was so much better on that, that size. It's a little bit more in land. The team was amazing. But I think as a community, I enjoyed my east coast main our experience more. So were you expecting more like the gambling scene when you made it Torino? At that particular portion of, if you don't mind me asking when you made it into Nevada. So you get to reno. And it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a different beast especially once you get even to the airport. Well, I think so. The thing about reno was we actually, because we flew into L. A. And again because we're all quite cheap. So we took the greyhound bus, which was from L. A. Which was an experience in itself because you know, buses are just buses in New Zealand it's not like you're going to have a drug bust down the back of it. We turned up in the bus station and this woman Emily picked us up in this massive ram dodge and was just like we're getting out of here and I'm like yes please because it was just not what I came to America for and I just wanted to get over into the snow and things like that and I think I think the thing that I really enjoy the fact that I spent, so I traveled to America before and done like Disneyland and skied in colorado. The interesting thing is about having had the both coast experiences is it really made me realize that America is 50 countries, you know, you just can't generalize it and it's been really unfortunate over the last two years because a lot of the world has seen some big generalizations about America and your presidents and things like that and are you insinuating crazy to some extent? I think that's what we're going with, right? I still don't mean that it had a flood and then it had a dumpster and then it sailing in the flood and then the dumpster was on fire and and I just, I think the two things that I find really hard and again remembering that I met some of the most generous, beautiful people in both Tahoe and main is what ends up in the mainstream media is very, very polarized and it's almost sounding like a religion in itself and that's not day to day America and I also think that people forget that, you know, you can't blame it on trump because there's this massive ecosystem and checks and balances behind that. So either way the president is the president and yes, they have a lot of power. Um, my my arts degree was in political science. So I actually studied quite a lot about the constitution and how America became a republic. And I've always found it really fascinating and um to me what happened with trump just felt like the whole country had, yeah, it was like, it painted itself into a corner with all its high ideals and then had, you know, made the bed and then had to lie in it. Yeah, I mean it, I mean the whole thing was interesting on when it was taking place in regards of, I mean some people looked at him as a reality tv show host to an extent. Um and then some people, I remember there was a gentleman by the name of Michael moore that had released something by the name of trump land, which was like a documentary on how are you gonna after after he wins. Yeah, I mean there's so many different perspectives. I mean, was it good for the country? Some people think yes was bad for the country, some people think yes, it's kind of a mix in between, it's 50% say yes, 50% say no and it boils down to a matter of opinion Well. And I, I also find it really interesting because one of my, one of my best friends actually, she was up at Temple Basin, which was where I first in speed patrol, she now lives in Utah and they're Snowbird and she said the things that she finds really hard because new Zealand's pretty egalitarian and we like people to have their own opinions and she said it has amazed her over how the last two years she's got really good friends, but there's just certain things they don't talk about ever and that to me because I like, I like to appreciate people holistically and I love robust discussion and like I'm one of those painful people that like I forced myself to listen to whether it be podcasts or books to look at things that diametrically opposed to me and it may make me feel squeamish or want to throw something sometime, but I still listen and yeah, knowing Farrah that was like quite extreme for her well and it's amazing that you say that because it's so interesting and I'll go into social media for a moment where we can't have a discussion of you agree, I disagree or vice versa, at least on this side. Um, it's automatically we can no longer be connected. I'm not talking so much of the Lincolns of the world, I'm talking more like the faith folks instagram and so on where all of a sudden seems like there's a lot of common, right, where we can talk. And I remember at one point in my life we were able to have discussions, hey, we don't have to agree on your theory, my theory, somebody else's theory, but we can still be friends. We can still have a common ground of they were humans. Um, but a lot of that has changed over the last little bit of no, if you don't see it that way we are no longer friends, we can no longer speak and it's, it's these hard lines in the sand, but you see it a lot in the digital community. Um, and then not talked about in the in person side of the world to things there. For me, one is again, we're having a robust discussion about it and it's not a, it's either you're all trump or you're all biden and you can't like some of trump and some of biden and and that again to me is um do you remember that book that the wave, which was about that school teacher that ran a social experiments at a school that sort of basically set up Hitler youth and demonstrated how quickly things I'm like, wow, that's getting into the Handmaid's tale and Hitler youth stuff there. So that was scary. But also I find it fascinating in the safety community because you soda stole my thunder, you know exactly where I was going to go down, How did I know video going, I, I just have a habit of having a light touch when I pulled the pin and threw a grenade into something. And again, I find that some safety people have become quite evangelical. It does and, and it feels like they're nailing themselves to crosses, but meanwhile the thing is, is that people who are engineers or accountants or lawyers are just sitting on the side with their popcorn going, this is hilarious. It's not serving our profession at all and it's not serving our clients either and like, no, go ahead, go ahead. The thing I find interesting is I take my clients as is where is like I have quite a robust process for me to say I'm actually going to work with them. Like I, I belong, I'm on the Peredo called curve and the fact that I pretty much got rid of 80% of my clients when I had a baby, and just I'm only going to work with the people that, I like which was very different because when I first started consulting, I believe I would have gone to the opening of an envelope and taking on everyone and I believe I understand exactly yeah, I paid for that. I paid for that dearly and it's that whole thing of some of my clients meeting them where they're at and using their language, sometimes I'm using behavioral based tools, sometimes I'm using control and command traditional safety. Sometimes I'm using leading edge um like some work I'm dealing with Nippon Anandan Novellus is Leading edge safety too hot stuff, which is quite amazing. But the thing is I'm more than happy to shift gear If it's going to move me that 1% closer to where I need my client to be. This is Jay Allen show have you ever wanted to focus on your wellness but didn't know what to do well now it's the time to reset your wellness with wellness reset. They provide wellness coaching to individuals who struggle with losing weight or integrating wellness into their lives due to emotional eating stress, feeling overwhelmed and fatigue and fatigue? 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Some are safety professionals, some are just people that are talking about safety, but we want to do it in a format that makes it fun and entertaining if you're kind of trying to figure out what the FM portion is. Well, we're a radio station and also a podcast network. You come out, hang out, listen to my show that J Allen show you listen Dot Conklin with the pre accident investigation, blame J. Hoffman with the safety pro the hot nerd Sam Goodman, Just to name a few on what can be found on the station, different things for different people trying to bring safety in an entertaining for safety FM dot com. Go to the website, download the app and carry it with you all day long. Safety FM dot com. We'll be waiting for you. We are back on the J Allen show on safety FM. Well, and that's funny that you mentioned that because a lot of people are so hesitant of realizing that some of the stuff that can be done in the world to safety our bolt ons and you have to really meet people where they're at and say, let's do in addition to opposed to, oh, no, hostile takeover. Get rid of that stuff. Let's start off, I mean, and some people invested hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars into some of these programs and all of a sudden you walk and go now, get rid of the whole thing. Let's start off from scratch. It's not going to be what they want to do now. You did jump ahead because apparently you must have exactly where I'm leaning. So let me, let me go with this real quick. So I did notice that you are doing stuff with Nipping. Where did the change came about? Because I noticed you were doing your own thing. And then all of a sudden it was like uh and I was, I was kind of intrigued because I'll tell you he had recently released something that I was very intrigued about, that we had an interview a few months back at this particular point. Is that what got you excited about, about what was going on or why the transition. Oh, so I think I daniel ha middle and art didn't out of work presentation and I think about 2000 and 12, 2000 and 13 in New Zealand. It's kind of cool because there are so many big names that come to new Zealand and sort of use this as their training Petri dish and then get feedback. And so the thing is, we've had phenomenal people like we've had um Todd compton came and spoke and all right, yeah, I think you are. Todd's amazing. Um yeah, Todd's brain, I wish I could download it to be honest. Um The thing with Nippon is he did this presentation in New Zealand, it actually happened in Lockdown last year on the Costa Concordia and he did it for all of the New Zealand Institute of Safety Management, interesting in New Zealand because we only have one. Uh actually no, there is NZ risk and there's a safety society but N. C. I C. M. Is the main one that people tend to belong to because that's another thing I notice in America people getting. It's like the, I think linda keith martin talked about the snitches, my belly stars better than yours because I've got different letters and again I'm just like such a waste of energy. Anyway, Kniffen did the Costa Concordia and because I've been in the Navy, I started throwing just things through to him on linkedin. And it's interesting because one I took a career break, I've been very young and I've been a GMh health and safety and I just looked in the mirror Rwanda and said I can't do this. So I went back to Temple Basin as a hot custodian because I wasn't that enough to do patrol and then I ended up working for the Department of Conservation and then I decided to be a travel writer. And the thing about travel right for a walk You did that for a long time though you did that for like almost 12 years travel writer and I'm still doing but on request like it's sort of like, a I don't know and careers guidance, we talk about it being a portfolio career. So I kind of joke about how I've got my steel caps for safety, I've got stilettos for HR and then I still do the travel writing on the side. Um and but the thing about the travel writing is it gave me the ability to be a reverent and quirky and cheeky instead of that more formal legalistic view. And actually this is another thing though, after ski Patrol, I rent to England, worked in law firms for a year, made a lot of money and then I quit that because I was doing the same thing with the same sort of people in London that I could in new Zealand so I decided to be an outdoor instructor and Well, I hope it will be close to the same thing. Well the funny thing is, is that 8-12 year olds and the first center I worked with was tough South London kids, like we're talking about eight year olds with flick knives and condoms in the pocket, You're like, what are you gonna do? Stick that over your head, the big one. Um, and like it's, it's just, but they're all tough and then like, I basically got to have a social experiment and um, toughest guy crying on the top of the absolute tower and working with them doing that. But with eight year olds, it's really simple, you just have to learn their name and you basically have to give them, this is the playing field that we're on. If you step over here you'll get a yellow card. If you step over here you get a red card. And the thing is some of these kids were just amazing and I'm actually still in touch with some of them. Like it's been over 20 years now, but there they're still in touch with leader Sarah, which is kind of cool. Well it started off being their parents. That was like, so anyway, that part of the story was things like surf lifeguarding after instructing ski patrol in the navy. What made me what I believe to be a proficient safety professional, not my formal education and and and that's why I'm just as happy presenting in a board of directors legal style or in my steel capped boots. And like in new Zealand we talk about the smoker room, which is sort of like, you know the cafeteria porta com type thing. And yeah, like I think that was really valuable and nipping picked this up because I was talking to him about the cost of Concordia because I listened to his first session and I said it's like the parable of the Good Wolf and the bad wolf, you know, the good Wolf and me is like everybody needs to listen and everybody needs to be treated with dignity. But the bad wolf and mayors like I've done see survival school and when I was in oil and gas, I did my helicopter underwater escape training and I can't believe the captain abandoned the ship. You know, like because I've read, I had, have you done his Costa Concordia course? Yes. I actually did it earlier this year. Well, you know how like I went, I was emotionally bludgeoned by the end of it because I went on such a journey. I choked on humble pie. Um I don't want to give your listeners the Mhm I don't want to give away the punch line, but at the end of it, yeah, I was, I was quite humbled and I was just amazed at how, oh, it was a lesson on biases. That was a lesson on predetermined information. It was a lesson on how badly the media can skew things and but the other thing I noticed about Nippon is he's so ego list. Like he just listens and he doesn't feed drama, you know, and he's someone else. I think actually you do it as well because I know that you interview people across the safety press spectrum with all different backgrounds and information and just listen, Just give them space and have a sense of humor at the same time. Like I think a lot of safety land doesn't do so well with humans sometimes. Did you see that Rachel Waller post that got completely flamed. It just happened recently. Um but yeah, I love her, I love her by the way, I just want to throw that out I think, I think she's fantastic. Yeah and I think that she's brought the message to such a broad audience, you know, like I just think that safety professionals have a habit of um it's that echo chamber cognitive dissonance thing when we just all sit and not at each other and completely forget our audience. Anyway, back to Nip and so I got I had this dialogue and he could see from the way I was writing that I've been on a journey and next thing you know, Selena Armstrong who's the ceo of N. Z. I S. M got in touch with me and said you've been chosen for six months of coaching with Nippon and I sort of fell off my chair because yeah, like it just was so random and so out of the field and there was five other people and we met with Nippon once a month and it was basically just he'd he'd give us something to think about and then we'll talk it through and it was just what he did, not looking back on, it was so skilled. And I also now realized that essentially It was like a 6-month job interview, maybe that's what that was just playing the whole time. He just didn't tell anybody. Well I don't yeah, I just don't know. Um and then next thing, you know, they're sort of like well we'd like to bring you on as a consultant for consult, confide us, we've got a major team that we're working with in new Zealand and we need someone on the ground that understands the new Zealand legislation and how it works and I was like yeah, that's great. And the funny thing is so Nippon tells the story that the whole process behind him confide us in Novellus was he was a senior officer on a big ship that had come out of dry dock and they were steaming away and the engine broke down and they needed a part and nobody knew where the part was and it was this junior rating like this lowest on the totem pole that went, oh look here it is, I'll fix it for you. And it really started up and thinking because of he's just, he's a very deep thinker, like blue sky crazy, like just how he connects things and put them together and so that was where he thought, you know what, we've just got to get better at respecting people for the technical knowledge and making sure that we bring them in and we listen to them. So the interesting thing is that now on that team, I feel like the lowest ordinary rating. But but the interesting thing is is this team gives me space to have an opinion and give feedback and because so there's nip in and of course, you know, he's been, he's a Master mariner that's done some huge investigations in the North Sea and has his PhD and he, he's the entrepreneur like Einstein thinker, then there's another guy called john more so john moore was also a master mariner that sailed container ships around the pacific and then his last job, he was in Qatar Qatar coordinating the shell oil container ships through the Suez Canal. Like that, that sort of world is just a different planet to what I can imagine down in Cromwell. And then there's another guy called Pedro Ferraro Ferreira who he is part of Nottingham University and his mind is like the Matrix, so he is amazing with ai analysis and both qualitative and quantitative sense. And um so these, I'm sitting there in meetings with these three guys seeing how they manage their project timelines, how they develop documents, how they manage stakeholders. Hang on, I'll tell you just just a second, my dog is making a bed for himself under the table and I just, I could hear it is perfectly fine, You dog there, you are, people need to know everything is normal, everything this is toxic is a dog and you can now you can go tinkle tinkle out the door. So when you, when you get to sit there and you get to see this and you did describe Pedro as actually being part of the Matrix when it's all said and done, what are you seeing how, how are these conversations going and are you looking at, are you looking on as a spectator, are you jumping in? I'm actually jumping in and that, but that's, that's my point about this team as they live their values and the fact that, well, it's interesting because so john moore is very pragmatic and so am I, we're very grounded and we're like, well, how is this going to work in the world of steel capped boots, guys? And so the thing is, is that meetings are very structured and there, you know, there there's things that we need to talk about and things that we get to get done, but when we're actually having the general conversations about new ideas or where we want to go, everybody's view is valued and everyone's given space and if I don't say something, the people and look at me and say right, sarah, what do you think? And yeah, and, and it's, don't worry, I've always got something to say, but it's, yeah, again, because I've always been someone who's being quite forthright and spoken up and, you know, sort of like the emperor is naked, what are we doing. Um, and that is in the past got me in a lot of trouble, but it circulate in the oil industry where uh, yeah, I think an oil, there's a matrix where they talk about, if you say the right thing, at the right time or the right thing at the wrong time, wrong thing, right time, wrong thing, wrong time. I spent most of my experience in the oil industry saying the right thing at the wrong time, Like the lesson I let there was understanding the power structure and then working out who needed to deliver the message. And often it was not me, right? And that's what happens most of the times, it's supposed to be somebody else delivering the message that you have because they want to be, well, say quote unquote the smartest person in the room well, and well, it's just not even that, it's just, yeah, it was this was a long time ago and I know things have evolved from them, but like for me, I just feel like I'm on fertile soil because I'm allowed to deliver my own message with this team and that's so important. And the thing is that when you don't have that and you're accustomed to the other side, or you're not able to share your own messaging, it's such a world of difference. And so now that you've had this general feeling and keep in mind, you've been doing the same thing, your own thing for a period of time. But now you're inside of this room where you're looking at these other people and you're able to speak in there, which is important, are you, is this what you're gonna stick with are gonna stick with, you're gonna stick with because of the thing is I am applying. So, like my professional goals in january this year, it's just about right when I started on my journey with novellas, was to listen deeply and stay curious for that little bit longer. And this has affected me across my life. This works really well with a six year old, which I happen to have and all of my clients, like my relationship, I had this amazing meeting with the team yesterday and we ran through, look, I've got all my little lego people here, so this is this is me. And then I had all my people that were lego people and we ran through a scenario. But then they're like, well, hold up, let's make sure we're explain this for the people that are listening, their little lego little lego people that she's popping up that are fully dressed in, you know, in formal attire. So that, this is, this is um, uh, well, I run desktop lego exercises where it's like this post it note is site and this post it note is the local doctors and this post it note is the helicopter that they got put in, what's the hospital, where the helicopter took them. And it's interesting and Cromwell because like, it wasn't my team, but in Queenstown a couple of years ago, someone got hell you backed off the site and the wife and the daughter drove to Dunedin, which is a three hour drive and they had a car accident in Milton. And the thing is so, uh, like Sidney Dekker always talks about secondary victims. And that to me was the most poignant example of that, of like when someone is injured, you need to look at the whole ecosystem and support everyone to stay safe. And the thing is, so we're running through the lego scenario about who would go where, you know, who would help get the family to Dunedin and, and who was going to notify work safe, which is, you know, our example, uh, version of Toyota and all the rest of it. And then at the end of that, the team said to me, well, we've got something to tell you and I'm like, oh yeah. And they're like, well we had a near miss that was quite serious and we ran our own learning team and for me, yeah. And it was because I've been working with them for quite a while and they had the note that they've done it over two sessions that had their marinate time. Um, and they'd come up with the report and the recommendations and they were so proud that they have done it all themselves and that the team had the psychological confidence to do it and to speak. But the thing is they didn't need me and like for me, it was just amazing. Like it was a, you know, I was just so proud and so happy. But the thing is, there's no way, you know, five years ago I would have let that happen. It's like no, no command and control. I'm your safety person. I have to be there and it's all because of the work with nip in that the whole relax has changed and it's so important to be able to have that change inside inside of your life. It's like that breakthrough moment that you didn't know you were looking for that has occurred because all of a sudden, like you said five years ago, not something that you would be willing to give up and all of a sudden it's kind of, I'll say that proud parent moment if I may or it's like look at them that number one, they were able to do it. And number two, you didn't feel like, oh my God, I had to be there the whole time. It's like the first time that you could go drive the car by themselves, you know, you're kind of freaking out. But it's still one of those things that when you find out that came back fine, it's important. Well and I just, it's letting go of your ego and like I think The most interesting thing for me is if you look at the 1st 10 years of my career, I knew the solution and could tell you what you needed to do before I even knew what the problem was. The big thing with Nippon is I've been learning to work out what is the problem. And it's often the weak signals that lead you to the problem, not the big glaring gorilla, you know, the basketball playing gorilla thing that you see first of all. And but it's very humbling and I have to park my ego at the door. And because that's the other thing is like, I often think that law school was an impediment because you can be because you can have very black and white thinking you can be very adversarial. Like again, I did a lot of debating and impromptu speaking through university and high school and things and like I'm happy to debate either side of a topic right. There's this real challenge that you you gain your positional power through being technically right. And I think one of the things that I've learned with Nippon is sometimes it's better to be kind than right and the solution will come and it's not about right or wrong or good or bad, it's just about what is. But you really have to trust and have that confidence and listen. And I think, and I think that's it. I think that's what, and that's where we leave us. I'm gonna tell you we're going to have to do this again. It can this cannot be the only time that you come on, you have such a wealth of knowledge. So Sarah Sarah people want to know more about your work and they go to find out more. Well, I'm on linkedin so that Sarah Bond and you can find out to be safe now employ me now or Novellus. I'm pretty active on linkedin as you've probably seen. So send me a message. Never noticed at all. No more than happy to talk. And I actually did I did another podcast with Glennis McCarthy for the learning teams. So they talked more about my genesis evolution and where I came from. I am kind of know that group. There's something about them that I know about. You know, they're they're pretty amazing and it's yeah, Green Green and Green us see that honestly j that's been the hardest thing for me. Like there are so many safety professionals in New Zealand that I look up to that. I just think are outstanding. You know, joe pregnant, works with Fulton Hogan, there's money hog, there's Margaret Van Shade, there's a whole lot of amazing and you know, of course, Britain Glennis yet somehow the universe has smiled on me and I've ended up on weapons team and it's still like, I'm still looking over my shoulder and suffering from the imposter syndrome. Um it's like why did it happen? And he's in the U. K. That doesn't help out. That's that sounds that sounds like a little short little flight. You know, this is the fascinating thing because of Covid, no one's been traveling. So they needed someone on the ground and it just just, you know, as I said, it just happened to be me and just a very humbling privileged, amazing experience um to be a part of that team and see what they're trying to do and where it's going to go. And it's just said, I just just learned and learn and learn and it can be exhausting and the reflection can be painful sometimes. But yeah, back to eating that humble pie and choking on it. Well, Sarah, I do appreciate you coming on to the show. Want more of the J Allen show, go to say TFM dot com. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the host in its

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[00:39:57] spk_1: creator of the podcast.

[00:39:58] spk_0: Jay allen a