In this episode, Sheldon speaks to Jim Poesl of Safety Wars, regarding his career, podcasting, training, and more! Jim has 28 years of broad-based experience working in the environmental consulting field developing expertise in the recognition, evaluation and abatement of hazards to people and the environment. Areas of competence include experience in site OSHA compliance, Health and Safety/Hazcom Plan generation and implementation, indoor air quality investigations, bioterrorism response, extensive VOC and metals air sampling and air monitoring operations, Environmental Health & Safety training, site photography, oil refinery site remediation. BP Gulf Oil Spill Responder and Trainer. Author of Nuclear Terrorism, A Family Response Guide, Safety Wars™ Construction Safety Meeting Program, Safety Wars™ OSHA Recordkeeping Guide.
Keywords: Jim Poesl, Safety Wars, Sheldon Primus, Safety FM, EHS, Anthrax, New Jersey, New York, DOB, Compliance, Safety and Health, Maritime, Construction, General Industry, HOP, Coach, safety consultant, consultant, Authorized Outreach Training, COVID-19, ETS, US, Joe Biden, Government
[00:00:04] spk_0: Yeah, this episode is powered by safety FM. Welcome to the safety consultant podcast. I'm your host, Sean and promise this is the podcast where I teach you the business of being a safety consultant. This week we're speaking to jim puzzle of safety wars. Jim proposal has been in the industry for nearly 30 years. He's also a safety FM host. Like I am so part of the podcast, broadcast family, it's a gym and I talk a lot about safety, Talk about some of the things that are related to new york and New Jersey specific his time in some cleanup activities related to uh anthrax and a few other cases as being a hazardous material cleanup. And jim actually is one of the, I call him in the interview a unicorn if you will. And he's one of the only people that have all four of the OSHA outreaches. So most people are aware of the construction, the general industry and the maritime, but OSHA also has one for disaster recovery and so Jim actually has that one. So we talk a little bit about that As well as you know, some of the things happening in the industry with COVID-19 and you know, the hot topics that get so without any further do I am going to introduce mr Jim puzzle and there will not be anything after this interview. So just go ahead and subscribe to safety consultant wherever you're listening to right now on the podcast and then we will see you again next week. Great. That's what we do weekly every once in a while I throw in another one. Uh that is not in the week, But we will definitely see you back at my name's Jim puzzle. I've been doing health and safety for almost 30 years. A couple of months will be 30 years. I'm a certified safety professional, certified houses material manager, among other things. And I went to undergrad work in uh Stockton State College over in pomona, New Jersey, now Stockton University probably. And I did my grand work and environmental policy studies over at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. So I uh went into business for myself after being in working for private consultants and a very large engineering firm in 2000 and four, I started my first company from 2004 ran until 2010. That's when I started JCP Technical Services and recently I went to uh safety FM, the safety FM network and I started safety awards, which is my podcasts were available on most podcast podcast platforms. I think almost all of them, I can name definitely all the ones I can name every time something comes up and I'm like, where did that come from? And I run a youtube channel, jim puzzle safety wars and uh that's what I do. I pretty much came up through the environmental health and safety field doing environmental cleanups. My most famous one, I have two famous ones, one made 60 minutes. That was the Grand Street Mercury cleanup in Hoboken New Jersey and we're General Electric co in the building. Uh, back in the 19 forties this was, and there was a Mercury issue and then the cleanup was, and they started in the late 19 nineties and my second most famous project was 20 years ago this week. The anthrax cleanups for CBS and NBC, wow. What do I know that that came through the mail? Right. Yes. Which they technically have, in my opinion, at least they did not solve because someone ever got convicted that some people got accused and we'll, we'll put all welled up what happened there, but technically was never solved. So anyway, I'm trying to get people on to talk about that next week. But with all the NDS non disclosure agreements, everything you really can't go into details on anything without, you know that somebody giving us a mission. Yeah. How do you like the podcasting thing so far? Uh, I'm enjoying it. It's like the best talk therapy you could ever have. Especially with my, because I rant a lot. I have to throttle it back because I can't be yelling and screaming all into the microphone. Yeah, mike. And then, you know, my voice goes weird when I start yelling and screaming. It's not good for the heart. You know, you got to get to relax a little not good for the heart. You're like the one man I know you don't seem to have any nerve. Am uh funny you're nice and calm? All my nerves. Say Valium? No, just getting for me, Everyone thinks I'm yelling at him all the time. I said, no, I'm from New Jersey. That's what, yeah, yeah. And I'm actually from queens. I was born and raised in queens, um, and went to Bayside high and everything like I told you before, but truly the only time people know I'm from new york is if I have to say water a quota and it's blown, you know, then they know you're thematic, right? Is that correct? I am pulling, you're pulling, Everyone's like, you're known that you're known that I am and it is the best place to be for me and I just like that. Uh, I decided that a while back right around 2016. My wife and I write, my son graduated from high school and my daughter already graduated. So we're like, all right, empty nest. And we decided, let's get an RV and go, I bless you. Well, I know with me, my biggest issue is I'm a little bit of a pack rat, especially if you're a safety guy. You're going to be a pack rack. You women are not safety guys are, Yeah. Get a little bit of both. Get a little bit of both. What if you learned so far from this from the whole experience of, of, you know, having what you're calling talk therapy and, and the podcasting and being able to interview and all that. But what's, what's the lessons that were alerted. Yeah, I learned was uh, a lot of people feel the same way we do. And I'll say we as a community. So my most popular, one of my most popular podcasts and spend push fax that the pushback that safety professionals get. And I used the Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals from the late 19 seventies to talk about right the safety field. I incorporate every one of those 13 rules in the safety field and there are things like, uh, no, this was a comment I got when I first presented it over, I'm also an assistant professor, associate professor over at New Jersey City University over in Jersey city. So I had to present, No, I'm running a eight hour has swap for a weekend early. I have a good class, good group of people and it's like 7 30 but you got to go seven hours and 30 minutes. You gotta go to eight hours. That's so I said, was there anything anybody I would like to hear any topics? Anything we'll open it up. And these are young professionals are seniors and they said, well, we're having issues with, helping with dealing with people. And I said, okay, well let me try this at and I go through the whole thing and I'm not sure what to call it. This is like the first time. I'm just like an experiment, like a beta test. Uh, someone of course from New Jersey consensus says, jim this was, I've been here for five years is the most phenomenal thing I've heard in five years. This was the most useful half hour and find that said, well, that's pretty sad. She said, what you gotta do, what you have to call this is how to funk with people's minds. Oh yeah, I would work. So yeah, but basically that's how it is. I'm finding out that it's very common and I'm getting feedback, especially on those two. These are a lot of the things we go into or what people have to deal with on a daily basis. One you have no credibility to your bullied three. They screw with your pay. All right. So you're non production, uh, your quote unquote non production. All right. And I am very, uh, person. So therefore we're not going to pay you a lot, which is baloney or the biggest thing is especially, and I ran into this in the early part of my career. We're not going to send you the continuing yet. Uh, so you're left remember and things are different 30 years ago then today we have this thing called the Internet. You may have heard of it. Maybe, uh, you can look things up on the Internet. It used to not be that way you would get if you're lucky. You got 29 CFR 1926 and book form. If you were lucky and one of them, I won't mention the competitor, one of my competitors now. Uh, he still sends people out in the field with a pencil and a log book and that's it. And no, but you're paying $40 an hour and you get what you pay for. Right wow. That's it. Just a pencil in my logbook to do their audits. I would imagine you do everything. So you know, it's sad and it's old information. That's one of the things that new way you bully people is withhold information and you know, I ran into this with a client recently also where jim we wrote this great plan. Can you please review it? I reviewed the plan and face and I said, look, I'm just judging what you gave me. I can't, I don't have any of the original analytical, I wasn't part of any of the original discussions the last two years on this project. Uh, and in the negotiations, I'm just writing on the plan. All right. What you have and commenting on the plan and then you get a phone call week and a half later from the prime contractor. How come you left this out after you left this out? Blah blah blah blah blah. Hey, I'm just judging the plan and yours emails I have. Okay, well we can add that in there and then you look and you're like, mm why the hell did they leave that out? I mean this would have been no impact on this plan but it had to be in the plan, right work. So they probably forgot or someone who was in a hurry or they grabbed it from someone else and then check to see if it was completely, you know, one of those things and now we're finding that out on, you know, the higher I get in my career right, since I've been a CSP for the last couple of years, the more common that becomes, I always knew that it happened whether you couldn't really say one way or another, but now, especially in this region of the area metro of the U. S. Metro US area, metro, I'm sorry and white new york city area, all these jobs have to be looked at by a CSP ch or someone like that. Yeah. No, it's not like back in the old days, you know, on big projects, that address, okay, we'll sign off on it. Yeah. And that's not even the way it is. I mean it gets reviewed right now in with new york city work other than the Department of Buildings which is its own story man. D. O. B. Department of buildings, there just criteria for everything is so stringent that truly I've written some courses for people who wanted to get on their approved list to be providers for training and to looking at the list of things I needed to accomplish to write their courses. I'm like what is new york trying to do and there's no way they give you the time frame, the D. O. B. The timeframe for an hour. But yet the content is like four hours worth of content. And they're trying to say you got to get in an hour. Hey, we've all been there, we've all been there with clients saying, look you have to do uh this training, whether it's love one pathogen, first aid cpr, I don't know if your first aid Cpr trainer I am but and all this stuff, we have five hours or four hours to do this and it's crunch time you get it in but and everything, but if you're dealing one or two people you can probably get it in. No problem. You're dealing with 20 people in a class, guess what for 10 people to happening, but it ain't gonna happen. So um I think is what I laugh about it all of this and I'm uh it sounds like OSHA is calling me up Or somebody because this is the train. All the trainers get the same question. Yeah I have 10 people, I need you to do 30 our outreach training For, it's usually construction even though I got all four for every and it says how long is that going to take every time? 30 hours or 7.5 hour days as best we can do and they are 7.5 hour days, they're not four hours or three hours. There are seven a half hour days. Well, can you, uh, I know somebody who could do it and one day I said, well, you know, you're committing multiple felonies by doing that. You know, you can't do it. Not allowed. Ain't gonna happen. Yeah. And they get those calls and you're wondering who are these people that are just after the risk and the effort and everything you take to get your authorized, your OSHA authorized outreach trainer designation of or just being authorized. Then in those cases you can lose it like that and you're gone for good. Why would you do that? You're going to jail. This is New york and New Jersey, they prosecute this confident person's right. I'm not, by the way, I'm not an attorney. I don't know if you're an attorney. I'm not an attorney, I'm just an experienced guy. Yeah. Uh, so over here in new york on all my projects, we have to re designate a confident person, whoever that is for the trade, who's your competent person and we have a checklist of all the things you could be competent persons. So, you know, excavation, uh, confines fifth century right overall. Uh, right, uh, competent person. The whole thing because if there is a major accident. Uh, Probably one of the 1st 10 questions they're gonna ask is who's the confident first? Oh yeah, that's, that's like, that's one of the, that's question one. Usually. Yeah, somewhere. No, usually it's hi, I'm from the gun room and I'm here to help number one. Number two, what happened? Number three words 0 to 300 log number four, who is the competent versus, and that's pretty much, you know, and if you don't have one designated, that's clearly designated. I'm not saying necessarily in writing, you have to have one clearly designated. You're gonna have a problem. Well, in new york, if you're the confident person and if something happens and you didn't do your job, you've got a personal problem, You got somebody hurt or killed or you created some kind of major damage. You personally have an issue here in new york because they're more likely to get prosecuted for that in new york than anywhere else based on my experience. So I don't know does that mean though, on, on the consulting side, does that mean that you have to get extra insurance? Like you go for the $2 million policy versus the $1 million policy or are you always planning that in some way? You could have litigation from every client? You go, So what does that mean for someone who's in the, in that area? What it means is there's a lot of text messages and a lot of emails and a lot of photos. In some cases, there's videos or audio recordings and dress. You got to communicate. Absolutely have to communicate. Uh, you know, when you're trying again, you got to work with people, you don't want to be hostile towards people. I always, I don't believe it or not. I know, even though it's safety wars, right? I try to be uh, Portugal, I try to communicate to cooperate and work with people and everything else, especially out on the jobs. You're not gonna get anywhere. I was a screamer and yeller for years. We're both from, you know, I'm from Northern New Jersey and from New york city screamer and Elliot. That's what we do. Uh, when it all comes down to it, who's paying your paycheck? And how are you going to protect that person? You know, with the paycheck? And of course I, you know, you get the best insurance policy you could afford. As always my thing. And you know, your insurance agent, like I didn't interview with Don Becker, uh, my insurance agent a couple weeks ago, you might have heard it on specifically homeowners associations. That's one of her uh, main focuses of her businesses, homeowners associations. And we have every year we have frank conversations every january. Usually when nothing's going up, we have a frank conversation. Neither me or someone on her staff, what kind of abilities do you have? What kind of work do you have coming up? Do you have enough insurance? And I think if you don't have a close uh, friendship or something, even on the business level, uh, with your insurance agent, you really, you know, you're going to have a problem. And the other thing is this, you gotta make any time I'm dealing with a major accident unless like I pulled in on an accident investigation on some sort. But let's say it's a site that I'm, my company is managing and there is a major accident. Guess what? That phone she I manage that accident. Next phone call is my insurance agent make a first report. Uh, don't make that first report. You're going to, you're going to have an issue. And this is what I stress to the workers if you are injured the minute that you find out that you're injured, make that report every time. Because again, we're, again, I specialize in OSHA, not Workman's comp, but Workman's comp, the longer you wait, the less, the more likely you're gonna get. Not approved for work. Workman's comp uh, situation too many variables. Once you go out 36 hours afterwards you're running, you're running, uh, you may have a problem. Yeah. There's just too many variables for them to, to look for this event specifically is what we could have as a claim versus anything else because truly they'll never know because if it's too many days, how do we know it's this impact from this day at this time. So for example, all sure story we had and I'm filled with millions of stories here as everybody knows if you're not, you can go, you can go to safety words dot com and look up my podcast, right? That a guy who was injured on the job had a knee injury. So we put together an accident management program for that client. I said, look, we go and get all, we investigate all accidents, all incidents. Number one. Number two, we document them all. And number three, we got a medical evaluation. Even if it's for anything other than like a paper cut and even a paper cut. I've had one project for some kind of paper cut cut and then it turned into OSHA Recordable because you needed after he didn't take care of it. Three weeks later he had some infection. So, uh so what do we do? We went out. We uh got them all documented, got them all fixed up the best we could. But we're through urgent care. Had someone managing it. He worked the rest of the year. Uh this accident happened. And I believe in september work till winter Layoff. In january winter Layoff. He took no, no problem. He was working 100 hour weeks. No, no issues. Came back uh March. When the worst started up again off winter Layoff. And he had posted on social media. He went from being, he went to the islands. He went here, He went there. Then he ended up, you know where this is going? Sheldon? I I see it already. Then he was bragging That he was talking to everybody at work. Oh yeah. I was working for my brother in law and his carpet installation place. All right. And you know what the the the kneeler, uh what is up here? We'll stretch the carpet. All right. Uh we know what the damage that does. So he can't seem to work around 20 minutes later. Since my means injured him from from the accident. September my other workers come and there was a lawsuit that has since been uh dismissed and everything else. If we did not cover our basis, september that very likely would have been any needed surgery and everything very likely would have been uh workers comp related thing. But because we had our X rays, we had our M. R. I. S. You had a medical, our medical uh documentation. And it went nowhere. That's right. You stop it before it could happen, right? And uh this is important documentation again. Like we said, what do you do? You make sure you make sure you do your job, make sure you get as much as you can in writing. If not, then, you know, emails, text messages and you know, if it's really adversarial. Uh you know, you got a recording of video recording. So one client of mine, that's all every time there's an incident, there's video recording. 100%. Yeah. And if you keep that going and you have a history of doing that then. Now, especially if you have to admit whatever it is, the video footage in court, then you can see that you have a history of this and it's not just picking on this one person at this one time. But this is what you do. You take video, you know, my main client. Uh we're not even allowed to really, unless it's an ideal age situation. Immediately dangerous life. The whole situation, the work has to be stopped, right? There were not even allowed to correct anything with that photograph. Uh because they ran in again, you got to remember to, I worked for general contractors. Usually it's not their employees that are the issue. They got subcontractors. Well, guess what happened? Subcontractors. The employees normally cannot sue the employer for uh, injuries. So that's some type of thing over the top. That's all taking a cafeteria workers comp system and every or every state is different, right? Every state is different. But they've gotten sued by a lot of people who got hurt on the work site. Then it goes back to the general contractor because they're not the employer or go back to the safety professional because we're not the employer, same thing. We're wrongful firing, right? And I know a lot of our competitors go out there. Well, I'm going to fire you from this job. You get dismissed him from that job. You know, you can't fire him, especially when it comes from an injury and you're like, hold on, did you read 1904, You know what you're setting this up for? You had a question to, I needed to ask you, I don't want to break your thought there. But you're one of these, your unicorns out there for OSHA training. And I've only known you that have this. I've known people who have three, but I don't know people that have for the outreach training where you do where you can train in construction, general industry, maritime and hazard the hazardous waste cleanup. So, disaster response. The disaster response. Yeah, three of them General industry and construction. And it's a really easy story how that came about. And you're going to love it. All right. This is going on too. You know. Uh huh. So, I get out of I get out of corporate America started my own company with the first one and I might on job sites. Well, All you have is 12 years, 13 years experience at that point, doing all this interesting work or high level work with health and well, and then you get somebody out, there who. well, you're not qualified. We don't feel you're qualified. And then you find out that they've got two years experience in their carpenter's apprentice. All right. And that's the only experience that they might have had an outreach training course, right? Might have Well, you're not, you know, I mean blah blah blah. So this has gone on. Starting into so in 2000 and five, I got the construction thing. I said, okay well now at least I'll get a little bit of respect because I'm an outreach trainer. Uh So I went into did other work and then I came back to this facility in 2009. And I and I had to hear the same thing. Well you're not qualified so. Well what's the easiest way I could get credentials? What's the easiest way? And you know at this point I was just starting a family but my wife had just had my wife and we're going to get married but I don't have time to sit down and do all of this crap. I don't and plus uh you know me, I don't have an academic safety background right now. I just have experience. And what we're training I pick up. So what I did was I went to Rutgers uh the Rutgers Office of Public health Practice which is the ocean outreach office or I don't know what the correct designation is for uh this area region too. So I go there and I uh so look at their programs. I said, well I see construction safety and health outreach uh specialists. General industry technical specialists and general industry uh safety and health specialists. Right? I believe that's the thing. I said well what do I need to do for that? I started just taking courses at Rutgers. I just started taking whatever I am. I. I had a client. I had no revenue at that time I hired an assistant who's still with me bob, hey bob take over for me. I'm going to Rutgers for two days or three days and I just built up slowly but surely all of these credentials. And also before that I got a credential from a cock american council for accreditation. They're called nowadays uh for handling biological stuff and you keep on just building building building before you know it hell you got all four outreach credentials because I mean one of the at the end is from, I believe the disaster one was the last one. You're pretty much that's not as hard to get out of the other ones. Problem is that nobody wants it. So all my internal people have had it. Everybody who if you go through my company, you're guaranteed to get an outreach certificate 30 hour And uh and uh construction and you're guaranteed to get it 15. Our disaster response. Uh excellent every time. So internally it's good. Uh that's a response. No, I can't figure it out when it's actually really, I don't know when they started it but after September 11, 20 years ago. Uh and everything. I'm just kind of surprised that they don't push that. And I should. And truly when I was working actively with the wastewater field one of my our effluent order the water leaving the facility for those aren't familiar. Effluent is out influences in. So when the facilities effluent needed to get actually disinfected, we use gas chlorine. So we had in the quantity that put us in a risk management plan. So in dealing with the risk management plan and and then I had other water quality and sludge samples and all that stuff to do. I really started thinking um I should be doing disaster management and I went to teach us for this one, the T. E. X. The texas engineering the extension. So I got my my tics training in this like 94 96 or something like one of the first years I started in the business. I decided to do this and I was so glad I did it. I really was glad I did it. Yeah. And no. Well the thing that bothers me, you know, I'm so during the gulf oil spill for example, I trained my company trained Uh somewhere around 10-15% of the workforce for that in 2010. And uh now and they were legitimate training. So I mean I up until recently I had him in the corner all the videotapes. I videotaped every session. And uh Now and you know, we have all these people going through 40 hour has gone for training respiratory protection training, you name it all these workers. And then Covid hits. That's what all of that has to offer. And hazmat training almost supplies directly to the Covid situation. Then you find out how many people were, were not listening during those training glasses. I think it's a little bit of an indictment of our industry. I have someone others on here that in our industry of our, that we're not at the forefront here. Right. What was the quality of training all these years if we have to explain people the difference between a mask and a respirator? Yeah. Tradition. Uh, so, and everybody loved the PP word then to write the whole country. No one knew what it was. Yeah. Uh, this is, I'm actually after I get done with you. I'm doing a podcast tonight and this is basically what it is. I'll give you a sneak preview here. I don't know when rare this, I'll give you a sneak preview. All right. So I had to go for my annual medical checkup. You know, I'm married and everything and you know, the wives are really big on annual checkups. Yes. Uh, I go into uh, my doctor yesterday, right? I get the blood work the day before I go to a very large medical practice. There's something like 500 doctors right into chain. Right? Very good chain. And very good doctors, by the way, let me say that up front. So I go in and I'm used to. Okay, I'm fully vaccinated, but okay. But even with all the breakthrough stuff going on and where it's like a slim shady type of environment or I'm going into like a medical place for sick people. No problem. I'll put on a mess, however, I don't put on a mask I put on and I got a whole supply of them. The FFT to uh filtering face piece respirator. Right? Well, the european model, I have the american model in 95 I have the kn 95 but I prefer this one because it's the most comfortable. I feel like that. The best deal out of all the ones I have. So I can I wear it? And I go in. Okay. We're prepared. What? Safety as a pod Conklin and everybody else on our networks. Yeah. Present controls. Not the or safeguards. Can't say controls anymore because you'll get upset. But guards No, not the absence of incidents. So, you know, we have vaccines. You have medical. Okay? We have an album journey where you have uh face coverings. We have that. We're doing the temperature screening. We're doing all that much. Okay, go in. And I have an ff this respirator on it. It's a respirator. And oh, hello. Jim. How you doing, blah blah blah. They know me. Okay. Uh we got to take your temperature. Okay. Great. Okay. Have you had any Covid? Yeah, I'm good. I haven't been sick, mama. Okay, great, can you please put this on that? You put on one of these imitation surgical masks for like maybe a quarter apiece. Uh can you put that on? I said, let me get this straight. You're putting, you're asking I have a rated respirator on no valve. Yeah, because they don't like the valve. Don't like the valves. Okay. Because okay, viral said, okay, great. And, and you want me to put this on and I'm getting less protection even with a lot of production get from the master computer. I said, do you think that that's a good uh, and I'm not being hostile. This is an elderly lady doing this like a greeter at walmart yell at her. Right? I'm like, you think that that sounds right to you? And she says, well then you can put it on over the top of that. So, you know, it's like, come on. I had this discussion with them last year uh, before I had the podcast. I said, you're telling somebody with my experience and everything and you're acting like I'm an idiot unrest because your doctor said something. So something occurred to me while I'm thinking about, I said, no, I gotta be able to do this, right? Because we're no, because we've shied away from covid commentary. I have at least because of the controversy of it. But I said at 700,000 people dead. I got to say something at this point, right? Uh, so my point is this, right? Why aren't, I'll ask you. All right. You have the same amount of experience I have roughly right? Seeing everything. Right. When was Uh, you're watching CNN Fox News all the alphabet channels and everything else. All these other things. I mean all these channels when can you see a certified industrial hygienist? Certified safety professional or someone else like that on that network saying anything about respiratory protection because we've only had experience in 70 years and this. Well it's really have you. Well it seems to me that the network circuits, what they're looking for is they're looking for answers that are going to be quick and concise and something that they understand. So when they see like a suggestion from C. D. C. It makes it so easy for them to just grab that suggestion. Why not in the C. D. C. But somebody like me or you up there. Ah That's the key. So now it's breaking into the circuit. How can you actually get certified industrial hygienist to show up on these things? And you get one that's fairest story. Concisely lets you go even better. So they don't they they're just going by availability and as soon as they could get the first person on that phone call and generally it's going to be the epidemiologists or the local health because that's the person they know to call. They don't know hey some point I've been doing this since the beginning with us through N. J. C. U. And my private classes right. We couldn't have Classes in person. But if we're going to talk about respirators to better freaking talk about COVID-19 because that's what everybody Is talking about. So in 15 minutes you can explain everything. And the comments I get from people of varying backgrounds right now. Student work release people private company. Why can't they say this in 10 minutes or you just stole this in 10 or 15 minutes? Yeah. Listen to this for a year and a half. All right now here's the question. Mhm. If you're sick, are you going to go to a safety for national? Are you going to go to a doctor? Okay. Got to go to the doctor. Okay. So if you have an issue with respiratory protection, biological safety, why are you going to a doctor and not a safety professional? Yeah. Or why don't they get get on the phone and start calling these manufacturers. That's I always thinking the same exact thing is like you're hearing you're hearing people that are only a little bit aware of respiratory protection but they're they're aware because their users as opposed to people who are instructors and people that read the spec sheets in all those I think like a psycho back to what we talked about at the beginning. I did work on the anthrax cleanups. I can't really go into detail. But one of the things that came out of it was that the government is not prepared for any of this. This was my main thrust that's what I learned one sentence. So I'm kind involved in a lot of different things at high levels in this country political campaigns and everything. And I suppose to some politicians who are who are in charge when I ran for office myself in one ear and out the other. We're not prepared. All right. One of my mentors. All right, Jeffrey Olcott, He passed away. He spoke with down at ground zero. He spoke to all the people in charge down there. You're gonna have a problem here because respirators restaurant there, blah blah blah. And I can name at least two other certified industrial hygienists who did that. And when he ran out the other now, how many people have we had with respiratory issues with that? So there's a problem in our country with this. And I don't think my family, his family was mentioning that Miami mentioning is there because they put it on the internet every year from september 11th. Right? I don't get what what what the thing is in our in our country where we're not going to listen to where the government or individuals are not going to listen to the experts on you. And that's what part of the reason why we have the podcast. The reason why we have safety FM is that were, let's face it, we're the most hated people out there. Why because they hire people who are not qualified to be safety officers is a transient position most of the time and construction, even in general industry. Okay. You sit in the office and I called them and this offends people the doughnuts and coffee people. Here's a some doughnuts and here's a pot of coffee. You sit in there. All right. I'm sorry about you sit in there and uh someone must be listened to us and you sit in there and put up All right, you're sitting there and you whatever do whatever. All right. And that's it. Why is that? You know, we should be out there being the leaders of this. That's what part of why I am doing the podcast. Yeah, it's a little bit bombastic cause it's a little bit controversial pisces. A lot of people off. You can see some of the emails, I don't you know, uh you know, we have to be out there helping the good stuff. People are being the leaders here. Yes. We got to step up for this and that's what we have to do. I did a presentation in january in front of federal contractors on leadership there. Like we said, the leaders are made not born. Yes, yep, yep. That was my thing. And I'm one of these things going to finalize it, but leaders are made not born where you're there are people and I had Children. I didn't realize this until I had Children so much. Kids are natural born Leaders for whatever reason they got All right. You hope that your kids are but no, but most of the time they got to learn it, they learn it from you. They learned it from their teachers. And I had no good leadership examples anywhere in my life until much later in life. And then I started picking up leadership books. They are reading leadership leader as the holy ship, my version of leadership where I tell you to do something and you do it ain't leadership. How do you get people to do what you want to do? And there's a system out there, but you have to realize that sometimes you're never going to be a leader towards people, it's going to be impossible. So you've got to find that leader and influence that leader that they're following. So for I use the example, we have this one trade. Uh, this was in uh late two thousands when they really started to enforce the respirators, not the rest of the fall protection standard. That was from 1998. They really started to enforce it late two thousands for a lot of trades. And the guy says, I'm not gonna just like, can you explain to the guy, Look, that's what you gotta do, what I've been doing this for 30 years. I'm not gonna listen to you, screw you. I I got enough yours for retirement. You're not going to influence that, wow, what are you gonna do? All right? But these are the first people that when they fall, their family is going to yell at you. Well, how come you didn't stop them from working unsafe. Yeah, absolutely. And it always comes back around and if you don't confront and that's one of the things that I always tell new safety people in safety and are wanting to get into the business. I said sometime in your life with safety and I'll see more than sometimes you're going to have to confront and you're going to have to talk to people how you confront and how you talk to people is the key is, you know, that's really you can't shake it. You have to confront. That's your job. But delivery. Well on the other hand, people, one thing that they're going to develop a style. Well, I'm going to be nice. I'm going to do this. I'm going to be firm and yeah, that's great for corporate America. That's great. That's great for human resources. Number one. Number two, human resources are usually never back you up in my experience with that with that approach. All right. So it doesn't work. Well, why can't all the safety guy said this and then we'll make up this is why you have to have things recorded. That's why you have to have things that. Well the safety guy did this this and this was screaming and yelling, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden it's turned back on. You gotta have a document, But the other thing exists. I I had one of the best people I ever hired, she moved on since now. Uh So they gave me a list of references and I knew that one of the references on there that she was giving me, you know, we had all worked together. So I called her up, name was Kathy geiss said Kathy tell me something about this person, can she tell go up to somebody and tell someone to go to hell, I'm looking for somebody like that. That's a great criteria. That's a great criteria for for for first question on the interview on the application will go to hell, you know what she says? She says I kept these phone calls all the time, I never heard of anybody asked that. But the answer in the cases, yes. I said okay, it's a good match for this company sold. She was going with had people out there and were very rough and tumble and she had to have the ability to stand up to these people and say no, you're going to do X, Y and Z or you know, we're working as a controlling uh on behalf of a controlling contractor where you have to now you can't really tell someone what to do now you gotta finesse it, but you can ask a good question like is there a better way of doing this or can you do X, Y and Z. That, but let's talk about this or whatever, but you have to be able to do it. What companies often want is someone who is going to be, I can't get him back to the podcast. You want someone who is civil. You want someone who is servile. There's a big difference. Companies, different vials, safety people. That's what they want. The servile safety people sit in the corner and do nothing. Oh, well I'm not doing that. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. That's what companies want. Sheldon a lot of these and I tell people stay the hell away from them. I won't even take them as a client because I is there too big of a headache? All right. And everything. I'm not seeing being hostile. But you know, hey look, you know, 1910 1926 says this is this is this, this is what it is. You got to go into it. Just like with the First aid CPR requirements, you're on a construction site. You have to have and this is letters from interpretation. This isn't in the regulation lots. Hey, 3-4 minutes response. A medical response available doesn't necessarily mean you have to respond, but it has to be available and you're only allowed to do up to what your training is. All right. You go to the New Jersey and I'm not saying anything against emergency responders. So I'm just saying what it is and they have a list of what half answer response times are there published every month. I said based on your geographic region, the average response time is 25 minutes. Right? All right. Get out of our less than nine by the way. So you have to go what you have to have some first aid cpR training, but we're not going to happen. Well, they're in violation of regulation. I don't know what let's regular fi this How are you going to do this? Right. And usually what they do is they are not. And then you find out that they're even afraid to make that requirement for their people, even uh for employment and none of their people they can't compel or talking to date conversation cpR training. So what do you think happens? They hire us demand the job now when you're uh and that was like great, great information there. A whole bunch of good information there. Uh For you since you have you've gone through the consulting side and now you're uh have been hiring people. When did you make the first decision to say? All right. I can't scale just with me. When when did you make that decision? And was there a driver something I pushed you that says all right, we need help. Uh One of your working 12 hours a day. And when you have very menial jobs that have to get done that it doesn't make any sense for you to do. So for example, I know somebody who was not in the safety business of different industry. His business failed because he was out there doing all the accounting for the business. I guess what? I have a bookkeeper name's Tracy. Most wonderful person I ever hired. Why? Because I was filing taxes in november every year or october six month extension. All right. When I got married, my wife said two things are going to do. You're going to stop paying yourself as a self employed. You're going to have to go through a payroll system, otherwise you're really getting married because their taxes are going to be a nightmare every year. And I know my wife and you have an idea what she does. She's very upfront. I I can tell you stories that are not safe for very upfront. So what you're gonna do is that a health center? Best friends? An accountant or one of her best friends is an account with its two best friends. Right? And uh so uh I hired that I had to get an accountant. You have uh your job as a business owner is to leave the business. Even if you're a one person show you kind of leave the business. You've got to get more work and you got to make sure the work gets done. And you got to build uh accounting. You've got to have the best accountant or bookkeeper you could get and she handles everything that was my first hire. Second hire was my friend bob. All right, who was in another business and he wanted to start doing something different. So, he's made a career and safety and he still works for me. Uh Just you know, again I say menial jobs. You know, safety person, You're gonna have menial jobs, you take care of this. Uh And then I take care of that. And then before you know, you lined up more work than you have to hire more people to cover that. And it's more or less. I'm told I'm not an M. B. A. I'm told like a lawyer like a lawyer or law firm. Uh Most of these things are a credential person or a pick a person in charge. Then you have three or four people you're supervising uh with that. And uh 10 1919. Are you going to be a w. 19? No, no. Everything's or everyone is paid as a regular employee W. W. Two. Excuse me? Uh So nobody w nine is when you ask for the uh remember. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know how I remember that. But I do. Yeah, it's the 99 miscellaneous because everybody is a regular employee. I don't want any issues. You know, I don't know. I want everything clean. I don't do anything that you know, you're very apt to make a mistake if you're in 10 99. Very, very common to make a mistake. And it's unintentional. So, that's why everything is done as a W. Two. All right. So, and all the things that I was thinking about is for for truly getting your business started. A lot of people are looking and listening to this and thinking, oh, I can't wait till I get to where he is. And and being able to do many things with not only your agency, but then the clients and all that. So what do you think was was maybe one good tip for success and one good tip that you learned from from a knock. And you said, all right, we're not doing that one anymore. So, you've got a tip for the first one is what I just mentioned. Get the best accountant. You can uh and everything. Make sure if you're not I can do accounting, but I'm that's not me. Alright. You hire that's the number one thing because it's like this. You make one mistake on your income tax. All right. And basically I might use a roundabout numbers. So please don't anybody go to court with basically, for every $10,000 you owe them and taxes, it's a little bit under $300 a month Interest. And up to like $300 a month failure to pay penalty. So these charges end up costing you, a forensic accountant runs about $400 and $800 an hour to strengthen things out. So any time that you cheat on your taxes or anything anymore. It's going to cost you more. So I consider it like an avoidance cost transactional costs to have good people on that. All right, I'm not I don't mean to scare anybody, but I want to be 100% of. Thank God. I know. And I've been telling them, you know, here I am with 140 episodes or somewhere around there and they've heard it several times, you got to do it right. You gotta do it right. Do do everything ethically do everything above boards. Someone pushes you around. You go. You know, if you're not sure what to do, what's the ethical thing to do and that's what we're gonna do, even if it costs you because eventually that's gonna cancel itself out. When do you know to cut Beta is I think your second question, yeah, come through a situation. How do you know the cut bait? Well, or maybe something that you felt that this was a hard lesson to learn and you want to share it. The hard lesson to learn is this uh you got to know who your friends are and who your enemies are. All right. That's more important sometimes to know who your enemies are and who your friends are and that's what you gotta be careful of it. I'll add one thing. I'll do a favor for anybody. If I can help you add, I'm gonna help you out. But be very, very, very careful who you ask your favors of because like the old saying goes, I think it was in poor Richard's almanac. Benjamin franklin franklin once once you do you ask someone for a favor they own they owe you. You'll never end up paying back for that city. So with some people. So very care always. I I'll help anybody out. If I can help you out, I'm gonna help you out. Don't even you know it's not about money. I'll try to help you out if I can kind of be careful about pathological altruism where you're helping people out to your veteran but I'll help you out if I can. But be very careful. I had a client get into a real bad situation because they kept on asking for favors from at a facility before you know it, How did they get twisted around? It got twisted around that they can't do anything themselves. They always have favors and that eventually impacted their business and extremely negative. Right to the point where they don't exist anymore. So uh you know, so be careful with the favors. Yeah. Right. However I have a favor, I make sure it's a big one and I make sure they ain't gonna come back to bite anybody and I don't do anything that's gonna get anybody else potentially in trouble because we all have families. We all have situations, we all have things I would never intentionally do something to hurt another person doesn't happen yet because they're dealing with things all the time should happens and you apologize and you move on and try to resolve it. But you got to never put anybody else at risk really within business. It's bad karma. You know, uh, you're selling a bad seed, uh, if you do that. Yeah, right. So you're trying to sow good seeds, right? Like a good seat, you know, and uh not be positive as much as possible and everything, nobody wants to be around and down. And that's a part of our industry to were very pessimistic. We're very cynical of it. Yeah. Because we're trained that way. We're always looking for gloom. We're always looking for hazards. Retrained for that, that situation the other day. Jim, I can't find anything wrong to take a picture of. I said, well then you should thank God. I said, make sure something good things that are happening. You get the good things that are happening, which you should be doing all along anyway. Oh, I'm allowed to do that. Yeah. You're allowed to document good things happening. Absolutely. Tell everybody how to get to you. Well, we're available that safety wars. You can throw that into the search engine and you come to our podcast on Youtube jim puzzle. Safety wars. Well, he isn't peter. What's an Oscar. It's an eco essence to the era L as in lima. Jim puzzles. Safety wars. Believe it or not, it is a registered trademark by the way, by the way, I went to uh recent uh sci fi convention Emily swallow from the Mandalorian. It was all right. And she sees the shirt, you know, I got the safety word shirt on, she says, safety words tell me that. She says, and I said, I got a trademark. She said, I don't know how that happened, but you gotta trademark good because someone will steal it. So it's all trademarks. So, safety words dot com, it's the other one. It's like Star Wars safety uh that's our website and, you know, give me a call, you can drop me a line at jim at safety wars dot com and now we can talk, we can do whatever we do business together. It'll be great. Oh, yeah, Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being part of the show of sharing some knowledge and stories. And that is truly one of the things that I love when, when we get safety consultant season, safety consultants to tell the people who were trying to get to where you are, what it's like, what it's really like. And you did that today. Thank you. All right, Thanks a lot. Sheldon. Mhm. This episode has been powered by safety FM. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast or broadcast. Are those of the hosting its guests and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within the past hour are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based on very limited and dated open source information, assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast or broadcast may be reproduced, stored within a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise, without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast or broadcast Sheldon brightness.